Re: Extended floppy : summary
On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:19:17PM -0700, Tim Riker wrote: > > I have not found many systems that implement the "hard disk" El Torito > image other that the ia64 based systems I've used. I have found that > 2.88 emulation is in almost all BIOSes that support El Torito at all. I > would _not_ expect that these systems would handle a hybrid format. Only > the ones listed above. > > So back to the recommendation, one 2.88 floppy which is also used as the > El Torito image, and 2 or more 1.44 meg floppies for floppy boot. Other > sizes considered harmful. Finally agreed. -- Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France http://www.cri74.org PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0100, Petr ?ech wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:22:40AM -0700 , Edward Betts wrote:
> > Thierry Laronde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically
> > > recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you
> > > need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work
> >
> > I might be wrong, but I do not think that normal floppy are in size 1.44Mb,
> > they are 1.40Mb.
>
> on Apple I think. PCs use 1.44MB
It depends on how you count it. Ie, no one has still agreed on how much is 1
GB. Is it 100 kB or 1000 MB ? Or 1024 MB ??
Now the size of a floppy is 1044 kB for sure. People usually agree that 1 MB = 1024 kB
1044 kB / 1024 = 1.40 MB
>
> Petr Cech
> --
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>
> thats \\GNU\Linux$ to you
>
>
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Re: Extended floppy : summary
Thierry Laronde wrote: > BTW, I had a look to the El Torito specifications, and if the floppy > emulation is defined (720 Kb, 1.20, 1.44, 2.88), there is also "hard disk" > and "no emulation" (like a hard disk but does not mask 0x80 one). So just to > say that, if we can use more than 1.44, we will not be forced to make > something special for El torito CDs : we shall be able to reuse the same > image. I have not found many systems that implement the "hard disk" El Torito image other that the ia64 based systems I've used. I have found that 2.88 emulation is in almost all BIOSes that support El Torito at all. I would _not_ expect that these systems would handle a hybrid format. Only the ones listed above. So back to the recommendation, one 2.88 floppy which is also used as the El Torito image, and 2 or more 1.44 meg floppies for floppy boot. Other sizes considered harmful. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - short SIGs! All I need to know I could have learned in Kindergarten ... if I'd just been paying attention. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
Thierry Laronde wrote: > > El Torito is perhaps not that great, but the fact that it is put on an > iso9660 fs, and that it allows to choose between different images to boot > would have made possible, in theory, to have 1 CD for all the architectures > supported. At the moment, El Torito is only supported by PC and PPC, AFAIK. Its also dependent on the type and version of your bios for PC's, its not consistent. Glenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 04:14:00AM -0700, Tim Riker wrote: > Hey all. The danger IMHO with larger sizes is not booting them it's > supporting all those that want to make boot floppies from ftp on > platform X. > > We would need procedures (probably binaries) that can format and copy > the data onto floppies such that the user can get to the first Linux > boot. > > This is non-trivial, as you can imagine. This needs "only" to depend on fdutils for superformat, and mtools (simply because superformat needs it). But the main problem, IMO, is that this kind of stuff is very PC specific. But as I have already said, booting is firmware dependent... El Torito is perhaps not that great, but the fact that it is put on an iso9660 fs, and that it allows to choose between different images to boot would have made possible, in theory, to have 1 CD for all the architectures supported. At the moment, El Torito is only supported by PC and PPC, AFAIK. > > I suggest we stick with 1.44 as boot for PCs. > > We could use a 2.88 image for CD boot. In fact we should as getting to a > "second virtual floppy" is not readily supported by the "El Torito" CD > boot spec. > > Thierry Laronde wrote: > > > > I come back to the subject I have launched. > > > > To summarize, we can use more "space" on a high density double sided floppy, > > by using uncommon format. > > > > There are two problems : > > > > 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically > > recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you > > need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work > > > > 2) There are safe formats (that can be used everywhere, and that are not > > dangerous for the hardware), and more cutting edges ones. I list only safe > > ones : > > - 1680 Kb (21 sectors of 512b) : safe, work with Lilo, could work > > with a modified GRUB > > - 1760 Kb (11 sectors of 1Kb) : safe, but at the moment, no > > bootloader designed for that > > - Mixed Size Sectors : some safe, but not bootable, the more interesting > > format is the one derived from 2m, because the first track is a > > standard one (18 sectors of 512b). So if a stage1_5 can be put > > here in order to recognize the information and to drive the > > floppy, 1840 Kb can be used > > > > At the moment, at least 1680 Kb can be used. But I will work for some > > support for 2m with GRUB, allowing 1840 Kb. > > > > Cheers, > > > > -- > > Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France > > http://www.cri74.org > > PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org > > > > -- > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - short SIGs! > All I need to know I could have learned in Kindergarten > ... if I'd just been paying attention. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France http://www.cri74.org PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 09:58:04PM +1100, Glenn McGrath wrote: > List wrote: > > > > You want to put MORE data on a disk? It usualy takes me a 10 pack to get > > on or two I can boot from, and even then they only last a few hours... I > > think this just asking for trouble. :-) > > tim... > > > > Are you being serious ? > > Sounds like you floppy drive is broken, or your buying packs of used > disks. And if he has such problems, the size of the medium is not one of these : he simply needs to use something else ;) BTW, I had a look to the El Torito specifications, and if the floppy emulation is defined (720 Kb, 1.20, 1.44, 2.88), there is also "hard disk" and "no emulation" (like a hard disk but does not mask 0x80 one). So just to say that, if we can use more than 1.44, we will not be forced to make something special for El torito CDs : we shall be able to reuse the same image. -- Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France http://www.cri74.org PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
