Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

I just tried the etch Beta3 kernel on my Beige G3 OldWorld PowerPC  
Macintosh.


Same results as noted in the original bugreport by this number.  It  
hangs almost immediately.  The picture of Tux never appears at the  
top of the screen.  See the original bug report for details.


Seriously,

Has *anybody* had any success getting the "Linux version 2.6.16-2- 
powerpc (Debian 2.6.16-17)" kernel to boot an OldWorld machine with  
BootX?  Or *any* kernel after 2.6.15?


What has changed between the Sarge kernel (which boots just fine) and  
this one that would have such a catastrophic effect?




Enjoy!

Rick



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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

Hi,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 03:19:18AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> Has *anybody* had any success getting the "Linux version 2.6.16-2- 
> powerpc (Debian 2.6.16-17)" kernel to boot an OldWorld machine with  
> BootX?  Or *any* kernel after 2.6.15?

I think the anwser is plainly no. :(

Well, you would be better off using miBoot anyway. I think I will
produce miBoot floppies for the last Debian kernel for you to try...

> What has changed between the Sarge kernel (which boots just fine) and  
> this one that would have such a catastrophic effect?

Maybe the image is too heavy, some kernel defines changed, or BootX
cannot find the sections of the image anymore? We cannot fiddle with
BootX source code to see what happens, but we will be able with miBoot
source code when it will be ready. :)

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 18, 2006, at 7:59 AM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:


Hi,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 03:19:18AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:

Has *anybody* had any success getting the "Linux version 2.6.16-2-
powerpc (Debian 2.6.16-17)" kernel to boot an OldWorld machine with
BootX?  Or *any* kernel after 2.6.15?


I think the anwser is plainly no. :(


Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld  
Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8




Well, you would be better off using miBoot anyway. I think I will
produce miBoot floppies for the last Debian kernel for you to try...


One thing I've discovered:  The miboot floppy at http:// 
people.debian.org/~wouter/d-i/powerpc-miboot/daily/powerpc/floppy/  
contain the "2.6.16-2-powerpc-miboot (Debian 2.6.16-7)" kernel, which  
is the same base version (different config, presumably) as the kernel  
on the beta3 CDs.  And that kernel (the one on the miboot floppy)  
boots just fine(*) on my beige G3.  So the problem seems to be a  
configuration issue, not anything fundamental.


(*) Well... almost "just fine".  There is a small problem with the  
video parameters -- some columns of the text on the screen seem to  
flicker.  If I could figure out how to modify the kernel command line  
arguments (specifically the video options) on the floppy, I might be  
able to fix that.  Interestingly, "works just fine" only applies to  
the "boot" floppy.  The "ofonlyboot" floppy does not work -- it gets  
the same symptoms as I described in Bug#369760, and as someone else  
has described in Bug#380187.






What has changed between the Sarge kernel (which boots just fine) and
this one that would have such a catastrophic effect?


Maybe the image is too heavy, some kernel defines changed, or BootX
cannot find the sections of the image anymore? We cannot fiddle with
BootX source code to see what happens, but we will be able with miBoot
source code when it will be ready. :)


Currently, miboot (leaving aside issues of "freeness") only works for  
floppies?  Do you think there is any chance of it's working for  
booting off of CDs or hard-disks, once we can fiddle with the source  
code?




Cheers,
--
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:44:23AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld  
> Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8

What is PTBs? :)

Well, aside the issue of booting, the kernel runs just
fine and so does the user space... As you can look at
, I think
it is partially admitted in "Oldworld powerpc boot floppies will not
work as miboot is not included".

> One thing I've discovered:  The miboot floppy at http:// 
> people.debian.org/~wouter/d-i/powerpc-miboot/daily/powerpc/floppy/  
> contain the "2.6.16-2-powerpc-miboot (Debian 2.6.16-7)" kernel, which  
> is the same base version (different config, presumably) as the kernel  
> on the beta3 CDs.  And that kernel (the one on the miboot floppy)  
> boots just fine(*) on my beige G3.  So the problem seems to be a  
> configuration issue, not anything fundamental.

I am glad to read it is nothing fundamental like the structure of
the kernel and I see Wouter has played a bit with it. :)

Indeed, I also experienced the same symptoms you describe when the
kernel is too large. It will be fixed when miBoot will be rebuildable
with the GNU toolchain.

> (*) Well... almost "just fine".  There is a small problem with the  
> video parameters -- some columns of the text on the screen seem to  
> flicker.  If I could figure out how to modify the kernel command line  
> arguments (specifically the video options) on the floppy, I might be  
> able to fix that.  Interestingly, "works just fine" only applies to  
> the "boot" floppy.  The "ofonlyboot" floppy does not work -- it gets  
> the same symptoms as I described in Bug#369760, and as someone else  
> has described in Bug#380187.

