Re: screen freezes, ooffice with *.ppt, ATI, and xorg; was, Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:11:53 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 10:33:40AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: I rebooted with xorg.conf disabled, and X autoconfigured to a higher resolution than I have been able to get before, so something has changed, for sure. I will carry on for a while, see if my crashes still occur, and report back. What do you mean by rebooted with xorg.conf disabled? Just rename/remove the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file? Neat! autoconfiguration really works! That's as opposed to it being intended to work. Autoconfiguration on my system does not work (v7.3-7), at the first sight being related to the kernel framebuffer. On all systems this option is disabled but the XORG auto detection tries to activate it and because of this it fails. Cheers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: screen freezes, ooffice with *.ppt, ATI, and xorg; was, Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Teodor wrote: Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:43:07 +0200 From: Teodor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: screen freezes, ooffice with *.ppt, ATI, and xorg; was, Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:42:05 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:11:53 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 10:33:40AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: I rebooted with xorg.conf disabled, and X autoconfigured to a higher resolution than I have been able to get before, so something has changed, for sure. I will carry on for a while, see if my crashes still occur, and report back. What do you mean by rebooted with xorg.conf disabled? Just rename/remove the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file? I renamed xorg.conf to xorg.conf.donotuse, and rebooted. When the machine came back up, a splash labeled autoconfiguration displayed across the monitor, while the screen resolution changed around rapidly. When I logged in, my desktop was at a higher resolution than I had seen previously, with the windows I had left open at logout shrunk to about 2/3 of their former physical screen coverage. Regardless of whether it fixes the problem of the freezing system, the higher resolution is a real improvement. However, I woke up this morning, and the screen came to life, just like before I dist-upgraded to lenny, so things look promising on that front, too. Don Neat! autoconfiguration really works! That's as opposed to it being intended to work. Autoconfiguration on my system does not work (v7.3-7), at the first sight being related to the kernel framebuffer. On all systems this option is disabled but the XORG auto detection tries to activate it and because of this it fails. Cheers -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
screen freezes, ooffice with *.ppt, ATI, and xorg; was, Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
I rebooted with xorg.conf disabled, and X autoconfigured to a higher resolution than I have been able to get before, so something has changed, for sure. I will carry on for a while, see if my crashes still occur, and report back. Thanks very much, Don On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:38:34 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 18:05:20 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 12:24:54PM -0500, Andrew Syrewicze wrote: Open your Xorg configuration in a text editor. (/etc/X11/xorg.conf) In the Device section. You'll see Driver ATI for x.org driver Or Driver fglrx for ATI binary driver. I thought the new xorg didn't need an xorg.conf file, though it uses it if you have one. Maybe renaming it temprarily to xorg.conf.donotuse and rebooting would enable xorg to autoconfigure and maybe work differently? -- hendrik -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: screen freezes, ooffice with *.ppt, ATI, and xorg; was, Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 10:33:40AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: I rebooted with xorg.conf disabled, and X autoconfigured to a higher resolution than I have been able to get before, so something has changed, for sure. I will carry on for a while, see if my crashes still occur, and report back. Thanks very much, Don Neat! autoconfiguration really works! That's as opposed to it being intended to work. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
It's very workable. I was able to Get Lenny working great with minimal headache. I'm even using ATI drivers and xinerama for dual monitors, and it doesn't give me much problem. The only problem I see is X sometime crashes when I exit my session, but I haven't checked to see yet if that's a bug or a problem with the binary ATI driver. I also had to do a little foot work to get the wireless card working flawlessly in my laptop, but alas, we can blame proprietary windows drivers for that. =) Other than that Lenny Works great in my opinion. Great Distro!! -Original Message- From: Karl Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:15 AM To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: lenny amd64 for Desktop Like to get some feedback from anyone running lenny on amd64. Is it workable? I'm currently running etch as a desk top - how well is lenny doing? Is there any estimate when it will be released? Guestimates? Any reasons not to upgrade? Karl Schmidt EMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th StreetPh (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 What happens if one get scared half to death twice? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
I have been running lenny as a desktop OS for about a
month. I had an effortless upgrade from etch. I like it
very well, with the following exceptions.
When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch
with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I
lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor
turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse
wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot.
