Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 13/02/2021 23:08, Steve McIntyre wrote:

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 10:38:03PM +, Bernard McNeill wrote:

Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:45:27 +):

The installation appears to go fine.
The installer creates a new entry 'Debian' in the boot list.
Machine rebooted, pressing F12 to get into one-time boot option.
Choice is 'Debian', or 'Windows Boot Manager'.
Take option 'Debian' and system then hangs with:
'Press F1 key to retry boot.'
'Press F2 key to reboot into setup.'
'Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'


During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
What did you choose there?

Is the Windows system still bootable as usual?

Providing the installer logfiles would also be good, by the way...
See 
https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch06s03.html#save-logs


Holger



+ During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
+ where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
I do not think I was given any choice - everything ran through to the point
where I was warned to remove the installation media before rebooting.


It's a UEFI system, so that's normal. I think what you're hitting here
looks like a similar bug to https://bugs.debian.org/905319. If you
follow the same workaround as suggested in

   https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=905319#10

If you use the installation media to boot into rescue mode, it also
has an option to do the EFI removable media path thing.

***Be aware***: this will stop your system booting Windows directly,
you'll have to go via Grub to get there. I think there is a firmware
bug that's the root cause of your problem.


I have just realised something else:

As above, if 'Debian' boot option taken, system hangs.
Cold restart with external HDD (containing Debian) still plugged in, no 
F12'ing (to select boot option) results in booting into Windows.


This is a surprise to me, because 'Debian' is the first option in the 
boot order list. With this order, surely system should have hung?


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 13/02/2021 23:08, Steve McIntyre wrote:

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 10:38:03PM +, Bernard McNeill wrote:

Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:45:27 +):

The installation appears to go fine.
The installer creates a new entry 'Debian' in the boot list.
Machine rebooted, pressing F12 to get into one-time boot option.
Choice is 'Debian', or 'Windows Boot Manager'.
Take option 'Debian' and system then hangs with:
'Press F1 key to retry boot.'
'Press F2 key to reboot into setup.'
'Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'


During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
What did you choose there?

Is the Windows system still bootable as usual?

Providing the installer logfiles would also be good, by the way...
See 
https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch06s03.html#save-logs


Holger



+ During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
+ where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
I do not think I was given any choice - everything ran through to the point
where I was warned to remove the installation media before rebooting.


It's a UEFI system, so that's normal. I think what you're hitting here
looks like a similar bug to https://bugs.debian.org/905319. If you
follow the same workaround as suggested in

   https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=905319#10

If you use the installation media to boot into rescue mode, it also
has an option to do the EFI removable media path thing.

***Be aware***: this will stop your system booting Windows directly,
you'll have to go via Grub to get there. I think there is a firmware
bug that's the root cause of your problem.



Question-1:
Is it possible to create a bootable flash drive, such that:

If the bootable flash drive is plugged in, and the machine rebooted with 
F12 to get into one-time boot, then booted from that flash drive, then 
control passes to the Debian installation on the external HDD.


If the bootable flash drive is not plugged in, control just passes to 
Windows.


Question-2:
If it is believed that there is a firmware bug, has this been reported 
to the manufacturer/supplier?


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Steve McIntyre]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 10:38:03PM +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
>> Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:45:27 
>> +):
>> > The installation appears to go fine.
>> > The installer creates a new entry 'Debian' in the boot list.
>> > Machine rebooted, pressing F12 to get into one-time boot option.
>> > Choice is 'Debian', or 'Windows Boot Manager'.
>> > Take option 'Debian' and system then hangs with:
>> > 'Press F1 key to retry boot.'
>> > 'Press F2 key to reboot into setup.'
>> > 'Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'
>> 
>> During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
>> where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
>> What did you choose there?
>> 
>> Is the Windows system still bootable as usual?
>> 
>> Providing the installer logfiles would also be good, by the way...
>> See 
>> https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch06s03.html#save-logs
>> 
>> 
>> Holger
>> 
>> 
>+ During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
>+ where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
>I do not think I was given any choice - everything ran through to the point
>where I was warned to remove the installation media before rebooting.

It's a UEFI system, so that's normal. I think what you're hitting here
looks like a similar bug to https://bugs.debian.org/905319. If you
follow the same workaround as suggested in

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=905319#10

If you use the installation media to boot into rescue mode, it also
has an option to do the EFI removable media path thing.

