Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Randolph Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > If we do decide to install standard by default Yes, we need to do that. My reading of policy is that standard packages really ought to be installed by default w/o prompting. They are baseline, standard. > i favor the automatically- > do-tasksel -s method; the psuedo-task method seems like a kludge to me. Yes, I agree. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:21:28PM +, Wookey wrote: > On Sun 03 Dec, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > > > and I'm the schlub who has to maintain the old system until the new one is > > ready. > > And I'd just like to say that you do a very good job on that front. It's a > thankless task but a very important one and I think we're all impressed with > the amount of work you put in. So am I, definitely. >People don't remember to say that very often, > so I thought I would. > > Wookey > -- > Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel (00 44) 1223 811679 > work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.eric.ath.cx Please don't send proprietary format documents, I can't (and don't want to) open them. Appreciated are open-source formats like .txt or .rtf. Dvi, ps or tex files are welcome. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Adam Di Carlo wrote: > That seems to be what Joey has done (joey, was that for potato or > woody?). Woody. > That is fine with me. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Randolph Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > If we do decide to install standard by default i favor the automatically- > do-tasksel -s method; the psuedo-task method seems like a kludge to me. That seems to be what Joey has done (joey, was that for potato or woody?). That is fine with me. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
> This can really be read two ways; either standard is selected if you pick > nothing else and deselected if you pick anything, or it is selected and > anything else you pick layers on top. Since the second is dselect's behavior, > I suspect the second meaning is the intended one. My concern is purely from a user perspective. Granted lots of people install from CD-ROM or have high-speed internet connections these days, do we want to automatically make people install 50megs of stuff? I guess one could argue that this is pretty small by today's standards If we do decide to install standard by default i favor the automatically- do-tasksel -s method; the psuedo-task method seems like a kludge to me. just my 2c of course... randolph -- Debian Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.TauSq.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Randolph Chung wrote: > > No -- I'm not saying that we create a new task package. I am merely > > saying that tasksel should have a selectable item on the list which is > > *not* from a task package, representing the packages at the standard > > priority. > > *grumble*, IMO this is much easier done in base-config I can go that way if you want to go that way. OTOH, do we really want to add a new question to the installation process just to ask "you do want enogh packages to have 'a reasonably small but not too limited character-mode system'" ? It's worth looking at what policy has to say: `standard' These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited character-mode system. This is what will install by default if the user doesn't select anything else. It doesn't include many large applications, but it does include Emacs (this is more of a piece of infrastructure than an application) and a reasonable subset of TeX and LaTeX (if this is possible without X). This can really be read two ways; either standard is selected if you pick nothing else and deselected if you pick anything, or it is selected and anything else you pick layers on top. Since the second is dselect's behavior, I suspect the second meaning is the intended one. If so, tasksel -s meets the letter and spirit of policy, as does aph's idea about having what looks like a task. I don't think prompting about standard seperately is in line with what policy is saying. OTOH, if we decide to do that, we can just change policy. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
> No -- I'm not saying that we create a new task package. I am merely > saying that tasksel should have a selectable item on the list which is > *not* from a task package, representing the packages at the standard > priority. *grumble*, IMO this is much easier done in base-config randolph -- Debian Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.TauSq.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
From: Adam Di Carlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 06 Dec 2000 10:52:01 -0500 > Well, that's not really true, is it? Don't we write out /target/etc/modules > here? I don't think that we touch it any other time. modconf writes that file. The user can run modconf (or compile a new kernel) post-installation. For the purposes of installing the system, it is true that all the "drivers" you need to configure are those that you require to install the system, QED. Suggestion: change the install program to tell the user that (a) he/she don't have to configure all the modules now, just the ones needed to install the system, and that (b) he/she can get back to this screen by running the program modconf. - Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > Ted recommended that one of the tasks be made to represent the > > standard packages. I think this is a very good idea. Let it be > > checked by default. > > I think there are two problems: > > 1. How do we get this package; must it be rebuilt every time a package >is added/removed from standard? It would need to keep track of >differences accross architectures too. No -- I'm not saying that we create a new task package. I am merely saying that tasksel should have a selectable item on the list which is *not* from a task package, representing the packages at the standard priority. > 2. Making it be selected by default in tasksel is not surrently >supported. It occurs to me though that tasksel could look at package >status and mark all tasks that are installed or are marked for install. >Then base-config could just >'echo task-standard install | dpkg --set-selections' before running >tasksel. See above. It's not literally a package. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Daniel Jacobowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 01:49:26AM -0500, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > Well, for instance, even with booting with the 'compact' set, which > > has a lot of ethernet cards included, on my system at home, I need the > > 3c509 driver installed. So, if I want to install the rest of the > > system over the network, I need to load the module here. > > > > I guess I should try to clarify in the UI that this step is for > > loading modules which are needed for the installation process. > > Well, that's not really true, is it? Don't we write out /target/etc/modules > here? I don't think that we touch it any other time. modconf writes that file. The user can run modconf (or compile a new kernel) post-installation. For the purposes of installing the system, it is true that all the "drivers" you need to configure are those that you require to install the system, QED. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
On Sun 03 Dec, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > and I'm the schlub who has to maintain the old system until the new one is > ready. And I'd just like to say that you do a very good job on that front. It's a thankless task but a very important one and I think we're all impressed with the amount of work you put in. People don't remember to say that very often, so I thought I would. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel (00 44) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 01:49:26AM -0500, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Well, for instance, even with booting with the 'compact' set, which > has a lot of ethernet cards included, on my system at home, I need the > 3c509 driver installed. So, if I want to install the rest of the > system over the network, I need to load the module here. > > I guess I should try to clarify in the UI that this step is for > loading modules which are needed for the installation process. Well, that's not really true, is it? Don't we write out /target/etc/modules here? I don't think that we touch it any other time. Dan /\ /\ | Daniel Jacobowitz|__|SCS Class of 2002 | | Debian GNU/Linux Developer__Carnegie Mellon University | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | \/ \/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Ted recommended that one of the tasks be made to represent the > standard packages. I think this is a very good idea. Let it be > checked by default. I think there are two problems: 1. How do we get this package; must it be rebuilt every time a package is added/removed from standard? It would need to keep track of differences accross architectures too. 2. Making it be selected by default in tasksel is not surrently supported. It occurs to me though that tasksel could look at package status and mark all tasks that are installed or are marked for install. Then base-config could just 'echo task-standard install | dpkg --set-selections' before running tasksel. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Task standard packages: Would that mean that you could uncross it and get a truly minimum (for debian) configuration, possible making "embedded" people happy? Regards, /Karl --- Karl HammarAspö Data [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lilla Aspö 2340 +46 173 140 57Networks S-742 94 Östhammar +46 70 511 97 84 Computers Sweden Consulting --- From: Adam Di Carlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install. Date: 04 Dec 2000 11:05:46 -0500 > Randolph Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Oh no, it's the "should tasksel autoselect standard" question again. We > > > had a talk about this last spring, and probably chose wrong. > > > > > > I've just uploaded to unstable a base-config that calls tasksel -s. > > > Problem solved. > > > > Hrm there are currently 90 "standard" packages in woody that add up > > to 50+ megs > > > > I think we should either move a *few* selected packages into a higher > > priority, or otherwise ask the user if s/he wants to install the > > standard packages rather than doing it automatically. > > Ted recommended that one of the tasks be made to represent the > standard packages. I think this is a very good idea. Let it be > checked by default. > > Randolph, what do you think of this? > > -- > .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/> > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>From: Adam Di Carlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: 03 Dec 2000 01:49:26 -0500
>
>Well, as you probably already know, since the PCMCIA subsystem is by
>definition in the form of kernel modules, the only way to solve this
>would be to put cardmgr and the pcmcia modules on the "root"
>filesystem, so you don't need to load it subsequently.
>
> Yup it would probably require making a 2.88 meg el torito boot/root
> image, which means it wouldn't fit on a standard 3.5 inch floppy
> anymore, but it should be possible on a CD-ROM boot.
Well, we do make such an image, but it's just the root and rescue
disks slapped together.
This would make a good feature request however.
>> > So I booted back into
>> > Windows, created a scratch partition, and copied the entire Debian
>> > Potato 2.2 Binary-i386 R0 CD-ROM into that scratch partition and then
>> > tried again.
>
>Ah. You probalby could have gotten away with just putting rescue.bin
>and drivers.tgz there, but no harm.
>
> Yup, I didn't know that at the time. (No instructions, or at least none
> that I was able to find on short notice.)
