Re: Booting to floppy
Andrew Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > We only care when you do -- and if bugs are filed, then no one cares. > > Um, say what? Did you mean to say 'if no bugs are filed, then no > one cares.'? Yah, oops. I don't mind your brainstorming about a much better installation system, but that involves Joey Hess, not me. I am working only on the end-of-life boot-floppies. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > Andrew Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > The answer is another question, how wide spread do we want the use > > of Debian to be? In FreeBSD, it works quite well, and there is no > > reason it can't work this way on Debian: you enter your network > > settings, it goes off and tries to get the packages, it fails to > > connect, and puts you back at the screen where you enter your > > network settings, allowing you to change them and try again. Not > > that difficult, is it? Perhaps for sid? > > I suggest you take a deep look at base-config -- critique what it's > doing wrong -- and then file bugs. I'm so misunderstood! Did I say it was doing anything wrong? Heck no! I was just pontificating. You know, casting strange and foreign ideas on the fertile waters of debian developer minds? The FreeBSD install is one of the best I've seen as far as it does a very good job from one perspective: you can download and burn one floppy, and that is good enough to boot off of, and if you can set up your network, that's all you need for the install, and that includes a ppp install. So it is a place where we can get ideas, like how did they do the ppp install and can we learn anything from that? Debian is a much different and more difficult beast and being the same as FreeBSD is not the goal, I just bring it up as one possible source of ideas on things that CAN be done. > We only care when you do -- and if bugs are filed, then no one cares. Um, say what? Did you mean to say 'if no bugs are filed, then no one cares.'? a -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Andrew Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The answer is another question, how wide spread do we want the use > of Debian to be? In FreeBSD, it works quite well, and there is no > reason it can't work this way on Debian: you enter your network > settings, it goes off and tries to get the packages, it fails to > connect, and puts you back at the screen where you enter your > network settings, allowing you to change them and try again. Not > that difficult, is it? Perhaps for sid? I suggest you take a deep look at base-config -- critique what it's doing wrong -- and then file bugs. We only care when you do -- and if bugs are filed, then no one cares. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Ethan Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > is debian-installer going to do this the same way? copying the kernel > from the `rescue' disk if thats what it still ends be up being called. I doubt it -- they use .udebs for this kinda stuff I bet. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:53:35AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Sven LUTHER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I have installed (on i386) potato (r0 i think) from CD, and this is exactly > > how it works. it gets the linux file and the modules.tar.gz to get the > > modules. > > No, that's wishful thinking. See choose_medium.c: > > char kernel_image_path[PATH_MAX+1] = "images-1.44/rescue.bin"; > > It really is not going to be all that hard to fix this for Woody -- > the logic is simple. If we're installing the kernel from floppies, > use the rescue disk; otherwise, use the vmlinuz file (or whatever) > appropriate for your subarch or flavor. Yes, that would be really nice, ... Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Sven LUTHER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have installed (on i386) potato (r0 i think) from CD, and this is exactly > how it works. it gets the linux file and the modules.tar.gz to get the > modules. No, that's wishful thinking. See choose_medium.c: char kernel_image_path[PATH_MAX+1] = "images-1.44/rescue.bin"; It really is not going to be all that hard to fix this for Woody -- the logic is simple. If we're installing the kernel from floppies, use the rescue disk; otherwise, use the vmlinuz file (or whatever) appropriate for your subarch or flavor. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:52:31PM -0400, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote: > On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:40:07AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > Michael Schmitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of > > > architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? > > > > Sure. > > > > Only on architecture, PowerPC, is in bad enough shape to require one > > image for actual booting (when possible at all) and other one to > > supply the kernel to dbootstrap. > > > > Wouldn't it be easier to just get the kernel directly from one of the > > 'linux' files lying around, in the case that the user is installing by > > a method other than floppies? This might be an easy, general fix we > > can do for all arches. > > Definitely! But the only times we've tried to address this are when I > need to get potato b-f's out, and I'm not about to try that in potato. Err, ... I have installed (on i386) potato (r0 i think) from CD, and this is exactly how it works. it gets the linux file and the modules.tar.gz to get the modules. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Adam C Powell IV wrote: > > Ethan Benson wrote: > > > well frankly you need to know the fscking network numbers before going > > to setup a computer on the network, if you don't know what your > > network numbers are that can hardly be blamed on debian. dammit Jim > > im an installer not a psychic! > > :-) > > > and you can redo the `setup the network' step as many times as you > > want before rebooting the box, and console 2 is there so you can do a > > quick test (i think ping is there). > > But apt starts after the reboot, so you can't just redo that step when apt > fails. And you have to know about console 2, and remember that it's > sometimes good to check things before rebooting... > > Okay, a workaround: insert a "Test the network configuration" step, you give > it an address to ping and it gives back x/10 successes (or something like > that). Problem solved? > > The real question of course is: how easy should the install process be? The answer is another question, how wide spread do we want the use of Debian to be? In FreeBSD, it works quite well, and there is no reason it can't work this way on Debian: you enter your network settings, it goes off and tries to get the packages, it fails to connect, and puts you back at the screen where you enter your network settings, allowing you to change them and try again. Not that difficult, is it? Perhaps for sid? a -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:40:07AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Michael Schmitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of > > architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? > > Sure. > > Only on architecture, PowerPC, is in bad enough shape to require one > image for actual booting (when possible at all) and other one to > supply the kernel to dbootstrap. > > Wouldn't it be easier to just get the kernel directly from one of the > 'linux' files lying around, in the case that the user is installing by > a method other than floppies? This might be an easy, general fix we > can do for all arches. Definitely! But the only times we've tried to address this are when I need to get potato b-f's out, and I'm not about to try that in potato. -- Daniel Jacobowitz Debian GNU/Linux Developer Monta Vista Software Debian Security Team "I am croutons!" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:09:53PM -0800, Ethan Benson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:41:28PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > > i don't think its possible to make a generic rescue image that will > > > boot all the various powerpcs, but isn't there several different > > > versions of it anyway for the different powerpc sub-archs? > > > > Seems like a moot point since we don't have any people working on > > PowerPC boot-floppies ? > > sure we do! we have drow, and um... uh.. > > > Shame... > > yes, i would but i just don't have the requisite skills. > > > It's a possibility. Theoretically cleaner, if, as Sven points out, > > we can address the proper file (perhaps even double check it's the > > right kernel somehow). > > is debian-installer going to do this the same way? copying the kernel > from the `rescue' disk if thats what it still ends be up being called. But i had problems (a long time ago, so it may have changed) with it when i was doing boot-floppies work for apus. I don't know why, but it worked fine when done by hand when running debian normally, but wasn't able to mount the rescue disk when from dbootstrap. I never got beind the problem. Also, note that when doing a CD install, dbootstrap uses the kernel it found on the Cd and the modules.tgz file, not the rescue disk. On apus this make more sense, as we don't really use floppies, just files on the harddisk. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:41:28PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > i don't think its possible to make a generic rescue image that will > > boot all the various powerpcs, but isn't there several different > > versions of it anyway for the different powerpc sub-archs? > > Seems like a moot point since we don't have any people working on > PowerPC boot-floppies ? sure we do! we have drow, and um... uh.. > Shame... yes, i would but i just don't have the requisite skills. > It's a possibility. Theoretically cleaner, if, as Sven points out, > we can address the proper file (perhaps even double check it's the > right kernel somehow). is debian-installer going to do this the same way? copying the kernel from the `rescue' disk if thats what it still ends be up being called. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
Ethan Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > i don't think it even needs to be that way either. you can do one of > two things: > > make the rescue disk use msdos filesystem instead of ext2, and put a > .coff format kernel on it. this would be bootable with the > OpenFirmware command: > > boot fd:,linux > > or something similar (the device name may vary) > > the disadvantage to this is you must enter OF somehow, this usually > requires a serial terminal. > > the other option is make the rescue image use hfs filesystem, there is > nothing about miboot that requires a layout any different then the > regular rescue image has (well if there is it could be fixed except > for needing macos to compile miboot...). miboot would be analogous to > syslinux in this case. dbootstrap would have to be tought how to > mount hfs rescue images in addition to msdos and ext2, but that > shoudn't be that difficult. > > i don't think its possible to make a generic rescue image that will > boot all the various powerpcs, but isn't there several different > versions of it anyway for the different powerpc sub-archs? Seems like a moot point since we don't have any people working on PowerPC boot-floppies ? Shame... > > Wouldn't it be easier to just get the kernel directly from one of the > > 'linux' files lying around, in the case that the user is installing by > > a method other than floppies? This might be an easy, general fix we > > can do for all arches. > > if all thats being grabbed from rescue.bin that makes sense. It's a possibility. Theoretically cleaner, if, as Sven points out, we can address the proper file (perhaps even double check it's the right kernel somehow). -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Sven LUTHER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > But i was told a long time ago this was not ok, because you have to make sure > that the kernel used is the same as the modules used. > > Is this no mor ethe case ? No, it's the case, but you can grab the right kernel for your flavor and subarchitecture easily enough. I don't know,. maybe m68k or powerpc boot-floppies layout, but hopefully the file shoudl be always findable in /[flavor-or-subarch/>linux . -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:40:07AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Michael Schmitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of > > architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? > > Sure. > > Only on architecture, PowerPC, is in bad enough shape to require one > image for actual booting (when possible at all) and other one to > supply the kernel to dbootstrap. > > Wouldn't it be easier to just get the kernel directly from one of the > 'linux' files lying around, in the case that the user is installing by > a method other than floppies? This might be an easy, general fix we > can do for all arches. Yes, good idea, ... But i was told a long time ago this was not ok, because you have to make sure that the kernel used is the same as the modules used. Is this no mor ethe case ? Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:40:07AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Michael Schmitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of > > architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? > > Sure. > > Only on architecture, PowerPC, is in bad enough shape to require one > image for actual booting (when possible at all) and other one to > supply the kernel to dbootstrap. i don't think it even needs to be that way either. you can do one of two things: make the rescue disk use msdos filesystem instead of ext2, and put a .coff format kernel on it. this would be bootable with the OpenFirmware command: boot fd:,linux or something similar (the device name may vary) the disadvantage to this is you must enter OF somehow, this usually requires a serial terminal. the other option is make the rescue image use hfs filesystem, there is nothing about miboot that requires a layout any different then the regular rescue image has (well if there is it could be fixed except for needing macos to compile miboot...). miboot would be analogous to syslinux in this case. dbootstrap would have to be tought how to mount hfs rescue images in addition to msdos and ext2, but that shoudn't be that difficult. i don't think its possible to make a generic rescue image that will boot all the various powerpcs, but isn't there several different versions of it anyway for the different powerpc sub-archs? > Wouldn't it be easier to just get the kernel directly from one of the > 'linux' files lying around, in the case that the user is installing by > a method other than floppies? This might be an easy, general fix we > can do for all arches. if all thats being grabbed from rescue.bin that makes sense. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