***Be aware***: this will stop your system booting Windows directly,
you'll have to go via Grub to get there. I think there is a firmware
bug that's the root cause of your problem.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"We're the technical experts.  We were hired so that management could
 ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs."  -- Mike Andrews

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 13/02/2021 21:43, Holger Wansing wrote:

Hi,

Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:45:27 +):

The installation appears to go fine.
The installer creates a new entry 'Debian' in the boot list.
Machine rebooted, pressing F12 to get into one-time boot option.
Choice is 'Debian', or 'Windows Boot Manager'.
Take option 'Debian' and system then hangs with:
'Press F1 key to retry boot.'
'Press F2 key to reboot into setup.'
'Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'


During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
What did you choose there?

Is the Windows system still bootable as usual?


Providing the installer logfiles would also be good, by the way...
See 
https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch06s03.html#save-logs


Holger



+ During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
+ where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
I do not think I was given any choice - everything ran through to the 
point where I was warned to remove the installation media before rebooting.


+ Is the Windows system still bootable as usual?
Yes.

+ Providing the installer logfiles would also be good, by the way...
+ See 
https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch06s03.html#save-logs

On a quick look, I don't see how to get at these if I can't get into Debian.

Best regards






I don't think I was prompted

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:45:27 +):
> The installation appears to go fine.
> The installer creates a new entry 'Debian' in the boot list.
> Machine rebooted, pressing F12 to get into one-time boot option.
> Choice is 'Debian', or 'Windows Boot Manager'.
> Take option 'Debian' and system then hangs with:
> 'Press F1 key to retry boot.'
> 'Press F2 key to reboot into setup.'
> 'Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'

During Debian installation, rather at the end, you have been prompted
where to install the GRUB bootloader, right?
What did you choose there?

Is the Windows system still bootable as usual?


Providing the installer logfiles would also be good, by the way...
See 
https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch06s03.html#save-logs


Holger


-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 13/02/2021 19:08, Holger Wansing wrote:

Hi,

Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:24:35 +):

And there was a difference: This time, when the partitioner came up, it
could see the internal SSD (previously it didn't, just showed the
external HDD and the installer flash drive).

I have no idea why this should be, but carried on installing Debian over
the entire external HDD.

And I still get the same result...it's as though the installer is not
setting the Debian boot option to point to the HDD.


What's the error/problem/message in detail?
Installation wents through fine, but machine cannot boot newly installed
Debian system?
Or installation fails at some step?


Holger



The installation appears to go fine.
The installer creates a new entry 'Debian' in the boot list.
Machine rebooted, pressing F12 to get into one-time boot option.
Choice is 'Debian', or 'Windows Boot Manager'.
Take option 'Debian' and system then hangs with:
'Press F1 key to retry boot.'
'Press F2 key to reboot into setup.'
'Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'

None of which lead to Debian.

Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Bernard McNeill  wrote (Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:24:35 +):
> And there was a difference: This time, when the partitioner came up, it 
> could see the internal SSD (previously it didn't, just showed the 
> external HDD and the installer flash drive).
> 
> I have no idea why this should be, but carried on installing Debian over 
> the entire external HDD.
> 
> And I still get the same result...it's as though the installer is not 
> setting the Debian boot option to point to the HDD.

What's the error/problem/message in detail?
Installation wents through fine, but machine cannot boot newly installed
Debian system?
Or installation fails at some step?


Holger


-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 10/02/2021 10:11, Bernard McNeill wrote:



On 08/02/2021 23:06, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:59 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:


On 08/02/2021 22:44, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:26 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
[...]

I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk
(spinning or otherwise) on the machine.
The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to
'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].



Interesting that Dell is making a distinction here between SATA and 
PCIe mass

storage, but calling its RAID foolishness "SATA Operation - RAID On".
Does this imply maybe that the SSD connected via PCIe and not via 
the SATA

wiring/controller, is exempt from the RAID interference?  I don't know.

It sure would be nice if that is what they mean though.
Maybe you can carefully test how this really works.
(Make the backup first though)




Is it even possible to RAID an SDD?


With software RAID, you can combine all manner of storage devices into a
"managed device" even different physical types of storage.  What this 
built-in
factory RAID might be is unclear to me.  From the misbehavior of the 
system
regarding your sometimes attached external USB disk (with the 
attempted debian

install on it) it seems likely that the factory/BIOS RAID thing might be
interposing itself between disks as seen by running programs (like the 
debian

installer) and the actual hardware storage itself.