>
> And it turns out that since I was doing this under Windows, I copied
> over files onto a VFAT partition, which means that the symlinks didn't
> copy over correctly.
There aren't a lot of symlinks -- just for the safe images and
documentation. Which symlinks?
> This turned out to be a headache later when I
> actually tried to use the VFAT partition to apt-get the dhcp-client
> client. (No, I didn't realize that pump was installed by default, or I
> would have used it, despite the fact that it violates the DHCP RFC's.
> Why anyone would want to use pump is beyond me. I guess it is simple.
> But anyway)
Yes, simple and small. We couldn't fit dhcp-client. Maybe someone
should file bugs against pump so that it complies... ?
>Well, for instance, even with booting with the 'compact' set, which
>has a lot of ethernet cards included, on my system at home, I need the
>3c509 driver installed. So, if I want to install the rest of the
>system over the network, I need to load the module here.
>
>I guess I should try to clarify in the UI that this step is for
>loading modules which are needed for the installation process.
>
> That would definitely be a good thing. And perhaps you should filter
> out some modules such as the one for IP Masquerading for Real Audio? Or
> the Cyclades serial port driver? Somehow I doubt you'd ever need those
> for the installation process. :-)
Yes -- bugs here should be filed against whatever is the relevant
kernel. I think the compact and idepci kernels already do this for
the most part.
> I assumed since all of the modules that you might ever need were there,
> and those modules were loaded upon boot once the system was installed,
> that it was a intentional design decision to present all of the modules
> at this stage of the game.
Well, I don't have much choice -- partially due to the division of
labor in Debian. The kernel maintainers maintain the different
kernels. We just show whatever modules are available. Part of the
problem is that we are using the stock kernels for the most part, so
we really don't have a way to distinguish between modules that are
needed for installation and modules which are perhaps needed at some
point after installation is complete.
Frankly, rather than go through all the effort to fix this, I'd rather
wait for the debian-installer (new installation system), since that
will have most stuff covered via auto-sensing and all that.
> I also didn't find an easy, obvious way to
> bring up the kernel modules dialog box after the system was fully
> installed.
Yes, that should be documented. It's called 'modconf'.
> (My generic gripe about Debian; there's no easy, advertised
> way to figure out how to get back to any configuration screen after the
> fact. With Red Hat, I can just run "linuxconf", and most things are
> there, in one place)
Well, due to the fact that Debian is so big and agnostic, I don't know
if we'll ever have that unity of config that RedHat does.
>Yes, we should track this down and get a bug filed.
>
> I'm not sure the problem was with apt-setup or with whatever mysterious
> configuration program ("Debian System Configuration") that was calling
> apt-setup. The point was, though, once apt-setup bombed out, I couldn't
> figure out anyway to restart that configuration program short of doing
> the installation from scratch again. I tried rebooting, and it had
> already taken itself out of whatever bootpath it had used to make sure
> it started the first time the system was booted after the install.
'dpkg-reconfigure base-config'
> (Maybe it shouldn't remove itself until after the
> installation/configuration is completely successful?)
Probably.
>> > Networking was not set up automatically for me. The fact that
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Randolph Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Oh no, it's the "should tasksel autoselect standard" question again. We > > had a talk about this last spring, and probably chose wrong. > > > > I've just uploaded to unstable a base-config that calls tasksel -s. > > Problem solved. > > Hrm there are currently 90 "standard" packages in woody that add up > to 50+ megs > > I think we should either move a *few* selected packages into a higher > priority, or otherwise ask the user if s/he wants to install the > standard packages rather than doing it automatically. Ted recommended that one of the tasks be made to represent the standard packages. I think this is a very good idea. Let it be checked by default. Randolph, what do you think of this? -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
On Sun Dec 03, 2000 at 11:09:05AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > client. (No, I didn't realize that pump was installed by default, or I > would have used it, despite the fact that it violates the DHCP RFC's. > Why anyone would want to use pump is beyond me. I guess it is simple. > But anyway) andersen@traveller:~$ ls -sh /sbin/pump 36k /sbin/pump* andersen@traveller:~$ ls -sh /sbin/dhclient /sbin/dhclient-2.2.x 4.0k /sbin/dhclient* 112k /sbin/dhclient-2.2.x* -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
From: Adam Di Carlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 03 Dec 2000 01:49:26 -0500
Well, as you probably already know, since the PCMCIA subsystem is by
definition in the form of kernel modules, the only way to solve this
would be to put cardmgr and the pcmcia modules on the "root"
filesystem, so you don't need to load it subsequently.