It is also scheduled to add the possiblity of adding kernel arguments
and even selecting different kernels, but in the mean time, you can do
that inside the kernel configuration, as there is an option for that.

> Currently, miboot (leaving aside issues of "freeness") only works for  
> floppies?  Do you think there is any chance of it's working for  
> booting off of CDs or hard-disks, once we can fiddle with the source  
> code?

It works for hard disks too, but as I explain in my other post some
hours ago, it is a painful process to setup. It does not work on CD,
because there is no low-level MacOSROM calls for that in the code.
However, that could also be added by using EMILE macoslib which is
what we intend to do, but the CD part will only be available when
Laurent will have done what he says at 
under Latest News/Next step.

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:


What is PTBs? :)


Powers that be...

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:





Wow!  great!  I'm really glad somebody's working on that.

Do you think it will be ready for inclusion in etch at release time?

Rick

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:


Well, aside the issue of booting, the kernel runs just
fine and so does the user space... As you can look at
, I think
it is partially admitted in "Oldworld powerpc boot floppies will not
work as miboot is not included".


I think that is just referring to the fact that miboot is not (yet)  
"free" so it can't be included in an official debian distribution.   
As noted, wouter provides floppy images with a working miboot and a  
working kernel (almost -- modulo the video problems I've mentioned.)


I don't think the errata takes any notice of the fact that, quite  
independent of "freeness" considerations, there is *no* working boot  
loader for the 2.6.16 kernel on an OldWorld Mac.  I've tried both  
bootx and quik and neither of them work on my beige G3.  In it's  
current state, even if it were free, miboot would not be a workable  
solution because it only works from floppies.


Rick

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 03:06:03PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> I don't think the errata takes any notice of the fact that, quite  
> independent of "freeness" considerations, there is *no* working boot  
> loader for the 2.6.16 kernel on an OldWorld Mac.  I've tried both  
> bootx and quik and neither of them work on my beige G3.  In it's  
> current state, even if it were free, miboot would not be a workable  
> solution because it only works from floppies.

Well, it works on a hard disk, but as I said earlier, it is not
trivial to get it working by hand.

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:56:52PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> Do you think it will be ready for inclusion in etch at release time?

Hard to say, since Piotr and I have no deadline... :)

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:52:24PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> >What is PTBs? :)
> Powers that be...

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:44:23AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld
> Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8

Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
the efforts to get it working until now are worthless. The individual
behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven without any
concern for the PowerPC port well being.

Killing the OldWorld subarch in the PowerPC port would simply get Piotr
(I think) and I (surely) not caring anymore about miBoot... After
all, I know how to proceed with it the hard way, so the installation
easiness does not matter to me. It is only more fun for me for it to
become easy. :)

I sincerely hope I will succeed getting an access to the
debian-installer SVN repository to work on miboot targets and on
miboot-installer...

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:58:07PM +0200, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:52:24PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > >What is PTBs? :)
> > Powers that be...
> 
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:44:23AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> > Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld
> > Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8
> 
> Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
> the efforts to get it working until now are worthless. The individual
> behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven without any
> concern for the PowerPC port well being.

There is already an alternative installer planed once etch is released, which
will contain fixes for all those issues the d-i team left dying on the
road-side.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Sven Luther]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 12:18:23AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:58:07PM +0200, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:52:24PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> > > On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > > >What is PTBs? :)
> > > Powers that be...
> > 
> > On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:44:23AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> > > Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld
> > > Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8
> > 
> > Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
> > the efforts to get it working until now are worthless. The individual
> > behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven without any
> > concern for the PowerPC port well being.
> 
> There is already an alternative installer planed once etch is released, which
> will contain fixes for all those issues the d-i team left dying on the
> road-side.

all those powerpc issues.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 18, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:


On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:52:24PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:

On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:

What is PTBs? :)

Powers that be...


On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:44:23AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:

Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld
Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8


Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
the efforts to get it working until now are worthless. The individual
behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven without any
concern for the PowerPC port well being.

Killing the OldWorld subarch in the PowerPC port would simply get  
Piotr

(I think) and I (surely) not caring anymore about miBoot... After
all, I know how to proceed with it the hard way, so the installation
easiness does not matter to me. It is only more fun for me for it to
become easy. :)

I sincerely hope I will succeed getting an access to the
debian-installer SVN repository to work on miboot targets and on
miboot-installer...


