Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-17 Thread Lennart Sorensen
On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 09:07:10AM +0200, Elmar Stellnberger wrote:
>   That is not correct. You can make use of SSE instructions also in
> x86_32/i386 mode.
> 
> I found f.i.:
> https://gcc.gcc.gnu.narkive.com/k0KqaZF2/i386-sse-test-question

Well x86_64 uses it all the time, not just optionally, and twice the
registers still matters.

-- 
Len Sorensen



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-15 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:18:17AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
...
...
> 
> And i you're runnin Lisp programs, you'll definitely want a 32-bit 
> architecture, because Lisp fills memory with addresses.  But you can do that 
> with add-architecture i286.

Typo:  Of course I meant i386.

> 
> -- hendrik
> 



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-15 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:12:23AM +0200, Elmar Stellnberger wrote:
> On 14.04.22 15:45, Levis Yarema wrote:
> > Is there in deed any reason to prefer amd64 over i586 if you have the
> > choice and a machine with 2GB RAM or less, apart from perhaps long term
> > support?
> > 
> 
>   Depends on the application. Encryption and decryption
> requiring the simulation of very larger integers shall be faster
> when being based on 64bit integers. However these are rather
> special purposes.
>   CPU and memory intense applications like the SAT-solver I am
> developing on the other hand will be faster on i386 since a
> memory reference/ pointer only requires 4 byte instead of 8
> byte. Smaller size will yield less memory access cycles and more
> cache hits and that can make an application considerably faster.
> It is the cache that is effectively more important than the
> register layout. Some SAT-solvers like f.i. the DNNF-c2d are
> only available for Linux/i386, not for amd64.
>   Concerning general purpose applications normal integers keep
> to be 32bit even on amd64. Note the sizeof(int). This is also
> for the rationale described above. x86_32 programs can even be
> smaller on disk and in memory. I personally don´t think that
> there is much reason to use amd64 with 2GB ram or less, except
> for bigint calculations.
>   Note however that with a 64bit kernel you can execute programs
> in a 64bit and 32bit chroot while this is impossible with a
> 32bit kernel. This is a reason why many people boot with a 64bit
> kernel but use a 32bit installation. As for certain CPU and
> memory intense programs you can run them as i386 binary even on
> an x86_64 root given that i386 system libararies are installed
> which is possible with dpkg --add-architecture i386.
> 

And i you're runnin Lisp programs, you'll definitely want a 32-bit 
architecture, because Lisp fills memory with addresses.  But you can do that 
with add-architecture i286.

-- hendrik



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-15 Thread Elmar Stellnberger

On 14.04.22 15:45, Levis Yarema wrote:

Is there in deed any reason to prefer amd64 over i586 if you have the
choice and a machine with 2GB RAM or less, apart from perhaps long term
support?



  Depends on the application. Encryption and decryption
requiring the simulation of very larger integers shall be faster
when being based on 64bit integers. However these are rather
special purposes.
  CPU and memory intense applications like the SAT-solver I am
developing on the other hand will be faster on i386 since a
memory reference/ pointer only requires 4 byte instead of 8
byte. Smaller size will yield less memory access cycles and more
cache hits and that can make an application considerably faster.
It is the cache that is effectively more important than the
register layout. Some SAT-solvers like f.i. the DNNF-c2d are
only available for Linux/i386, not for amd64.
  Concerning general purpose applications normal integers keep
to be 32bit even on amd64. Note the sizeof(int). This is also
for the rationale described above. x86_32 programs can even be
smaller on disk and in memory. I personally don´t think that
there is much reason to use amd64 with 2GB ram or less, except
for bigint calculations.
  Note however that with a 64bit kernel you can execute programs
in a 64bit and 32bit chroot while this is impossible with a
32bit kernel. This is a reason why many people boot with a 64bit
kernel but use a 32bit installation. As for certain CPU and
memory intense programs you can run them as i386 binary even on
an x86_64 root given that i386 system libararies are installed
which is possible with dpkg --add-architecture i386.



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-15 Thread Elmar Stellnberger

On 15.04.22 04:50, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 03:45:37PM +0200, Levis Yarema wrote:

Is there in deed any reason to prefer amd64 over i586 if you have the
choice and a machine with 2GB RAM or less, apart from perhaps long term
support?


Twice the registers and sse instructions for fpu rather than x87?



  That is not correct. You can make use of SSE instructions also in 
x86_32/i386 mode.


I found f.i.:
https://gcc.gcc.gnu.narkive.com/k0KqaZF2/i386-sse-test-question



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-14 Thread Lennart Sorensen
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 03:45:37PM +0200, Levis Yarema wrote:
> Is there in deed any reason to prefer amd64 over i586 if you have the
> choice and a machine with 2GB RAM or less, apart from perhaps long term
> support?

Twice the registers and sse instructions for fpu rather than x87?

-- 
Len Sorensen



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-14 Thread Levis Yarema
Is there in deed any reason to prefer amd64 over i586 if you have the
choice and a machine with 2GB RAM or less, apart from perhaps long term
support?

Am Do., 14. Apr. 2022 um 10:38 Uhr schrieb Paul Wise :

> On Tue, 2022-04-12 at 05:59 +0200, Friedhelm Waitzmann wrote:
>
> > And if it is indeed possible, how can I switch from i386 to
> > amd64?  Can this be done with the apt tools?  Then during the
> > migrating some packages will be from amd64 already while others
> > will be still i386.  How does that go right?
>
> If your hardware supports it, you can either reinstall from scratch or
> cross-grade an existing install from i386 to amd64, either using the
> crossgrader tool or more manual methods of doing the same thing.
>
> https://packages.debian.org/crossgrader
> https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading
>
> --
> bye,
> pabs
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
>


Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-14 Thread Elmar Stellnberger

On 14.04.22 10:37, Paul Wise wrote:

On Tue, 2022-04-12 at 05:59 +0200, Friedhelm Waitzmann wrote:


And if it is indeed possible, how can I switch from i386 to
amd64?  Can this be done with the apt tools?  Then during the
migrating some packages will be from amd64 already while others
will be still i386.  How does that go right?


