Re: Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Tetralet]

Quoting Christian Perrier:

In the Taiwan case, one solution proposed has been asking the
taiwanese developer (there's only one).
This is a possible solution, sure. But what if this one individual is
indeed biased himself, who can tell?
(I do not suggest our Taiwanese DD is.I just raised a counter-argument)
I must make clear that the Taiwan issue is not only biased myself.
Some (must?) of the Debian users in Taiwan are concerned at this.
But we don't want to make this issue become too complicated and political,
They trust that Debian-Installer and Debian Developers are rational and cordial.
So they decied to appoint me, the Traditional Chinese translator of d-i, as the 
transmitter.
Here are some refreance about this issue:
(You may find more informations using Google...)
Converge informations:
http://wiki.debian.org.tw/index.php/InstallationSystemDiscussion
(This page is in Traditional Chinese)
(Thanks to the main maintainer, DebianJunkie)
Dan Jacobson and Andrew Lee, they are great Debian contributors:
Why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"?
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/debian-boot-200404/msg00438.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/debian-devel-200404/msg00448.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/debian-user-200404/msg00522.html
Chuan-kai Lin, Debian Developer:
Using the phrase "Taiwan, Province of China" would only serve to
alienate our users in Taiwan and serves no useful purposes toward the
goals of the project.  Therefore I recommend that we simply call Taiwan
Taiwan.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg05457.html
I maintain that following ISO 3166-1 with "Taiwan, Province of China"
changed to "Taiwan" is the best way to resolve this issue.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/04/msg01549.html
Anthony Fok, Debian Developer:
"Taiwan, P.O.C." is too sensitive.  Speaking as a
Hong Kong Chinese, using "Taiwan, P.O.C." will be a bad mistake.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/04/msg00777.html
And, There are a list of discussions in moto.debian.org.tw:
http://moto.debian.org.tw/viewtopic.php?t=3192
(This page is in Traditional and Simplified Chinese)
(The discussions here are too long for me to translate... sorry!)


==
±¼¾v?¥Õ¾v? ¤¤ÃĦ³®Ä½Õ²z
http://edm-prg.epaper.com.tw/click.php?ad_code=104744
==
PChome¥æ¤Í~~©¯ºÖ¤Ñ¤Ñ¦³ \*^o^*//
http://love.pchome.com.tw/
==
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Roger So]

(Feel free to drop the -devel crosspost when replying)

Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
Le jeudi 6 Mai 2004 19:40, Roger So a Ãcrit :
So theorectically you have six combinations here:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes, but not exactly:

- There is only a single traditional glyph system ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) for all 
languages.
True; the @traditional was there for the sake of completeness.

- Cantonese may also be written in European letters.
No. This is like saying Japanese can be written in English letters, or 
French in IPA.

For compatibility reasons, we may keep the usual locales used in GNU/Linux 
zh_CN, zh_TW, zh_HK). But there is no reason to use regions to define what 
are actually written scripts and glyphs systems:

- "zh_CN Simplified glyph, mostly used in mainland China"
- "zh_TW Traditional glyph, mostly used in Taiwan" (no reference to Region of 
Contry, people can choose based on their belief)
- "zh_HK  Written Cantonese, mostly used in Hong-Kong"
The trouble is that because the actual language used have subtle 
differences depending on the region, practically for l10n you need three 
different translations for the different regions anyway. Same situation 
as French vs Quebecois (though I suspect the difference between zh_CN 
and zh_HK is not as great).

Chinese evolved quite quickly during the last century, a period where 
unfortunately people in the 3 regions did not talk to each other much, 
and thus the language evolved in separate ways.

Note that there are other Chinese-speaking regions in the world, such as 
zh_MO and zh_SG; however I do not know enough about them.

I am getting in contact with Chinese friends being part of the PostgreSQL 
translation project and will get back to you shortly.
I'll also try to get my friends to give an opinion on this.

Roger

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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Jean-Michel POURE]

Le jeudi 6 Mai 2004 19:40, Roger So a Ãcrit :
> OK, here's my take.

Thanks for discussing about language issues. 

> People in Hong Kong speak Cantonese. People in Taiwan speak Mandarin.
> People in mainland China speak Putonghua. (Yes, I know Putonghua and
> Mandarin are essentially the same thing, but common terms and even
> grammar are slightly different across the three regions, so from a l10n
> point of view they should be treated as different.)

True.

