Re: Debian installer and braille
Hello, Frans Pop, le Fri 20 Jun 2008 22:27:08 +0200, a écrit : > On Thursday 19 June 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:38:56 +0200, a écrit : > > > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > > About the dark theme, it would probably be useful to make the text > > > > lightwhite (CGA color 0x15), not only white/grey (CGA color 0x7)? > > > > > > Please submit a patch. > > > > Would it be ok to make the text frontend depend on ncurses, in order to > > make it generic? > > My first reaction would be: no. > > The text frontend is for example used on dumb terminals for s390. Would > that still work correctly? Ncurses is precisely there for that: doing things if they are possible, how they are possible. > The second reason not to do it is that it is used very little and I see no > point in adding a dependency and a library and thus increasing initrd > sizes without an extremely good reason to do so. Thinking twice about it, the case is possibly very rare indeed. The case at stake would be colorblind people who would use speech assistance. What we can do is to hardcode the linux and bterm values and use them when TERM matches them (i.e. we are sure to be running a usual Linux console). Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Thursday 19 June 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Hello, > > Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:38:56 +0200, a écrit : > > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > About the dark theme, it would probably be useful to make the text > > > lightwhite (CGA color 0x15), not only white/grey (CGA color 0x7)? > > > > Please submit a patch. > > Would it be ok to make the text frontend depend on ncurses, in order to > make it generic? My first reaction would be: no. The text frontend is for example used on dumb terminals for s390. Would that still work correctly? The second reason not to do it is that it is used very little and I see no point in adding a dependency and a library and thus increasing initrd sizes without an extremely good reason to do so. That said, I basically have not looked into this and haven't got a clue what ncurses actually does, but IMO providing that info and convincing us is up to you, not me :-) Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
Hello, Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:38:56 +0200, a écrit : > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > About the dark theme, it would probably be useful to make the text > > lightwhite (CGA color 0x15), not only white/grey (CGA color 0x7)? > > Please submit a patch. Would it be ok to make the text frontend depend on ncurses, in order to make it generic? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
(Cc-ing Dave Mielke) Frans Pop, le Sat 31 May 2008 13:48:32 +0200, a écrit : > Hmm. Just noticed these in my logcheck mail: These just come from the fake XWindow driver. > brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset ISO8859-1 > brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset JISX0208.1983-0 > brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset KSC5601.1987-0 > brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset GB2312.1980-0 > brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset JISX0201.1976-0 Well, actually these are spurious: a braille font doesn't need to cover something else than U+2800-U+28FF, which these charset don't cover > brltty[11186]: Could not load a unicode font for charset KSC5601.1987-0 > brltty[11186]: Could not load a unicode font for charset GB2312.1980-0 And these aren't really a problem since the XWindow fake braille driver doesn't support wide characters. I'll try to seem how to filter them out properly. > Do we need to add something in the installer to support languages > other than English? Could CJK languages (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) be > supported as well in theory? That question is actually not related to what is above :) There are ways to support CJK on bare linux text console by using specialized fonts, but it is quite oddly done (brltty needs to be explicitely configured for this since there is no real proper way to autodetect it, etc.). Currently, the debian installer uses bterm instead, but that is not accessible, see http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2006/03/msg01035.html Nothing happened about it. I hadn't pushed more pressure because proper Unicode support for CJK only happened recently in brltty. But actually we now have it in 3.10, so maybe we can think about it again. Trying to sum it up: - brltty currently only works with a bare linux console, that's why brltty-udeb currently automatically disables the framebuffer. - yes, we could implement a frontend that directly talks to the braille device, but we shouldn't do that unless it is synchronized with a frontend shown on the real screen, since blind people also need to work with sighted people, and having two different non-synced views would be a mess. - we could define a /dev file which looks much like /dev/vcs*, except that it provides a unicode view instead of the VGA-crippled view of /dev/vcs*. That, however, is not restricted to Debian, of course. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Saturday 31 May 2008, Frans Pop wrote: > Do braille devices in general not support accented characters or is > that just this brltty window? If it's a general issue, should we > further limit the list of languages or is it something that users are > used to and know how to read around the missing characters? Hmm. Just noticed these in my logcheck mail: brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset ISO8859-1 brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset JISX0208.1983-0 brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset KSC5601.1987-0 brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset GB2312.1980-0 brltty[11186]: Could not load a braille font for charset JISX0201.1976-0 brltty[11186]: Could not load a unicode font for charset KSC5601.1987-0 brltty[11186]: Could not load a unicode font for charset GB2312.1980-0 What exactly is missing here? Do we need to add something in the installer to support languages other than English? Could CJK languages (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) be supported as well in theory? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