[...]



FWIW, I found this link relating to Dell SSD, SATA and AHCI/RAID On.

https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/Dell-M-2-FAQ-regarding-AHCI-vs-RAID-ON-Storage-Drivers-M-2-Lanes/td-p/507257 

But still unclear to me if changing 'RAID On' to 'AHCI' is going to 
cause a problem.


Best regards


FYI
Being persistent, I arranged for backup Windows knowledge in case 
everything fell apart, entered Windows safe mode, rebooted and changed 
the BIOS to: SATA Operation=AHCI (from RAID On), rebooted and got out of 
Windows safe mode.


Windows seemed undamaged, so I went on to reinstall Debian on the 
external HDD.


And there was a difference: This time, when the partitioner came up, it 
could see the internal SSD (previously it didn't, just showed the 
external HDD and the installer flash drive).


I have no idea why this should be, but carried on installing Debian over 
the entire external HDD.


And I still get the same result...it's as though the installer is not 
setting the Debian boot option to point to the HDD.


Any ideas gratefully received.

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 08/02/2021 23:06, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:59 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:


On 08/02/2021 22:44, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:26 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
[...]

I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk
(spinning or otherwise) on the machine.
The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to
'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].



Interesting that Dell is making a distinction here between SATA and PCIe mass
storage, but calling its RAID foolishness "SATA Operation - RAID On".
Does this imply maybe that the SSD connected via PCIe and not via the SATA
wiring/controller, is exempt from the RAID interference?  I don't know.

It sure would be nice if that is what they mean though.
Maybe you can carefully test how this really works.
(Make the backup first though)




Is it even possible to RAID an SDD?


With software RAID, you can combine all manner of storage devices into a
"managed device" even different physical types of storage.  What this built-in
factory RAID might be is unclear to me.  From the misbehavior of the system
regarding your sometimes attached external USB disk (with the attempted debian
install on it) it seems likely that the factory/BIOS RAID thing might be
interposing itself between disks as seen by running programs (like the debian
installer) and the actual hardware storage itself.

[...]



FWIW, I found this link relating to Dell SSD, SATA and AHCI/RAID On.

https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/Dell-M-2-FAQ-regarding-AHCI-vs-RAID-ON-Storage-Drivers-M-2-Lanes/td-p/507257
But still unclear to me if changing 'RAID On' to 'AHCI' is going to 
cause a problem.


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 09/02/2021 00:43, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:59 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:


But, as I think I mentioned earlier, I am very reluctant indeed to mess
around with Windows itself.
I have backed up the user data, but I am not at all sure how to
re-install Windows itself.  If the machine failed I suspect I would take
it to a specialist with a copy of the user data.


I suggest at this point you should try out one of the debian "live" images.
These can be copied to a USB stick (via win32diskimager or others) just like you
copied the installer to USB.  Then, you boot into the live image and it runs
completely from the USB stick -- you have a mostly complete linux system you can
experiment with, without permanently writing it onto any other disks, and
without the live system needing to write to any other disks.

I would suggest the current stable "gnome" live system, which is familiar to
Windows users -- and I also suggest the so-called "non-free" version (which just
means it includes various firmware files for wifi or fancy graphics adapters,
etc.)

Download here:
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-10.8.0-amd64-gnome+nonfree.iso



I am going to try your suggestion.

For the record, I did fully reinstall Debian with Fastboot (both Windows 
and BIOS) disabled.  I got the same issues as before, but can confirm 
(because I was looking for it) that the installer/partitioner does not 
seem to see the SSD.

It could see both the install USB flash drive and the external USB HDD.

Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:59 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> 
> But, as I think I mentioned earlier, I am very reluctant indeed to mess 
> around with Windows itself.
> I have backed up the user data, but I am not at all sure how to 
> re-install Windows itself.  If the machine failed I suspect I would take 
> it to a specialist with a copy of the user data.

I suggest at this point you should try out one of the debian "live" images.
These can be copied to a USB stick (via win32diskimager or others) just like you
copied the installer to USB.  Then, you boot into the live image and it runs
completely from the USB stick -- you have a mostly complete linux system you can
experiment with, without permanently writing it onto any other disks, and
without the live system needing to write to any other disks.

I would suggest the current stable "gnome" live system, which is familiar to
Windows users -- and I also suggest the so-called "non-free" version (which just
means it includes various firmware files for wifi or fancy graphics adapters,
etc.)