Here, we may notice that the ISO notation starting with "zh" and ending with 
names of areas ("CN", "TW, "HK") are broken because there are several Chinese 
languages and several written scripts (as you explained). 

The locale system was probably defined a long time ago, (back when China was a 
third world and underveloped country). Actually the designers of the ISO did 
not even notice that there were several languages in China !!!

> (And although people in southern mainland China also speak Cantonese,
> the terms and grammar they use are the same as the rest of mainland
> China and not Hong Kong. (correct me if I'm wrong here!))
> All of these are dialects of the Chinese language. They can be written
> down in both Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese.

True.

> So theorectically you have six combinations here:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Yes, but not exactly:

- There is only a single traditional glyph system ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) for all 
languages.
- Cantonese may also be written in European letters.

Correct me if I am wrong . 

> Practically, nobody in Taiwan use Simplified Chinese. Only the older
> generation in mainland China still use Traditional Chinese. "Native"
> Hong Kong people use Traditional Chinese, but use of Simplified Chinese
> is increasing in printed materials to cater for the influx of mainland
> tourists swamping^Wvisiting Hong Kong. ;)
>
> So the default for zh_CN should be [EMAIL PROTECTED], zh_HK
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], and zh_TW [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> I'm not sure how the languagechooser handles locale modifiers, but
> showing both Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese at the top level
> should be acceptable.

For compatibility reasons, we may keep the usual locales used in GNU/Linux 
zh_CN, zh_TW, zh_HK). But there is no reason to use regions to define what 
are actually written scripts and glyphs systems:

- "zh_CN Simplified glyph, mostly used in mainland China"
- "zh_TW Traditional glyph, mostly used in Taiwan" (no reference to Region of 
Contry, people can choose based on their belief)
- "zh_HK  Written Cantonese, mostly used in Hong-Kong"

This way, users may be able to choose their prefered script, based on their 
knowledge of languages and glyphs.

Dear friends on the list, please do not post answers making parallels with 
Northern Irland or Portuguese.

Please let the Chinese express what they think of this proposal. One person is 
not enough as there are one billion potential Debian users in China.

I am getting in contact with Chinese friends being part of the PostgreSQL 
translation project and will get back to you shortly.

Cheers, Jean-Michel

Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

> http://www-306.ibm.com/software/globalization/topics/writing/references.jsp

Really interesting reference with good argumentation.

I take the following point:

In particular, do not use references or include them in lists that
suggest they are countries. Using âcountry or regionâ as a title in
lists is an acceptable alternative

I think this should lead us to use "Choose country or region" as main
menu entry.

And, yes, I have read the remaining of the page...:-)




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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Steve Langasek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> > What makes you think that will never change ? Why not imagine having a 
> > "version quebecoise" at some time ?
> 
> I have not claimed that it won't change; I'm merely pointing out that
> the existing design does accomodate regional language variants, but
> that this functionality is very rarely needed in practice.

We won't let them do this, tabernacle..:-). More seriously speaking,
when it comes to french language (this may differ for other widespread
languages) in Debian and more generally speaking all free Unices, all
french-speaking people work together on one translation. Several
french l10n initiatives indeed come from Quebec, because of the
spefcific sensitivity about preserving language and culture
therebut in most of these, one may find
French/Belgian/Swiss/others contributors.

However, in Debian, for some unknown reasons, I'm not aware of any
french-canadian contributor. Their presence in -devel-french or
-l10n-french is very weak, or even null. No idea why.

> 
> > The other problem is that it seems that this screen is either used for 
> > selecting a language variant, or for selecting a location place. That's 
> > not really what we can call consistency...
> 
> I do agree that every entry in languagechooser should have a 1:1
> correspondance to a translation.

Looks like we are three thinking about the same (you just write it
better than me, damn)


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

> Same as above if the considered french is not actually french, but 
> french-speaking canadian.

For technical things, our Quebec cousins speaks the same language than
us, thankfully...more or less...:-)

> 
> The main point is that making people choose a "country" is definitely 
> not a natural way to ask them to choose a language variant.

Well, sure, but these are the limits of the current way to represent
language variants indeed. The correct way is using modifiers as
suggested by Alastair McKinstry in another branch of this giant bu
interesting discussion. I'm currently trying to test what this may
give the the Traditional/Simplified Chinese choice.



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Languagechooser/countrychooser design (was: Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

This is first a followup on a specific topic, which further derives in
more general design considerations. Please followup to -boot.

