Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
Below a reply to a very old post from Joey [1] to which I should have replied then, but never got around to. I've quoted his mail in full for context. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2008/05/msg00345.html On Thursday 08 May 2008, Joey Hess wrote: A long, long time ago I proposed changing the main menu into a kind of list of settings like this. Language: English Location: United States Network: autoconfigure Disk: autopartition entire disk (hda1) Users: root, joey Software: desktop, print-server Grub: install to MBR, no other OS Finish installation I get the idea, but I don't really see the implementation. For a lot of components I just don't see how you could usefully translate them into a value and there's also the problem of limited line length. Select a menu item to configure it, thereby running the menu item at medium priority, or skip over it if the default setting looks good (and skipped over menu items would run noninteractively at high[1] priority as needed to satisfy dependencies). Once you have such a menu, it's easy to add things to it, without them getting in the way unduely. As long as there arn't *too* many. Language: English Location: United States Mouse: PS/2 Theme: foo Network: autoconfigure Disk: hda1, autopartition entire disk Users: root, joey Software: desktop Grub: no other OS Finish installation Expert mode: disabled Rescue mode: disabled Of course, submenus could also conceivably branch off of this. installer-settings essentially implements a submenu. I also feel that the implementation I have now is one that does not get in the way, especially since it is only really used if the user selects expert mode, so basically he gets what he asks for. For the graphical installer it would be great if an alternative menu bar kind of interface could be implemented. Frans Pop wrote: Overview of potential settings -- * General - show expert questions (in early) - debconf priority (in menu) - rescue mode (in early/additional) - frontend theme - mouse support (device/protocol/left-handed) (in early/menu) Having these things in a submenu makes sense, I think, both in the current installer, and in the context of the above wild idea. * Hardware support - SATA RAID - multipath - PCMCIA support (could help avoid asking multiple times!) * Networking - PPPoE support (in early) - type of configuration (none/static/dhcp) - allow unauthenticated (?) * Installed system - use SUDO instead of root account - create first user * Debian settings (or Package management) - use security (?) - use volatile (?) - use contrib (?) - use non-free (?) * Advanced - keep regular virtual consoles (sercon installs) - eject CD - halt/poweroff system instead of reboot I'm not convinced that it makes sense to have a menu with these things on it, rather than just asking the questions at relevant times with appropriate priorities. For a number of them I'm inclined to agree. We will have to be very careful about which we do and which we don't select. But I also feel quite strongly about keeping the number of times to hit enter for a full install as low as possible. And there are some options that IMO really should be more easily accessible to users, *without* forcing them to go through _all_ possible dialogs and permutations. One example is the eject CD option. This really does cause problems sometimes, but not enough to warrant an extra dialog during finish-install warning that the CD is about to be ejected. Currently the only way to prevent CD ejection is using a boot option, which most users don't know about and which you have to remember at a time that your mind just isn't on that stage of the installation. Having it as a setting Eject CD at end of install means that users will both have an easy way to change it _and_ have a visual reminder. To what extent are the problems this is trying to solve due to us having gotten into the bad habit of adding debconf settings but never actually displaying a question for them? AFAIK we've only done that for functionality that is still experimental. It's always been the intention to make them properly accessible, or to support them by default, once better implemented. ATM both dmraid and multipath still rely on very crude bootloader installer support. More general, for support of things like PPPoE, dmraid and multipath the installer can IMO go two ways: 1) support by default, which means additional memory usage and potential failure modes; 2) offer it as optional functionality. Given that all three are only relevant for a fairly small subset of users, I feel that the second option is quite realistic. But neither forcing those users to the current expert mode
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Frans Pop wrote: Over the past months I've been working on a new component that allows to change settings for the installer. Main intention is to improve the flexibility of the installer and the user experience. Not that much feedback, but I guess that was to be expected :-( So, let me explain what this is all about. There are several things that I've never really liked about the current expert mode: * default install offers too few options for quite a few users, but expert mode immediately goes to the lowest possible level: there is no graceful way to select intermediate levels * medium priority (which I've personally always preferred over low priority) is effectively inaccessible to users and unused in practice * showing the menu is coupled hard to priority levels, even though for debugging it would be quite nice if you could run an install at high prio but _with_ menu, and for expert installs it would be quite nice if you could run at medium prio but _without_ menu (as users in principle have no need to skip installation steps or change the order of installation steps) Another issue is that we do have some specific options in D-I (PPPoE, dmraid, multipath) that I would personally like to see remain as optional features, but we currently don't have any user-friendly way to activate support for such option. installer-settings is intended to solve all of these issues. Flexible and gradual expert support = In its current implementation installer-settings does *not* change default installs: no extra dialogs, no changes in the installation order. Only if you back up to the main menu you will see a new option Installer settings that allows to change settings that are relevant at that point of the installation. It also allows to change the debconf priority and whether or not to display the main menu. Expert installs are changed. A lot! * Instead of 'priority=low' the syslinux config will now add 'expert=true'. In other words: when the installer is started the priority is *high*, just as for a default install. * localechooser checks this expert setting and if set displays its medium prio dialogs (e.g. locale selection) at high priority. * After locale and keyboard selection a early installer settings dialog is displayed. This allows the user to select the expert level at which he wishes to continue the installation. * After anna a second installer settings dialog is displayed. This will allow to change settings for components that were not available before anna and settings which will never be relevant during the early stages of the installation. All this results in the following modes being available to users: 1) automated/preseeded install (critical priority): installer-settings is disabled 2) default install 3) expert mode: a) default level: remain at high priority, but with option to change settings (for example: to activate dmraid support) b) same