Hello, Frans Pop, le Sat 31 May 2008 12:52:10 +0200, a écrit : > I have made some changes to the wiki page (some formatting, some > clarifications). Thanks! > Main change is that you had "text mode", while the actual limitation > is "newt frontend without framebuffer" (text mode could be confused > with the text frontend). Agreed. > Do braille devices in general not support accented characters or is that > just this brltty window? It's just this particular setup: qemu only gets the braille dots from brltty, and these are correct (you need a braille font to see that, DejaVu has it). Then it converts letters a-z and some punctuation to text, for sighted users' conveniency, but it cannot do the same for accented letters reliably, since that part depends on the braille table which the user has chosen. In short: it's normal that in this particular setup you get '?'. You can however check that accented letters are correct by looking at the braille patterns below. Maybe that information can be added to the wiki too. Thanks, Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Friday 09 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Samuel Thibault, le Wed 07 May 2008 11:46:04 +0100, a écrit : > > Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:27:23 +0200, a écrit : > > > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > > Aaaah, that's in brltty-x11 actually. See the > > > > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility > > > > page I've just created for other fixups. > > > > > That's the bug I mentioned. I had never encountered it before, a > > patch was committed upstream in revision 3714. > > And Mario uploaded a new package with the updated revision > (3.10~r3715-1). I've tested with the new version and it works now. I have made some changes to the wiki page (some formatting, some clarifications). Main change is that you had "text mode", while the actual limitation is "newt frontend without framebuffer" (text mode could be confused with the text frontend). Do braille devices in general not support accented characters or is that just this brltty window? If it's a general issue, should we further limit the list of languages or is it something that users are used to and know how to read around the missing characters? Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
Samuel Thibault, le Wed 07 May 2008 11:46:04 +0100, a écrit : > Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:27:23 +0200, a écrit : > > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > Aaaah, that's in brltty-x11 actually. See the > > > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility > > > page I've just created for other fixups. > > > > With current instructions it still does not work for me. > > > > I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented command with > > sudo). > > Odd, you should not need sudo. We need to find out why you need that. > > > But when I start the installer (using a recent netinst), I only > > get a blank screen for qemu (no boot splash screen even; title bar > > says "QEMU [Stopped]") and the brltty window says "no screen". > > That's the bug I mentioned. I had never encountered it before, a > patch was committed upstream in revision 3714. And Mario uploaded a new package with the updated revision (3.10~r3715-1). Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 14:58:15 +0200, a écrit : > On Wednesday 07 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 13:05:23 +0200, a écrit : > > > On Wednesday 07 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > > > I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented > > > > > command with sudo). > > > > > > > > Odd, you should not need sudo. We need to find out why you need > > > > that. > > > > > > Because brltty is in /sbin... > > > > And it is in /bin in my installation because I'm using upstream, ok, > > mystery resolved and wiki updated: just use /sbin/brltty instead of > > brltty. > > Why is it in /sbin at all if it does not actually require superuser > privileges and has at least one use case where it can usefully be run by a > regular user? Because not so long ago you couldn't do anything useful with brltty as a regular user. Mario, maybe we could switch back to /bin? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Wednesday 07 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 13:05:23 +0200, a écrit : > > On Wednesday 07 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > > I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented > > > > command with sudo). > > > > > > Odd, you should not need sudo. We need to find out why you need > > > that. > > > > Because brltty is in /sbin... > > And it is in /bin in my installation because I'm using upstream, ok, > mystery resolved and wiki updated: just use /sbin/brltty instead of > brltty. Why is it in /sbin at all if it does not actually require superuser privileges and has at least one use case where it can usefully be run by a regular user? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 13:05:23 +0200, a écrit : > On Wednesday 07 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented command > > > with sudo). > > > > Odd, you should not need sudo. We need to find out why you need that. > > Because brltty is in /sbin... And it is in /bin in my installation because I'm using upstream, ok, mystery resolved and wiki updated: just use /sbin/brltty instead of brltty. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
