Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Wednesday 07 January 2009, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > 1) Install a standard system (say from netboot, netinst, or because you > only have regular CD #1 not the xfce CD #1) You can also very easily install alternative desktop environments using the buisinesscard or netinst CDs, or DVDs. See the recent "Bits from the Debian CD team" on d-devel-announce. If you know you will be using a network mirror you can even select the correct desktop task with the regular CD by adding 'desktop=xfce' as boot parameter. The same works for netboot and hd-media installs. > 2) You want xfce installed, now what? > > 2a) Using aptitude interactively by select Task|Xfce Desktop > Environment: > gnome-session is pulled in along with nautilus and other gnome > things Note that you need to select both the xfce-desktop _and_ the desktop task if you do the install from inside aptitude's frontend. > 2a.1) you can avoid some of this if you know that you need to say > without-recommends This is a general difference between new installs and using aptitude interactively. For installing tasks I would always suggest not selecting recommends. > 2a.2) To avoid gnome-session (which is pulled in by gdm) you have to > manually deselect it (and know that it's there, rather than being > surprised by it later as I was - in my case because my $HOME had > originally been used for GNOME and was later converted to XFCE when I > did a reinstall I had a system that wouldn't start the desktop because > gnome-session instead of xfce-session was starting) You can also, instead of selecting the whole task, select the individual packages belonging to the task. If you do that in the correct order (xfce packages before gdm), you can avoid gnome-session. This use-case (selecting xfce-desktop or lxde-desktop tasks using the aptitude frontend) is the only reason why switching gdm to xdm could still be considered. I expect that it would improve the user-friendliness of installing the tasks by reducing the number of dependencies that get pulled in unexpected/unwanted, but this cannot be tested other than by doing an actual upload of tasksel. However, I agree with Corsac that that's not the primairy use-case for tasks and so leaving things as they are for Lenny is a valid choice. > 2b) aptitude from the command-line: > I haven't tried this yet because I didn't know about it; presumably > using tasks like tasksel -t emits will work I have tested this and it does work correctly; it just pulls in the minimal GNOME packages that are the result of gdm being included. In my tests gnome-session or nautilus etc did not get installed. > 2c) apt-get from the command-line: > Suffers from the same problem as 2a unless you make sure that > xfce4-session is *before* gdm. It's also not as easy because you need > to know that packages you want installed AFAIK apt-get does not know about tasks, so basically you're just installing some random selection of packages. > 2d) tasksel > * Need to set tasksel/desktop to xfce > * Don't know if it'll work correctly or not given Frans statement that >tasksel isn't meant to be used this way. Well, it is meant to be used this way, and it does work if done correctly. But doing it correctly for desktop tasks other then GNOME is very much not trivial ATM. The correct way using tasksel is: 1) ensure that tasksel/desktop is set correctly 2a) run 'tasksel' OR 2b) run 'tasksel --install desktop' > Maybe Frans can suggest something about tasksel that would make this > work? I've added some comments to #510928. > aptitude has a bug The main bug in aptitude is that when a task is selected in the aptitude frontend, alternative dependencies are not handled correctly: if an alternative dependency is satisfied by a package in the task, aptitude should not also be selecting the primairy alternative. Example: 'AAA depends XXX | YYY' and 'BBB depends YYY'. If AAA and BBB are both in the task, then only YYY should be selected. Currently aptitude _may_ also select XXX, presumably if AAA is processed before BBB. Another bug in aptitude is that it *only* considers tasks definitions from the Packages file (based on Task: fields). AFAICT it does read /usr/share/tasksel/debian-tasks.desc, but seems to ignore the possibility that the task may define the packages belonging to the task as a list inside that file itself instead of using Packages. > taskel doesn't support xfce as a desktop choice unless you use the xfce > cd, which is a bug IMO That is not correct. It does support it, but not in an obvious and user-friendly manner. > Frans: would that work? How difficult is adding a debconf question for > the desktop (which would default to gnome in d-i?) That is not an acceptable solution. The only real option here is some fundamental redesign of tasksel. > Frans: also are you the one to talk to about tasksel? No, not really. And I think I'm going to make this my last post to this BR. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE,