If your hardware supports it, you can either reinstall from scratch or
cross-grade an existing install from i386 to amd64, either using the
crossgrader tool or more manual methods of doing the same thing.

https://packages.debian.org/crossgrader
https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading



  If I had to do it, I would just upgrade to Debian 11. It is most easy 
 to do and you do not need things like a crossgrader tool. Though the 
procedure seems somewhat difficult to me, it is interesting to know that 
something like crossgrading exists and where you find documentation 
about it.




Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-14 Thread Paul Wise
On Tue, 2022-04-12 at 05:59 +0200, Friedhelm Waitzmann wrote:

> And if it is indeed possible, how can I switch from i386 to 
> amd64?  Can this be done with the apt tools?  Then during the 
> migrating some packages will be from amd64 already while others 
> will be still i386.  How does that go right?

If your hardware supports it, you can either reinstall from scratch or
cross-grade an existing install from i386 to amd64, either using the
crossgrader tool or more manual methods of doing the same thing.

https://packages.debian.org/crossgrader
https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-13 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 1:22 PM Marianne Bayoy  wrote:
>
> Unsubscribe

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/unsubscribe



Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-13 Thread Marianne Bayoy
Unsubscribe

Le mar. 12 avr. 2022, 12 h 27 a.m., Friedhelm Waitzmann <
fach220408.fw...@xoxy.net> a écrit :

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Dear Moritz!
>
> Moritz Mühlenhoff:
> >Friedhelm Waitzmann wrote:
> >>> For the oldstable distribution (buster), these problems have
> >>> been fixed in version 91.8.0esr-1~deb10u1.
> >>
> >>  Where can I get this from for buster and architecture i386?
> >> <
> http://security.debian.org/debian-security/dists/buster/updates/main/binary-i386/Packages.xz
> >
> >>  does not have it.
>
> >The Firefox ESR91 series triggers an internal compiler error
> >with the GCC version included in Debian 10, so there's no build
> >available currently.
>
> Thank you for defining this.
>
>
> >There's one for Debian 11 (where GCC builds it correctly),
> >
>
> In the near future I will migrate to Debian 11.
>
>
> >but I'd instead suggest to switch to amd64 instead.
> >
>
> You mean, that it is possible to run amd64 on my old hardware
>
>
> 1#
>
> vendor_id   : GenuineIntel
> cpu family  : 6
> model   : 22
> model name  : Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU  440  @ 2.00GHz
> stepping: 1
> microcode   : 0x43
> cpu MHz : 1229.629
> cache size  : 512 KB
>
> and
>
> 2#
>
> vendor_id   : GenuineIntel
> cpu family  : 15
> model   : 2
> model name  : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.00GHz
> stepping: 4
> cpu MHz : 1993.656
> cache size  : 512 KB
>
> ?
>
> And if it is indeed possible, how can I switch from i386 to
> amd64?  Can this be done with the apt tools?  Then during the
> migrating some packages will be from amd64 already while others
> will be still i386.  How does that go right?
>
>
>
> I suggest, that further discussing should take place in
> debian-amd64@lists.debian.org.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Friedhelm
>
>
> My OpenPGP‐Key:
>
> - -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-
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Re: amd64 running on Intel Celeron and Pentium? (was: [SECURITY] [DSA 5113-1] firefox-esr security update)

2022-04-13 Thread Paul Daniel
unsubscribe

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 12:27 AM Friedhelm Waitzmann <
fach220408.fw...@xoxy.net> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Dear Moritz!
>
> Moritz Mühlenhoff:
> >Friedhelm Waitzmann wrote:
> >>> For the oldstable distribution (buster), these problems have
> >>> been fixed in version 91.8.0esr-1~deb10u1.
> >>
> >>  Where can I get this from for buster and architecture i386?
> >> <
> http://security.debian.org/debian-security/dists/buster/updates/main/binary-i386/Packages.xz
> >
> >>  does not have it.
>
> >The Firefox ESR91 series triggers an internal compiler error
> >with the GCC version included in Debian 10, so there's no build
> >available currently.
>
> Thank you for defining this.
>
>
> >There's one for Debian 11 (where GCC builds it correctly),
> >
>
> In the near future I will migrate to Debian 11.
>
>
> >but I'd instead suggest to switch to amd64 instead.
> >
>
> You mean, that it is possible to run amd64 on my old hardware
>
>
> 1#
>
> vendor_id   : GenuineIntel
> cpu family  : 6
> model   : 22
> model name  : Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU  440  @ 2.00GHz
> stepping: 1
> microcode   : 0x43
> cpu MHz : 1229.629
> cache size  : 512 KB
>
> and
>
> 2#
>
> vendor_id   : GenuineIntel
> cpu family  : 15
> model   : 2
> model name  : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.00GHz
> stepping: 4
> cpu MHz : 1993.656
> cache size  : 512 KB
>
> ?
>
> And if it is indeed possible, how can I switch from i386 to
> amd64?  Can this be done with the apt tools?  Then during the
> migrating some packages will be from amd64 already while others
> will be still i386.  How does that go right?
>
>
>
> I suggest, that further discussing should take place in
> debian-amd64@lists.debian.org.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Friedhelm
>
>
> My OpenPGP‐Key:
>
> - -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-
>
> mQENBFoCvhgBCADnymmMgAzxsUqP9GPSK+QJATL4w/C8KS7ghUdu7TT4mdEfMfgI
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