Download here: 
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-10.8.0-amd64-gnome+nonfree.iso

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:59 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> 
> On 08/02/2021 22:44, Lou Poppler wrote:
> > On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:26 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> > [...]
> > > I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk
> > > (spinning or otherwise) on the machine.
> > > The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
> > > and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
> > > However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to
> > > 'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].
> > > 
> > 
> > Interesting that Dell is making a distinction here between SATA and PCIe 
> > mass
> > storage, but calling its RAID foolishness "SATA Operation - RAID On".
> > Does this imply maybe that the SSD connected via PCIe and not via the SATA
> > wiring/controller, is exempt from the RAID interference?  I don't know.
> > 
> > It sure would be nice if that is what they mean though.
> > Maybe you can carefully test how this really works.
> > (Make the backup first though)
> > 
> > 
> 
> Is it even possible to RAID an SDD?
> 
With software RAID, you can combine all manner of storage devices into a
"managed device" even different physical types of storage.  What this built-in
factory RAID might be is unclear to me.  From the misbehavior of the system
regarding your sometimes attached external USB disk (with the attempted debian
install on it) it seems likely that the factory/BIOS RAID thing might be
interposing itself between disks as seen by running programs (like the debian
installer) and the actual hardware storage itself.

> But, as I think I mentioned earlier, I am very reluctant indeed to mess 
> around with Windows itself.
> I have backed up the user data, but I am not at all sure how to 
> re-install Windows itself.  If the machine failed I suspect I would take 
> it to a specialist with a copy of the user data.

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 08/02/2021 22:44, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:26 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
[...]

I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk
(spinning or otherwise) on the machine.
The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to
'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].


Interesting that Dell is making a distinction here between SATA and PCIe mass
storage, but calling its RAID foolishness "SATA Operation - RAID On".
Does this imply maybe that the SSD connected via PCIe and not via the SATA
wiring/controller, is exempt from the RAID interference?  I don't know.

It sure would be nice if that is what they mean though.
Maybe you can carefully test how this really works.
(Make the backup first though)



Is it even possible to RAID an SDD?

But, as I think I mentioned earlier, I am very reluctant indeed to mess 
around with Windows itself.
I have backed up the user data, but I am not at all sure how to 
re-install Windows itself.  If the machine failed I suspect I would take 
it to a specialist with a copy of the user data.


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:26 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
[...]
> I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk 
> (spinning or otherwise) on the machine.
> The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
> and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
> However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to 
> 'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].
> 
Interesting that Dell is making a distinction here between SATA and PCIe mass
storage, but calling its RAID foolishness "SATA Operation - RAID On".
Does this imply maybe that the SSD connected via PCIe and not via the SATA
wiring/controller, is exempt from the RAID interference?  I don't know.

It sure would be nice if that is what they mean though.  
Maybe you can carefully test how this really works.
(Make the backup first though)

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 22:26 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> 
> On 08/02/2021 21:57, Lou Poppler wrote:
> > On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 20:47 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 08/02/2021 20:33, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> > > > Bernard McNeill  (2021-02-08):
> > > > > It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change 
> > > > > Linux
> > > > > will not find SSD'.
> > > > > Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my
> > > > > copy of this model - so not relevant ?
> > > > 
> > > > Used for almost anything really, HDD, SSD, USB sticks, etc.
> > > > 
> > > > > In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot -
> > > > > is this now obsolete?
> > > > 
> > > > Likely. We've started supporting SB with Debian 10 (buster).
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > If I change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, do I mess up whatever is
> > > currently on the SSD?
> > > 
> > > Best regards
> > > 
> > 
> > See 
> > https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/Pros-Cons-AHCI-vs-Raid-On-XPS13-9300-NVMe/td-p/7636984
> > 
> > You have Windows on a regular, spinning hard disk in the machine, and you 
> > also have an
> > unused SSD -- is this correct?  Or maybe they are already RAIDed together 
> > by the factory?
> > 
> > I thing especially if you are now introducing a third external disk to the 
> > mix, you probably
> > do not want this factory RAID thing, but I don't know how safe it is to 
> > turn it off if you
> > already have two mass-storage devices controlled by the thing.
> > 
> 
> + You have Windows on a regular, spinning hard disk in the machine, and 
> + you also have an
> + unused SSD -- is this correct?  Or maybe they are already RAIDed
> + together by the factory?
> I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk 
> (spinning or otherwise) on the machine.
> The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
> and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
> However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to 
> 'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].
> 
> Best regards

That Dell Community webpage also says there is a *chance* that you can change
the BIOS option, and get into Windows "safe mode" and recover.  
I strongly suggest making a backup now, of anything in the windows install that
you do not want to lose.