I have to agree that your work on miboot is the only real light I can  
see in the darkness surrounding Debian support of OldWorld  
PowerMacs.  I sincerely wish you luck in getting the resources  
(physical and political) that you need to finish the job.  If there  
is anything I can do to help with the process, please do not hesitate  
to ask.



Rick

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 18, 2006, at 6:43 PM, Sven Luther wrote:


On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 12:18:23AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:58:07PM +0200, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:52:24PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:

On Aug 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:

What is PTBs? :)

Powers that be...


On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 11:44:23AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:

Perhaps the Debian PTBs should simply admit that PowerPC OldWorld
Macintosh is an unsupported sub-arch for Debian etch?   /-8


Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
the efforts to get it working until now are worthless. The  
individual

behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven without any
concern for the PowerPC port well being.


There is already an alternative installer planed once etch is  
released, which
will contain fixes for all those issues the d-i team left dying on  
the

road-side.


all those powerpc issues.


Thanks!  If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.

Rick

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Friday 18 August 2006 22:49, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:56:52PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> > Do you think it will be ready for inclusion in etch at release time?
> Hard to say, since Piotr and I have no deadline... :)

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean, you and Piotr only work on 
this with low priority, I cannot say anything except "a pity" :)

If you mean, you don't know the deadline to get it into etch, I can help:

According to 
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/08/msg5.html the final 
build for d-i will be on October the 18th. So, your deadline is in two or 
three weeks I would say (if your changes are non-intrusive...), so that we 
have time for testing and integrating.

So, to summarize: be quick, if you want this in etch. I'm happy to assist in 
testing, writing documentation and commiting tested stuff to the svn (in 
cooperation with Frans.)

And kudos for your efforts to free miboot and make it work on harddrives!


regards,
Holger 


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

Hi,

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 01:30:20PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Friday 18 August 2006 22:49, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 02:56:52PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> > > Do you think it will be ready for inclusion in etch at release time?
> > Hard to say, since Piotr and I have no deadline... :)
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean, you and Piotr only work on 
> this with low priority, I cannot say anything except "a pity" :)

I did not mean it is low priority. ;) I meant we are not paid
Canonical employees to do a job following a timeline. Piotr seems
to work on miBoot on week-ends and nights (an all-nighter actually,
it seems...) when he feels like it and I am a bit the same... It is
enjoyable work after all, though it seems I have currently more time
than him. Therefore, be assured it will be done, but I cannot guaranty
that it will be ready for Etch.

And frankly, come one... miBoot is 10 years old inactive software,
so I think there is no hurry. On a side note, I am also fscked up in
NM without even starting, because someone in the Front Desk seems to
dislike me, even though I maintain 11 packages in Debian, so there
is really no hurry...

> If you mean, you don't know the deadline to get it into etch, I can help:
> 
> According to 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/08/msg5.html the final 
> build for d-i will be on October the 18th. So, your deadline is in two or 
> three weeks I would say (if your changes are non-intrusive...), so that we 
> have time for testing and integrating.

It is really not enough time... :(

> So, to summarize: be quick, if you want this in etch. I'm happy to assist in 
> testing, writing documentation and commiting tested stuff to the svn (in 
> cooperation with Frans.)

I asked Christian Perrier to add my account to the d-i Alioth project
to work on miboot targets and miboot-installer. I am still waiting
for an answer, but I know Christian has a family to run in the
week-end... ;)

I am also really afraid to interact with Frans, because I would rather
not be treated as dipshit like Sven was. :(

> And kudos for your efforts to free miboot and make it work on harddrives!

Thanks and cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Aurélien,

please don't cc: me - I'm subscribed to both lists, it's against the mailing 
lists code of conduct (something you agree on when joining debian..) and it's 
annoying. Thanks.

On Saturday 19 August 2006 14:05, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean, you and Piotr only work
> > on this with low priority, I cannot say anything except "a pity" :)
> I did not mean it is low priority. ;) I meant we are not paid
> Canonical employees to do a job following a timeline. 

Ahh.

> And frankly, come one... miBoot is 10 years old inactive software,
> so I think there is no hurry.

That's right. But also machines, for which miboot is useful, are also at least 
10 years old and get less useful each day^wmonth.

> On a side note, I am also fscked up in 
> NM without even starting, because someone in the Front Desk seems to
> dislike me, even though I maintain 11 packages in Debian, so there
> is really no hurry...

I don't see, what this has to do with it. 

But anyway, you're only waiting for an advocate for five weeks and the number 
of AMs is lower than the number of people in NM - so this is quite natural. 

