Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi, On Sonntag, 31. Mai 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: > > IMO that means the debian-edu concept is not suitable for this document > > as it is not intended to be published as a separate manual. Why? Can you explain, Frans? As Eric explains, those are two different documents... Actually I wanted to reply to him, but don't have anything to add to what he wrote :-) regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
(No need to CC me, I read the list. I CCed you because you were CCed in earlier posts and I'm not sure if you are subscribed.) On Sunday 31 May 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: > In summary, the "Illustrated Guide" serves a different audience than > the official manual does. On that basis, I hope you will consider it > for inclusion as a separate manual. I very much doubt that will happen, for the following reasons. 1) I would hate to see translator effort taken away from the official installation guide. 2) Your guide, although useful for new users, is rather limited in scope: - it only really covers the i386 and amd64 architectures - it only covers "simple" installations 3) Because of the screenshots, your manual will be fairly big in size and because of that not suitable for inclusion on for example CD images. Your guide is also essentially (except for the screenshots and some of the post-installation stuff you have) already covered by the appendix "Installation Howto" in the Installation Guide. So I'd personally like to keep your guide as an unofficial document, just as there've been loads of similar documents and web pages in the past. If anybody wants to use and translate it, that is of course excellent. But I personally don't see us (the D-I developers) adopting it as an official document, especially as I don't think we really want to take on the implicit responsibility of keeping it up to date. As the wiki is a community effort, it is IMO a perfect location for the document. Publishing it on the Debian website [1] or including it in the archive would give it the status I'm not sure it deserves. Cheers, FJP [1] Publishing it on a non-Debian website is no problem of course. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Frans Pop wrote: IMO that means the debian-edu concept is not suitable for this document as it is not intended to be published as a separate manual. We have the Installation Guide for that. This document is intended to remain on the Wiki as an optional reference for users and as such translations should also be done and be available as wiki pages. With all due respect to the Debian Installer team, who produced a fabulous installation manual[1], I would like to encourage you to publish the "Illustrated Guide ..."[2] as a separate manual because the two documents serve two distinctly different audiences. The comprehensive nature (143 pages) of the official installation manual is invaluable to anyone who has to perform a complex and/or uncommon task (such as using TFTP to boot a computer over a network from another machine). The "Illustrated Guide" is designed to serve desktop users who are installing a GNU/Linux operating system for the first time. While the official installation manual provides a nice 3-page installation HowTo (in Appendix A), it does not cater directly to the needs of new GNU/Linux users. By contrast, the "Illustrated Guide" is 10 pages long and is filled with screenshots (to make the new user feel comfortable). To add a touch of comprehensiveness, I also included 12 pages of appendices to introduce them to package management, help them select packages (e.g. office software, music managers, etc.) and work with an MS Windows partition. In summary, the "Illustrated Guide" serves a different audience than the official manual does. On that basis, I hope you will consider it for inclusion as a separate manual. Sincerely, - Eric Doviak [1] http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual [2] http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
On Sunday 31 May 2009, Holger Levsen wrote: > The wiki is used to create and edit the english version. > .po files are used for translation. > The other tools are used to create HTML and PDF versions from the wikis > docbook output and the .po files. They are only used when+by building > the package. IMO that means the debian-edu concept is not suitable for this document as it is not intended to be published as a separate manual. We have the Installation Guide for that. This document is intended to remain on the Wiki as an optional reference for users and as such translations should also be done and be available as wiki pages. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi Stefano, On Sonntag, 31. Mai 2009, Stefano Canepa wrote: > This structure sounds good for me, but I don't understand how do you > think to manage the wiki pages working this way as it looks like you are > proposing to use po4a, XML and all other tools used in documentation > projects. The wiki is used to create and edit the english version. .po files are used for translation. The other tools are used to create HTML and PDF versions from the wikis docbook output and the .po files. They are only used when+by building the package. You can include images in the wiki version and translated images into svn, "next to the .po files". If translated images exists, they will be used, else the english original ones. regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Il giorno sab, 30/05/2009 alle 18.22 +0200, Holger Levsen ha scritto: > Hi Eric, > > On Freitag, 29. Mai 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: > [and the rest I removed] > > > I'd suggest Eric puts this document under a proper