Yup it would probably require making a 2.88 meg el torito boot/root
image, which means it wouldn't fit on a standard 3.5 inch floppy
anymore, but it should be possible on a CD-ROM boot.
> > So I booted back into
> > Windows, created a scratch partition, and copied the entire Debian
> > Potato 2.2 Binary-i386 R0 CD-ROM into that scratch partition and then
> > tried again.
Ah. You probalby could have gotten away with just putting rescue.bin
and drivers.tgz there, but no harm.
Yup, I didn't know that at the time. (No instructions, or at least none
that I was able to find on short notice.)
And it turns out that since I was doing this under Windows, I copied
over files onto a VFAT partition, which means that the symlinks didn't
copy over correctly. This turned out to be a headache later when I
actually tried to use the VFAT partition to apt-get the dhcp-client
client. (No, I didn't realize that pump was installed by default, or I
would have used it, despite the fact that it violates the DHCP RFC's.
Why anyone would want to use pump is beyond me. I guess it is simple.
But anyway)
> > The second time I tried, I was able to load the kernel modules. This
> > screen here really needs simplifying. There's no reason to make the
> > user decide which modules should be loaded on a full system at such an
> > early point in the install. Regardless of where you fall on the
> > "modules should be dynamically loaded" versus the "modules should be
> > statically loaded at boot-time" argument, at the initial install time
> > only those modules which are desperately needed to install the system
> > should be asked for. If nothing else, deferring this means that the
> > installation system may have more resources at its disposal to provide
> > a more friendly interface to the user.
Well, for instance, even with booting with the 'compact' set, which
has a lot of ethernet cards included, on my system at home, I need the
3c509 driver installed. So, if I want to install the rest of the
system over the network, I need to load the module here.
I guess I should try to clarify in the UI that this step is for
loading modules which are needed for the installation process.
That would definitely be a good thing. And perhaps you should filter
out some modules such as the one for IP Masquerading for Real Audio? Or
the Cyclades serial port driver? Somehow I doubt you'd ever need those
for the installation process. :-)
I assumed since all of the modules that you might ever need were there,
and those modules were loaded upon boot once the system was installed,
that it was a intentional design decision to present all of the modules
at this stage of the game. I also didn't find an easy, obvious way to
bring up the kernel modules dialog box after the system was fully
installed. (My generic gripe about Debian; there's no easy, advertised
way to figure out how to get back to any configuration screen after the
fact. With Red Hat, I can just run "linuxconf", and most things are
there, in one place) This isn't a major disaster, since I plan to
replace the whole kernel with a custom one that I'm building anyway, but
I did think it was curious.
> > However, because it bombed out, it wasn't able to find the CD-ROM
> > automatically. So the system went into what I later discovered was
> > apt-setup, where one of the questions it asked me was whether I wanted
> > the non-free software or not. I said yes, but given that CD-1 (which I
> > had copied onto a spare partition) doesn't have non-free software, the
> > debian configuration system bombed out that that point no obvious
> > way of restarting it, and nothing on the system except the base system.
> > I fiddled with it a while, and finally decided I was wasting my time, so
> > I rebooted the system, and reinstalled a third time, blowing away
> > everything from the 2nd try installation.
>
> I suppose you told apt-setup to use a mounted filesystem as its access
> method?
>
> Apt-setup should be more robust than that -- it should notice apt has
> failed and tell you and let you correct it. I'd like to try to reproduce
> this problem.
Yes, we should track this down and get a bug filed.