That said, I dont understand the comment on your application ("on hold until 
2006-11 waiting for visible activity") either, if you maintain 11 packages in 
debian :-) Did you ask Myon why he made that comment?

> > If you mean, you don't know the deadline to get it into etch, I can help:
> > According to
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/08/msg5.html the
> > final build for d-i will be on October the 18th. So, your deadline is in
> > two or three weeks I would say (if your changes are non-intrusive...), so
> > that we have time for testing and integrating.
> It is really not enough time... :(

Pity. But sometimes wonders happen :)

> I asked Christian Perrier to add my account to the d-i Alioth project
> to work on miboot targets and miboot-installer.

You don't need an account to do the work. The svn allows anonymous checkouts, 
so you can work on it and provide patches, which other people will hapily 
commit (with crediting you) if they work. I very certainly would/will.

> I am also really afraid to interact with Frans, because I would rather
> not be treated as dipshit like Sven was. :(

Frans is a nice guy. Just don't constantly throw dipshit like Sven did and 
neither Frans nor anybody else will treat you badly.

(Sven is a nice guy, too. But... ...I'm tired of this discussion so I wont go 
into more detail here. I feel I've said too much already.)

> Thanks and cheers,

to you too!
Holger


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 03:15:21PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> please don't cc: me - I'm subscribed to both lists, it's against the mailing 
> lists code of conduct (something you agree on when joining debian..) and it's 
> annoying. Thanks.

Sure, no problem and I apologise, which leads me to: how would I know
you are subscribed? ;)

> > And frankly, come one... miBoot is 10 years old inactive software,
> > so I think there is no hurry.
> 
> That's right. But also machines, for which miboot is useful, are also at 
> least 
> 10 years old and get less useful each day^wmonth.

I did not say the contrary, but I will *not* work under pressure
from someone I do not work for. I only say Benjamin was inactive with
miBoot for a long time, because he does not use it personally anymore
and he is not paid by IBM to work on it. (His own words if I dig in
my private mails from 2 years ago...)

> > On a side note, I am also fscked up in 
> > NM without even starting, because someone in the Front Desk seems to
> > dislike me, even though I maintain 11 packages in Debian, so there
> > is really no hurry...
> 
> I don't see, what this has to do with it. 

How would I put it? Lack of motivation, be considered as nothing,
etc...

> But anyway, you're only waiting for an advocate for five weeks and the number 
> of AMs is lower than the number of people in NM - so this is quite natural. 

No, I am not, I am stalled in NM by Christoph Berg.

> That said, I dont understand the comment on your application ("on hold until 
> 2006-11 waiting for visible activity") either, if you maintain 11 packages in 
> debian :-) Did you ask Myon why he made that comment?

Because there is no so-called "visible activity" of me on
mailing-lists, on Google, and on the BTS... I still fail to see why
I cannot be in the state "waiting for AM" which I would be satisfied
with if it was the case...

> > I asked Christian Perrier to add my account to the d-i Alioth project
> > to work on miboot targets and miboot-installer.
> 
> You don't need an account to do the work. The svn allows anonymous checkouts, 
> so you can work on it and provide patches, which other people will hapily 
> commit (with crediting you) if they work. I very certainly would/will.

Oh, come on, I hope you will not ask me to send patches like a dog
following his master, as d-i people did with Sven... They are 149 d-i
members, why can it not be 150? Am I a monster who will destroy d-i
SVN repository on a whim?... Hell, no! :( I like Debian too much to
do that.

> > I am also really afraid to interact with Frans, because I would rather
> > not be treated as dipshit like Sven was. :(
> 
> Frans is a nice guy. Just don't constantly throw dipshit like Sven did and 
> neither Frans nor anybody else will treat you badly.

OK, thanks to put it that way, so I am awaiting an account to work
on miBoot support in Debian Installer.

> (Sven is a nice guy, too. But... ...I'm tired of this discussion so I wont go 
> into more detail here. I feel I've said too much already.)

...

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Frans Pop]

On Saturday 19 August 2006 14:05, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> I did not mean it is low priority. ;) I meant we are not paid
> Canonical employees to do a job following a timeline.

Not sure what this has to do with things as practically nobody on this 
project is employed by Canonical. I know I'm not...

> On a side note, I am also fscked up in NM without even starting, because
> someone in the Front Desk seems to dislike me, even though I maintain 11
> packages in Debian, so there is really no hurry...

I hope you can back up this statement as it seems rather slanderous to the 
front desk... It also seems totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Also, complaining about it publicly like this hardly seems likely to help 
get them to like you more than however much they like you currently.