as a) but with main menu displayed between components c) advanced level: medium priority, without main menu (by default it is displayed, but it can now be disabled) d) same as c) but with main menu e) could be implemented as either expert level or as debug level; in either case: low priority (menu will always be displayed) 4) rescue mode When this is implemented the priority level of some dialogs should probably be adjusted. For example: the grub password dialog should be displayed at medium priority. Some existing dialogs could possibly be implemented as a setting, in which case the priority of the dialog itself should be lowered to low priority. Implementation == installer-settings has a drop-in structure to add settings somewhat similar to partman. This means that the code that implements an individual setting can be part of the relevant component. Example: the settings for dmraid and multipath are implemented in disk-detect. See /usr/lib/settings/*/ in the test images for examples. installer-settings itself has absolutely no state info: it exclusively uses state (debconf values) from the component to which a setting belongs. This means that it does not interfere in any way with for example preseeding. installer-settings itself consists of 4 udebs: - installer-settings: core functionality - settings-early: provides the settings menu entry after locale/kbd-chooser - settings-anna: provides the settings menu entry after anna - settings-menu: provides the permanent optional settings menu entry Settings can be defined very flexibly: - limit to settings-early/anna/menu - only show at certain debconf priorities - only show based on scripted logic (choices script) - warn or don't show if certain installation steps have already been run Settings can be coded to be changed either by just hitting enter on them, or by displaying a dialog. Size impact --- There is some size impact,
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
On Thursday 15 January 2009, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: Being able to easily (and really), switch from expert mode to standard mode is really great for those who just needs expert mode in the firsts steps. Hmmm again. That is not really what happens, especially not if you compare it to the current situation. If you have time, could you try it a bit more extensively and maybe describe a bit how you think expert mode now works with the test images? The same request for others: I'm really interested to find out if the new concept feels natural to users who do not have it explained to them first. Some hints: - default installation is basically unchanged; only difference is if you back up to the menu - expert installation really is completely different from current situation, please give it a try! - the option to enable dmraid/multipath support is somewhat separate from the change in the expert mode concept Images available at: http://people.debian.org/~fjp/tmp/d-i/settings/ I will send an explanation of the concept at the end of the weekend. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 23:06 +0100, Frans Pop wrote: On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: If I understand correctly, the idea is to be able to be able to switch *easily* between standard and expert mode during the installation. This is a nice. Hmm. Have you tried booting in expert mode? I have quickly tested the updated images... The behaviour of the bug-free images is very much sensible ;) I like the Using expert mode isn't recommended notice. I still like the possibility to opt-out some DI steps. Being able to easily (and really), switch from expert mode to standard mode is really great for those who just needs expert mode in the firsts steps. I didn't fount any problem/drawback in this quick test. Franklin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
[RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
Hi all, Over the past months I've been working on a new component that allows to change settings for the installer. Main intention is to improve the flexibility of the installer and the user experience. I'm now at the point where I'm happy with the framework and would like to get some comments from others. I'm not going to say too much about how it works. Just try it! Test images for amd64 and i386 (newt frontend only) are available from: http://people.debian.org/~fjp/tmp/d-i/settings/ What I will say is: * it completely changes the concept of expert mode * you can now have the main menu displayed optionally for both high and medium prio installs! * for this demo only a limited number of settings are available: - changing the installation level - activating support for dmraid and multipath * demo images use vga=788 for newt frontend For the demo there are a few implementation differences between the activation of dmraid and multipath to show the versatility. Just try changing those settings at different points during an installation. I'm looking forward to your comments and thoughts. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
Hello Frans, On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 12:06 +0100, Frans Pop wrote: Over the past months I've been working on a new component that allows to change settings for the installer. [..] What I will say is: * it completely changes the concept of expert mode If I understand correctly, the idea is to be able to be able to switch *easily* between standard and expert mode during the installation. This is a nice. I took me a few minutes to understand how that's supposed to work (I though it was a bug or an incomplete implementation whereas it is just a matter of changing the wording) * you can now have the main menu displayed optionally for both high and medium prio installs! Being able to opt-in or opt-out some steps (like dmraid) is a great idea. (would it be possible to switch between [standard|expert|skip]?) * for this demo only a limited number of settings are available: - changing the installation level - activating support for dmraid and multipath * demo images use vga=788 for newt frontend For the demo there are a few implementation differences between the activation of dmraid and multipath to show the versatility. Just try changing those settings at different points during an installation. I haven't tested it yet. I'll sleep on it, and let you know If I have more ideas. Franklin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: If I understand correctly, the idea is to be able to be able to switch *easily* between standard and expert mode during the installation. This is a nice. Hmm. Have you tried booting in expert mode? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Frans Pop wrote: Test images for amd64 and i386 (newt frontend only) are available from: http://people.debian.org/~fjp/tmp/d-i/settings/ Major OOPS! I just realize that the image for i386 is completely broken as some of the modified udebs are not included. I'll fix that and upload a new image. The amd64 image is correct. Sorry... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] New installer-settings component - please test and comment!
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Frans Pop wrote: On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Frans Pop wrote: Test images for amd64 and i386 (newt frontend only) are available from: http://people.debian.org/~fjp/tmp/d-i/settings/ I just realize that the image for i386 is completely broken as some of the modified udebs are not included. The image available now is correct. Sorry for any inconvenience or confusion this may have caused. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