[ also note, I made a couple small modernizing edits to 
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9360  ]

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 08/02/2021 22:08, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 14:57 -0700, Lou Poppler wrote:


See 
https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/Pros-Cons-AHCI-vs-Raid-On-XPS13-9300-NVMe/td-p/7636984


Reading more on that page looks like you should not change the setting unless
you are prepared to re-install your Windows; but also looks like you cannot
install linux beside your Windows unless you _DO_ change the setting.
Can you backup and then restore your existing windows setup?

I have saved the Win-10 user data, but regard destroying and recreating 
Windows as something only to be attempted in the event of a machine 
failure, not simply my wish to experiment with Linux.
That's why I bought an external HDD - idea was Linux goes on that, not 
touching Win-10 or the Win-10 user data on the SDD.


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 08/02/2021 21:57, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 20:47 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:


On 08/02/2021 20:33, Cyril Brulebois wrote:

Bernard McNeill  (2021-02-08):

It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change Linux
will not find SSD'.
Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my
copy of this model - so not relevant ?


Used for almost anything really, HDD, SSD, USB sticks, etc.


In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot -
is this now obsolete?


Likely. We've started supporting SB with Debian 10 (buster).


Cheers,



If I change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, do I mess up whatever is
currently on the SSD?

Best regards


See 
https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/Pros-Cons-AHCI-vs-Raid-On-XPS13-9300-NVMe/td-p/7636984

You have Windows on a regular, spinning hard disk in the machine, and you also 
have an
unused SSD -- is this correct?  Or maybe they are already RAIDed together by 
the factory?

I thing especially if you are now introducing a third external disk to the mix, 
you probably
do not want this factory RAID thing, but I don't know how safe it is to turn it 
off if you
already have two mass-storage devices controlled by the thing.

+ You have Windows on a regular, spinning hard disk in the machine, and 
+ you also have an

+ unused SSD -- is this correct?  Or maybe they are already RAIDed
+ together by the factory?
I have one SSD (which has Win-10 on it), there is no other disk 
(spinning or otherwise) on the machine.

The BIOS System Information says 'M.2. SATA =(none)'
and 'M.2. PCIe SSD-0=87NB51ASK5HS'.
However: Under BIOS System Configuration, 'SATA Operation' is set to 
'RAID On', [other options are 'Disabled' and 'AHCI' ].


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 14:57 -0700, Lou Poppler wrote:
> 
> See 
> https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/Pros-Cons-AHCI-vs-Raid-On-XPS13-9300-NVMe/td-p/7636984
> 
Reading more on that page looks like you should not change the setting unless
you are prepared to re-install your Windows; but also looks like you cannot
install linux beside your Windows unless you _DO_ change the setting.  
Can you backup and then restore your existing windows setup?

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 20:47 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> 
> On 08/02/2021 20:33, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> > Bernard McNeill  (2021-02-08):
> > > It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change 
> > > Linux
> > > will not find SSD'.
> > > Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my
> > >copy of this model - so not relevant ?
> > 
> > Used for almost anything really, HDD, SSD, USB sticks, etc.
> > 
> > > In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot -
> > > is this now obsolete?
> > 
> > Likely. We've started supporting SB with Debian 10 (buster).
> > 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> 
> If I change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, do I mess up whatever is 
> currently on the SSD?
> 
> Best regards
> 
See 
https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/Pros-Cons-AHCI-vs-Raid-On-XPS13-9300-NVMe/td-p/7636984

You have Windows on a regular, spinning hard disk in the machine, and you also 
have an
unused SSD -- is this correct?  Or maybe they are already RAIDed together by 
the factory?

I thing especially if you are now introducing a third external disk to the mix, 
you probably
do not want this factory RAID thing, but I don't know how safe it is to turn it 
off if you
already have two mass-storage devices controlled by the thing.