! On Saturday 19 August 2006 15:15, Holger Levsen wrote:
! > That said, I dont understand the comment on your application ("on hold
! > until 2006-11 waiting for visible activity") either, if you maintain
! > 11 packages in debian :-) Did you ask Myon why he made that comment?

I would guess it is because the comment is from 2006-07-12 and the uploads 
of all 9 packages currently maintained by Aurélien were first uploaded 
under his name _after_ that date [1].
So it rather looks to me as if Myon may have been correct at the time he 
wrote the comment and that comment was what prompted Aurélien to take 
over the packages.

> I asked Christian Perrier to add my account to the d-i Alioth project
> to work on miboot targets and miboot-installer. I am still waiting
> for an answer, but I know Christian has a family to run in the
> week-end... ;)

Such requests really should be sent to the list and not privately. As a 
general rule we only add people to the project after we have seen some 
contributions from them, so I suggest you start by filing patches.
If those look good, then you'll find you'll be dragged into the project 
soon enough :-)

> I am also really afraid to interact with Frans, because I would rather
> not be treated as dipshit like Sven was. :(

Why don't you try interacting with me before making assumptions?
I have explained the reasons why Sven was removed from the project often 
enough and also that it was _not_ because of personal dislike.

Cheers,
FJP

[1] http://qa.debian.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Sven Luther]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 03:15:21PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > I am also really afraid to interact with Frans, because I would rather
> > not be treated as dipshit like Sven was. :(
> 
> Frans is a nice guy. Just don't constantly throw dipshit like Sven did and 
> neither Frans nor anybody else will treat you badly.

I am sorry, but Frans may seem a very nice guy on the outside, but the way he
(and a few other d-i team members, but frans was the only one officially aware
of my situation), is the worst human and social behaviour i have seen from any
DD since all those 8 years i have been a DD myself.

The worst thing is that he showed not the least hint of regret for his
actions, and that most people either actively supported him, or chose to
ignore the issue.

> (Sven is a nice guy, too. But... ...I'm tired of this discussion so I wont go 
> into more detail here. I feel I've said too much already.)

Yeah, but i was more important than Frans, and since i didn't show enough
respect, ...

Sven Luther


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Saturday 19 August 2006 16:17, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> Sure, no problem and I apologise, which leads me to: how would I know
> you are subscribed? ;)

Thanks for caring! :)

Of course you cannot know if someone is subscribed. But you can know that the 
default is not to cc: people and assume they're either subscribed or read via 
the web-interface, are subscribed to the bugs or whatever. The list policy 
is, that people who want cc:s ask, and that the rest doesnt want cc:s.

If you really really want the sender to be notified, bcc: works better. This 
way, at least that person isn't cc:ed on all following replies.

> > > And frankly, come one... miBoot is 10 years old inactive software,
> > > so I think there is no hurry.
> >
> > That's right. But also machines, for which miboot is useful, are also at
> > least 10 years old and get less useful each day^wmonth.
>
> I did not say the contrary, but I will *not* work under pressure
> from someone I do not work for. 

I fail to see what this has to do with anything mentioned above. Noone wants 
to work under pressure, especially in a volunteer project.

> > > On a side note, I am also fscked up in
> > > NM without even starting, because someone in the Front Desk seems to
> > > dislike me, even though I maintain 11 packages in Debian, so there
> > > is really no hurry...
> > I don't see, what this has to do with it.
> How would I put it? Lack of motivation, be considered as nothing,
> etc...

I understand, but...

> > But anyway, you're only waiting for an advocate for five weeks and the
> > number of AMs is lower than the number of people in NM - so this is quite
> > natural.
> No, I am not, I am stalled in NM by Christoph Berg.

from your reply (and Frans too) it seems you haven't asked Christoph if he's 
willing to reevalute the sitation or how he came to that conclusion in the 
first place.

Because, the procedure you're in is new, checking if NMs have done any work 
before, has only been done like this since very recently. So if you would 
have given feedback, maybe the form-mail can be improved - I guess it says 
something like "we've put you on hold, please inform us if you think this is 
not correct or not correct anymore" - but maybe the last sentence is missing 
or whatever. 

But, whining doesnt help for sure. Especially in an unrelated thread. It is 
much more likely to bring you into a bad light then to actually change that 
situation. 

> > That said, I dont understand the comment on your application ("on hold
> > until 2006-11 waiting for visible activity") either, if you maintain 11
> > packages in debian :-) Did you ask Myon why he made that comment?
>
> Because there is no so-called "visible activity" of me on
> mailing-lists, on Google, and on the BTS... I still fail to see why
> I cannot be in the state "waiting for AM" which I would be satisfied
> with if it was the case...