Andrew Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > What I was thinking was that a more sophisticated method for > generating the docs could be utilized. Something that would pull > arch specific sections from the right places and insert them into > the doc just before placing that doc at its intended destination, > like on the CD for a particular arch or in the right place on the > web site. Such facilities are already present in SGML. No reason to overcomplicate the doc build process. In fact, it's too complicated already. Hmm. i should fix that a little.. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Michael Schmitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of > architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? Sure. Only on architecture, PowerPC, is in bad enough shape to require one image for actual booting (when possible at all) and other one to supply the kernel to dbootstrap. Wouldn't it be easier to just get the kernel directly from one of the 'linux' files lying around, in the case that the user is installing by a method other than floppies? This might be an easy, general fix we can do for all arches. > Alpha might work. None of the m68k machines will boot from it if you > happened to kill the machine's old OS. Well, you would now about that more than I... > Call it 'kernel floppy image' and emphasize that there's no need to copy > it to a floppy disk on those architecures that can't boot from floppy, and > maybe people will understand. That's not a bad name for it... It also has a boot loader, and, on some arches, some documentation and stuff. > That one-size-fits-all install doc is truely evil, even with all the > arch-specific customizations. Some things about the documentation is indeed evil, but I still think it was the right idea to do it that way. I would love it if there a "quick start" mode -- that could be added to the front of the documentation easily. And you can cross-link into the full documentation. > True, once you're booted into the installer it works the same for > all architectures. The steps leading up to that are just too > different. Some of the steps are rather different, but SGML has facilities for blocking off areas as one arch only. It's pretty easy to just chop around whole sections (although you have to make sure that any references to those sections are conditionalized out as well). > Alternatives? We used to have a separate quick reference style install > guide for installation on Amiga, Atari, Mac and perhaps VME on m68k. That > was considered a bad idea by the boot-floppies team, and we tried to fold > the specific 'what files to get, how to boot' instructions into the > generic docs. Confusion ensued. Well, I don't think this necessarily reflects on the documentation but rather on the lack of strong documenters, who know what they are doing with document maintenance issues, putting out leadership and getting things done. I mean, you could easily have a completely gut install-methods.sgml and have install-methods-powerpc.sgml (if that's really the right thing to do, if there is really so little commonality), so long as they both have sections with the same IDs in them. I guess my conclusions are a bit different. Some things, such as laying out files on a TFTP server, for instance, are remarkably identical across architectures, and decided not i386-centric. Yet that is barely documented at all. My conclusion is not that the 'one size fits all' is to blame, because if that was true, we'd see the more common stuff documented better and the wierd arch stuff not documented well. In fact, what we have is very limited involvement by porter/documenters. I pretty much conclude there is no such thing as a porter/documenter. > I now think having separate documents that detail the initial steps > (choice of install method, partitioning, reinstalling your OS, what > install files to get, how to unpack them, how to boot the installer, > how to boot into the installed system finally) would be the easiest > way to solve the problem. Fine, but as I said above, you can do all that in the current documentation just as easily (easier?) that doing it from scratch. > For the remaining tasks, the generic install doc is the better guide > indeed. My statement above didn't mean I'd like to replace the generic > docs with per-arch ones. Just separate out the specific things to be more > flexible in structuring the description. I don't disagree that some structural changes would have to be made to the main documentation to facilitate this. Better layout and break-up of files to make it clear for porters with not much time where to edit stuff, focusing on the points of divergance. My point is that this can be done in the main SGML file, without spinning off a bunch of little ASCII files. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
No, no, yes, and ... no. I have one with a 2.2.17 kernel on it which isn't good for installations of 2.2r2 because they use the 2.2.18 kernel, so you get these problems with modules but it _is_ good for a rescue floppy! Just kidding, I don't want to start the rescue floppy thing again; you still have to shove in the root floppy and go one or two steps into the install before you can switch to virtual console #2 and get a shell, but it's _like_ a rescue floppy. And that would be located at http://www.netfall.com/powerpc/boot-floppy-oldworld.img The link below points to the one that *doesn't* work due to the keyboard/adb problem. a David Whedon wrote: > > Is this what you are looking for? > > >http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/potato/main/disks-powerpc/current/powermac/images-1.44/boot-floppy-hfs.img > > David > > Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:13:48PM +0100 wrote: > > > > Does anybody have an idea where to get the 'boot-floppy-hfs.img' from > > the potato 2.2r0 release - I believe I will need them to have a chance > > to install linux on a naked PowerMac (I have deleted my Mac-OS partitions > > when first trying to install Linux ...). > > > > -jr > > -- > > Johannes Reisinger,Vienna,Austria mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Is this what you are looking for? http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/potato/main/disks-powerpc/current/powermac/images-1.44/boot-floppy-hfs.img David Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:13:48PM +0100 wrote: > > Does anybody have an idea where to get the 'boot-floppy-hfs.img' from > the potato 2.2r0 release - I believe I will need them to have a chance > to install linux on a naked PowerMac (I have deleted my Mac-OS partitions > when first trying to install Linux ...). > > -jr > -- > Johannes Reisinger,Vienna,Austria mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Does anybody have an idea where to get the 'boot-floppy-hfs.img' from the potato 2.2r0 release - I believe I will need them to have a chance to install linux on a naked PowerMac (I have deleted my Mac-OS partitions when first trying to install Linux ...). -jr -- Johannes Reisinger,Vienna,Austria mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boot stage WAS Re: Booting to floppy
At 16:40 +0100 3/4/01, Ethan Benson wrote: >On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:13:10PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: >> >> "Boot-floppies" isn't the best name for this software. >> > >the replacment for the current `boot-floppies' is called >debian-installer. > Will this Mailing list move to debian-testing? Information from http://www.nl.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe : debian-testing This list finds problems with the next Debian release. This includes: trying the installation, trying the upgrade, and testing individual packages. Moderated: no Subscription: open Groet Geert Stappers - Hit the right key to continue -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boot stage WAS Re: Booting to floppy
On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:13:10PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > "Boot-floppies" isn't the best name for this software. > the replacment for the current `boot-floppies' is called debian-installer. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:29:06AM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that in fact the rescue floppy is > bootable on any arch that can boot a CD. Because the bootable part > of the CD is really just the rescue floppy image. So technically uh no, only on x86 or any arch that uses the x86 kludge for bootable CDs. > what prevents this from booting on new world macs is that they don't > have floppy drives. But a very slightly modified rescue floppy > image is the bootable part of the CD. It even says thanks for > booting the rescue floppy or somesuch when you boot the CD. Or last > time I actually read what it says, it did. no, newworld powermacs cannot boot the rescue.bin image regardless of how its accessed. Apple openfirmware does not use the x86 bootable CD methods. newworld CDs are simply hybrid HFS/ISO9660 filesystems with yaboot and a small forth script in a directory marked `blessed' in the HFS part. OpenFirmware sees the CD as a HFS filesystem, looks for a directory marked blessed, and checks if there is a file with the HFS type: tbxi, it then checks if its a forth bootscript and not a binary and if so it runs it. that script simply tells OF to boot yaboot from the same place, and yaboot loads a kernel from the CD too, in the same directory. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Boot stage WAS Re: Booting to floppy
