Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 10:56:59PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > > Well software raid is defined as raid that does the calculations in > > software (on your cpu), while hardware raid does the calculations using > > custom circuitry or a dedicated cpu running some software (firmware). > > > > If I have to waste cpu time on raid, I at least want to be able to see > > the code running on my cpu and perhaps be able to improve on it. That > > is the difference. > > Ummm, but with true h/w RAID, you are *not* wasting main CPU time > on it. On "enterprise systems", the SCSI card itself doesn't even > know that it's talking to a RAID set, since the SCSI cards connect > to a "RAID controller", which the SCSI disks also plug into. Exactly. Hardware raid is great. It's the proprietary cards that use software raid I don't like wasting my cpu on. Len Sorensen
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 23:28 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 08:28:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > > Isn't *all* real h/w RAID "just secret proprietary software" on > > the RAID controller? Whether it be in flash or an EEPROM, real > > h/w RAID controllers have a dedicated (usually specialized) CPU > > for handling the RAID calculations, SCSI commands, RAM cache, etc. > > > > Thats why when you call up IBM, HP or Sun with a disk-related issue, > > they ask you if your SCSI cards & RAID controllers are at the latest > > ROM version. > > Well software raid is defined as raid that does the calculations in > software (on your cpu), while hardware raid does the calculations using > custom circuitry or a dedicated cpu running some software (firmware). > > If I have to waste cpu time on raid, I at least want to be able to see > the code running on my cpu and perhaps be able to improve on it. That > is the difference. Ummm, but with true h/w RAID, you are *not* wasting main CPU time on it. On "enterprise systems", the SCSI card itself doesn't even know that it's talking to a RAID set, since the SCSI cards connect to a "RAID controller", which the SCSI disks also plug into. A good example of this is/was the DEC/Compaq HSZ controllers. These are 1-Up rack-mounted computers dedicated only to managing SCSI disks in RAID configurations. 512MB battery-backed RAM, the ability to join with another controller in a dual-redundant mode (so that you had an effective 1GB of cache). I don't know how things worked in Digital Unix, but under VMS, you connect to it via SET HOST/HSZ to configure it. You could also plug a VT-220 terminal directly into it. Very convenient for initial configur- ation. Oh, and it worked with shared-disk VMS clustering. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B "Never for the sake of peace and quiet deny your convictions." Dag Hammarskjold signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 08:28:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > Isn't *all* real h/w RAID "just secret proprietary software" on > the RAID controller? Whether it be in flash or an EEPROM, real > h/w RAID controllers have a dedicated (usually specialized) CPU > for handling the RAID calculations, SCSI commands, RAM cache, etc. > > Thats why when you call up IBM, HP or Sun with a disk-related issue, > they ask you if your SCSI cards & RAID controllers are at the latest > ROM version. Well software raid is defined as raid that does the calculations in software (on your cpu), while hardware raid does the calculations using custom circuitry or a dedicated cpu running some software (firmware). If I have to waste cpu time on raid, I at least want to be able to see the code running on my cpu and perhaps be able to improve on it. That is the difference. Len Sorensen
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 11:09:55PM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > so what you 2 are saying is that bsically a Sil3114 is as good or bad as any > other software raid with the exception that it can start a boot process while > on the other hand being proprietory ?? > > If I create a Software raid with f.e. Debian and I decide to Dual boot into > Mandrake, Suse ... whatever should that work ? Linux software raid is entirely portable between distributions, although you may have to tell each distribution to look for software raid (the partition type set to raid autodetect helps of course, but does nothing unless raid is looked for). Part of the bad of using a proprietary software raid is that you need a driver that is binary only, and doesn't come with standard kernels and may not even be available or compileable (if it has a wrapper) on the kernel you want. Software raid on the other hand is controller independant and should work with any kernel that has software raid support. Booting is slightly more involved although not very. Len Sorensen
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Nils Valentin wrote: Hi Johan, was that ahint for using the 2410SA from Adaptec or can I use the 2410SA driver with the SiI3114 ? It was a reply to Lennart Sorensen's comment: >>> Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open >>> source drivers that I am aware off. But I can recommend the Adaptec 2410SA (hardware raid) as I'm using it myself. Haven't had any problems with that card. You cannot use the Adaptec drivers with the SiI3114. Totally different chipsets are being used. /Johan - Symbian Software Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with registered number 4190020 and registered office at 2-6 Boundary Row, Southwark, London, SE1 8HP, UK. This message is intended only for use by the named addressee and may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete the message and any attachments accompanying it immediately. Neither Symbian nor any of its subsidiaries accepts liability for any corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses occurring to this message in transit or for any message sent by its employees which is not in compliance with Symbian corporate policy.
