Processed: Re: Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2013-02-01 Thread Debian Bug Tracking System
Processing control commands:

> tags -1 + pending
Bug #692309 [installation-guide] installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device 
Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick
Added tag(s) pending.

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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2013-02-01 Thread Samuel Thibault
Control: tags -1 + pending

Brian Potkin, le Sun 09 Dec 2012 13:52:36 +, a écrit :
> Here is a patch replacing the first one.

Applied, thanks.

Samuel


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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-11 Thread Holger Wansing
Hi,

Holger Wansing  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> "Didier 'OdyX' Raboud"  wrote:
> > Le lundi, 10 décembre 2012 18.00:03, Holger Wansing a écrit :
> > > But we already mention Windows tools in the guide, which are also not
> > > part of Debian, for example for partitioning.
> > > I would vote for including plop too.
> > 
> > Which ones, specifically ? As far as I read chapter 3.5, we just advise 
> > users 
> > to "repartition", without saying how. The other Windows executables we 
> > advise 
> > to use are in Debian: loadlin and win32-loader.
> 
> For example:
> In manual for i386 and amd64, this is "the integrated Disk Manager of 
> Windows 7".
> For powerpc: "The Apple Drive Setup application can be found in the Utilities 
> folder on the MacOS CD".

I forgot another example:
on the Debian website in the CD faq
http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-windows
we advise to use Windows or MacOS burning software to burn ISO to disk.
This advise is not in the installation-guide, but on the website, what
results in the same.

Holger

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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-10 Thread Holger Wansing
Hi,

"Didier 'OdyX' Raboud"  wrote:
> Le lundi, 10 décembre 2012 18.00:03, Holger Wansing a écrit :
> > But we already mention Windows tools in the guide, which are also not
> > part of Debian, for example for partitioning.
> > I would vote for including plop too.
> 
> Which ones, specifically ? As far as I read chapter 3.5, we just advise users 
> to "repartition", without saying how. The other Windows executables we advise 
> to use are in Debian: loadlin and win32-loader.

For example:
In manual for i386 and amd64, this is "the integrated Disk Manager of 
Windows 7".
For powerpc: "The Apple Drive Setup application can be found in the Utilities 
folder on the MacOS CD".

Holger

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Re: Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-10 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le lundi, 10 décembre 2012 18.00:03, Holger Wansing a écrit :
> But we already mention Windows tools in the guide, which are also not
> part of Debian, for example for partitioning.
> I would vote for including plop too.

Which ones, specifically ? As far as I read chapter 3.5, we just advise users 
to "repartition", without saying how. The other Windows executables we advise 
to use are in Debian: loadlin and win32-loader.

Furthermore, I think "plop" is a widely different beast in that context: it's 
a bootloader, which runs on the bare metal and could do lots of things to 
anything it boots. Furthermore, I can't find any indication that it is free 
software nor links to the source, which is apparently assembler. Closer 
examination of the license [0] indicates that it is non-free as per "The 
programs may not be sold".

Earlier I was lightly against pointing to it for "not built by Debian" 
reasons: I was worried about us advising users to use free software that we 
would not be ensuring trust for. Now, given that I have realised that plop i 
non-released-source non-free software, I'm really firmly against pointing to 
it, for the risks inherently carried by installing a non-free assembler 
bootloader on bare metal.

Cheers,

OdyX

[0] http://www.plop.at/en/bootmanager/licence.html


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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-10 Thread Holger Wansing
Hi,

Didier Raboud  wrote:
> Thanks for the patches. But, FWIW, I'm opposed to advising users to go "on 
> the 
> internet" download a non-trusted (as in "there is no trust path to/from 
> Debian") blob to put on their machines. I think we should only do it if that  
> "plop" can be considered as part of Debian (as in "packaged", see e.g. win32-
> loader or loadlin ).

But we already mention Windows tools in the guide, which are also not 
part of Debian, for example for partitioning.
I would vote for including plop too.

Holger

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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-09 Thread Brian Potkin
On Fri 07 Dec 2012 at 21:44:44 +0100, Didier Raboud wrote:

> Thanks for the patches. But, FWIW, I'm opposed to advising users to go "on 
> the 
> internet" download a non-trusted (as in "there is no trust path to/from 
> Debian") blob to put on their machines. I think we should only do it if that  
> "plop" can be considered as part of Debian (as in "packaged", see e.g. win32-
> loader or loadlin ).

Fair enough; makes sense and I should have realised that. Thanks.

Let's look at the Guide again. There is extensive help on what to do if
you cannot use the BIOS to boot a CD in Sections 4.1. and 5.1.1.
Similar advice could be offered when unable to natively boot a USB
device.