licence (/me suggests > > > GPL2+, just add another appendix add the bottom with the licence text...) > > > and then hopefully everybody is happy to add/edit content :-) > > Will do! > > Nice! > > Eric, to make the document easily (=so I can re-use existing code) > translatable and to create PDF and HTML versions, you need to have a defined > structure in the wiki. It's quite easy and I'm happy to help, so don't > worry :) > > Look at the wiki source of these two pages, you will need to create similar > ones: > > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/ > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/AllInOne > > I suggest you also look at and copy these pages: > > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/Translations > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/CopyRight > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/AppendixA > (All the pages names are arbituray as long as they are listed in the index > and > AllInOne pages, which have to have these names. Subpages are also possible.) > > So for your guide I'd suggest to use the following URLs: > > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/AllInOne > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/About > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/FirstSteps > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/InstallationProcess > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/Translations > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/CopyRight > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/AppendixA > http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/$and_so_on... > > If you do this, the result will look similar to > http://maintainer.skolelinux.org/debian-edu-doc/ and be available as .debs. > Translations are done with .po files (and thus standard tools). > > If you have any further questions, please dont't hesitate to ask me! I'm > happy > to help :-) This structure sounds good for me, but I don't understand how do you think to manage the wiki pages working this way as it looks like you are proposing to use po4a, XML and all other tools used in documentation projects. Bye Stefano -- Stefano Canepa aka sc: s...@linux.it - http://www.stefanocanepa.it Three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience and hubris. Le tre grandi virtù di un programmatore: pigrizia, impazienza e arroganza. (Larry Wall) signature.asc Description: Questa è una parte del messaggio firmata digitalmente
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi Eric, On Freitag, 29. Mai 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: [and the rest I removed] > > I'd suggest Eric puts this document under a proper licence (/me suggests > > GPL2+, just add another appendix add the bottom with the licence text...) > > and then hopefully everybody is happy to add/edit content :-) > Will do! Nice! Eric, to make the document easily (=so I can re-use existing code) translatable and to create PDF and HTML versions, you need to have a defined structure in the wiki. It's quite easy and I'm happy to help, so don't worry :) Look at the wiki source of these two pages, you will need to create similar ones: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/ http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/AllInOne I suggest you also look at and copy these pages: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/Translations http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/CopyRight http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/AppendixA (All the pages names are arbituray as long as they are listed in the index and AllInOne pages, which have to have these names. Subpages are also possible.) So for your guide I'd suggest to use the following URLs: http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/AllInOne http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/About http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/FirstSteps http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/InstallationProcess http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/Translations http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/CopyRight http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/AppendixA http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall/$and_so_on... If you do this, the result will look similar to http://maintainer.skolelinux.org/debian-edu-doc/ and be available as .debs. Translations are done with .po files (and thus standard tools). If you have any further questions, please dont't hesitate to ask me! I'm happy to help :-) regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Frank Lin PIAT wrote: Your recommendation aren't consistent with Debian. Given my preference for consistency over confusion, I will definitely edit the guide to make it consistent with Debian's recommendations. Just give me a week or two to make the changes. I'm rather busy at the moment. * openoffice, gimp, ekiga, pigin... are installed by default[1] so there is no need to explain how to install them. Explaining that the packages are there is also valuable information, so instead of removing those items, I think I'll just include a note that says that they are installed by default. * Debian has chosen to install openoffice rather that abiword and gnumeric, so it's awkward that your first example is to install it. Shuffling the order shouldn't be too difficult. Will do! Also the wiki pages http://wiki.debian.org/WindowsEquivalent aims to list equivalent application, *in* Debian. It isn't complete yet. I'll definitely include that list. (I might even add to it myself). Holger Levsen wrote: I'd suggest Eric puts this document under a proper licence (/me suggests GPL2+, just add another