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On jeu, 2009-01-08 at 00:21 -0500, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > Ah! Aptitude also has the ability to select tasks. One of the > categories in the defaults displays is 'Tasks' and under that there > are > things like 'End User' and 'Localisation'. For XFCE you open 'End > User' and the highlight 'Xfce Desktop Environment' then press '+', > which select the packages in the task for installation. Yesh I know. But afaik tasks are only displayed by aptitude, it doesn't have the choice on what they represent. I guess when one runs “aptitude install it doesn't calls tasksel install which would then call aptitude install which would loop :) But the point is, the source for tasks is tasksel. Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:34:53 +0100 Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > On mar, 2009-01-06 at 20:01 -0500, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > > > > It occurs to me the reason you are confused is that when I 'Standard > > System' you are thinking I mean 'typical system' when in fact I mean > > that I select the option 'Standard System' on the tasksel menu. > > No I'm confused because you select tasks in aptitude. And tasks are > tasksel job. Ah! Aptitude also has the ability to select tasks. One of the categories in the defaults displays is 'Tasks' and under that there are things like 'End User' and 'Localisation'. For XFCE you open 'End User' and the highlight 'Xfce Desktop Environment' then press '+', which select the packages in the task for installation. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On mar, 2009-01-06 at 20:01 -0500, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > > It occurs to me the reason you are confused is that when I 'Standard > System' you are thinking I mean 'typical system' when in fact I mean > that I select the option 'Standard System' on the tasksel menu. No I'm confused because you select tasks in aptitude. And tasks are tasksel job. Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:48:37 +0100 Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > > Anyway, I'm *really* lost about where we are, what the problem really > is, and what exactly we are wanting to do to solve it. > It occurs to me the reason you are confused is that when I 'Standard System' you are thinking I mean 'typical system' when in fact I mean that I select the option 'Standard System' on the tasksel menu. Tasksel's standard system mean a base install + packages with priority: standard, which gives you a 'useful character mode operating system' (according to policy). There is a bug on taskel because of the terminology being confusing, and if I am right that this what confused you perhaps you'll want to add your comments. I've obviously been using the installer too often lately. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:48:37 +0100 Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > On mar, 2009-01-06 at 16:06 -0500, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > > Perhaps it's only when one tries to install xfce after doing a > > standard > > install and not when using an xfce cd (that's when it showed up for > > me). So probably tasksel is fine, the problem is that if you > > apt-get or aptitude|select task, then it pulls in the stuff. > > Nautilus and that > > are only probably only pulled in because of recommends when > > installing after-the-fact and gnome-session is a bug in aptitude > > and apt. > > Wait. It's been days that we look for a bug at install time. > > If you want to install xfce *after* that, just use apt-get install > xfce4 xfce4-goodies. > If you want the task, then yes use aptitude install xfce-desktop > > You can manually tweak the command line to say that you don't want > gnome-session or whatever. And I don't think apt-get can install tasks Right. The point is that if you don't know that, when you try to install from a standard system, say after using a netinst image, you can't do the obvious thing and run aptitude and select the xfce task, nor can you apt-get the list of packages that would be in the task unless you are very careful to xfce4-session before gdm. > directly so the bug only triggers when you do that with aptitude. No. It triggers if gdm is before xfce4-session on the apt-get command line as well. > Anyway, I'm *really* lost about where we are, what the problem really > is, and what exactly we are wanting to do to solve it. I'm sorry about that. I thought you brought up tasksel because of testing you did. I do believe I mentioned that it happened with apt-get and aptitude in the bug report; I never claimed tasksel was involved. To summarize: 1) Install a standard system (say from netboot, netinst, or because you only have regular CD #1 not the xfce CD #1) 2) You want xfce installed, now what? 2a) Using aptitude interactively by select Task|Xfce Desktop Environment: gnome-session is pulled in along with nautilus and other gnome things 2a.1) you can avoid some of this if you know that you need to say without-recommends 2a.2) To avoid gnome-session (which is pulled in by gdm) you have to manually deselect it (and know that it's there, rather than being surprised by it later as I was - in my case because my $HOME had originally been used for GNOME and was later converted to XFCE when I did a reinstall I had a system that wouldn't start the desktop because gnome-session instead of xfce-session was starting) 2b) aptitude from the command-line: I haven't tried this