Here is a patch replacing the first one.

Regards,

Brian.
--- manual/en/preparing/bios-setup/i386.xml	2012-12-07 11:41:09.0 +
+++ manual/en/preparing/bios-setup/i386_usbboot-2.xml	2012-12-09 13:14:03.0 +
@@ -68,6 +68,14 @@
 USB CDROM helps on some BIOSes which will not boot from a USB stick in 
 USB harddisk mode.
 
+
+
+If you cannot manipulate the BIOS to boot directly from a USB stick you
+still have the option of using an ISO copied to the stick. Boot &d-i;
+using  and, after scanning the hard
+drives for an installer ISO image, select the USB device and choose an
+installation image.
+
 
   
 


Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-07 Thread Didier Raboud
Le vendredi, 7 décembre 2012 19.28:04, Brian Potkin a écrit :
> On Sun 04 Nov 2012 at 21:24:32 +, Brian Potkin wrote:
> >http://www.plop.at/
> > 
> > Advantages:
> >* It works.
> >* It is actively developed.
> >* There is no other comparable software.
> >* Users are better informed.
> 
> The idea of adding this advice to the Guide may grow on people, so
> patches are attached.

Thanks for the patches. But, FWIW, I'm opposed to advising users to go "on the 
internet" download a non-trusted (as in "there is no trust path to/from 
Debian") blob to put on their machines. I think we should only do it if that  
"plop" can be considered as part of Debian (as in "packaged", see e.g. win32-
loader or loadlin ).

Cheers,

OdyX


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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-12-07 Thread Brian Potkin
tags + patch
thanks


On Sun 04 Nov 2012 at 21:24:32 +, Brian Potkin wrote:

>http://www.plop.at/
> 
> Advantages:
> 
>* It works.
>* It is actively developed.
>* There is no other comparable software.
>* Users are better informed.

The idea of adding this advice to the Guide may grow on people, so
patches are attached.
--- manual/en/preparing/bios-setup/i386.xml	2012-12-07 11:41:09.0 +
+++ manual/en/preparing/bios-setup/i386_usbboot.xml	2012-12-07 17:21:21.0 +
@@ -68,6 +68,15 @@
 USB CDROM helps on some BIOSes which will not boot from a USB stick in 
 USB harddisk mode.
 
+
+
+You may lose the fight to get a USB stick to boot by adjusting the BIOS
+but it may be necessary for you to use such a device for booting &d-i;.
+The options open to you are now very limited but some of our users have
+reported success with using the
+Plop boot loader.
+
+
 
   
 
--- manual/build/entities/urls.ent	2012-12-07 11:41:09.0 +
+++ manual/build/entities/urls-plop.ent	2012-12-07 17:23:12.0 +
@@ -134,6 +134,7 @@
   -->
 http://opensource.org/osd";>
 http://&wiki-debian-org;/DebianSoftware";>
+http://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html";>
 
 
 http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html";>


Re: Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-06 Thread Brian Potkin
On Tue 06 Nov 2012 at 16:36:31 +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Brian Potkin, le Tue 06 Nov 2012 13:05:25 +, a écrit :
> > Burn plpbt.iso to a CD.
> 
> But then why not simply burn the Debian CD image on the CD?

In no particular order of importance:

1. The user has only one CD and no money to buy any more.

2. The user has no CDs or working CD-ROM but does have a floppy disk to
   put plpbt.bin on.

3. The user has no CDs or floppy disks but has read the documentation
   for Plop and can use it and GRUB on hard disk to boot from a USB
   stick.

4. The user has a businesscard sized CD. Great for putting plpbt.iso on
   and carrying round in a wallet, Not so great for a Debian Live ISO.

5. The user has only one CD. It is not re-writable. She wants to test
   more than the Wheezy d-i alpha image. Her USB stick is re-writable.

6. The user has only one CD. He would like to try out the GNOME, KDE and
   Xfce desktop environments. He is fortunate in having three USB sticks.

7. The user has fify CDs but resents having to throw them all away after
   testing d-i weekly images for a year.

8. The user has many CDs and feels guilty seeing them all go to landfill
   after a couple of years of testing Debian ISO images.

9. The user installs GRUB to her USB stick and adds ten Debian ISOs. A
   CD boot iwith Plop can offer a GRUB menu of the ten ISOs to boot
   from.


In two words. Versatilty. Choice.

If Plop doesn't work, the user has lost nothing. If it works, the user
gets to bypass BIOS deficiences and install Debian.