Hey all. The danger IMHO with larger sizes is not booting them it's supporting all those that want to make boot floppies from ftp on platform X. We would need procedures (probably binaries) that can format and copy the data onto floppies such that the user can get to the first Linux boot. This is non-trivial, as you can imagine. I suggest we stick with 1.44 as boot for PCs. We could use a 2.88 image for CD boot. In fact we should as getting to a "second virtual floppy" is not readily supported by the "El Torito" CD boot spec. Thierry Laronde wrote: > > I come back to the subject I have launched. > > To summarize, we can use more "space" on a high density double sided floppy, > by using uncommon format. > > There are two problems : > > 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically > recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you > need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work > > 2) There are safe formats (that can be used everywhere, and that are not > dangerous for the hardware), and more cutting edges ones. I list only safe > ones : > - 1680 Kb (21 sectors of 512b) : safe, work with Lilo, could work > with a modified GRUB > - 1760 Kb (11 sectors of 1Kb) : safe, but at the moment, no > bootloader designed for that > - Mixed Size Sectors : some safe, but not bootable, the more interesting > format is the one derived from 2m, because the first track is a > standard one (18 sectors of 512b). So if a stage1_5 can be put > here in order to recognize the information and to drive the > floppy, 1840 Kb can be used > > At the moment, at least 1680 Kb can be used. But I will work for some > support for 2m with GRUB, allowing 1840 Kb. > > Cheers, > > -- > Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France > http://www.cri74.org > PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - short SIGs! All I need to know I could have learned in Kindergarten ... if I'd just been paying attention. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
List wrote: > > You want to put MORE data on a disk? It usualy takes me a 10 pack to get > on or two I can boot from, and even then they only last a few hours... I > think this just asking for trouble. :-) > tim... > Are you being serious ? Sounds like you floppy drive is broken, or your buying packs of used disks. Glenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:22:40AM -0700 , Edward Betts wrote:
> Thierry Laronde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically
> > recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you
> > need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work
>
> I might be wrong, but I do not think that normal floppy are in size 1.44Mb,
> they are 1.40Mb.
on Apple I think. PCs use 1.44MB
Petr Cech
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Debian GNU/Linux maintainer - www.debian.{org,cz}
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thats \\GNU\Linux$ to you
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Re: Extended floppy : summary
You want to put MORE data on a disk? It usualy takes me a 10 pack to get on or two I can boot from, and even then they only last a few hours... I think this just asking for trouble. :-) tim... On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Thierry Laronde wrote: > I come back to the subject I have launched. > > To summarize, we can use more "space" on a high density double sided floppy, > by using uncommon format. > > There are two problems : > > 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically > recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you > need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work > > 2) There are safe formats (that can be used everywhere, and that are not > dangerous for the hardware), and more cutting edges ones. I list only safe > ones : > - 1680 Kb (21 sectors of 512b) : safe, work with Lilo, could work > with a modified GRUB > - 1760 Kb (11 sectors of 1Kb) : safe, but at the moment, no > bootloader designed for that > - Mixed Size Sectors : some safe, but not bootable, the more interesting > format is the one derived from 2m, because the first track is a > standard one (18 sectors of 512b). So if a stage1_5 can be put > here in order to recognize the information and to drive the > floppy, 1840 Kb can be used > > At the moment, at least 1680 Kb can be used. But I will work for some > support for 2m with GRUB, allowing 1840 Kb. > > Cheers, > > -- > Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France > http://www.cri74.org > PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Extended floppy : summary
Thierry Laronde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically > recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you > need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work I might be wrong, but I do not think that normal floppy are in size 1.44Mb, they are 1.40Mb. -- Don't worry -- shop. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Extended floppy : summary
I come back to the subject I have launched. To summarize, we can use more "space" on a high density double sided floppy, by using uncommon format. There are two problems : 1) Because these formats are unusual, the BIOS doesn't automagically recognize them, and try to access them as normal 1.44 Mb floppies -> you need a bootloader to manage the format, and dd'ing Linux can not work 2) There are safe formats (that can be used everywhere, and that are not dangerous for the hardware), and more cutting edges ones. I list only safe ones : - 1680 Kb (21 sectors of 512b) : safe, work with Lilo, could work with a modified GRUB - 1760 Kb (11 sectors of 1Kb) : safe, but at the moment, no bootloader designed for that - Mixed Size Sectors : some safe, but not bootable, the more interesting format is the one derived from 2m, because the first track is a standard one (18 sectors of 512b). So if a stage1_5 can be put here in order to recognize the information and to drive the floppy, 1840 Kb can be used At the moment, at least 1680 Kb can be used. But I will work for some support for 2m with GRUB, allowing 1840 Kb. Cheers, -- Thierry LARONDE, Centre de Ressources Informatiques, Archamps - France http://www.cri74.org PingOO, serveur de com sur distribution GNU/Linux: http://www.pingoo.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