At 21:34 +0100 3/3/01, Michael Schmitz wrote: >> > syslinux actually. and it can take a root= argument but if you don't >> > give a root= argument you get a root disk prompt. >> >> Yeah, that's what I said/meant. The boot-floppy-hfs.img floppy >> doesn't work the same way as the rescue floppy does for other >> architectures. My point is that for powerpc, the "rescue" function > >The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of >architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? Alpha might >work. None of the m68k machines will boot from it if you happened to kill >the machine's old OS. >Call it 'kernel floppy image' and emphasize that there's no need to copy >it to a floppy disk on those architecures that can't boot from floppy, and >maybe people will understand. > >> of the floppy with the word "rescue" in it's image file name is >> somewhat impotent. This can be somewhat confusing if you're not a >> graduate of the powerpc debian booting/installing gauntlet. Most >> especially because of the way the generic debian install docs refer >> to the rescue floppy for everything. > >That one-size-fits-all install doc is truely evil, even with all the >arch-specific customizations. True, once you're booted into the installer >it works the same for all architectures. The steps leading up to that are >just too different. > >Alternatives? We used to have a separate quick reference style install >guide for installation on Amiga, Atari, Mac and perhaps VME on m68k. That >was considered a bad idea by the boot-floppies team, and we tried to fold >the specific 'what files to get, how to boot' instructions into the >generic docs. Confusion ensued. I now think having separate documents that >detail the initial steps (choice of install method, partitioning, >reinstalling your OS, what install files to get, how to unpack them, how to >boot the installer, how to boot into the installed system finally) would be >the easiest way to solve the problem. For PPC, separate descriptions for >oldworld (miboot or BootX) and newworld (yaboot) as well as CHRP/PREP and >other flavors might make sense. > >For the remaining tasks, the generic install doc is the better guide >indeed. My statement above didn't mean I'd like to replace the generic >docs with per-arch ones. Just separate out the specific things to be more >flexible in structuring the description. > "Boot-floppies" isn't the best name for this software. Could we change the name into "boot-stage"? This name covers also issues as - CD ROMs, even Bissness Card size CD - Using another O.S. as "bootloader" - Network booting Another name that avoids the reference to floppies would also be fine. BTW this mailing list is called just "debian-boot" Groet Geert Stappers - Hit the right key to continue -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Michael Schmitz wrote: > > > > syslinux actually. and it can take a root= argument but if you don't > > > give a root= argument you get a root disk prompt. > > > > Yeah, that's what I said/meant. The boot-floppy-hfs.img floppy > > doesn't work the same way as the rescue floppy does for other > > architectures. My point is that for powerpc, the "rescue" function > > The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of > architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? Alpha might > work. None of the m68k machines will boot from it if you happened to kill > the machine's old OS. > Call it 'kernel floppy image' and emphasize that there's no need to copy > it to a floppy disk on those architecures that can't boot from floppy, and > maybe people will understand. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that in fact the rescue floppy is bootable on any arch that can boot a CD. Because the bootable part of the CD is really just the rescue floppy image. So technically what prevents this from booting on new world macs is that they don't have floppy drives. But a very slightly modified rescue floppy image is the bootable part of the CD. It even says thanks for booting the rescue floppy or somesuch when you boot the CD. Or last time I actually read what it says, it did. > > That one-size-fits-all install doc is truely evil, even with all the > arch-specific customizations. True, once you're booted into the installer > it works the same for all architectures. The steps leading up to that are > just too different. > > Alternatives? We used to have a separate quick reference style install > guide for installation on Amiga, Atari, Mac and perhaps VME on m68k. That > was considered a bad idea by the boot-floppies team, and we tried to fold > the specific 'what files to get, how to boot' instructions into the > generic docs. Confusion ensued. And hilarity. > I now think having separate documents that > detail the initial steps (choice of install method, partitioning, > reinstalling your OS, what install files to get, how to unpack them, how to > boot the installer, how to boot into the installed system finally) would be > the easiest way to solve the problem. For PPC, separate descriptions for > oldworld (miboot or BootX) and newworld (yaboot) as well as CHRP/PREP and > other flavors might make sense. What I was thinking was that a more sophisticated method for generating the docs could be utilized. Something that would pull arch specific sections from the right places and insert them into the doc just before placing that doc at its intended destination, like on the CD for a particular arch or in the right place on the web site. a -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:34:43PM +0100, Michael Schmitz wrote: > > For the remaining tasks, the generic install doc is the better guide > indeed. My statement above didn't mean I'd like to replace the generic > docs with per-arch ones. Just separate out the specific things to be more > flexible in structuring the description. except one step: 'Make Debian bootable from the hard disk' this step partially does its job on Oldworld powermacs, but not enough to make the disk bootable (i doubt this is possible reliably). on Newworld powermacs it does nothing of use, (its about as functional as /bin/true, it does nothing, successfully) [0]. other archs may or may not be in similar situations. there probably has to be a arch specific note about dealing with bootstrap slipped in somehow. [0] its completely possible to fix this on Newworld and make the disk bootable, reliably. i have written the tools to take care of this and they are already on the boot floppies, dbootstrap already knows pretty much everything it needs to pass on to these tools. the only requisite is the user must create an 800K type Apple_Bootstrap partition on the disk. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