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Hi Johan, was that ahint for using the 2410SA from Adaptec or can I use the 2410SA driver with the SiI3114 ? Best regards Nils Valentin On Tuesday 26 October 2004 00:12, Johan Groth wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04:48AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > >>just read your reply once more. Just for the records: Iam looking for > >> hardware raid. I already ahev Suse Linux up and running and actually > >> just want debian to be able to access the drives the same way (after the > >> reboot). That is (without the hardware raid) basically a typical dual > >> boot setup. > >> > >>Shouldnt there be a Driver for the Sil3114 Controller ? I know that Tyan > >> makes the drivers for Suse and Redhat. I was hoping that perhaps a nice > >> driver developer is reading this and spend a few hours of devoted > >> motivation to get this done ;-) > >> > >>Best regards > > > > A SiS3114 is NOT hardware raid. It is software, just secret proprietary > > software. If you want hardware raid with open source drivers, you have > > to get a 3ware card or a scsi raid card. Those are the only choices at > > the moment. Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open > > source drivers that I am aware off. > > The driver for Adaptec 2410SA (SATA raid PCI-66/64bit) are open source. >They are included in the kernel. > > /Johan > > > - > Symbian Software Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with > registered number 4190020 and registered office at 2-6 Boundary Row, > Southwark, London, SE1 8HP, UK. This message is intended only for use by > the named addressee and may contain privileged and/or confidential > information. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, > copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this > message in error please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete the > message and any attachments accompanying it immediately. Neither Symbian > nor any of its subsidiaries accepts liability for any corruption, > interception, amendment, tampering or viruses occurring to this message in > transit or for any message sent by its employees which is not in compliance > with Symbian corporate policy. -- kind regards Nils Valentin Tokyo/Japan http://www.be-known-online.com/mysql/
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04:48AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: just read your reply once more. Just for the records: Iam looking for hardware raid. I already ahev Suse Linux up and running and actually just want debian to be able to access the drives the same way (after the reboot). That is (without the hardware raid) basically a typical dual boot setup. Shouldnt there be a Driver for the Sil3114 Controller ? I know that Tyan makes the drivers for Suse and Redhat. I was hoping that perhaps a nice driver developer is reading this and spend a few hours of devoted motivation to get this done ;-) Best regards A SiS3114 is NOT hardware raid. It is software, just secret proprietary software. If you want hardware raid with open source drivers, you have to get a 3ware card or a scsi raid card. Those are the only choices at the moment. Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open source drivers that I am aware off. The driver for Adaptec 2410SA (SATA raid PCI-66/64bit) are open source. They are included in the kernel. /Johan - Symbian Software Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with registered number 4190020 and registered office at 2-6 Boundary Row, Southwark, London, SE1 8HP, UK. This message is intended only for use by the named addressee and may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete the message and any attachments accompanying it immediately. Neither Symbian nor any of its subsidiaries accepts liability for any corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses occurring to this message in transit or for any message sent by its employees which is not in compliance with Symbian corporate policy.