Disclaimer: I'm in NM myself too :) But as said before: if only you had asked 
instead of complaining. I guess the answer is simple: the distinction is 
done, to make Frontdesk life easier: NMs marked "on hold" and "waiting for 
AM" are both waiting for AM, only that those on hold are not ready yet. (And 
thus don't need to be considered when a spare ressource, an AM, becomes 
available.)

If Christoph would have thought you're not suited (yet) to become a DD you 
would have got the status "rejected". But you're on hold and you've picked up 
packages since then. Whooohoo! Tell that to frontdesk, instead of 
complaining!!

As said: this is a more or less educated guess.

> > > I asked Christian Perrier to add my account to the d-i Alioth project
> > > to work on miboot targets and miboot-installer.
> > You don't need an account to do the work. The svn allows anonymous
> > checkouts, so you can work on it and provide patches, which other people
> > will hapily commit (with crediting you) if they work. I very certainly
> > would/will.
> Oh, come on, I hope you will not ask me to send patches like a dog
> following his master, as d-i people did with Sven... 

Oh come on, do you really think you made a good impression with that comment. 
I would say the opposite is true :(

> They are 149 d-i 
> members, why can it not be 150?

Most all of them sent many patches before they got commit access. There are 
exceptions, but the general rule is like this. To give one prominent example: 
g-i was pretty usable before the first commit to svn was allowed. 

> OK, thanks to put it that way, so I am awaiting an account to work
> on miBoot support in Debian Installer.

Don't just wait. Do useful work and you will see people will come to you, 
asking you to join. But without evidence, that a.) you work well and b.) you 
work well in this team, it's quite unlikely you will get access just because 
you asked.

Or you might explain what you could do with svn _write_ access what you cannot 
do now. But I asked you that in the previous mail already :) If you need help 
with building d-

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Sven Luther]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 05:21:50PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> Why don't you try interacting with me before making assumptions?
> I have explained the reasons why Sven was removed from the project often 
> enough and also that it was _not_ because of personal dislike.

For someone who had no personal dislike, you sure used a very personal weapon
to get ride of me, i don't think anyone before you in debian has resorted to
basser and more indecent behaviour before you did.

Sven Luther


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Harold Johnson]

Does anyone know of an online tutorial, designed for laymen, on how to install and use miBoot?  I'm tech-savvy but somewhat obtuse when it comes to compiling and all that, but I can get through the task (which is kind of fun, actually) once I have enough of a starting point.  Unfortunately, I'm not finding that starting point.
Here are some of the resources I've gathered on installing/using miBoot. There's the debootloaders index pointed to previously in this thread:
ftp://alioth.debian.org/pub/debootloaders/miboot/
A HOWTO document there appears to be very thorough, for those who know a thing or two about compiling/building software.  Again, I'd gladly follow this process, if I even knew where to begin.  I've performed a "make" and a "./configure" and a "make install" before, but only by following step-by-step instructions for building relatively simple pieces of software.
I booted from the CD image I downloaded from the following location:http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=10972
The image I selected was "miBoot image, Linux kernel 2.4.27 (incl. Debian Sarge installer)".  This is able to boot my PowerBook G3 "Wallstreet 2", but only for a few seconds before the menu goes kaput.  Examining the image more closely today, I've found that the CD is intended to boot NuBus PowerMacs; my PowerBook is an OldWorld, so it won't work for my machine.
Then there's the floppy images (also mentioned previously on this list), which I'm now going to try:http://people.debian.org/~wouter/d-i/powerpc-miboot/daily/powerpc/floppy/
Still, I have to figure out how to make the physical floppies out of these images.  That I'm sure I can figure out, but it's unclear to me whether they are intended to work for my particular setup (an OldWorld PowerBook G3 "Wallstreet").
Again, my purpose in this message is to inquire about some generally easy-to-follow documentation any of you may know of regarding how to install and use miBoot, so that I may then install and use Debian on my OldWorld PowerBook.  I've searched the web using a variety of search engines, and though there is certainly some information out there, much of the resources I've stumbled onto are difficult for the non-programmer to understand.  I would be willing to compose a layman's version of the steps required to get miBoot going, but I need to first understand how to install and use it myself.
Thanks again,HaroldOn 8/19/06, Holger Levsen <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,On Saturday 19 August 2006 16:17, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:> Sure, no problem and I apologise, which leads me to: how would I know> you are subscribed? ;)Thanks for caring! :)Of course you cannot know if someone is subscribed. But you can know that the
default is not to cc: people and assume they're either subscribed or read viathe web-interface, are subscribed to the bugs or whatever. The list policyis, that people who want cc:s ask, and that the rest doesnt want cc:s.
If you really really want the sender to be notified, bcc: works better. Thisway, at least that person isn't cc:ed on all following replies.> > > And frankly, come one... miBoot is 10 years old inactive software,
> > > so I think there is no hurry.> >> > That's right. But also machines, for which miboot is useful, are also at> > least 10 years old and get less useful each day^wmonth.
>
> I did not say the contrary, but I will *not* work under pressure> from someone I do not work for.I fail to see what this has to do with anything mentioned above. Noone wantsto work under pressure, especially in a volunteer project.
> > > On a side note, I am also fscked up in> > > NM without even starting, because someone in the Front Desk seems to> > > dislike me, even though I maintain 11 packages in Debian, so there
> > > is really no hurry...> > I don't see, what this has to do with it.> How would I put it? Lack of motivation, be considered as nothing,> etc...I understand, but...
> > But anyway, you're only waiting for an advocate for five weeks and the
> > number of AMs is lower than the number of people in NM - so this is quite> > natural.> No, I am not, I am stalled in NM by Christoph Berg.from your reply (and Frans too) it seems you haven't asked Christoph if he's
willing to reevalute the sitation or how he came to that conclusion in thefirst place.Because, the procedure you're in is new, checking if NMs have done any workbefore, has only been done like this since very recently. So if you would
have given feedback, maybe the form-mail can be improved - I guess it sayssomething like "we've put you on hold, please inform us if you think this isnot correct or not correct anymore" - but maybe the last sentence is missing
or whatever.But, whining doesnt help for sure. Especially in an unrelated thread. It ismuch more likely to bring you into a bad light then to actually change thatsituation.> > That said, I dont understand the comment on your application ("on hold
> > until 2006-11 waiting for visible activity") either, if you maintain 11> >

