Re: On installation media and firmware [Re: New section for firmware]
Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl writes: On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: It would be nice if you (or someone else) would then explain[1] why having a limited set of d-i images + cd images which contained the non-free firmware necessary for certain hardware to boot would be an intractable solution. From where I sit, the major issues with it would be: The major issue is that it does not solve all use-cases where firmware is needed. It does not solve the problem for netboot installations, nor for hd-media installations. 1) So you are saying the NIC can netboot without firmware just fine but won't work under linux at all? 2) Also which hd-media installations need firmware to access udebs? 3) A d-i image which contained the non-free firmware would work just fine for netboot or hd-media. Also it does not have to solve all use-cases. It just has to solve more than without this solution. Further not all install media have to work all the time. So what if the netboot.iso won't work and you need a non-free-businesscard.iso due to firmware udebs? As long as it allows at least one method to work and allows more people to install Debian than without that is a plus. Also, D-I currently does not support switching CDs during early parts of the installation. Implementing that would be a fairly major pain. With a cd image which contains the firmware there is no need to switch the CD to a second just firmware image. We don't want to have users jump through hoops. Having to burn an additional image just for firmware and having to switch to that image and then switch back to the installation image is IMO a major hoop. The hoops are for the debian-cd team to jump through, for them to generate a 100% free and an actually usable image. Just like there was cd1 and cd1+non-us a while back there would be cd1 and cd1+firmware. It also does not really add anything to the option we already have to load firmware from removable media. It would remove the need for the user to jump through hoops to create and use a second removable media. Plus you said above CD switching isn't possible early on. Cheers, FJP MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: On installation media and firmware [Re: New section for firmware]
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Frans Pop wrote: On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Don Armstrong wrote: Sure it does; it's a set of the initial media which contains the non-free firmware in *addition* to the normal stuff contained on the fully DFSG-free media. [You'd just need this for CD1, the netinst, business card and cd images, and perhaps the m-a DVD.] The only additional user-facing complexity is the additional media and the need for users to be able to differentiate between the media types. I cannot make it more clear than this: the debian-boot and debian-cd teams are against any such solution. That's all fine and good, but why? Don Armstrong -- No matter how many instances of white swans we may have observed, this does not justify the conclusion that all swans are white. -- Sir Karl Popper _Logic of Scientific Discovery_ http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: On installation media and firmware [Re: New section for firmware]
On Sat, 03 Jan 2009, Frans Pop wrote: On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: It would be nice if you (or someone else) would then explain[1] why having a limited set of d-i images + cd images which contained the non-free firmware necessary for certain hardware to boot would be an intractable solution. From where I sit, the major issues with it would be: The major issue is that it does not solve all use-cases where firmware is needed. It does not solve the problem for netboot installations, nor for hd-media installations. Sure it does; it's a set of the initial media which contains the non-free firmware in *addition* to the normal stuff contained on the fully DFSG-free media. [You'd just need this for CD1, the netinst, business card and cd images, and perhaps the m-a DVD.] The only additional user-facing complexity is the additional media and the need for users to be able to differentiate between the media types. We don't want to have users jump through hoops. Having to burn an additional image just for firmware and having to switch to that image and then switch back to the installation image is IMO a major hoop. Having an additional image just for firmware was not what I suggested. Don Armstrong -- If you have the slightest bit of intellectual integrity you cannot support the government. -- anonymous http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: On installation media and firmware [Re: New section for firmware]
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Don Armstrong wrote: Sure it does; it's a set of the initial media which contains the non-free firmware in *addition* to the normal stuff contained on the fully DFSG-free media. [You'd just need this for CD1, the netinst, business card and cd images, and perhaps the m-a DVD.] The only additional user-facing complexity is the additional media and the need for users to be able to differentiate between the media types. I cannot make it more clear than this: the debian-boot and debian-cd teams are against any such solution. Yes, in theory it is all possible (even though it would require fairly structural changes mainly in d-cd), but no, we will not work on implementing it and I doubt anyone will even seriously consider patches implementing it if submitted by others. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: On installation media and firmware [Re: New section for firmware]
On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: It would be nice if you (or someone else) would then explain[1] why having a limited set of d-i images + cd images which contained the non-free firmware necessary for certain hardware to boot would be an intractable solution. From where I sit, the major issues with it would be: The major issue is that it does not solve all use-cases where firmware is needed. It does not solve the problem for netboot installations, nor for hd-media installations. Also, D-I currently does not support switching CDs during early parts of the installation. Implementing that would be a fairly major pain. We don't want to have users jump through hoops. Having to burn an additional image just for firmware and having to switch to that image and then switch back to the installation image is IMO a major hoop. It also does not really add anything to the option we already have to load firmware from removable media. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
On installation media and firmware [Re: New section for firmware]
Switching from -vote to -boot and -cd. On Wed, 24 Dec 2008, Frans Pop wrote: On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: 1: -vote really is the wrong list to discuss this on; Cc'ing debian-cd so knowledgeable people there can tell me I'm on crack. Second of all, the analysis for the impact on installations of firmware and why the D-I team would very much prefer to have any firmware included both on official CD images and in other D-I images (such as netboot, floppy and hd-media) has already been done and posted by Joey Hess ages ago and discussed repeatedly, both on the debian-boot list and on d-vote, and I'm quite certain also on d-project and/or d-devel. I don't think there's any argument against having firmware in a limited set of CD images and other d-i media which we distribute like we distribute non-free. Furthermore, the major portion of what I suggested doing has not been discussed recently on -project or -devel TTBOMK. It's a pity that we seem to need to explain this over and over again in random threads. It would be nice if you (or someone else) would then explain[1] why having a limited set of d-i images + cd images which contained the non-free firmware necessary for certain hardware to boot would be an intractable solution. From where I sit, the major issues with it would be: 1. Additional testing required 2. Increase in cdimage mirror utilization 3. Work to actual implement it I submit that the additional testing for #1 will be required when the firmware is placed on the images, regardless of whether we produce images not containing it, so the major burden of testing here seems to be to check that the firmware-related codepaths are only triggered when the firmware is there. #2 should be on the order of a few gigabytes, which is dwarfed by the increase in the size of the installation sets from version to version. [If our mirror operators will have problems with this, we've got far more serious ones.] #3 is what it is. Don Armstrong 1: You dealt with problems with having an entire set duplicated and a set of ancilliary issues, none of which I proposed. -- This message brought to you by weapons of mass destruction related program activities, and the letter G. http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