I do not know what is causing it.
Open office has crashed X several times when editing MS
Powerpoint files. No other application seems to be a
problem.
In all these cases, ctl-alt-f{1,2,...} gets no response,
and ctl-alt-bkspc and ctl-alt-del are ignored.
Don
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Andrew Syrewicze wrote:
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 07:48:53 -0500
From: Andrew Syrewicze [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Karl Schmidt' [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-amd64@lists.debian.org
Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:49:15 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org
It's very workable.
I was able to Get Lenny working great with minimal headache. I'm even using
ATI drivers and xinerama for dual monitors, and it doesn't give me much
problem. The only problem I see is X sometime crashes when I exit my
session, but I haven't checked to see yet if that's a bug or a problem with
the binary ATI driver.
I also had to do a little foot work to get the wireless card working
flawlessly in my laptop, but alas, we can blame proprietary windows drivers
for that. =)
Other than that Lenny Works great in my opinion. Great Distro!!
-Original Message-
From: Karl Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:15 AM
To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org
Subject: lenny amd64 for Desktop
Like to get some feedback from anyone running lenny on amd64.
Is it workable?
I'm currently running etch as a desk top - how well is lenny doing?
Is there any estimate when it will be released? Guestimates?
Any reasons not to upgrade?
Karl Schmidt EMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com
3209 West 9th StreetPh (785) 841-3089
Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434
What happens if one get scared half to death twice?
--
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 11:15:12PM -0600, Karl Schmidt wrote: Like to get some feedback from anyone running lenny on amd64. I have just upgraded from a (short-lived) etch installation to lenny. Is it workable? Definetly! I'm currently running etch as a desk top - how well is lenny doing? I upgraded to lenny in order to get the nv driver that would recognize my nvidia 8600 card - I simply could not get it to play with etch. Haven't got around to plugging it in after the upgrade, so I can't say if it works. Maybe this weekend... Any reasons not to upgrade? I had problems with KDE's fish protocol (file browsing etc over ssh). Solved them by staying at an older kernel. Expect those to be ironed out soon. That was all. I had recently installed etch, coming from 32-bit mode. The upgrade was as painless as you could hope. Change your sources, apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade. No fuzz. Been happy with it the past few days. Still need to sort out some things that need to be run 32-bit (flash, java?, video codecs for xine, ...), but those problems were the same on etch. (anyone have a good howto that is up to date with lenny? Most I find on the net are somewhat older) Regards Heikki -- Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot) dk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
Section Device Identifier ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] Driver ati BusID PCI:1:0:0 EndSection On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Andrew Syrewicze wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:24:54 -0500 From: Andrew Syrewicze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Don Montgomery' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:25:09 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Open your Xorg configuration in a text editor. (/etc/X11/xorg.conf) In the Device section. You'll see Driver ATI for x.org driver Or Driver fglrx for ATI binary driver. -Original Message- From: Don Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:35 PM To: Andrew Syrewicze Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Andrew Syrewicze wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:12:30 -0500 From: Andrew Syrewicze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Don Montgomery' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:12:51 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Are you using the Binary ATI driver?? Or the X.org opensource driver??? how do you tell??? -Original Message- From: Don Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:19 PM To: Heikki Levanto Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop video card info: ATI Radeon 9200 AGP-9200S-TD2W-128D AGP 8X 0340005513; DML-1628 rv280/M9+ Radeon 9200 lspci ... 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) Don On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:44:58 +0100 From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:45:10 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:25AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot. I do not know what is causing it. Which graphics card do you have? And which driver? The symptoms sound much like what I had with Etch, Nvidia 8600, Nvidia's closed driver - except that it happened immediately upon start of X. Often (but not always) accompanied with a kernel panic in the nvidia module. I will try with my card on lenny, as soon as I get the time. -H -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 12:24:54PM -0500, Andrew Syrewicze wrote: Open your Xorg configuration in a text editor. (/etc/X11/xorg.conf) In the Device section. You'll see Driver ATI for x.org driver Or Driver fglrx for ATI binary driver. I thought the new xorg didn't need an xorg.conf file, though it uses it if you have one. Maybe renaming it temprarily to xorg.conf.donotuse and rebooting would enable xorg to autoconfigure and maybe work differently? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Andrew Syrewicze wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:12:30 -0500 From: Andrew Syrewicze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Don Montgomery' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:12:51 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Are you using the Binary ATI driver?? Or the X.org opensource driver??? how do you tell??? -Original Message- From: Don Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:19 PM To: Heikki Levanto Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop video card info: ATI Radeon 9200 AGP-9200S-TD2W-128D AGP 8X 0340005513; DML-1628 rv280/M9+ Radeon 9200 lspci ... 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) Don On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:44:58 +0100 From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:45:10 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:25AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot. I do not know what is causing it. Which graphics card do you have? And which driver? The symptoms sound much like what I had with Etch, Nvidia 8600, Nvidia's closed driver - except that it happened immediately upon start of X. Often (but not always) accompanied with a kernel panic in the nvidia module. I will try with my card on lenny, as soon as I get the time. -H -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:25AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot. I do not know what is causing it. Which graphics card do you have? And which driver? The symptoms sound much like what I had with Etch, Nvidia 8600, Nvidia's closed driver - except that it happened immediately upon start of X. Often (but not always) accompanied with a kernel panic in the nvidia module. I will try with my card on lenny, as soon as I get the time. -H -- Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot) dk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
Open your Xorg configuration in a text editor. (/etc/X11/xorg.conf) In the Device section. You'll see Driver ATI for x.org driver Or Driver fglrx for ATI binary driver. -Original Message- From: Don Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:35 PM To: Andrew Syrewicze Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Andrew Syrewicze wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:12:30 -0500 From: Andrew Syrewicze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Don Montgomery' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:12:51 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Are you using the Binary ATI driver?? Or the X.org opensource driver??? how do you tell??? -Original Message- From: Don Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:19 PM To: Heikki Levanto Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop video card info: ATI Radeon 9200 AGP-9200S-TD2W-128D AGP 8X 0340005513; DML-1628 rv280/M9+ Radeon 9200 lspci ... 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) Don On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:44:58 +0100 From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:45:10 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:25AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot. I do not know what is causing it. Which graphics card do you have? And which driver? The symptoms sound much like what I had with Etch, Nvidia 8600, Nvidia's closed driver - except that it happened immediately upon start of X. Often (but not always) accompanied with a kernel panic in the nvidia module. I will try with my card on lenny, as soon as I get the time. -H -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1176 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 11:15 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1176 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 11:15 PM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: lenny amd64 for Desktop
Are you using the Binary ATI driver?? Or the X.org opensource driver??? -Original Message- From: Don Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:19 PM To: Heikki Levanto Cc: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop video card info: ATI Radeon 9200 AGP-9200S-TD2W-128D AGP 8X 0340005513; DML-1628 rv280/M9+ Radeon 9200 lspci ... 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) Don On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:44:58 +0100 From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:45:10 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:25AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot. I do not know what is causing it. Which graphics card do you have? And which driver? The symptoms sound much like what I had with Etch, Nvidia 8600, Nvidia's closed driver - except that it happened immediately upon start of X. Often (but not always) accompanied with a kernel panic in the nvidia module. I will try with my card on lenny, as soon as I get the time. -H -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1176 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 11:15 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1176 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 11:15 PM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop
video card info: ATI Radeon 9200 AGP-9200S-TD2W-128D AGP 8X 0340005513; DML-1628 rv280/M9+ Radeon 9200 lspci ... 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE] (rev 01) Don On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:44:58 +0100 From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: lenny amd64 for Desktop Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:45:10 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-amd64@lists.debian.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:18:25AM -0600, Don Montgomery wrote: When I leave the machine overnight, it usually loses touch with the monitor. This occurs without regard to whether I lock the screen or not, or whether I leave the monitor turned on or off. No keypress, hotkey combo, or mouse wiggle has any apparent effect, and I have to hard reboot. I do not know what is causing it. Which graphics card do you have? And which driver? The symptoms sound much like what I had with Etch, Nvidia 8600, Nvidia's closed driver - except that it happened immediately upon start of X. Often (but not always) accompanied with a kernel panic in the nvidia module. I will try with my card on lenny, as soon as I get the time. -H -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