yet because I didn't know about it; presumably using tasks like tasksel -t emits will work 2c) apt-get from the command-line: Suffers from the same problem as 2a unless you make sure that xfce4-session is *before* gdm. It's also not as easy because you need to know that packages you want installed 2d) tasksel * Need to set tasksel/desktop to xfce * Don't know if it'll work correctly or not given Frans statement that tasksel isn't meant to be used this way. > Frans: basically, you were not really involved in the loop, sorry, > that's not d-i related in any way. We don't need to change anything in > tasks for Lenny, so we stay with gdm and it'll be fine. Maybe Frans can suggest something about tasksel that would make this work? What it comes down do to is that none of the tools that ought to make this easy work right. aptitude has a bug apt-get has a bug taskel doesn't support xfce as a desktop choice unless you use the xfce cd, which is a bug IMO Ideally one could use tasksel after setting the desktop to xfce. Frans: would that work? How difficult is adding a debconf question for the desktop (which would default to gnome in d-i?) Frans: also are you the one to talk to about tasksel? Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On mar, 2009-01-06 at 16:06 -0500, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > Perhaps it's only when one tries to install xfce after doing a > standard > install and not when using an xfce cd (that's when it showed up for > me). So probably tasksel is fine, the problem is that if you apt-get > or aptitude|select task, then it pulls in the stuff. Nautilus and > that > are only probably only pulled in because of recommends when installing > after-the-fact and gnome-session is a bug in aptitude and apt. Wait. It's been days that we look for a bug at install time. If you want to install xfce *after* that, just use apt-get install xfce4 xfce4-goodies. If you want the task, then yes use aptitude install xfce-desktop You can manually tweak the command line to say that you don't want gnome-session or whatever. And I don't think apt-get can install tasks directly so the bug only triggers when you do that with aptitude. Anyway, I'm *really* lost about where we are, what the problem really is, and what exactly we are wanting to do to solve it. Frans: basically, you were not really involved in the loop, sorry, that's not d-i related in any way. We don't need to change anything in tasks for Lenny, so we stay with gdm and it'll be fine. Cheers and thanks, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
Actually, regarding documentation for installing xfce d-i post-install, if we had an appropriate aptitude or apt-get line for copy-and-paste, that would make sense. The problem I see is that the appropriate line depends on the language selection (e.g. a welsh desktop should probably have ~t^welsh-desktop$ as one of the terms). Is there any easy way to achieve this, or a way to do this using tasksel instead of aptitude or apt-get? How about making it possible to change the default desktop using dpkg-reconfigure taskel and running tasksel interactively? Ultimately the problem is that there is no easy way to install non-gnome unless you use the xfce cd, and that is a problem for people like me who use netboot and netinst images most of the time, not cd. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:36:09 +0100 Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > > So it's not that hard. Manually replacing foomatic-gui by > system-config-printer gives: > > xfce:~# apt-get --no-install-recommends remove --purge foomatic-gui > system-config-printer+ > Reading package lists... Done > Building dependency tree > Reading state information... Done > The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer > required: > python-gtkhtml2 > Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. > The following extra packages will be installed: > python-cups python-cupsutils python-notify system-config-printer > Recommended packages: > hal-cups-utils synaptic > The following packages will be REMOVED: > foomatic-gui* > The following NEW packages will be installed: > python-cups python-cupsutils python-notify system-config-printer > 0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded. > Need to get 823kB of archives. > After this operation, 3009kB of additional disk space will be used. > Do you want to continue [Y/n]? > > > I'll try an install with the Xfce cd to see if that matches. But > basically I don't see gnome-session or stuff like that coming in. > > Daniel: it seems I can't reproduce the bug where gnome-session is > installed. I'll try again (in case it's a random bug), but basically > I'd be fine keeping everything that way, and take care of Xfce task > early in squeeze process. > Perhaps it's only when one tries to install xfce after doing a standard install and not when using an xfce cd (that's when it showed up for me). So probably tasksel is fine, the problem is that if you apt-get or aptitude|select task, then it pulls in the stuff. Nautilus and that are only probably only pulled in because of recommends when installing after-the-fact and gnome-session is a bug in aptitude and apt. I've reported that bug on aptitude and it will be worked on post-lenny (too invasive to change for lenny) but have to work out the apt-get bug. It looks to me like whether apt-get considers the depends fulfilled depends on the order the packages are listed on the command line. So except the aptitude bug, this could be solved by appropriate documentation, perhaps in the installation guide? I can work on the text if you need. I'd be talking about (in better english) if installing xfce outside d-i (e.g. installing a standard system and then using aptitude or apt-get, for example if using a netboot image) 1) if using aptitude, select the xfce-desktop task and then deselect gnome-session, etc 2) if using apt-get make sure xfce4-session is before gdm in the list of packages you install Does that sound reasonable? Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On lun, 2009-01-05 at 22:55 -0500, Daniel Dickinson wrote: > On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:31:59 +0100 > Frans Pop wrote: > > > > > > > Would replacing gdm by xdm solve the problem (see #510422)? > > > > > > Well, I guess so. > > > > Could you (or someone else from the desktop teams) test this? > > I'm just the user who reported the bug (though I hope at some point to > become a DD), and I have tested with a custom task (below). I did a > standard install, modified the task file and did > > tasksel -t install xfce-desktop Frans said this wasn't a correct way to test. I'm not sure you followed all the mails ont the BR as I dropped you from CC:. > On another note, I'd like to suggest using system-config-printer > instead of foomatic-gui ; I'm not sure foomatic-gui is maintained > anymore and system-config-printer is the recommended replacement in any > event. system-config-printer is nice but depends on python-gnome2 which pulls way too much GNOME and gksu which aswell. But as foomatic-gui does that too anyway… Anyway, I just tried an install in kvm. What I did: kvm -k en-us -hda xfce-desktop.img -kernel linux -initrd initrd.gz -append desktop=xfce Iirc linux and initrd are from d-i RC1 or more recent. It seems to be “the recommended way” to install Xfce Desktop Environment when using the netinstall. And dpkg -l | grep gnome gives: ii gnome-keyring2.22.3-2 GNOME keyring services (daemon and tools) ii gnome-mime-data 2.18.0-1 base MIME and Application database for GNOME. ii libgnome-keyring02.22.3-2 GNOME keyring services library ii libgnome2-0 2.20.1.1-1 The GNOME 2 library - runtime files ii libgnome2-common 2.20.1.1-1 The GNOME 2 library - common files ii libgnomecanvas2-02.20.1.1-1 A powerful object-oriented display - runtime files ii libgnomecanvas2-common 2.20.1.1-1 A powerful object-oriented display - common files ii libgnomeui-0 2.20.1.1-2 The GNOME 2 libraries (User Interface) - runtime files ii libgnomeui-common2.20.1.1-2 The GNOME 2 libraries (User Interface) - common files ii libgnomevfs2-0 1:2.22.0-5 GNOME Virtual File System (runtime libraries) ii libgnomevfs2-common 1:2.22.0-5 GNOME Virtual File System (common files) ii python-gnome22.22.0-1 Python bindings for the GNOME desktop environment So it's not that hard. Manually replacing foomatic-gui by system-config-printer gives: xfce:~# apt-get --no-install-recommends remove --purge foomatic-gui system-config-printer+ Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: python-gtkhtml2 Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following extra packages will be installed: python-cups python-cupsutils python-notify system-config-printer Recommended packages: hal-cups-utils synaptic The following packages will be REMOVED: foomatic-gui* The following NEW packages will be installed: python-cups python-cupsutils python-notify system-config-printer 0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 823kB of archives. After this operation, 3009kB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue [Y/n]? I'll try an install with the Xfce cd to see if that matches. But basically I don't see gnome-session or stuff like that coming in. Daniel: it seems I can't reproduce the bug where gnome-session is installed. I'll try again (in case it's a random bug), but basically I'd be fine keeping everything that way, and take care of Xfce task early in squeeze process. Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:31:59 +0100 Frans Pop wrote: > > > > Would replacing gdm by xdm solve the problem (see #510422)? > > > > Well, I guess so. > > Could you (or someone else from the desktop teams) test this? I'm just the user who reported the bug (though I hope at some point to become a DD), and I have tested with a custom task (below). I did a standard install, modified the task file and did tasksel -t install xfce-desktop that didn't work (gnome-desktop was selected) and I discovered I also had to manually edit tasksel/desktop in the debconf settings so that the desktop was xfce-xdm instead of gnome - this should happen via dpkg-reconfigure IMO. That fixed the aptitude line and I did tasksel install xfce-desktop but that doesn't seem to work because gdm was pulled in. I finally created another tasked that didn't enhance desktop (below) and it and installed xdm not gdm, and didn't pull in gnome stuff On another note, I'd like to suggest using system-config-printer instead of foomatic-gui ; I'm not sure foomatic-gui is maintained anymore and