I'm not sure the problem was with apt-setup or with whatever mysterious
configuration program ("Debian System Configuration") that was calling
apt-setup. The point was, though, once apt-setup bombed out, I couldn't
figure out anyway to restart that configuration program short of doing
the installation from scrat
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
> Oh no, it's the "should tasksel autoselect standard" question again. We > had a talk about this last spring, and probably chose wrong. > > I've just uploaded to unstable a base-config that calls tasksel -s. > Problem solved. Hrm there are currently 90 "standard" packages in woody that add up to 50+ megs I think we should either move a *few* selected packages into a higher priority, or otherwise ask the user if s/he wants to install the standard packages rather than doing it automatically. randolph -- Debian Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.TauSq.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Yes, this is very true. I think this is a newt bug or something, > which is already filed. It really needs to be improved. There is a simple fix for it, you just make the color of the button when inactive be the same as the color of the rest of the dialog box or screen. So it only changes color when it is highlighted. Whiptail has a similar problem, while dialog gets it right. It probably is a newt problem. > A harder question to answer. Debian has the "standard" priority for > packages which are standard on any unix box. Gpm has always been > installed for me, since it is priority "standard", so that is some > sort of bug that ought to be tracked down, e.g., why you didn't get > this. 'tasksel' is the package in question, that bugs should be filed > against. Oh no, it's the "should tasksel autoselect standard" question again. We had a talk about this last spring, and probably chose wrong. I've just uploaded to unstable a base-config that calls tasksel -s. Problem solved. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
I'm going to reply to relevant bits of this email, hopefully not being too redundant. As Joey already pointed out, we've stepped back, looked at our installation system, and decided to throw it out and start from scratch. Well, Joey's doing that, and I'm the schlub who has to maintain the old system until the new one is ready. So my concern, therefore, is in making incremental improvements where they can be made (given very very scarce resources, esp. since most everyone is off working on the new system) and basically maintenance. Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Ted T'so wrote: > > Another UI point. With three choices in the first few screens, it > > will make it much more obvious which button is selected. Because the > > background around each dialog box is blue, with blue meaning > > "highlighted" and "red" meaning not highlighted", it's not clear which > > is which. For a while I thought "red" meant highlighted Yes, this is very true. I think this is a newt bug or something, which is already filed. It really needs to be improved. > > The first time I did an initial install, PCMCIA was not configured > > properly. I have a Vaio 505TX, and this kind of PCMCIA CD-ROM install > > has been problematic before with other distributions. It was able to > > boot from the PCMCIA CD-ROM; that part worked fine. However, it > > bombed out trying to find the kernel and modules. I tried for a > > while, but it appears there's no way to support that directly from the > > CD-ROM given my hardware configuration. Well, as you probably already know, since the PCMCIA subsystem is by definition in the form of kernel modules, the only way to solve this would be to put cardmgr and the pcmcia modules on the "root" filesystem, so you don't need to load it subsequently. > > So I booted back into > > Windows, created a scratch partition, and copied the entire Debian > > Potato 2.2 Binary-i386 R0 CD-ROM into that scratch partition and then > > tried again. Ah. You probalby could have gotten away with just putting rescue.bin and drivers.tgz there, but no harm. > > The second time I tried, I was able to load the kernel modules. This > > screen here really needs simplifying. There's no reason to make the > > user decide which modules should be loaded on a full system at such an > > early point in the install. Regardless of where you fall on the > > "modules should be dynamically loaded" versus the "modules should be > > statically loaded at boot-time" argument, at the initial install time > > only those modules which are desperately needed to install the system > > should be asked for. If nothing else, deferring this means that the > > installation system may have more resources at its disposal to provide > > a more friendly interface to the user. Well, for instance, even with booting with the 'compact' set, which has a lot of ethernet cards included, on my system at home, I need the 3c509 driver installed. So, if I want to install the rest of the system over the network, I need to load the module here. I guess I should try to clarify in the UI that this step is for loading modules which are needed for the installation process. > > On this second install attempt, for some reason PCMCIA wasn't happy. I > > did try to configure it, but it failed for some mysterious reason. It > > didn't give any clear indication that PCMCIA had failed until later, > > when the second install bombed out and I started investigating... Yes, that's a good point. Failure in the PCMCIA subsystem, e.g. not able to load a card driver for an inserted card, isn't really sensed well. Hmm. Not even sure how I could go about fixing this. > > However, because it bombed out, it wasn't able to find the CD-ROM > > automatically. So the system went into what I later discovered was > > apt-setup, where one of the questions it asked me was whether I wanted > > the non-free software or not. I said yes, but given that CD-1 (which I > > had copied onto a spare partition) doesn't have non-free software, the > > debian configuration system bombed out that that point no obvious > > way of restarting it, and nothing on the system except the base system. > > I fiddled with it a while, and finally decided I was wasting my time, so > > I rebooted the system, and reinstalled a third time, blowing away > > everything from the 2nd try installation. > > I suppose you told apt-setup to use a mounted filesystem as its access > method? > > Apt-setup should be more robust than that -- it should notice apt has > failed and tell you and let you correct it. I'd like to try to reproduce > this problem. Yes, we should track this down and get a bug filed. > > Networking was not set up automatically for me. The fact that I was > > using a laptop with a PCMCIA networking card may have caused this; I > > don't know if a system with a hard-wired networking card would have > > fared better. I'm surprised that some kind of dhcp client i
Re: [VA-Debian] Comments from a first-time Debian install.....
