Re: Complaint about apt installing Recommends by default.
Quoting Eric Renfro (eren...@gmail.com): > I have been a Debian user since way back when, and I completely > disagree with this decision. Recommends should NOT be treated as if Playing the "I've been in this game for long" with some people in this list is probably a bad idea and you're very certainly risking to lose, I'm afraid..:-) > Required, ever. Things such as, for an example, rsyslog-pgsql, to > add postgresql logging support. Generally such a package could (AND > SHOULD!) recommend postgresql-server, and at the very least Require > postgresql-client. Since rsyslog-pgsql would be just a component to > add support to log TO a PostgreSQL server, it's not essentially > required to run it on the same system the module is installed on. > But to "by default" imposedly install postgresql-server on every > system you install rsyslog-pgsql to just because it's recommend, is > outright unacceptably insanely stupid. In such case, please complain to the relevant maintainer and ask him|her to downgrade the dependency to Suggests: As you forgot to point out, not that many distribution have a graded dependency system as Debian has (see Wouter's answer as well). Some of our maintainers do use it properly, some sometimes don't. Please don't blame the entire system because some people are misusing it. As Wouter pointed (again), not installing Recommends by default was a recurrent complaint of our users who expect, when installing a system *with its default option* to have a reasonably complete system. The Debian Installation Guide gives good instructions to avoid installing Recommends by default by using a boot prompt switch: base-installer/install-recommends="false" (I'll assume that such an experienced and longstanding Linux user has a clue about passing arguments to the D-I boot prompt, right? > Another prime example is a package maintainer may "Recommend" > pulseaudio for the use of ... Let's use Amarok as an example. Is it > absolutely Required to use PulseAudio with Amarok to play audio? > Absolutely not. With the direction PulseAudio has gone as well, it > would be hard to honestly recommend such a thing, but it can and > likely even will happen, and unless someone pins pulseaudio packages > from ever installing, they may very well have it shoved down their > throat. Is this acceptable? Completely not. The, for the sake of it, please file a bug report against the relevant package. > > I will firmly say this. It is completely stupid to, by default, > install Recommends. In the past, only Ubuntu has ever done this, and Please avoid things like "stupid" and such too strong words. This is probably not the most appropriate way to make your point, I'm afraid. You mention Ubuntu. Have you checked their recent policy in recent release? Are you that sure that they're not doing exactly the same thing we're doing? Some Ubuntu installation system developers do follow this channel and will probably answer better than me on this topic but I wouldn't be surprised if Karmic has exactly the same behaviour than Debian ssqueeze. Anyway, about being "stupid" to install Recommends, you probably may want to read the Debian Policy again (http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html) and the definition of various dependencies. Recommends This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency. The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together with this one in all but unusual installations. You'll probably agree that a default install is not expected to be an "unusual" installation. So, installing Recommends by default is a perfectly logical decision in that matter. Packages that were abusing Recommends are progressively fixed as they are found. Please help in this effort if you find a package that uses Recommends in an inappropriate way. This is how things are working in Debian: they're done when someone is motivated enough to do them. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Complaint about apt installing Recommends by default.
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 04:37:57PM -0400, Eric Renfro wrote: > I'm seriously.. VERY seriously enraged by the very thought of Debian > moving to preconfigure and install "Recommends" by default. This is > the worst decision Debian could ever make. That very one thing is > one of my biggest complaints about Ubuntu doing so and strongly > /VERY/ strongly insist it not be done. Actually, the fact that Debian has not done so for a long time in the past was one of apt's most-reported bugs, and rightly so. As a result of that, many packages listed in Recommends: are now more of a "strong suggests" rather than a "weak depends", as recommends are supposed to be; and as such, the current default behaviour is indeed not exactly perfect. However, given time, this will fix itself. > I have been a Debian user since way back when, and I completely > disagree with this decision. Recommends should NOT be treated as if > Required, ever. They are not. [...] > I will firmly say this. It is completely stupid to, by default, > install Recommends. In the past, only Ubuntu has ever done this, and > it is by far, one of the stupidest things they have ever done. > Absolutely /no/ other reasonable distribution does this. That is because no other "reasonable" distribution has a concept even remotely similar to Recommends, since rpm does not know "suggests" or "recommends", only "depends". Don't lose your sleep over it. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100321234749.gh21...@celtic.nixsys.be
Complaint about apt installing Recommends by default.
I'm seriously.. VERY seriously enraged by the very thought of Debian moving to preconfigure and install "Recommends" by default. This is the worst decision Debian could ever make. That very one thing is one of my biggest complaints about Ubuntu doing so and strongly /VERY/ strongly insist it not be done. I have been a Debian user since way back when, and I completely disagree with this decision. Recommends should NOT be treated as if Required, ever. Things such as, for an example, rsyslog-pgsql, to add postgresql logging support. Generally such a package could (AND SHOULD!) recommend postgresql-server, and at the very least Require postgresql-client. Since rsyslog-pgsql would be just a component to add support to log TO a PostgreSQL server, it's not essentially required to run it on the same system the module is installed on. But to "by default" imposedly install postgresql-server on every system you install rsyslog-pgsql to just because it's recommend, is outright unacceptably insanely stupid. Another prime example is a package maintainer may "Recommend" pulseaudio for the use of ... Let's use Amarok as an example. Is it absolutely Required to use PulseAudio with Amarok to play audio? Absolutely not. With the direction PulseAudio has gone as well, it would be hard to honestly recommend such a thing, but it can and likely even will happen, and unless someone pins pulseaudio packages from ever installing, they may very well have it shoved down their throat. Is this acceptable? Completely not. I will firmly say this. It is completely stupid to, by default, install Recommends. In the past, only Ubuntu has ever done this, and it is by far, one of the stupidest things they have ever done. Absolutely /no/ other reasonable distribution does this. Eric Renfro -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba683a5.1000...@gmail.com