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 20:07 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
[...]
> I was planning the re-install, and came across this page:
> https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9360
> 
> It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change 
> Linux will not find SSD'.
> Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my 
> copy of this model - so not relevant ?
> 2. I don't care if Linux just 'finds' the SSD.
>But I care very greatly about Linux _disturbing_ the 
> contents of the SSD - I consider this Win-10's domain.
>Do I need to worry about this?

SATA is the wiring/controller for the internal storage, spinning or SSD.
I don't see why you should change it.  I am suspicious of the idea of some kind
of Dell RAID settings though.  Are you using or planing to use a RAID setup?

> In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot - 
> is this now obsolete?

Yes, you can leave Secure Boot on, modern debian versions are fine with that.

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 08/02/2021 20:33, Cyril Brulebois wrote:

Bernard McNeill  (2021-02-08):

It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change Linux
will not find SSD'.
Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my
   copy of this model - so not relevant ?


Used for almost anything really, HDD, SSD, USB sticks, etc.


In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot -
is this now obsolete?


Likely. We've started supporting SB with Debian 10 (buster).


Cheers,

If I change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, do I mess up whatever is 
currently on the SSD?


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Cyril Brulebois]

Bernard McNeill  (2021-02-08):
> It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change Linux
> will not find SSD'.
> Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my
>   copy of this model - so not relevant ?

Used for almost anything really, HDD, SSD, USB sticks, etc.

> In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot -
> is this now obsolete?

Likely. We've started supporting SB with Debian 10 (buster).


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 08/02/2021 17:03, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 11:46 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:


On 07/02/2021 22:26, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Sun, 2021-02-07 at 15:14 -0700, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Sun, 2021-02-07 at 20:44 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:


[...]

Trial-1. Reboot, no attempt to use F12.
  Boots directly into Windows.



[...]

See install manual https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual

Also worth asking:
. Is the machine booting in BIOS mode or UEFI mode, with or without
   "Secure Boot"?  Was the machine booting in that same mode during your
   debian installation?
. Are the "disks" involved both/all partitioned in the same schema --
i.e.  GPT partitions or MBR partitions?


I forgot when writing the above, but another important question is whether you
have already disabled the Windows Fast Startup option in Windows 10.  This is
mandatory, and things will work differently depending on whether it is disabled
already or not. See section 3.6.4 of the install manual.



Fast startup was _not_ disabled - I thought (from install manual) only
applicable to Win-8, and this machine Win-10.
It is disabled now.


Good.  This is updated in the new version of the install manual, thanks to
Holger Wansing.
(see https://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/ch03s06.en.html )


In the same spirit, found a 'Fastboot' option in BIOS: It was set to
'Minimal', it is now set to 'Thorough'.

UEFI mode, Secure Boot always set.

Nothing much has changed, except that reboot now offers opportunity to
skip a disk check (not taken).

I am nervous that not disabling 'Fast startup' might have messed up
process from beginning - I may repeat entire installation.


Yes worth a re-do.  Pay attention to section 6.3.7 of the install manual, about
getting the grub boot loader installed (onto your removable disk).


+++  Are the "disks" involved both/all partitioned in the same schema --
+++  i.e.  GPT partitions or MBR partitions?
I have partitioned nothing on the laptop's SSD (and don't really want to
- the idea of the external USB HDD for Debian was to make that drive a
sandbox - no possible corruption of other work under Win-10).
The external USB HDD was partitioned by the debian_installer (Guided
total disk).


This should be OK.  You said above UEFI/Secure-boot always set, which implies
that all the disks should be setup as GPT style.


FWIW I sense that in some way the 'Debian' option in the boot list
points to Win-10 on the SSD, rather than the Debian on the external HDD.
If it pointed to rubbish surely the machine would simply hang.

Best regards





I was planning the re-install, and came across this page:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9360

It says to 'Change the SATA from RAID On to AHCI, without this change 
Linux will not find SSD'.
Questions: 1. To me, SATA is a reference to HDD, no internal HDD on my 
copy of this model - so not relevant ?

   2. I don't care if Linux just 'finds' the SSD.
  But I care very greatly about Linux _disturbing_ the 
contents of the SSD - I consider this Win-10's domain.

  Do I need to worry about this?

In passing, I note the same link shows a need to disable Secure Boot - 
is this now obsolete?


Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Mon, 2021-02-08 at 11:46 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> 
> On 07/02/2021 22:26, Lou Poppler wrote:
> > On Sun, 2021-02-07 at 15:14 -0700, Lou Poppler wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2021-02-07 at 20:44 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > > > Trial-1. Reboot, no attempt to use F12.
> > > >  Boots directly into Windows.
> > > > 
> > 
> > [...]
> > > See install manual https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
> > > 
> > > Also worth asking:
> > > . Is the machine booting in BIOS mode or UEFI mode, with or without
> > >   "Secure Boot"?  Was the machine booting in that same mode during your
> > >   debian installation?
> > > . Are the "disks" involved both/all partitioned in the same schema --
> > >i.e.  GPT partitions or MBR partitions?
> > 
> > I forgot when writing the above, but another important question is whether 
> > you
> > have already disabled the Windows Fast Startup option in Windows 10.  This 
> > is
> > mandatory, and things will work differently depending on whether it is 
> > disabled
> > already or not. See section 3.6.4 of the install manual.
> > 
> 
> Fast startup was _not_ disabled - I thought (from install manual) only 
> applicable to Win-8, and this machine Win-10.
> It is disabled now.

Good.  This is updated in the new version of the install manual, thanks to
Holger Wansing.
(see https://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/ch03s06.en.html )

> In the same spirit, found a 'Fastboot' option in BIOS: It was set to 
> 'Minimal', it is now set to 'Thorough'.
> 
> UEFI mode, Secure Boot always set.
> 
> Nothing much has changed, except that reboot now offers opportunity to 
> skip a disk check (not taken).
> 
> I am nervous that not disabling 'Fast startup' might have messed up 
> process from beginning - I may repeat entire installation.

Yes worth a re-do.  Pay attention to section 6.3.7 of the install manual, about
getting the grub boot loader installed (onto your removable disk).

> +++  Are the "disks" involved both/all partitioned in the same schema --
> +++  i.e.  GPT partitions or MBR partitions?
> I have partitioned nothing on the laptop's SSD (and don't really want to 
> - the idea of the external USB HDD for Debian was to make that drive a 
> sandbox - no possible corruption of other work under Win-10).
> The external USB HDD was partitioned by the debian_installer (Guided 
> total disk).

This should be OK.  You said above UEFI/Secure-boot always set, which implies
that all the disks should be setup as GPT style.
> 
> FWIW I sense that in some way the 'Debian' option in the boot list 
> points to Win-10 on the SSD, rather than the Debian on the external HDD.
> If it pointed to rubbish surely the machine would simply hang.
> 
> Best regards
> 

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 07/02/2021 22:26, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Sun, 2021-02-07 at 15:14 -0700, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Sun, 2021-02-07 at 20:44 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:

[...]

Trial-1. Reboot, no attempt to use F12.
 Boots directly into Windows.


[...]

See install manual https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual

Also worth asking:
. Is the machine booting in BIOS mode or UEFI mode, with or without
  "Secure Boot"?  Was the machine booting in that same mode during your
  debian installation?
. Are the "disks" involved both/all partitioned in the same schema --
   i.e.  GPT partitions or MBR partitions?


I forgot when writing the above, but another important question is whether you
have already disabled the Windows Fast Startup option in Windows 10.  This is
mandatory, and things will work differently depending on whether it is disabled
already or not. See section 3.6.4 of the install manual.

Fast startup was _not_ disabled - I thought (from install manual) only 
applicable to Win-8, and this machine Win-10.

It is disabled now.

In the same spirit, found a 'Fastboot' option in BIOS: It was set to 
'Minimal', it is now set to 'Thorough'.


UEFI mode, Secure Boot always set.

Nothing much has changed, except that reboot now offers opportunity to 
skip a disk check (not taken).


I am nervous that not disabling 'Fast startup' might have messed up 
process from beginning - I may repeat entire installation.


+++  Are the "disks" involved both/all partitioned in the same schema --
+++  i.e.  GPT partitions or MBR partitions?
I have partitioned nothing on the laptop's SSD (and don't really want to 
- the idea of the external USB HDD for Debian was to make that drive a 
sandbox - no possible corruption of other work under Win-10).
The external USB HDD was partitioned by the debian_installer (Guided 
total disk).


FWIW I sense that in some way the 'Debian' option in the boot list 
points to Win-10 on the SSD, rather than the Debian on the external HDD.

If it pointed to rubbish surely the machine would simply hang.

Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

On 06/02/2021 16:42, Lou Poppler wrote:

On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 20:05 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:

This machine does not have either CD or DVD drive. Does have internal SSD.
This machine normally runs Windows-10.
Objective is to have Debian on external HDD (Toshiba), connected to
laptop via USB3.

Events:
Under Windows, downloaded iso to SSD.
Win32diskimage from SSD to HDD.
Restarted, F12, picked out HDD from bootlist, booted, got into Debian
installer.
Does a few steps (language etc).
Gets stuck at 'No common CD-ROM drive was detected'.

Ideas?


I suggest writing the installer iso to a USB stick, and booting from that to
install.  Win32diskimager should be fine for that purpose.
If you still have difficulty, please also say exactly which iso image.
Good luck.


Thank you for this.
Followed your suggestion using
debian-10.6.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso

The whole installation seemed to run to completion, but:
1. When laptop rebooted with external HDD unplugged (indeed nothing in 
either USB socket) Windows-10 booted up (expected behaviour).


2. When laptop rebooted with external HDD plugged in, and F12 pressed 
repeatedly, went into one-time boot showing both 'Debian' and 'Windows 
Boot Manager' (expected behaviour).
   Unexpected behaviour was that, on taking 'Debian' option, screen 
showed (in tiny letters)

   'Press F1 key to retry boot.
Press F2 key to reboot into setup.
Press F5 key to run onboard diagnostics.'
   Expected behaviour was to boot into Debian.

Best regards

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Lou Poppler]

On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 20:05 +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> This machine does not have either CD or DVD drive. Does have internal SSD.
> This machine normally runs Windows-10.
> Objective is to have Debian on external HDD (Toshiba), connected to 
> laptop via USB3.
> 
> Events:
> Under Windows, downloaded iso to SSD.
> Win32diskimage from SSD to HDD.
> Restarted, F12, picked out HDD from bootlist, booted, got into Debian 
> installer.
> Does a few steps (language etc).
> Gets stuck at 'No common CD-ROM drive was detected'.
> 
> Ideas?

I suggest writing the installer iso to a USB stick, and booting from that to
install.  Win32diskimager should be fine for that purpose.
If you still have difficulty, please also say exactly which iso image.
Good luck.

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Bernard McNeill  wrote:
> This machine does not have either CD or DVD drive. Does have internal SSD.
> This machine normally runs Windows-10.
> Objective is to have Debian on external HDD (Toshiba), connected to 
> laptop via USB3.
> 
> Events:
> Under Windows, downloaded iso to SSD.
> Win32diskimage from SSD to HDD.
> Restarted, F12, picked out HDD from bootlist, booted, got into Debian 
> installer.
> Does a few steps (language etc).
> Gets stuck at 'No common CD-ROM drive was detected'.

Why not use an USB stick as installation media, as documented here:
https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb


Holger


-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Geert Stappers]

On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 10:32:44PM +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 08:05:22PM +, Bernard McNeill wrote:
> > This machine does not have either CD or DVD drive. Does have internal SSD.
> > This machine normally runs Windows-10.
> > Objective is to have Debian on external HDD (Toshiba), connected to laptop
> > via USB3.
> >
> > Events:
> > Under Windows, downloaded iso to SSD.
> > Win32diskimage from SSD to HDD.
> > Restarted, F12, picked out HDD from bootlist, booted, got into Debian
> > installer.
> > Does a few steps (language etc).
> > Gets stuck at 'No common CD-ROM drive was detected'.
> >
> > Ideas?
> >
>
> Is there any chance this is related to Bug #981666?
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=981666
> "cdrom-detect: Preseeding cdrom-detect/load_media and a high-enough priority 
> lead to failure"

Nope, that issue is about preseeding.



Please pursuit your objective, you will be rewarded with usefull knowledge.


Use https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apas04.en.html
as guidance for further steps.


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse

Re: Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

Is there any chance this is related to Bug #981666?

Best regards

Problem installing Debian on Dell XPS 13 9360 laptop

[Bernard McNeill]

This machine does not have either CD or DVD drive. Does have internal SSD.
This machine normally runs Windows-10.
Objective is to have Debian on external HDD (Toshiba), connected to 
laptop via USB3.


Events:
Under Windows, downloaded iso to SSD.
Win32diskimage from SSD to HDD.
Restarted, F12, picked out HDD from bootlist, booted, got into Debian 
installer.

Does a few steps (language etc).
Gets stuck at 'No common CD-ROM drive was detected'.

Ideas?

Best regards