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Re: Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-06 Thread Don Wright
Samuel Thibault wrote:

>Brian Potkin, le Tue 06 Nov 2012 13:05:25 +, a écrit :
>> Burn plpbt.iso to a CD.
>
>But then why not simply burn the Debian CD image on the CD?

One may create the boot-assistant tool CD once for all USB sticks, then load new
images to USB stick as often as desired. Great for following weekly or daily
builds, as I've had many more CD-related problems than USB stick ones.  --Don


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Re: Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-06 Thread Samuel Thibault
Brian Potkin, le Tue 06 Nov 2012 13:05:25 +, a écrit :
> Burn plpbt.iso to a CD.

But then why not simply burn the Debian CD image on the CD?

Samuel


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Re: Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-06 Thread Brian Potkin
On Tue 06 Nov 2012 at 00:46:12 +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Brian Potkin, le Sun 04 Nov 2012 21:24:32 +, a écrit :
> > Whatever the reason, some computers will not boot from a USB device, So,
> > in addition to the present advice, why not offer something which does
> > not involve fiddling, very often without a positive outcome, with the
> > bios. Namely, the Plop Boot Manager:
> > 
> >http://www.plop.at/
> > 
> > Advantages:
> > 
> >* It works.
> >* It is actively developed.
> >* There is no other comparable software.
> >* Users are better informed.
> 
> I'm not sure to understand what you propose. From what I see on
> http://www.plop.at/en/ploplinux/usb.html , it's just yet another USB
> boot image. But does it really work more in the cases where the hybrid
> boot that Debian is using doesn't work?

It's the Plop Boot Manager you want. This goes directly there:

   http://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html

   * USB boot without BIOS support (UHCI, OHCI and EHCI)

Burn plpbt.iso to a CD. Boot the CD. Insert USB stick carrying a Debian
ISO. Choose menu item to boot from USB.

Not that this level of detail is needed. The URL might be sufficient.
Also, the advice might be better given in the CD FAQ - with a pointer to
it from the Guide.

Anyone who has ever struggled with a BIOS which refuses to boot a USB
device would surely appreciate being given a route which may lead to the
difficulty being overcome.


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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-05 Thread Samuel Thibault
Brian Potkin, le Sun 04 Nov 2012 21:24:32 +, a écrit :
> Whatever the reason, some computers will not boot from a USB device, So,
> in addition to the present advice, why not offer something which does
> not involve fiddling, very often without a positive outcome, with the
> bios. Namely, the Plop Boot Manager:
> 
>http://www.plop.at/
> 
> Advantages:
> 
>* It works.
>* It is actively developed.
>* There is no other comparable software.
>* Users are better informed.

I'm not sure to understand what you propose. From what I see on
http://www.plop.at/en/ploplinux/usb.html , it's just yet another USB
boot image. But does it really work more in the cases where the hybrid
boot that Debian is using doesn't work?

Samuel


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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-05 Thread John D. Hendrickson and Sara Darnell

i like anything that helps fresh meat install without hours of crap ! :)

personaly i wish you could add this in "contributions" as working with a particular version of 
debian (an important aspect for dist. tars) and do so without allot of admin approval.


thanks all,  -- John

Brian Potkin wrote:

Tags: d-i
As 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection says:
   http://www.plop.at/



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Bug#692309: installation-guide: 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection: Booting debian-installer from a USB stick

2012-11-04 Thread Brian Potkin
Package: installation-guide
Severity: normal
Tags: d-i


As 3.6.2. Boot Device Selection says:

 Unfortunately some computers contain buggy BIOS versions. Booting
 debian-installer from a USB stick might not work even if there is an
 appropriate option in the BIOS setup menu and the stick is selected as
 the primary boot device. On some of these systems using a USB stick as
 boot medium is impossible; others can be tricked into booting from the
 stick by changing the device type in the BIOS setup from the default
 “USB harddisk” or “USB stick” to “USB ZIP” or “USB CDROM”. In particular
 if you use an isohybrid CD/DVD image on a USB stick (see Section 4.3.1,
 “Preparing a USB stick using a hybrid CD or DVD image”), changing the
 device type to “USB CDROM” helps on some BIOSes which will not boot from
 a USB stick in USB harddisk mode.

Whatever the reason, some computers will not boot from a USB device, So,
in addition to the present advice, why not offer something which does
not involve fiddling, very often without a positive outcome, with the
bios. Namely, the Plop Boot Manager:

   http://www.plop.at/

Advantages:

   * It works.
   * It is actively developed.
   * There is no other comparable software.
   * Users are better informed.


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