(Please just reply to the list. No need to CC me.) On Wednesday 07 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented command > > with sudo). > > Odd, you should not need sudo. We need to find out why you need that. Because brltty is in /sbin... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:38:56 +0200, a écrit : > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > Also, the text frontend does not follow it, I guess it should be > > feasible to change the framebuffer's colors before running it? > > I guess so as long as there's no risk of affecting serial console installs. > I guess with a test that framebuffer is actually being used that should be > possible. Mmm, that being said, we also need to handle the no-framebuffer case (i.e. plain linux VT text console). Hairy but should be feasible :) Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
Frans Pop, le Wed 07 May 2008 12:27:23 +0200, a écrit : > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > Aaaah, that's in brltty-x11 actually. See the > > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility > > page I've just created for other fixups. > > With current instructions it still does not work for me. > > I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented command with > sudo). Odd, you should not need sudo. We need to find out why you need that. > But when I start the installer (using a recent netinst), I only > get a blank screen for qemu (no boot splash screen even; title bar > says "QEMU [Stopped]") and the brltty window says "no screen". That's the bug I mentioned. I had never encountered it before, a patch was committed upstream in revision 3714. It is somehow a race condition, just retrying several time may work. Unfortunately, there was another but (fixed in upstream 3713) which makes brltty refuse the 9th connection and further, so you'll have to restart brltty. It's always when you make other people test your software that you find bugs ;) > Are you using a custom mini.iso or a daily built one or what? A daily built. Thanks for your patience, Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Frans Pop, le Sun 04 May 2008 18:37:41 +0200, a écrit : > > It would also be good if someone tested the alternative "themes" that > > were created. > > Are there several of them? The manual for 4.0 only talks about the dark > them. No, we currently only have dark. If it makes sense to develop other themes for different kinds of visual limitations, then by all means feel free to develop them and submit patches. > About the dark theme, it would probably be useful to make the text > lightwhite (CGA color 0x15), not only white/grey (CGA color 0x7)? That would be fine by me. You are the experts :-) Please submit a patch. For the newt frontend I've also seen that text entry boxes are still "yellow on blue", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the theme (you first see that during network configuration when the hostname is asked). Also, how about the "red on blue" progress bar? Note that the graphical installer also supports the dark theme, so please give that a try as well (installgui theme=dark). On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Also, the text frontend does not follow it, I guess it should be > feasible to change the framebuffer's colors before running it? I guess so as long as there's no risk of affecting serial console installs. I guess with a test that framebuffer is actually being used that should be possible. Again, patches welcome. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Sunday 04 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Aaaah, that's in brltty-x11 actually. See the > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility > page I've just created for other fixups. With current instructions it still does not work for me. I do now get the brltty window (after running the documented command with sudo). But when I start the installer (using a recent netinst), I only get a blank screen for qemu (no boot splash screen even; title bar says "QEMU [Stopped]") and the brltty window says "no screen". The syslog has: brltty[25407]: BRLTTY 3.10dev [http://mielke.cc/brltty/] brltty[25408]: NoScreen Screen Driver: brltty[25408]: BrlAPI Server: release 0.5.1 brltty[25408]: Could not load a braille font for charset ISO8859-1 brltty[25408]: Could not load a braille font for charset ISO8859-1 brltty[25408]: Could not load a braille font for charset JISX0208.1983-0 brltty[25408]: Could not load a braille font for charset KSC5601.1987-0 brltty[25408]: Could not load a braille font for charset GB2312.1980-0 brltty[25408]: Could not load a braille font for charset JISX0201.1976-0 brltty[25408]: Could not load a unicode font for charset KSC5601.1987-0 brltty[25408]: Could not load a unicode font for charset GB2312.1980-0 brltty[25408]: XWindow Braille Driver: version 0.1, 2004 brltty[25408]: NoSpeech Speech Driver: brltty[25408]: BrlAPI connection fd=7 accepted: inet 127.0.0.1:51497 From the last line I guess something is happening... Are you using a custom mini.iso or a daily built one or what? Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
debconf themes [Was: Debian installer and braille]
Samuel Thibault, le Sun 04 May 2008 19:24:41 +0100, a écrit : > Frans Pop, le Sun 04 May 2008 18:37:41 +0200, a écrit : > > It would also be good if someone tested the alternative "themes" that were > > created. > > Are there several of them? The manual for 4.0 only talks about the dark > them. > > About the dark theme, it would probably be useful to make the text > lightwhite (CGA color 0x15), not only white/grey (CGA color 0x7)? Also, the text frontend does not follow it, I guess it should be feasible to change the framebuffer's colors before running it? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