> > syslinux actually. and it can take a root= argument but if you don't > > give a root= argument you get a root disk prompt. > > Yeah, that's what I said/meant. The boot-floppy-hfs.img floppy > doesn't work the same way as the rescue floppy does for other > architectures. My point is that for powerpc, the "rescue" function The 'rescue floppy' doesn't even work as this on a whole other bunch of architectures I bet. Can you boot from this floppy on sparc? Alpha might work. None of the m68k machines will boot from it if you happened to kill the machine's old OS. Call it 'kernel floppy image' and emphasize that there's no need to copy it to a floppy disk on those architecures that can't boot from floppy, and maybe people will understand. > of the floppy with the word "rescue" in it's image file name is > somewhat impotent. This can be somewhat confusing if you're not a > graduate of the powerpc debian booting/installing gauntlet. Most > especially because of the way the generic debian install docs refer > to the rescue floppy for everything. That one-size-fits-all install doc is truely evil, even with all the arch-specific customizations. True, once you're booted into the installer it works the same for all architectures. The steps leading up to that are just too different. Alternatives? We used to have a separate quick reference style install guide for installation on Amiga, Atari, Mac and perhaps VME on m68k. That was considered a bad idea by the boot-floppies team, and we tried to fold the specific 'what files to get, how to boot' instructions into the generic docs. Confusion ensued. I now think having separate documents that detail the initial steps (choice of install method, partitioning, reinstalling your OS, what install files to get, how to unpack them, how to boot the installer, how to boot into the installed system finally) would be the easiest way to solve the problem. For PPC, separate descriptions for oldworld (miboot or BootX) and newworld (yaboot) as well as CHRP/PREP and other flavors might make sense. For the remaining tasks, the generic install doc is the better guide indeed. My statement above didn't mean I'd like to replace the generic docs with per-arch ones. Just separate out the specific things to be more flexible in structuring the description. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:00:33PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > Somebody else pointed out the obvious, which is that I've not done a > floppy-only install for many years, so it is using the images/files > off the cdrom, so technically I am using those floppies. that is what i meant, you need rescue.bin either as a file on NFS or CD or partition. or you need it in floppy form. > Yeah, that's what I said/meant. The boot-floppy-hfs.img floppy > doesn't work the same way as the rescue floppy does for other > architectures. My point is that for powerpc, the "rescue" function > of the floppy with the word "rescue" in it's image file name is > somewhat impotent. This can be somewhat confusing if you're not a > graduate of the powerpc debian booting/installing gauntlet. Most > especially because of the way the generic debian install docs refer > to the rescue floppy for everything. unfortuantly this is unlikely to change unless someone writes a better oldworld bootloader. or makes quik work on floppies. (which would still be a pain since you have to get into OF to boot a OF based floppy, and getting into OF on some oldworlds is less then convenient) > Wha? It takes the same amount of time to build a cross gcc as a > native on my machine, namely about 30 minutes. Maybe you're > thinking of other things that might be required, like libraries and > such. That might take a while. ~:^) yes i mean all the requisite work to putting together a cross compiler. > Why does this sound way too easy? I'm gonna have to check that > out. The other thing is that theoretically, we should be able to > get the hardware to tell us that a floppy has been inserted. > Possibly only on mac hardware, but hey. Or we could just poll the > drive or something. Hmmm, lots of crazy ideas... i still would like to know what caused this to break in 2.2.18... -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
Ethan Benson wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 08:21:18PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > > > I've never needed rescue.bin for that. Granted I've only done two > > installs. ~:^) But there are two images called driver-1.bin and > > driver-2.bin which one might guess have drivers on them. Never used > > those either. Make that 2 installs on powerpc. > every install i have done on intel, powerpc and sparc has required > rescue.bin and drivers.tgz. driver-1.bin is drivers.tgz split into 3 > or 4 floppies. you either use the split floppies or the single > tarball. but rescue.bin has always been required unless you skip the > kernel install step. (which won't make for a bootable system) Somebody else pointed out the obvious, which is that I've not done a floppy-only install for many years, so it is using the images/files off the cdrom, so technically I am using those floppies. > > > Well, no, actually. It boots up to a lilo prompt from which you can > > mount your hard disk's root directory and like that. > > syslinux actually. and it can take a root= argument but if you don't > give a root= argument you get a root disk prompt. Yeah, that's what I said/meant. The boot-floppy-hfs.img floppy doesn't work the same way as the rescue floppy does for other architectures. My point is that for powerpc, the "rescue" function of the floppy with the word "rescue" in it's image file name is somewhat impotent. This can be somewhat confusing if you're not a graduate of the powerpc debian booting/installing gauntlet. Most especially because of the way the generic debian install docs refer to the rescue floppy for everything. > > There are two floppy images in the powerpc dist that might be > > mentioned. One is called rescue.bin, the other boot-floppy-hfs.img, > > and hence a newbie might easily think that the former is the rescue > > floppy mentioned often in the docs, but is not bootable on old world > > macs, it is an ext2 file system, actually. Maybe not bootable on > > any macs since people keep saying that newworld macs don't have > > floppy. Maybe they work on some other powerpc platforms, I don't > > know. > > rescue.bin is not bootable on anything. about the only thoeretical > way to make it bootable is by installing quik on the floppy, but i > rather doubt that would work. the only reason there is a rescue.bin > is becuase dbootstrap expects it for the kernel installation step. > and as we all know the bootfloppies code sucks balls, its simpler to > just make a bogus rescue.bin then to fsck around to kludge it into > using a hfs image. debian-installer should/hopefully/will have a > cleaner method to deal with these cross archetecture isses. > > > Uh, okay. I'm trying to see if I can build one with 2.2.18 that > > works. It may be a few days, however, as my fastest mac isn't > > fast. Maybe I should create a cross compile gcc on my x86 > > laptop > > building a cross compiler will take longer then recompiling the boot > floppies a hundred times on a 7200 ;-) (well unless your a compiler > god maybe) Wha? It takes the same amount of time to build a cross gcc as a native on my machine, namely about 30 minutes. Maybe you're thinking of other things that might be required, like libraries and such. That might take a while. ~:^) And I finally [duh] figured out how to make the floppies in a reasonable amount of time: instead of make release, make build, which leaves out the docs. phew. > i haven't heard anything particularly hopefull about the hfs boot > floppy, since Dan nor the top tier powerpc kernel hackers have any > idea whats wrong... still i hope it gets worked out, being able to > install debian on a macos free oldworld is quite valuable. indeed. > > just my crazy suggestion, if you can't get the keyboard to work right > for the rootdisk prompt, what about changing it to wait 10 or 15 > seconds for a rootdisk insertion and then continuing? would that be > difficult/messy to implement? Why does this sound way too easy? I'm gonna have to check that out. The other thing is that theoretically, we should be able to get the hardware to tell us that a floppy has been inserted. Possibly only on mac hardware, but hey. Or we could just poll the drive or something. Hmmm, lots of crazy ideas... a -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 11:35:50PM -0800, Tovar wrote:
> > just my crazy suggestion, if you can't get the keyboard to work right
> > for the rootdisk prompt, what about changing it to wait 10 or 15
> > seconds for a rootdisk insertion and then continuing? would that be
> > difficult/messy to implement?
