Re: sources.list: experimental
Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 schrieb Jochen Schulz: Lennart Sorensen: On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:35:59PM +0100, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote: just a question: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? upgrade doesn't do anything involving adding or removing packages. Well, but it upgrades packages. In other words: it overwrites existing packages. That's what Hans asked. Yes, that is exactly, what I wanted to know: does it overwrite all installed packages with packages with higher version numbers ? ( = versions from experimental). dist-upgrade does, so really using anything other than dist-upgrade ever is just a mistake. No, it is not. Using 'upgrade' (or 'safe-upgrade' when using aptitude) is the safe way to update your system without changing the set of installed packages. In the past, this list received many mails from people asking for help after apt(itude) removed some important package from their system. If all these people had made a habit of using dist-upgrade only when they know they really need it, they would have saved themselves a lot trouble. Of course, if you always check apt(itude)'s output before confirming its actions, you don't break your system either. But it is never a mistake to try the safe alternative first. J. I think my original question was wrong told: It is not a matter of the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade (this difference i well known by me), my question aimed more to like Hey, if there are higher versions in experimental, are they automatically installed, when doing apt-get dist-upgrade (like it behave, if I am running testing and add the repository of sid in sources.list) ? Or are all versions in experimental ignored, as experimental is handled in a special way ? ...similar to that, you know what I mean. And yes, Jochen, I know the matter of dist-upgrade, and I always say: upgrade is normal, but dist-upgrade is the intelligent upgrade (as you heve to think, before confirming)! Best regards Hans -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:40:56AM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Actualy you are verry wrong there. Not in what it is supposed to do but in what actually happens and why update is a good idea. As you say will do things involving adding or removing packages. Unfortunately it is not always too smart about that and result depend on the order of updates. For example: Package: foo Version: 1.2-3 Depends: foo-simple (= 1.2-3) | foo-heavy (= 1.2-3) Now imagine you have foo 1.2-1 and foo-heavy 1.2-1 installed then dist-upgrade will want to update foo 1.2-3. That will have broken dependencies (foo-heavy 1.2-3 is not installed yet) so to fullfill them it will add foo-simple 1.2-3. Only later it hits foo-heavy 1.2-1 and will also update that to 1.2-3. I have never seen dist-upgrade do something that stupid. I have used dist-upgrade exclusively for almost 10 years now without seeing anything like that. By first doing an upgrade you have 2 effects: 1) many examples like above do get solved by upgrade 2) the number of packages for dist-upgrade is greatly reduced often resulting in a better solution, at least from my experience Doing upgrade first just makes you have to do things in two steps, where dist-upgrade alone in the first place would have done the job. PS: aptitude can be even more spectacular wrong if the dependencies are currently broken like often in sid. The non-GUI mode I find mostly unbearable. Aptitide tries, but sometimes gets a bit carried away. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
Hans, On Wed 03 December 2008 05:37, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote: Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 schrieb Jochen Schulz: Lennart Sorensen: On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:35:59PM +0100, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote: just a question: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? upgrade doesn't do anything involving adding or removing packages. Well, but it upgrades packages. In other words: it overwrites existing packages. That's what Hans asked. Yes, that is exactly, what I wanted to know: does it overwrite all installed packages with packages with higher version numbers ? ( = versions from experimental). dist-upgrade does, so really using anything other than dist-upgrade ever is just a mistake. No, it is not. Using 'upgrade' (or 'safe-upgrade' when using aptitude) is the safe way to update your system without changing the set of installed packages. In the past, this list received many mails from people asking for help after apt(itude) removed some important package from their system. If all these people had made a habit of using dist-upgrade only when they know they really need it, they would have saved themselves a lot trouble. Of course, if you always check apt(itude)'s output before confirming its actions, you don't break your system either. But it is never a mistake to try the safe alternative first. J. I think my original question was wrong told: It is not a matter of the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade (this difference i well known by me), my question aimed more to like Hey, if there are higher versions in experimental, are they automatically installed, when doing apt-get dist-upgrade (like it behave, if I am running testing and add the repository of sid in sources.list) ? Or are all versions in experimental ignored, as experimental is handled in a special way ? I certainly am not an expert at package management. In fact, I think maintaining a mixed system probably is one of the least understood areas of Debian policy, but some time ago, I came across this recommendation. I tend to run Stable, with a few packages from Testing, and keep this line in my /etc/apt/apt.conf file: APT::Default-Release stable; IIANM this ensures that my majority, stable packages will not be upgraded to testing packages, even though I have the testing repository in my sources.list file. Pinning is another option, but I understand it even less. HTH Cheers! cmr ...similar to that, you know what I mean. And yes, Jochen, I know the matter of dist-upgrade, and I always say: upgrade is normal, but dist-upgrade is the intelligent upgrade (as you heve to think, before confirming)! Best regards Hans -- Debian 'Etch' - Registered Linux User #241964 More laws, less justice. -- Marcus Tullius Ciceroca, 42 BC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lennart Sorensen) writes: On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:40:56AM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Actualy you are verry wrong there. Not in what it is supposed to do but in what actually happens and why update is a good idea. As you say will do things involving adding or removing packages. Unfortunately it is not always too smart about that and result depend on the order of updates. For example: Package: foo Version: 1.2-3 Depends: foo-simple (= 1.2-3) | foo-heavy (= 1.2-3) Now imagine you have foo 1.2-1 and foo-heavy 1.2-1 installed then dist-upgrade will want to update foo 1.2-3. That will have broken dependencies (foo-heavy 1.2-3 is not installed yet) so to fullfill them it will add foo-simple 1.2-3. Only later it hits foo-heavy 1.2-1 and will also update that to 1.2-3. I have never seen dist-upgrade do something that stupid. I have used dist-upgrade exclusively for almost 10 years now without seeing anything like that. Did it on nearly every xemacs update for me. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