appendix add the bottom with the licence text...) and then hopefully everybody is happy to add/edit content :-) Will do! Thanks Franklin and Holger! - Eric -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi, On Freitag, 29. Mai 2009, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: > Just a quick comment regarding... I'd suggest Eric puts this document under a proper licence (/me suggests GPL2+, just add another appendix add the bottom with the licence text...) and then hopefully everybody is happy to add/edit content :-) regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hello, On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 13:01 -0800, Praveen A wrote: > 2009/2/18 Eric Doviak : > > For people who are new to GNU/Linux and are simply trying to install Debian > > on a home desktop, I wrote an "Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian > > GNU/Linux."[3] > > Some comments, > Now openjdk is in debian so it is better to suggest it over gcj. Just a quick comment regarding the Appendix D "Suggested Packages". Your recommendation aren't consistent with Debian. * openoffice, gimp, ekiga, pigin... are installed by default[1] so there is no need to explain how to install them. * Debian has chosen to install openoffice rather that abiword and gnumeric, so it's awkward that your first example is to install it. Also the wiki pages http://wiki.debian.org/WindowsEquivalent aims to list equivalent application, *in* Debian. It isn't complete yet. Great guide, thanks Franklin [1] reminder, to list package installed by default (without dependencies), use tasksel install -t desktop aptitude search ~t^desktop\$ ~t^gnome-desktop$ The base system is: aptitude search ~prequired ~pimportant ~pstandard A few other package could be auto-installed like popcon and hardware related packages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi Stefano, On Donnerstag, 28. Mai 2009, Stefano Canepa wrote: > I'll try to find out the time to translate it into italian. ok, you cannot (sensible) translate it yet. But I also got an offer for a spanish translation, so I plan to go ahead and provide the means for proper translations soon. I'll get back in touch with you once that has happened. regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Il giorno lun, 25/05/2009 alle 19.36 +0200, Holger Levsen ha scritto: > Hi Eric, > > On Sonntag, 22. Februar 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: > > At Holger's suggestion, I placed the "Illustrated Guide to Installing > > Debian" on the Debian Wiki[1]. > > [1] http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall > > Cool! > > > I'm not sure what the next step is here, so please let me know what > > else I can do/should do to help. > > > I'll blog about it, to make it a bit more known :-) I'll try to find out the time to translate it into italian. Stefano -- Stefano Canepa aka sc: s...@linux.it - http://www.stefanocanepa.it Three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience and hubris. Le tre grandi virtù di un programmatore: pigrizia, impazienza e arroganza. (Larry Wall) signature.asc Description: Questa è una parte del messaggio firmata digitalmente
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi Eric, On Sonntag, 22. Februar 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: > At Holger's suggestion, I placed the "Illustrated Guide to Installing > Debian" on the Debian Wiki[1]. > [1] http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall Cool! > I'm not sure what the next step is here, so please let me know what > else I can do/should do to help. I'll blog about it, to make it a bit more known :-) regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
At Holger's suggestion, I placed the "Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian" on the Debian Wiki[1]. The text is pretty much the same, but I made some changes so that it would be appropriate for Debian documentation (e.g. removing the word "I," removing my opinions, etc.). At Praveen's suggestion, I also recommended that users install the "icedtea-gcjwebplugin" (which uses OpenJDK) instead of "java-gcj-compat-plugin." I'm not sure what the next step is here, so please let me know what else I can do/should do to help. Enjoy!, - Eric [1] http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Hi Eric, On Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009, Eric Doviak wrote: > For people who are new to GNU/Linux and are simply trying to install Debian > on a home desktop, I wrote an "Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian > GNU/Linux."[3] Very nice! > I never intended to create an official Debian document, but -- if you think > that it is of good quality I definitly think so! http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Etch/ is written in a similar spirit (see the GettingStarted guide there). (But it's targetted at yet another audience then your document.) It is maintained on the Debian wiki (this only works with an editor who reviews all edits and acts when needed), and then turned into the debian-edu-doc package, see it's source code to see how :) Then it's translated via .po files and the resulting html and pdf versions are put online at http://maintainer.skolelinux.org/debian-edu-doc/ - as well as uploaded to debian as the debian-edu-doc package. (Work on the lenny version has begun, but hasn't been finished by far. Just replace s/Etch/Lenny/ in the above wiki.d.o URL.) regards, Holger P.S.: I've set the reply-to to the debian-doc mailinglist, please cc: me on replies as I'm not subscribed. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
ccing debian-doc.
2009/2/18 Eric Doviak :
> Dear Debian Installer Team,
>
> Congratulations on the recent release of Debian Lenny.