> >
> > Well, the standard Mac way of doing things is the check the floppy status
> > and to read whatever gets inserted. That, of course, assumes the floppy
> > hardware provides that information. Actually, i wish the i386 installer
> > would do that, it would save alot of hassle.
>
> i386 generally can not do that.
>
> PowerPC theoretically could... if I could talk the driver into giving
> me that information. Suggestions welcome :)
Since AmigaOS did it as well and Amigas use standard PC floppy drives (only
DD, HD is different), it should work on i386 as well.
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
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Re: Booting to floppy
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 08:21:18PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > Ethan Benson wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:48:40PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > > Um, yeah, that must be what I meant. Actually, what I meant is > > > this: the docs constantly talk about booting the rescue floppy for > > > this that and the other. But the "rescue" floppy for the powerpc > > > port is an ext2 file system, and doesn't boot at all on old world > > > macs, and I just assumed that it must be for new world macs. If > > > not, then the rescue floppy image is a complete hoax for powerpc. > > > > the rescue floppy has only one purpose on powerpc, and that is to > > provide the kernel image that is installed in the `install OS and > > kernel modules' step. the bootable rescue floppy for oldworld macs is > > the hfs-boot.img (or whatever its called). > > I've never needed rescue.bin for that. Granted I've only done two > installs. ~:^) But there are two images called driver-1.bin and > driver-2.bin which one might guess have drivers on them. Never used > those either. You've probably done either network or CD installs. They both use rescue.bin; they don't require it be on a floppy, that's all. -- Daniel Jacobowitz Debian GNU/Linux Developer Monta Vista Software Debian Security Team -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 07:18:14PM -0500, John Anthony Kazos Jr. wrote: > Why can't we just use a Disk Tools floppy or something to run that > m68k booting app? (The Debian version of BootX, I forgot the name.) That's > what I'm planning to do anyway, within a few days...taking the minimal > System/Finder from the Net Install floppy (the README that comes with it > spefically talks about those files' minimalness) and do the following. debian can't use MacOS startup disks since MacOS is non-free and non-distributable. debian already has a `miboot' floppy which uses a special bootloader designed to look like MacOS to the hardware ROM. this is what the boot-hfs.img floppy is. it boots on any oldworld PowerPC. (it could probably be made to work on 68K macs without that much effort). the only problem with the current incarnation of this floppy is it boots, and prompts for the ramdisk but the keyboard doesn't work so you can't press enter to make the kernel continue booting. (Dan and others have been trying to fix this) -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 11:35:50PM -0800, Tovar wrote: > just my crazy suggestion, if you can't get the keyboard to work right > for the rootdisk prompt, what about changing it to wait 10 or 15 > seconds for a rootdisk insertion and then continuing? would that be > difficult/messy to implement? > > Well, the standard Mac way of doing things is the check the floppy status > and to read whatever gets inserted. That, of course, assumes the floppy > hardware provides that information. Actually, i wish the i386 installer > would do that, it would save alot of hassle. i386 generally can not do that. PowerPC theoretically could... if I could talk the driver into giving me that information. Suggestions welcome :) -- Daniel Jacobowitz Debian GNU/Linux Developer Monta Vista Software Debian Security Team -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
A slight correction to my message: I meant "BootX-like Debian-tool for m68k/Mac"...BootX itself is for powermacs. *sigh* I'm so very sleepy... On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, John Anthony Kazos Jr. wrote: > Why can't we just use a Disk Tools floppy or something to run that > m68k booting app? (The Debian version of BootX, I forgot the name.) That's > what I'm planning to do anyway, within a few days...taking the minimal > System/Finder from the Net Install floppy (the README that comes with it > spefically talks about those files' minimalness) and do the following. > > 1) On a drive with a swap/root partition pair, format the swap as MacOS > Standard and put the bigger install files there, and make a boot floppy > with the install bits on it. > > 2) Once Linux is installed, remake the swap as real swap and remake the > install-boot floppy as a regular-boot floppy. > > If this plan *won't* work, I'll know when I try it. If anyone has any > pointers on it, I'd appreciate them. The machines in question are Quadra > 700s, one of them with the 601 upgrade. > > But...hasn't *anyone* thought of doing this before? It may even work with > BootX (I'll try that if doing it with the debian tool doesn't work.) > > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Kenney Mark wrote: > > > All, > > > > I want to install Debian on a Mac, and can get my Power Macintosh 8500/120 > > to the Open Firmware boot prompt, but cannot find any documentation that > > tells me how to boot the "rescue floppy" from the boot prompt to start my > > Debian 2.2 installation. I'm guessing it's something like "boot fd:0"? > > Your help would be greatly appreciated... > > > > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > > > > > > > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Why can't we just use a Disk Tools floppy or something to run that m68k booting app? (The Debian version of BootX, I forgot the name.) That's what I'm planning to do anyway, within a few days...taking the minimal System/Finder from the Net Install floppy (the README that comes with it spefically talks about those files' minimalness) and do the following. 1) On a drive with a swap/root partition pair, format the swap as MacOS Standard and put the bigger install files there, and make a boot floppy with the install bits on it. 2) Once Linux is installed, remake the swap as real swap and remake the install-boot floppy as a regular-boot floppy. If this plan *won't* work, I'll know when I try it. If anyone has any pointers on it, I'd appreciate them. The machines in question are Quadra 700s, one of them with the 601 upgrade. But...hasn't *anyone* thought of doing this before? It may even work with BootX (I'll try that if doing it with the debian tool doesn't work.) On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Kenney Mark wrote: > All, > > I want to install Debian on a Mac, and can get my Power Macintosh 8500/120 > to the Open Firmware boot prompt, but cannot find any documentation that > tells me how to boot the "rescue floppy" from the boot prompt to start my > Debian 2.2 installation. I'm guessing it's something like "boot fd:0"? > Your help would be greatly appreciated... > > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