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 11:09:55PM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > so what you 2 are saying is that bsically a Sil3114 is as good or > bad as any other software raid with the exception that it can start > a boot process while on the other hand being proprietory ?? Yes, that's about it. Just two points: If I understand it correctly, the SiI3114 chip doesn't know anything about the boot process -- that piece of functionality is dependent on and provided by the BIOS of the card (or motherboard). Note also that it's SiI (capital i), not Sil (lower case L). > If I create a Software raid with f.e. Debian and I decide to Dual boot into > Mandrake, Suse ... whatever should that work ? Yes, provided the other OSes know about the software RAID array you've created (so you need the kernel support, the user-space tools, and whatever user-space configuration is necessary). Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 1C335860 from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- I'm all for giving people enough rope to shoot themselves in --- the foot -- Andreas Dilger signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Hi Lennart and Hugo, so what you 2 are saying is that bsically a Sil3114 is as good or bad as any other software raid with the exception that it can start a boot process while on the other hand being proprietory ?? If I create a Software raid with f.e. Debian and I decide to Dual boot into Mandrake, Suse ... whatever should that work ? Best regards Nils Valentin On Monday 25 October 2004 01:58, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04:48AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > > just read your reply once more. Just for the records: Iam looking for > > hardware raid. I already ahev Suse Linux up and running and actually just > > want debian to be able to access the drives the same way (after the > > reboot). That is (without the hardware raid) basically a typical dual > > boot setup. > > > > Shouldnt there be a Driver for the Sil3114 Controller ? I know that Tyan > > makes the drivers for Suse and Redhat. I was hoping that perhaps a nice > > driver developer is reading this and spend a few hours of devoted > > motivation to get this done ;-) > > > > Best regards > > A SiS3114 is NOT hardware raid. It is software, just secret proprietary > software. If you want hardware raid with open source drivers, you have > to get a 3ware card or a scsi raid card. Those are the only choices at > the moment. Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open > source drivers that I am aware off. > > Lennart Sorensen -- kind regards Nils Valentin Tokyo/Japan http://www.be-known-online.com/mysql/
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 08:28:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 12:58 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04:48AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > [snip] > > > > A SiS3114 is NOT hardware raid. It is software, just secret proprietary > > software. If you want hardware raid with open source drivers, you have > > to get a 3ware card or a scsi raid card. Those are the only choices at > > the moment. Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open > > source drivers that I am aware off. > > Isn't *all* real h/w RAID "just secret proprietary software" on > the RAID controller? Whether it be in flash or an EEPROM, real > h/w RAID controllers have a dedicated (usually specialized) CPU > for handling the RAID calculations, SCSI commands, RAM cache, etc. > > Thats why when you call up IBM, HP or Sun with a disk-related issue, > they ask you if your SCSI cards & RAID controllers are at the latest > ROM version. THe difference in this case being that the SiI3114-based cards _don't_ have an on-board CPU to offload the RAID processing overhead. Therefore, the host CPU has to perform the RAID processing, and the load on the system bus correspondingly greater as well. This is what is commonly known as "software RAID". The BIOS on the card is sufficient to be able to read a particular (proprietary) header on the disks and start the boot process from them. It may also contain a configuration tool to set up this header. Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 1C335860 from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- Geek, n.: Circus sideshow performer specialising in the --- eating of live animals. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 12:58 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04:48AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: [snip] > > A SiS3114 is NOT hardware raid. It is software, just secret proprietary > software. If you want hardware raid with open source drivers, you have > to get a 3ware card or a scsi raid card. Those are the only choices at > the moment. Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open > source drivers that I am aware off. Isn't *all* real h/w RAID "just secret proprietary software" on the RAID controller? Whether it be in flash or an EEPROM, real h/w RAID controllers have a dedicated (usually specialized) CPU for handling the RAID calculations, SCSI commands, RAM cache, etc. Thats why when you call up IBM, HP or Sun with a disk-related issue, they ask you if your SCSI cards & RAID controllers are at the latest ROM version. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B "Would you mind not firing on the thermonuclear weapons?" A great line, from a *great* movie: Broken Arrow signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04:48AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > just read your reply once more. Just for the records: Iam looking for > hardware > raid. I already ahev Suse Linux up and running and actually just want debian > to be able to access the drives the same way (after the reboot). That is > (without the hardware raid) basically a typical dual boot setup. > > Shouldnt there be a Driver for the Sil3114 Controller ? I know that Tyan > makes > the drivers for Suse and Redhat. I was hoping that perhaps a nice driver > developer is reading this and spend a few hours of devoted motivation to get > this done ;-) > > Best regards A SiS3114 is NOT hardware raid. It is software, just secret proprietary software. If you want hardware raid with open source drivers, you have to get a 3ware card or a scsi raid card. Those are the only choices at the moment. Other hardware ide/sata raid cards exist, but not with open source drivers that I am aware off. Lennart Sorensen