system-config-printer is the recommended replacement in any event. > > I'd like some comments from other pkg-xfce team > > members, but if it's not too late, that would be ok. > > There is a slight risk of incompatibility with tasksel. > > > I didn't use xdm since quite some time, but does it uses a > > desktop-base theme by default, these days? No it doesn't. > > No idea. You are supposed to be the desktop people here... > Task: xfce-desktop Section: user Relevance: 8 Description: Xfce desktop environment with xdm This task provides basic "desktop" software using the Xfce desktop environment but uses XDM instead of GDM Key: xfce4 xdm Enhances: desktop Packages: list foomatic-gui mousepad openoffice.org-gtk orage xfce4 xfce4-goodies xfce4-mixer xfce4-terminal xfmedia xfprint4 xsane Test-preferred-desktop: xfce ### Task #2 ### Task: xfce-xdm Section: user Description: Xfce desktop environment with xdm This task provides basic "desktop" software using the Xfce desktop environment but uses XDM instead of GDM Key: xfce4 xdm Packages: list foomatic-gui mousepad openoffice.org-gtk orage xfce4 xfce4-goodies xfce4-mixer xfce4-terminal xfmedia xfprint4 xsane alsa-base alsa-utils anacron avahi-daemon cpufrequtils cupsys cupsys-bsd cupsys-client cupsys-driver-gutenprint desktop-base eject foo2zjs foomatic-filters-ppds gimp hp-ppd hpijs hplip iceweasel kerneloops libgl1-mesa-dri libnss-mdns menu myspell-en-us openoffice.org openoffice.org-gcj openoffice.org-help-en-us openoffice.org-thesaurus-en-us printconf swfdec-mozilla twm vbetool xdg-utils xorg xserver-xorg-input-all xserver-xorg-video-all xterm -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Monday 05 January 2009, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > It should at one point run: > tasksel install xfce-desktop > > But according to tasksel --test install xfce-desktop, in fact it should > run: > aptitude -q --without-recommends -o APT::Install-Recommends=no -y \ >install desktop gnome-desktop xfce-desktop That's user error. What you are missing is that tasksel relies on the value of tasksel/desktop to "translate" a selection of "desktop environment" to desktop + XXX-desktop tasks. What you need to do is: # echo "tasksel tasksel/desktop string xfce" | debconf-set-selections # tasksel --test install xfce-desktop That should end up as: aptitude -q --without-recommends -o APT::Install-Recommends=no -y \ install ~t^desktop ~t^xfce-desktop It is quite likely that the "install" option of tasksel does not really interact nicely with the desktop tests. You can also check what will happen by running tasksel interactively and selecting the desktop task + the "manual package selection" option. > Yeah, that's not your problem. Default session stuff in gdm/xdm only > runs whatever session manager is configured, which, on an Xfce install > is xfce4-session. So it runs xfce4-session, which is not the perfect > way to run Xfce. The better way is to run startxfce4, and we have a > config file to run that correctly, it's selectable in gdm but not > really in xdm. As that is totally unintuitive to end-users I don't think that's a real argument for or against xdm. > Yeah but it could at least have the Lenny wallpaper which is in > desktop-base :) And from my tests desktop-base _does_ get installed, so you still get the lenny wallpaper after login. Is having a pretty logon screen really that important to you? I personally really couldn't care less, *especially* when I select a light desktop. > > So, switching from gdm to xdm may work, but there is no real way to > > test that. My advise is to just leave things as they are for Lenny > > and just live with the issue. > > Yeah but having to install that many gnome stuff on Xfce install is > quite painful. I'll try to see if I can do anything on that. So you'd prefer to switch to xdm after all? I really don't think there is any other solution. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:58:28PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > severity 506406 minor > thanks > > On Monday 05 January 2009, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > > Well, testing the desktop task not really, especially if it uses > > Packages files. But we can test installing xdm on top of xfce4. > > That's not sufficient. What would need to be tested is installing xdm and > xfce at the same time, just like tasksel would do. > I've just tried this, but it hardly has any effect. Yes that's what I meant. Using a commandline aptitude with all the packages in xfce-desktop task and xdm instead of gdm. > > Hmm. It looks like this is only an issue when the task is installed *from > aptitude itself*, and *not* when it is installed using tasksel or during > a new installation from D-I. > That means it's almost impossible to test without actually uploading > tasksel, that it's unlikely that it can be fixed through some creative > change in tasksel, that IMO it is not even remotely an important issue > and that it is almost certainly not an issue in tasksel, but in aptitude. Well, for Simon and me it looks really like magic. We don't really know what is done when installing from d-i an Xfce desktop. It should at one point run: tasksel install xfce-desktop But according to tasksel --test install xfce-desktop, in fact it should