At 13:45 +0100 2/27/01, Marco d'Itri wrote: >On Feb 27, Andrew Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >There are two floppy images in the powerpc dist that might be > >mentioned. One is called rescue.bin, the other boot-floppy-hfs.img, > >and hence a newbie might easily think that the former is the rescue > >floppy mentioned often in the docs, but is not bootable on old world > >macs, it is an ext2 file system, actually. Maybe not bootable on > >any macs since people keep saying that newworld macs don't have > >floppy. Maybe they work on some other powerpc platforms, I don't > >know. >It does not work on IBM machines, and I can't see why it should work on >any other platform, since no open firmware version I know about >understands ext2. > >The only way to install debian on a CHRP machine is to extract the >kernel from the ext2 floppy and copy it on a raw or FAT-formatted disk. >And then you discover the kernel has no serial console support, so you >have to find a PCI video card and put it in the machine. After doing >that you can finally boot the system, at least if the kernel is not too >old for your machine and dies with some weird error message. > Would it help if I build a kernel for you? Groet Geert Stappers - Hit the right key to continue -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Feb 27, Andrew Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >There are two floppy images in the powerpc dist that might be >mentioned. One is called rescue.bin, the other boot-floppy-hfs.img, >and hence a newbie might easily think that the former is the rescue >floppy mentioned often in the docs, but is not bootable on old world >macs, it is an ext2 file system, actually. Maybe not bootable on >any macs since people keep saying that newworld macs don't have >floppy. Maybe they work on some other powerpc platforms, I don't >know. It does not work on IBM machines, and I can't see why it should work on any other platform, since no open firmware version I know about understands ext2. The only way to install debian on a CHRP machine is to extract the kernel from the ext2 floppy and copy it on a raw or FAT-formatted disk. And then you discover the kernel has no serial console support, so you have to find a PCI video card and put it in the machine. After doing that you can finally boot the system, at least if the kernel is not too old for your machine and dies with some weird error message. -- ciao, Marco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
just my crazy suggestion, if you can't get the keyboard to work right for the rootdisk prompt, what about changing it to wait 10 or 15 seconds for a rootdisk insertion and then continuing? would that be difficult/messy to implement? Well, the standard Mac way of doing things is the check the floppy status and to read whatever gets inserted. That, of course, assumes the floppy hardware provides that information. Actually, i wish the i386 installer would do that, it would save alot of hassle. -- Tovar (who remembers programming the 128K Mac) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 08:21:18PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > I've never needed rescue.bin for that. Granted I've only done two > installs. ~:^) But there are two images called driver-1.bin and > driver-2.bin which one might guess have drivers on them. Never used > those either. every install i have done on intel, powerpc and sparc has required rescue.bin and drivers.tgz. driver-1.bin is drivers.tgz split into 3 or 4 floppies. you either use the split floppies or the single tarball. but rescue.bin has always been required unless you skip the kernel install step. (which won't make for a bootable system) > Well, no, actually. It boots up to a lilo prompt from which you can > mount your hard disk's root directory and like that. syslinux actually. and it can take a root= argument but if you don't give a root= argument you get a root disk prompt. > There are two floppy images in the powerpc dist that might be > mentioned. One is called rescue.bin, the other boot-floppy-hfs.img, > and hence a newbie might easily think that the former is the rescue > floppy mentioned often in the docs, but is not bootable on old world > macs, it is an ext2 file system, actually. Maybe not bootable on > any macs since people keep saying that newworld macs don't have > floppy. Maybe they work on some other powerpc platforms, I don't > know. rescue.bin is not bootable on anything. about the only thoeretical way to make it bootable is by installing quik on the floppy, but i rather doubt that would work. the only reason there is a rescue.bin is becuase dbootstrap expects it for the kernel installation step. and as we all know the bootfloppies code sucks balls, its simpler to just make a bogus rescue.bin then to fsck around to kludge it into using a hfs image. debian-installer should/hopefully/will have a cleaner method to deal with these cross archetecture isses. > Uh, okay. I'm trying to see if I can build one with 2.2.18 that > works. It may be a few days, however, as my fastest mac isn't > fast. Maybe I should create a cross compile gcc on my x86 > laptop building a cross compiler will take longer then recompiling the boot floppies a hundred times on a 7200 ;-) (well unless your a compiler god maybe) i haven't heard anything particularly hopefull about the hfs boot floppy, since Dan nor the top tier powerpc kernel hackers have any idea whats wrong... still i hope it gets worked out, being able to install debian on a macos free oldworld is quite valuable. just my crazy suggestion, if you can't get the keyboard to work right for the rootdisk prompt, what about changing it to wait 10 or 15 seconds for a rootdisk insertion and then continuing? would that be difficult/messy to implement? -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
Ethan Benson wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:48:40PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > Um, yeah, that must be what I meant. Actually, what I meant is > > this: the docs constantly talk about booting the rescue floppy for > > this that and the other. But the "rescue" floppy for the powerpc > > port is an ext2 file system, and doesn't boot at all on old world > > macs, and I just assumed that it must be for new world macs. If > > not, then the rescue floppy image is a complete hoax for powerpc. > > the rescue floppy has only one purpose on powerpc, and that is to > provide the kernel image that is installed in the `install OS and > kernel modules' step. the bootable rescue floppy for oldworld macs is > the hfs-boot.img (or whatever its called). I've never needed rescue.bin for that. Granted I've only done two installs. ~:^) But there are two images called driver-1.bin and driver-2.bin which one might guess have drivers on them. Never used those either. > > Maybe it is anyway. Obviously the constant references to the rescue > > floppy in the docs are because the docs are just recycled i386 docs, > > which is fine, but really, there should be something that says that > > there is no real rescue floppy for powerpc. At least, there isn't a > > there is one, boot-hfs.img, except its broken in current boot > floppies... there is no boot floppy for newworlds since no newworld > has a floppy drive. > > > single