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Hi Lennart, just read your reply once more. Just for the records: Iam looking for hardware raid. I already ahev Suse Linux up and running and actually just want debian to be able to access the drives the same way (after the reboot). That is (without the hardware raid) basically a typical dual boot setup. Shouldnt there be a Driver for the Sil3114 Controller ? I know that Tyan makes the drivers for Suse and Redhat. I was hoping that perhaps a nice driver developer is reading this and spend a few hours of devoted motivation to get this done ;-) Best regards Nils Valentin On Saturday 23 October 2004 01:47, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:36:05AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > > I am trying to setup a Opteron box. I am having a hard time to setup Raid > > 1 on the sata drives connected to the sil3114 controller. > > > > The same system works under Suse Linux 9.0 perfectly fine. Now I try to > > make it a dual boot machine and get Debian on the box as well. I am using > > the Debian netinstall image (sid-amd64-netinst.iso) The Debian Installer > > seems to be fine until I get to the point harddisk configuration were it > > sees only the 2 sata drives separately. > > > > That should basically tell me that the sil3114 driver is either not > > included or not working the way I expect it to be. > > > > Does anybody have any ideas ? > > Feel free to leave your rant ;-) > > Last I looked at it I thought the proprietary software raid driver for > the 3114 was binary only and hence only available for certain kernels > and certainly not 64bit. Do I remember wrong? > > Besides why do you want proprietary software raid when you could use > open standard linux md software raid (which is faster too in general). > > Lennart Sorensen -- kind regards Nils Valentin Tokyo/Japan http://www.be-known-online.com/mysql/
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:03:06 +0900, Nils Valentin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Lemmart, > > of course I want to use an open source driver if available (sorry if I didnt > mention that) > > Which one do you suggest ? > Does it come with debian ? the sil3114 is proprietary software raid - the one that ships in the kernel (libata) is of beta-level quality. You're better off using linux software raid, or if your budget allows it, invest in a true hardware raid solution. -- Paolo Alexis Falcone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Hi Lemmart, of course I want to use an open source driver if available (sorry if I didnt mention that) Which one do you suggest ? Does it come with debian ? Best regards Nils Valentin On Saturday 23 October 2004 01:47, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:36:05AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > > I am trying to setup a Opteron box. I am having a hard time to setup Raid > > 1 on the sata drives connected to the sil3114 controller. > > > > The same system works under Suse Linux 9.0 perfectly fine. Now I try to > > make it a dual boot machine and get Debian on the box as well. I am using > > the Debian netinstall image (sid-amd64-netinst.iso) The Debian Installer > > seems to be fine until I get to the point harddisk configuration were it > > sees only the 2 sata drives separately. > > > > That should basically tell me that the sil3114 driver is either not > > included or not working the way I expect it to be. > > > > Does anybody have any ideas ? > > Feel free to leave your rant ;-) > > Last I looked at it I thought the proprietary software raid driver for > the 3114 was binary only and hence only available for certain kernels > and certainly not 64bit. Do I remember wrong? > > Besides why do you want proprietary software raid when you could use > open standard linux md software raid (which is faster too in general). > > Lennart Sorensen -- kind regards Nils Valentin Tokyo/Japan http://www.be-known-online.com/mysql/
Re: K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:36:05AM +0900, Nils Valentin wrote: > I am trying to setup a Opteron box. I am having a hard time to setup Raid 1 > on > the sata drives connected to the sil3114 controller. > > The same system works under Suse Linux 9.0 perfectly fine. Now I try to make > it a dual boot machine and get Debian on the box as well. I am using the > Debian netinstall image (sid-amd64-netinst.iso) The Debian Installer seems to > be fine until I get to the point harddisk configuration were it sees only the > 2 sata drives separately. > > That should basically tell me that the sil3114 driver is either not included > or not working the way I expect it to be. > > Does anybody have any ideas ? > Feel free to leave your rant ;-) Last I looked at it I thought the proprietary software raid driver for the 3114 was binary only and hence only available for certain kernels and certainly not 64bit. Do I remember wrong? Besides why do you want proprietary software raid when you could use open standard linux md software raid (which is faster too in general). Lennart Sorensen
K8S Pro (S2882UG3NR) + Sil 3114 (Raid 1) + Sarge
Hi eveybody on the list, I am trying to setup a Opteron box. I am having a hard time to setup Raid 1 on the sata drives connected to the sil3114 controller. The same system works under Suse Linux 9.0 perfectly fine. Now I try to make it a dual boot machine and get Debian on the box as well. I am using the Debian netinstall image (sid-amd64-netinst.iso) The Debian Installer seems to be fine until I get to the point harddisk configuration were it sees only the 2 sata drives separately. That should basically tell me that the sil3114 driver is either not included or not working the way I expect it to be. Does anybody have any ideas ? Feel free to leave your rant ;-) -- kind regards Nils Valentin Tokyo/Japan http://www.be-known-online.com/mysql/