run: aptitude -q --without-recommends -o APT::Install-Recommends=no -y \ install desktop gnome-desktop xfce-desktop Which looks quite weird. Wouldn't be that gnome-desktop the problem? > AFAICT it can be worked around by first selecting the xfce meta packages > in aptitude and only then selecting other packages, such as gdm. > If I do that, aptitude only wants to install 720MB instead of 1027 MB > worth of packages. > > > It'll work (but as there's no way to chose session from xdm, it may be > > more painful for end users then using gdm, as the correct way to start > > Xfce is to run startxfce4 and not “just“ running the registered session > > manager (which is the case by default on *dm). > > I don't get this. I just gave it a try and Xfce started fine with xdm as > display manager. I don't see any difference. Yeah, that's not your problem. Default session stuff in gdm/xdm only runs whatever session manager is configured, which, on an Xfce install is xfce4-session. So it runs xfce4-session, which is not the perfect way to run Xfce. The better way is to run startxfce4, and we have a config file to run that correctly, it's selectable in gdm but not really in xdm. > > Uh, oh, well, yeah, sorry :) > > Installed xdm, it just look awful. I don't know about xdm themes, but > > I'm not sure cooking an xdm desktop-base theme would be done easily. > > I would think it's almost certainly to late for that for Lenny. > > xdm looks more basic then gdm and is less themed, but TBH that's exactly > what I'd expect with a lightweight DE. And it does have the Debian logo. Yeah but it could at least have the Lenny wallpaper which is in desktop-base :) > > > Simon Huggins told me on IRC that you talked about this issue and that > > in tasksel tasks (tasksel/tasks/xfce-desktop for example) Keys: and > > Packages: stuff were treated differently, and that we might have a > > chance there. Could you elaborate on this? > > I did talk to Simon, but we did not talk about that. He asked how the > definition of a task could be changed or overruled, which is a different > question. > > So, switching from gdm to xdm may work, but there is no real way to test > that. My advise is to just leave things as they are for Lenny and just > live with the issue. Yeah but having to install that many gnome stuff on Xfce install is quite painful. I'll try to see if I can do anything on that. Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
severity 506406 minor thanks On Monday 05 January 2009, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > Well, testing the desktop task not really, especially if it uses > Packages files. But we can test installing xdm on top of xfce4. That's not sufficient. What would need to be tested is installing xdm and xfce at the same time, just like tasksel would do. I've just tried this, but it hardly has any effect. Hmm. It looks like this is only an issue when the task is installed *from aptitude itself*, and *not* when it is installed using tasksel or during a new installation from D-I. That means it's almost impossible to test without actually uploading tasksel, that it's unlikely that it can be fixed through some creative change in tasksel, that IMO it is not even remotely an important issue and that it is almost certainly not an issue in tasksel, but in aptitude. AFAICT it can be worked around by first selecting the xfce meta packages in aptitude and only then selecting other packages, such as gdm. If I do that, aptitude only wants to install 720MB instead of 1027 MB worth of packages. > It'll work (but as there's no way to chose session from xdm, it may be > more painful for end users then using gdm, as the correct way to start > Xfce is to run startxfce4 and not “just“ running the registered session > manager (which is the case by default on *dm). I don't get this. I just gave it a try and Xfce started fine with xdm as display manager. I don't see any difference. > > There is a slight risk of incompatibility with tasksel. > > What do you mean? See #510422. AFAIK the fix has never actually been tested. From the tests I've just done it looks like it should work though. > Uh, oh, well, yeah, sorry :) > Installed xdm, it just look awful. I don't know about xdm themes, but > I'm not sure cooking an xdm desktop-base theme would be done easily. I would think it's almost certainly to late for that for Lenny. xdm looks more basic then gdm and is less themed, but TBH that's exactly what I'd expect with a lightweight DE. And it does have the Debian logo. > Simon Huggins told me on IRC that you talked about this issue and that > in tasksel tasks (tasksel/tasks/xfce-desktop for example) Keys: and > Packages: stuff were treated differently, and that we might have a > chance there. Could you elaborate on this? I did talk to Simon, but we did not talk about that. He asked how the definition of a task could be changed or overruled, which is a different question. So, switching from gdm to xdm may work, but there is no real way to test that. My advise is to just leave things as they are for Lenny and just live with the issue. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Processed: Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