floppy that boots to a prompt, unless you count "Insert root > > file system floppy now and hit return". > > that is exactly how x86 rescue floppies work. Well, no, actually. It boots up to a lilo prompt from which you can mount your hard disk's root directory and like that. There are two floppy images in the powerpc dist that might be mentioned. One is called rescue.bin, the other boot-floppy-hfs.img, and hence a newbie might easily think that the former is the rescue floppy mentioned often in the docs, but is not bootable on old world macs, it is an ext2 file system, actually. Maybe not bootable on any macs since people keep saying that newworld macs don't have floppy. Maybe they work on some other powerpc platforms, I don't know. > > So what I'm saying is that if you have an old world mac, the docs > > and the install procedure are quite broken, and yes, I've already > > volunteered to fix them. One thing at a time, though. > > unless someone figures out how to fix the oldworld boot floppies im > not sure there is a point in documenting them :( Uh, okay. I'm trying to see if I can build one with 2.2.18 that works. It may be a few days, however, as my fastest mac isn't fast. Maybe I should create a cross compile gcc on my x86 laptop a -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:48:40PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > Um, yeah, that must be what I meant. Actually, what I meant is > this: the docs constantly talk about booting the rescue floppy for > this that and the other. But the "rescue" floppy for the powerpc > port is an ext2 file system, and doesn't boot at all on old world > macs, and I just assumed that it must be for new world macs. If > not, then the rescue floppy image is a complete hoax for powerpc. the rescue floppy has only one purpose on powerpc, and that is to provide the kernel image that is installed in the `install OS and kernel modules' step. the bootable rescue floppy for oldworld macs is the hfs-boot.img (or whatever its called). > Maybe it is anyway. Obviously the constant references to the rescue > floppy in the docs are because the docs are just recycled i386 docs, > which is fine, but really, there should be something that says that > there is no real rescue floppy for powerpc. At least, there isn't a there is one, boot-hfs.img, except its broken in current boot floppies... there is no boot floppy for newworlds since no newworld has a floppy drive. > single floppy that boots to a prompt, unless you count "Insert root > file system floppy now and hit return". that is exactly how x86 rescue floppies work. > So what I'm saying is that if you have an old world mac, the docs > and the install procedure are quite broken, and yes, I've already > volunteered to fix them. One thing at a time, though. unless someone figures out how to fix the oldworld boot floppies im not sure there is a point in documenting them :( > You lucky newworld macs can just boot from the CD. Sigh. yup, newworlds actually have a implementation of OF that works (for the most part). -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Booting to floppy
Um, yeah, that must be what I meant. Actually, what I meant is this: the docs constantly talk about booting the rescue floppy for this that and the other. But the "rescue" floppy for the powerpc port is an ext2 file system, and doesn't boot at all on old world macs, and I just assumed that it must be for new world macs. If not, then the rescue floppy image is a complete hoax for powerpc. Maybe it is anyway. Obviously the constant references to the rescue floppy in the docs are because the docs are just recycled i386 docs, which is fine, but really, there should be something that says that there is no real rescue floppy for powerpc. At least, there isn't a single floppy that boots to a prompt, unless you count "Insert root file system floppy now and hit return". So what I'm saying is that if you have an old world mac, the docs and the install procedure are quite broken, and yes, I've already volunteered to fix them. One thing at a time, though. You lucky newworld macs can just boot from the CD. Sigh. a Daniel Jacobowitz wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:28:55PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > > Welcome to the powerpc boot floppy fiasco. The rescue floppy will > > only work on New World macs, and yours is an old world. The > > That's just not true. The rescue floppy is not meant to be booted off > of on this architecture at all. New World macs don't have a floppy > drive. > > You mean the boot CD only works on New World. > > -- > Daniel Jacobowitz Debian GNU/Linux Developer > Monta Vista Software Debian Security Team -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:28:55PM -0800, Andrew Sharp wrote: > Welcome to the powerpc boot floppy fiasco. The rescue floppy will > only work on New World macs, and yours is an old world. The That's just not true. The rescue floppy is not meant to be booted off of on this architecture at all. New World macs don't have a floppy drive. You mean the boot CD only works on New World. -- Daniel Jacobowitz Debian GNU/Linux Developer Monta Vista Software Debian Security Team -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Welcome to the powerpc boot floppy fiasco. The rescue floppy will only work on New World macs, and yours is an old world. The boot-floppy-hfs.img file is the image of a bootable floppy for the old world macs for install purposes, but it has a keyboard issue and doesn't work without some modifications, and then only if you have quick hands! See the list archives at http://lists.debian.org for more info on that. The best way to go is if you have MacOS on the machine, and use the `BootX' option, which is documented enough in the install docs for the powerpc port. a Geert Stappers wrote: > > Hallo Kenney, > > The boot-floppies are indeed for all architectures. > But for this question, debian-powerpc is a better place to ask. > ( there CC-ed ) > > At 20:25 +0100 2/26/01, Kenney Mark wrote: > >All, > > > >I want to install Debian on a Mac, and can get my Power Macintosh 8500/120 > >to the Open Firmware boot prompt, but cannot find any documentation that > >tells me how to boot the "rescue floppy" from the boot prompt to start my > >Debian 2.2 installation. I'm guessing it's something like "boot fd:0"? > >Your help would be greatly appreciated... > > > >Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > > > Groet Geert Stappers > - > Hit the right key to continue > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting to floppy
Hallo Kenney, The boot-floppies are indeed for all architectures. But for this question, debian-powerpc is a better place to ask. ( there CC-ed ) At 20:25 +0100 2/26/01, Kenney Mark wrote: >All, > >I want to install Debian on a Mac, and can get my Power Macintosh 8500/120 >to the Open Firmware boot prompt, but cannot find any documentation that >tells me how to boot the "rescue floppy" from the boot prompt to start my >Debian 2.2 installation. I'm guessing it's something like "boot fd:0"? >Your help would be greatly appreciated... > >Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Groet Geert Stappers - Hit the right key to continue -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