I'm going to send this to debian-boot, it's the right place mostly and I think everyone will appreciate these comments. Ted, I have some comments (rather far) below, and you should know we're in the process of rewriting the whole installer and those of us on the debian-boot list are well aware of the problems you ran into. Ted T'so wrote: > I'm not on any of the Debian developer's mailing lists yet, and I didn't > want to send this to some inappropriate place. (I'd really rather not > replicate RMS's drive-by flaming on the tcl list from a few years ago. > :-) > > However, I thought some Debian developers might appreciate these notes > which I took as I tried for the first time to actually install Debian > from scratch, as opposed to using apt-get on a system which someone else > had set up for me. These notes were taken from a perspective of a Linux > expert, but someone who's still relatively new to Debian install > procedures. I've tried to add some comments about how a novice would > react when presented with some of the challenges I faced, though, and I > think the bottom line is that Debian's install has gone a long way from > when Marc helped me install Debian 2.0 back in June, 1999. But if I > needed to give my parents or some other non-technical friends/relatives > a Linux distribution to install, it wouldn't be Debian; Red Hat or > Caldera simply have much friendly install systems. > > Feel free to forward this (or pieces of it) wherever it might be > appropriate. > > - Ted > > > Comments on Debian 2.2 install > === > > > (This is my first time installing Debian unasisted. The first time was > with Debian 2.0, with Marc Merlin doing the install of the base system, > and my being left to answer the hundreds of questions with no way of > getting back to the question, and being asked many, many times where the > newserver was. Glad that's no longer a problem.) > > The debian install is much better than when I first saw it, but it > still has a lot of rough edges. Having tried Red Hat and Caldera's > installers, Debian still has a long way to go before a novice user > won't be intimidated by the install process. > > Initial setup > = > > Far, far too many decision points. It's good to give flexibility to the > expert, but for most users it's too much. Suggestion: have a "basic" > and "expert" modes, where the "expert" mode eliminates some of the > decision points, and have a "back" button!!! Having a nice flow where > you can either initialize another partition, or go on --- and then > having experimented with a choice, go back to a previous choice point > is very sound and basic UI desing principles. There's a reason why > Microsoft Wizards are appreciated by novice users; Debian should take > advantage of their millions spent in UI research. > > Another UI point. With three choices in the first few screens, it > will make it much more obvious which button is selected. Because the > background around each dialog box is blue, with blue meaning > "highlighted" and "red" meaning not highlighted", it's not clear which > is which. For a while I thought "red" meant highlighted > > I won't go into the X versus non-X installation, since there are some > real tradeoffs here, except to say that this kind of "warm and fuzzy" > thing certainly makes a difference with novice users. > > The first time I did an initial install, PCMCIA was not configured > properly. I have a Vaio 505TX, and this kind of PCMCIA CD-ROM install > has been problematic before with other distributions. It was able to > boot from the PCMCIA CD-ROM; that part worked fine. However, it > bombed out trying to find the kernel and modules. I tried for a > while, but it appears there's no way to support that directly from the > CD-ROM given my hardware configuration. So I booted back into > Windows, created a scratch partition, and copied the entire Debian > Potato 2.2 Binary-i386 R0 CD-ROM into that scratch partition and then > tried again. > > The second time I tried, I was able to load the kernel modules. This > screen here really needs simplifying. There's no reason to make the > user decide which modules should be loaded on a full system at such an > early point in the install. Regardless of where you fall on the > "modules should be dynamically loaded" versus the "modules should be > statically loaded at boot-time" argument, at the initial install time > only those modules which are desperately needed to install the system > should be asked for. If nothing else, deferring this means that the > installation system may have more resources at its disposal to provide > a more friendly interface to the user. > > On this second install attempt, for some reason PCMCIA wasn't happy. I > did try to configure it, but it failed for some mysterious reason. It > didn't give any clear indication that PC