Processing commands for cont...@bugs.debian.org: > severity 506406 minor Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies; can a dependency change fix this? Severity set to `minor' from `important' > thanks Stopping processing here. Please contact me if you need assistance. Debian bug tracking system administrator (administrator, Debian Bugs database) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#506406: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On lun, 2009-01-05 at 13:31 +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > On Monday 05 January 2009, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > > > Reason is that tasksel makes use of the Task: fields in the Packages > > > file, not the task files included in tasksel itself (which, > > > simplified, are only used to update the Packages file). > > > > Ha, crap. And I guess the Task: order isn't reliable? > > The order of packages in the Packages file is reliable (alphabetical), but > I'm not sure how exactly that translates to the order in which tasksel > will list packages when it calls aptitude. > > > > Would replacing gdm by xdm solve the problem (see #510422)? > > > > Well, I guess so. > > Could you (or someone else from the desktop teams) test this? Well, testing the desktop task not really, especially if it uses Packages files. But we can test installing xdm on top of xfce4. It'll work (but as there's no way to chose session from xdm, it may be more painful for end users then using gdm, as the correct way to start Xfce is to run startxfce4 and not “just“ running the registered session manager (which is the case by default on *dm). > > > I'd like some comments from other pkg-xfce team > > members, but if it's not too late, that would be ok. > > There is a slight risk of incompatibility with tasksel. What do you mean? > > > I didn't use xdm since quite some time, but does it uses a desktop-base > > theme by default, these days? > > No idea. You are supposed to be the desktop people here... > Uh, oh, well, yeah, sorry :) Installed xdm, it just look awful. I don't know about xdm themes, but I'm not sure cooking an xdm desktop-base theme would be done easily. Simon Huggins told me on IRC that you talked about this issue and that in tasksel tasks (tasksel/tasks/xfce-desktop for example) Keys: and Packages: stuff were treated differently, and that we might have a chance there. Could you elaborate on this? Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On Monday 05 January 2009, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: > > Reason is that tasksel makes use of the Task: fields in the Packages > > file, not the task files included in tasksel itself (which, > > simplified, are only used to update the Packages file). > > Ha, crap. And I guess the Task: order isn't reliable? The order of packages in the Packages file is reliable (alphabetical), but I'm not sure how exactly that translates to the order in which tasksel will list packages when it calls aptitude. > > Would replacing gdm by xdm solve the problem (see #510422)? > > Well, I guess so. Could you (or someone else from the desktop teams) test this? > I'd like some comments from other pkg-xfce team > members, but if it's not too late, that would be ok. There is a slight risk of incompatibility with tasksel. > I didn't use xdm since quite some time, but does it uses a desktop-base > theme by default, these days? No idea. You are supposed to be the desktop people here... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
On lun, 2009-01-05 at 12:50 +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > > Ok it seems that adding xfce4-session before gdm in the list enables > > apt-get and aptitude to satisfy the dependency on x-session-manager. > > Unfortunately this cannot be fixed in tasksel this way. The order in which > packages are actually installed is not determined by the order in which > they are listed in tasksel. > > Reason is that tasksel makes use of the Task: fields in the Packages file, > not the task files included in tasksel itself (which, simplified, are > only used to update the Packages file). Ha, crap. And I guess the Task: order isn't reliable? > > Would replacing gdm by xdm solve the problem (see #510422)? Well, I guess so. I'd like some comments from other pkg-xfce team members, but if it's not too late, that would be ok. I tend to prefer slim over xdm but it doesn't seem really maintained upstream and has some drawbacks which make it not suitable for a default install. I didn't use xdm since quite some time, but does it uses a desktop-base theme by default, these days? Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#506406: xfce4: apt bug causes gdm to pull in unneeded/unwanted gnome dependencies
> Ok it seems that adding xfce4-session before gdm in the list enables > apt-get and aptitude to satisfy the dependency on x-session-manager. Unfortunately this cannot be fixed in tasksel this way. The order in which packages are actually installed is not determined by the order in which they are listed in tasksel. Reason is that tasksel makes use of the Task: fields in the Packages file, not the task files included in tasksel itself (which, simplified, are only used to update the Packages file). Would replacing gdm by xdm solve the problem (see #510422)? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