Jochen Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hans-J. Ullrich: I think my original question was wrong told: It is not a matter of the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade (this difference i well known by me), my question aimed more to like Hey, if there are higher versions in experimental, are they automatically installed, when doing apt-get dist-upgrade (like it behave, if I am running testing and add the repository of sid in sources.list) ? Or are all versions in experimental ignored, as experimental is handled in a special way ? The correct answer has already been given, but just to make sure: yes, experimental is handled differently. Apt will never automatically upgrade a package on your system to the version in experimental (unless you use pinning for that). J. Too add some details: The Release file for experimental contains: NotAutomatic: yes This causes apt/aptitude to automatically pin experimental to 1 (I think). Then, when installing/updating apt will look at all sources of a package, take those with the highest pin and of those the one with the highest version. For more RTFM. MfG Goswin PS: If unsure run apt-cache policy [package] to see what apt things. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sources.list: experimental
Hi all, just a question: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? Thanks for your help. Cheers Hans -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 18:35, Hans-J. Ullrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? No, you need to explicitly request to install packages from experimental using -t experimental option. Regards, -- Sandro Tosi (aka morph, Morpheus, matrixhasu) My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
On 12/02/08 11:39, Sandro Tosi wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 18:35, Hans-J. Ullrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? No, you need to explicitly request to install packages from experimental using -t experimental option. To follow up on that, note how experimental is down at priority 1: $ apt-cache policy Package files: 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status release a=now 500 http://tovid.sourceforge.net unstable/contrib Packages origin tovid.sourceforge.net 1 http://ftp.debian.org ../project/experimental/non-free Packages release o=Debian,a=experimental,l=Debian,c=non-free origin ftp.debian.org 1 http://ftp.debian.org ../project/experimental/contrib Packages release o=Debian,a=experimental,l=Debian,c=contrib origin ftp.debian.org 1 http://ftp.debian.org ../project/experimental/main Packages release o=Debian,a=experimental,l=Debian,c=main origin ftp.debian.org 500 http://www.debian-multimedia.org unstable/main Packages release v=None,o=Unofficial Multimedia Packages,a=unstable,l=Unofficial Multimedia Packages,c=main origin www.debian-multimedia.org 500 ftp://mirrors.kernel.org unstable/non-free Packages release o=Debian,a=unstable,l=Debian,c=non-free origin mirrors.kernel.org 500 ftp://mirrors.kernel.org unstable/contrib Packages release o=Debian,a=unstable,l=Debian,c=contrib origin mirrors.kernel.org 500 ftp://mirrors.kernel.org unstable/main Packages release o=Debian,a=unstable,l=Debian,c=main origin mirrors.kernel.org Pinned packages: -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled? What different abilities do I have? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:35:59PM +0100, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote: just a question: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? upgrade doesn't do anything involving adding or removing packages. dist-upgrade does, so really using anything other than dist-upgrade ever is just a mistake. upgrade really shouldn't even be an option. At least for apt-get. Perhaps aptitude behaves differently. Other than that, as already mentioned you would have to specifically specify experimental for a package to install that. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
Lennart Sorensen: On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:35:59PM +0100, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote: just a question: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? upgrade doesn't do anything involving adding or removing packages. Well, but it upgrades packages. In other words: it overwrites existing packages. That's what Hans asked. dist-upgrade does, so really using anything other than dist-upgrade ever is just a mistake. No, it is not. Using 'upgrade' (or 'safe-upgrade' when using aptitude) is the safe way to update your system without changing the set of installed packages. In the past, this list received many mails from people asking for help after apt(itude) removed some important package from their system. If all these people had made a habit of using dist-upgrade only when they know they really need it, they would have saved themselves a lot trouble. Of course, if you always check apt(itude)'s output before confirming its actions, you don't break your system either. But it is never a mistake to try the safe alternative first. J. -- I often blame my shortcomings on my upbringing. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sources.list: experimental
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lennart Sorensen) writes: On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:35:59PM +0100, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote: just a question: adding an experimental source to the sources list (just to install a special application from this), will an aptitude upgrade or apt-get upgrade overwrite ALL installed packages ? upgrade doesn't do anything involving adding or removing packages. dist-upgrade does, so really using anything other than dist-upgrade ever is just a mistake. upgrade really shouldn't even be an option. At least for apt-get. Perhaps aptitude behaves differently. Actualy you are verry wrong there. Not in what it is supposed to do but in what actually happens and why update is a good idea. As you say will do things involving adding or removing packages. Unfortunately it is not always too smart about that and result depend on the order of updates. For example: Package: foo Version: 1.2-3 Depends: foo-simple (= 1.2-3) | foo-heavy (= 1.2-3) Now imagine you have foo 1.2-1 and foo-heavy 1.2-1 installed then dist-upgrade will want to update foo 1.2-3. That will have broken dependencies (foo-heavy 1.2-3 is not installed yet) so to fullfill them it will add foo-simple 1.2-3. Only later it hits foo-heavy 1.2-1 and will also update that to 1.2-3. By first doing an upgrade you have 2 effects: 1) many examples like above do get solved by upgrade 2) the number of packages for dist-upgrade is greatly reduced often resulting in a better solution, at least from my experience MfG Goswin PS: aptitude can be even more spectacular wrong if the dependencies are currently broken like often in sid. The non-GUI mode I find mostly unbearable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sources.list: experimental
Jochen Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course, if you always check apt(itude)'s output before confirming its actions, you don't break your system either. But it is never a mistake to try the safe alternative first. Which is a lot shorter and easier to read once the safe-upgrade packages are out of the way. :) MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