>
> I would also like to tip my hat to the people who worked on the installation
> guide[1] and its translations into 16 languages. They did a fantastic job.
> The comprehensive nature of that 141-page guide is invaluable to anyone who
> has to perform a complex and/or uncommon task (such as using TFTP to boot a
> computer over a network from another machine).
>
> The trouble with comprehensiveness is that it frightens a new user who is
> simply trying to set up a home desktop. For them, Debian's official
> installation guide is not a good introduction to Debian and it is completely
> at odds with the spirit of projects like Robert Millan's
> Goodbye-Microsoft.com[2], where the goal is to provide the simplest possible
> transition from MS Windows to Debian GNU/Linux.
>
> For people who are new to GNU/Linux and are simply trying to install Debian
> on a home desktop, I wrote an "Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian
> GNU/Linux."[3]
>
> The guide is 10 pages long and is filled with screenshots (to make the user
> feel comfortable). To add a touch of comprehensiveness, I also included 12
> pages of appendices to help them select partition sizes, introduce them to
> package management, etc.
>
> When I wrote the guide, I had the users of Goodbye-Microsoft.com in mind, so
> I submitted it to Robert Millan, who asked me to send it to you.
>
> I never intended to create an official Debian document, but -- if you think
> that it is of good quality -- I would be happy to help you turn it into one
> ("source code"[4] and all 73 screenshots[5]).
>
> Let me know what you think of the documents and please let me know what I
> can do to help make Debian more friendly to new users.
>
> Thanks,
> - Eric Doviak
>
>
> [1] http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
> [2] http://goodbye-microsoft.com/
> [3] http://www.doviak.net/debian/debian_install_guide.pdf
> [4] http://www.doviak.net/debian/debian_install_guide.tar.gz
> [5] http://www.doviak.net/debian/debian_install_shots.tar.gz
>
>
>
--
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(as seen on /.)
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Re: Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
2009/2/18 Eric Doviak : > For people who are new to GNU/Linux and are simply trying to install Debian > on a home desktop, I wrote an "Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian > GNU/Linux."[3] Thanks, this is nice. Some comments, Now openjdk is in debian so it is better to suggest it over gcj. Also I would like to see these docs part of debian. -- പ്രവീണ് അരിമ്പ്രത്തൊടിയില് I know my rights; I want my phone call! What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak? (as seen on /.) Join The DRM Elimination Crew Now! http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-DRM-Campaign -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian GNU/Linux
Dear Debian Installer Team,
Congratulations on the recent release of Debian Lenny.
I would also like to tip my hat to the people who worked on the installation
guide[1] and its translations into 16 languages. They did a fantastic job.
The comprehensive nature of that 141-page guide is invaluable to anyone who
has to perform a complex and/or uncommon task (such as using TFTP to boot a
computer over a network from another machine).
The trouble with comprehensiveness is that it frightens a new user who is
simply trying to set up a home desktop. For them, Debian's official
installation guide is not a good introduction to Debian and it is completely
at odds with the spirit of projects like Robert Millan's
Goodbye-Microsoft.com[2], where the goal is to provide the simplest possible
transition from MS Windows to Debian GNU/Linux.
For people who are new to GNU/Linux and are simply trying to install Debian
on a home desktop, I wrote an "Illustrated Guide to Installing Debian
GNU/Linux."[3]
The guide is 10 pages long and is filled with screenshots (to make the user
feel comfortable). To add a touch of comprehensiveness, I also included 12
pages of appendices to help them select partition sizes, introduce them to
package management, etc.
When I wrote the guide, I had the users of Goodbye-Microsoft.com in mind, so
I submitted it to Robert Millan, who asked me to send it to you.
I never intended to create an official Debian document, but -- if you think
that it is of good quality -- I would be happy to help you turn it into one
("source code"[4] and all 73 screenshots[5]).
Let me know what you think of the documents and please let me know what I
can do to help make Debian more friendly to new users.
Thanks,
- Eric Doviak
[1] http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
[2] http://goodbye-microsoft.com/
[3] http://www.doviak.net/debian/debian_install_guide.pdf
[4] http://www.doviak.net/debian/debian_install_guide.tar.gz
[5] http://www.doviak.net/debian/debian_install_shots.tar.gz