Cc-ing d-accessibility for the theme part. Frans Pop, le Sun 04 May 2008 18:37:41 +0200, a écrit : > It would also be good if someone tested the alternative "themes" that were > created. Are there several of them? The manual for 4.0 only talks about the dark them. About the dark theme, it would probably be useful to make the text lightwhite (CGA color 0x15), not only white/grey (CGA color 0x7)? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
Frans Pop, le Sun 04 May 2008 18:37:41 +0200, a écrit : > I think the problem may be group memberships or something? Sort of. See the wiki for (hopefully) fixed commands. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
Samuel Thibault, le Sun 04 May 2008 18:38:33 +0100, a écrit : > Frans Pop, le Sun 04 May 2008 19:29:08 +0200, a écrit : > > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Frans Pop wrote: > > > I tried it (only quickly) and could not get it working, so some more > > > precise instructions would be welcome (the first command at least needs > > > sudo): baum_init: brlapi_openConnection: Unknown error > > > Warning: could not add USB device braille > > > > The cause may be this (repeated loads of times): > > May 4 18:33:23 faramir brltty[18548]: cannot load braille > > driver: /lib/brltty/libbrlttybxw.so > > May 4 18:33:23 faramir brltty[18548]: braille driver not loadable: xw > > May 4 18:33:25 faramir brltty[18555]: /lib/brltty/libbrlttybxw.so: cannot > > open shared object file: No such file or directory > > Aaaah, that's in brltty-x11 actually. See the > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility > page I've just created for other fixups. Also, it looks like there's a problem with the read() system call being interrupted by an alarm. It's odd I've never had it before, I'll check that. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
Frans Pop, le Sun 04 May 2008 19:29:08 +0200, a écrit : > On Sunday 04 May 2008, Frans Pop wrote: > > I tried it (only quickly) and could not get it working, so some more > > precise instructions would be welcome (the first command at least needs > > sudo): baum_init: brlapi_openConnection: Unknown error > > Warning: could not add USB device braille > > The cause may be this (repeated loads of times): > May 4 18:33:23 faramir brltty[18548]: cannot load braille > driver: /lib/brltty/libbrlttybxw.so > May 4 18:33:23 faramir brltty[18548]: braille driver not loadable: xw > May 4 18:33:25 faramir brltty[18555]: /lib/brltty/libbrlttybxw.so: cannot > open shared object file: No such file or directory Aaaah, that's in brltty-x11 actually. See the http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility page I've just created for other fixups. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Sunday 04 May 2008, Frans Pop wrote: > I tried it (only quickly) and could not get it working, so some more > precise instructions would be welcome (the first command at least needs > sudo): baum_init: brlapi_openConnection: Unknown error > Warning: could not add USB device braille The cause may be this (repeated loads of times): May 4 18:33:23 faramir brltty[18548]: cannot load braille driver: /lib/brltty/libbrlttybxw.so May 4 18:33:23 faramir brltty[18548]: braille driver not loadable: xw May 4 18:33:25 faramir brltty[18555]: /lib/brltty/libbrlttybxw.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory This was after a default installation of brltty on amd64/unstable. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Sunday 04 May 2008, Frans Pop wrote: > > I wonder whether that test could be part of a debinst testsuite, if > > there is one? > > We don't really have a test suite. That's not completely true. We do have a test setup (run mostly by Joey), but that is completely automated and I doubt that the kind of checks you want could be implemented in that. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian installer and braille
On Friday 02 May 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Starting from version 0.9.1-4, debian's qemu has support for virtual > braille device. That means that you can very easily (i.e. without any > hardware) test the debian installer support for braille device by just > installing brltty, running: > > brltty -b xw -A auth=user,host=:1 & > BRLAPI_HOST=:1 qemu -usbdevice braille -cdrom mini.iso > > and checking that debinst properly remains in text mode and that the > brltty window shows what happens in the dialogs. > > I wonder whether that test could be part of a debinst testsuite, if > there is one? We don't really have a test suite. We do have individuals who care about a certain aspect of the installer who test certain things regularly, especially when a D-I release is being prepared. I guess for accessibility that would be you :-) It would also be good if someone tested the alternative "themes" that were created. That info about qemu would be good to have available though. Maybe you could create a DebianInstaller/Accessibility wiki page and add that info there? Feel free to link that page from the main DebianInstaller page. I tried it (only quickly) and could not get it working, so some more precise instructions would be welcome (the first command at least needs sudo): baum_init: brlapi_openConnection: Unknown error Warning: could not add USB device braille I have: ii qemu0.9.1-5 fast processor emulator I think the problem may be group memberships or something? Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Debian installer and braille
Hello, Starting from version 0.9.1-4, debian's qemu has support for virtual braille device. That means that you can very easily (i.e. without any hardware) test the debian installer support for braille device by just installing brltty, running: brltty -b xw -A auth=user,host=:1 & BRLAPI_HOST=:1 qemu -usbdevice braille -cdrom mini.iso and checking that debinst properly remains in text mode and that the brltty window shows what happens in the dialogs. I wonder whether that test could be part of a debinst testsuite, if there is one? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