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Rick Thomas]

Well... That's interesting news.  And I'm glad you're having success  
with your system.


But, unfortunately, the bottom line for this bug report is still that  
nobody has yet succeeded in getting the 2.6.16 kernel to boot under  
BootX.


Keep in touch.  I'll be particularly interested in hearing of your  
experiences upgrading to Dapper.


Enjoy!

Rick


On Aug 20, 2006, at 3:25 AM, Harold Johnson wrote:

Oh, and since I forgot to mention it, the kernel version I  
currently (at this moment) have installed is 2.6.12-9; that's after  
simply installing Breezy.  Once I upgrade to Dapper again, I'll be  
using whatever version that is -- or I'll jump to Debian and do the  
same.  I'll try to remember to post that version number here so  
that you'll know if I got up to 2.6.16 using my method.  All I know  
for certain is that I've been able to get to Dapper using this  
installation method in the past.


Harold

On 8/19/06, Harold Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You have great timing; I wouldn't have had that answer for you  
earlier today, because I wasn't certain which kernel version I had  
installed.  I am writing down the entire process of setting up a  
triple-booting system, which will be running Linux, OS X, and OS  
9.  (This has been done many times before, I'm sure, but not by  
me!)  Thus far, I've installed OS 9, Ubuntu Linux, and I'm  
currently installing OS X (Panther) on the third (and final)  
partition.


I'll be adding to some online documentation, but hopefully the  
following info. will fill in some of the gaps:


-- 2 Mac OS (hfs+) partitions and one unallocated space using an OS  
9 installation disk.  The first partition will be for OS X, the  
second is for OS 9, and the free space is for Linux. 

-- After installing OS 9 and BootX, installed Ubuntu Server  
(Breezy).  This info. is probably the most helpful for you; I've  
tried on multiple occasions to install the latest flavors of Debian  
using BootX, to no avail.  The same goes with the latest Ubuntu  
versions (Dapper); only Breezy installs on my OldWorld PowerBook.   
Once I've installed Breezy, it's easy enough to upgrade to Dapper  
by simply editing the repositories (replacing all instances of  
"Breezy" with "Dapper") and then using apt-get to update the  
system.  I imagine it's possible to use this same technique to  
update to the latest version of Debian; wouldn't you think? 


Thanks for sending along your script,

Harold


On 8/19/06, Rick Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Aug 19, 2006, at 6:29 PM, Harold Johnson wrote:

> In the meantime, I can continue using BootX -- not a real elegant
> solution, IMHO, but it works.

Hi Harold,

What magic did you have to use to get BootX to boot a 2.6.16 kernel
for you?

Thanks!

Rick






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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Joey Hess]

Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
> the efforts to get it working until now are worthless.

No, it would simply be a statement of fact. If d-i cannot be made to
support oldworld powerpc in time for etch despite everyone's work, then
it makes sense to document this.

> The individual behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven
> without any concern for the PowerPC port well being.

If a port cannot survive if one very disruptive and hard to work with
individual is kicked out of one project, then it has *very* big
problems.

> I sincerely hope I will succeed getting an access to the
> debian-installer SVN repository to work on miboot targets and on
> miboot-installer...

It's trivial to get access to the d-i svn repository. Simply send
working patches to debian-boot, once we know you and your work you will
be added in short order.

-- 
see shy jo


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Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Sven Luther]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 02:33:31PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
> > the efforts to get it working until now are worthless.
> 
> No, it would simply be a statement of fact. If d-i cannot be made to
> support oldworld powerpc in time for etch despite everyone's work, then
> it makes sense to document this.
> 
> > The individual behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven
> > without any concern for the PowerPC port well being.
> 
> If a port cannot survive if one very disruptive and hard to work with
> individual is kicked out of one project, then it has *very* big
> problems.

Maybe, but then, i saw little by little the other powerpc porters leaving, and
when i had trouble following on it, i was left fully alone, and to quote
Frans: "We know sven will eventually fix it, so we don't care". And you
accused the porters of lazyness in the post-sarge release time, but weren't
interested in any plan to ease their work.

Also, you put all the blame on me, saying i am disruptive and hard to work
with, but you and Frans also had a high part in this whole mess, especially
Frans, who started somewhen last fall to take me as a scapegoat and stuff.
Just reread our exchanges, each time i said something, in which i was wrong
sometimes, but othertimes not, i got an almost immediate bashing reply from
frans. 

As thus, i think that a project who has to kick out one of its member, because
it is unable to cope with someone who suggests and want to discuss novel ideas
to make things better (and i never did more than suggest and try to open
discussions, i never, despite the d-i team's accusations, force my ideas on
anybody or other such), is a project who has indeed a *very* big problem.

> > I sincerely hope I will succeed getting an access to the
> > debian-installer SVN repository to work on miboot targets and on
> > miboot-installer...
> 
> It's trivial to get access to the d-i svn repository. Simply send
> working patches to debian-boot, once we know you and your work you will
> be added in short order.

Unless you are named Sven Luther, right ? 

Hurt,

Sven Luther
> 
> -- 
> see shy jo

Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Aurélien GÉRÔME]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 02:33:31PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
> > Okay, in that case, I strongly disagree. That would be like saying
> > the efforts to get it working until now are worthless.
> 
> No, it would simply be a statement of fact. If d-i cannot be made to
> support oldworld powerpc in time for etch despite everyone's work, then
> it makes sense to document this.

I thought we were talking about dropping it, didn't we? If it is only
to document it, saying it does not work properly yet, but will work
for etch+1, it is completely fine with me.

> > The individual behind debian-installer has already kicked out Sven
> > without any concern for the PowerPC port well being.
> 
> If a port cannot survive if one very disruptive and hard to work with
> individual is kicked out of one project, then it has *very* big
> problems.

Well, I am very surprised every times someone says that. Sven is a
person with who I work and I really enjoy it. He is very knowledgeable
on *PowerPC* hardware, low-level programming, kernel packaging,
d-i integration, and he has a global overview and understanding of
the Debian PowerPC port. I fail to see another person like him being
*currently* active in Debian/PowerPC at several levels and for all
these years... Of course, I am sure there were people like this
involved in the past. :)

> > I sincerely hope I will succeed getting an access to the
> > debian-installer SVN repository to work on miboot targets and on
> > miboot-installer...
> 
> It's trivial to get access to the d-i svn repository. Simply send
> working patches to debian-boot, once we know you and your work you will
> be added in short order.

It is scheduled, ranting will not serve me anyway and made me felt
stupid enough not to ever start again. I still hope not to be treated
like Sven was for PowerPC-related work in d-i. We will see in some
weeks whether or not I will end up getting bashed on debian-boot...

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.   Aurélien GÉRÔME
: :'  :
`. `'`   Free Software Developer
  `- Unix Sys & Net Admin


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Re: Bug#382129: Beta3 won't boot on OldWorld PowerPC Mac

[Christoph Berg]

Re: Aurélien GÉRÔME 2006-08-19 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On a side note, I am also fscked up in 
> NM without even starting, because someone in the Front Desk seems to
> dislike me, even though I maintain 11 packages in Debian, so there
> is really no hurry...

I think you mean "even though I only started maintaining packages
a few weeks ago".

Christoph
-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/


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