Quoting Steve Langasek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> ... which is a problem, because what you really want is
> 
> 1) Choose Brazilian Portuguese
> 2) Be presented a list of countries associated with this language (pt_BR):
>-Brazil
>-Other
> 3) Choose Other, then choose "Japan"


Yeah, I agree. But the problem here is that "Brazilian Portuguese" is
currently represented by "pt_BR" while it should be something like
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" while "Classical" portuguese should be "pt" or
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]".

This one particular issue is really difficult to solve as long as
pt_BR is used for representing "Brazilian Portuguese".

Brazilian Portuguese is, according to what I've read from both
Brazilians and Portugueses, different enough from Portuguese that:

-it should be called "Brazilian"
-it should have its own ISO-639 code

> One more reason why I think the current behavior, where some
> languagechooser entries list a country and some do not, is a terrible
> inconsistent mess that needs to be fixed.


I agree. The current choice was a compromise at the time we introduced
the countrychooser/languagechooser dichotomy.

My first idea when I proposed it (which was quickly supported by
Steve) was that we needed both things:

-support all possible configurations (this means choosing all possible
 es_*, en_* and others locales)

-make no "a priori" choices about which countries were mentioned and
 which weren't

I was quickly supported by Steve on that matter and this is how
countrychooser came in.

However, some voices objected that we indeed added one new screen (and
sometimes two) while one of the major d-i guidelines has been to
reduce the amount of user interaction involved. Petter Reinholdtsen
was among those voices (though not alone). As I deeply respect
Petter's work and give his opinion a high credit, a discussion then a
compromise followed.

This compromise is what is now in Debian Installer.

However, we now see some more objections raised to this scheme (there
are others such as the verbosity of the presented choices).

So I think it's time we finally reconsider this and decide whether we
keep the current scheme, with its defaultsand qualities (it is now
well tested and quite solid)or make a final move towards the
"language then area/country" scheme, including changes to the language
choice verbosity.



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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 10:59:20AM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
> >And this is not what it's used for.  There is only *one* French
> >translation for d-i, and likewise only one German, Japanese, or Spanish.

> What makes you think that will never change ? Why not imagine having a 
> "version quebecoise" at some time ?

I have not claimed that it won't change; I'm merely pointing out that
the existing design does accomodate regional language variants, but
that this functionality is very rarely needed in practice.

> The other problem is that it seems that this screen is either used for 
> selecting a language variant, or for selecting a location place. That's 
> not really what we can call consistency...

I do agree that every entry in languagechooser should have a 1:1
correspondance to a translation.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Mike Hommey]

Steve Langasek wrote:
And this is not what it's used for.  There is only *one* French
translation for d-i, and likewise only one German, Japanese, or Spanish.
What makes you think that will never change ? Why not imagine having a 
"version quebecoise" at some time ?

The other problem is that it seems that this screen is either used for 
selecting a language variant, or for selecting a location place. That's 
not really what we can call consistency...

Mike
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 09:05:48AM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Christian Perrier wrote:
> >Brazilian in Japan:
> >  1) Chooses Portuguese (other countries)
> >  2) Is presented with all countries with valid pt_XX locales:
> > -Portugal
> > -Brazil
> > -Other
> >  3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"

> Then the problem is that this person won't get the brazilian locale 
> selected. Asking him to choose a country, and not a language variant 
> makes him choose a bad option for his locale configuration.

Mmm, but this can easily be worked around by setting each of the locale
variables separately.  If ll_LL isn't a valid locale (this can be
detected readily enough), then use ll_XX for the language setting and
yy_LL for the rest of the locale settings, where XX and yy are sensible
defaults for the corresponding language and country (location ;).

> Same as above if the considered french is not actually french, but 
> french-speaking canadian.

> The main point is that making people choose a "country" is definitely 
> not a natural way to ask them to choose a language variant.

And this is not what it's used for.  There is only *one* French
translation for d-i, and likewise only one German, Japanese, or Spanish.
It happens that there are two Portuguese translations, two Norwegian
translations, and two Chinese translations, because this happens to make
a lot of sense; and these translations are therefore each given their
own (translated) entry in the language chooser, each clearly
distinguished from the other.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Mike Hommey]

Christian Perrier wrote:
Brazilian in Japan:
  1) Chooses Portuguese (other countries)
  2) Is presented with all countries with valid pt_XX locales:
 -Portugal
 -Brazil
 -Other
  3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"
Then the problem is that this person won't get the brazilian locale 
selected. Asking him to choose a country, and not a language variant 
makes him choose a bad option for his locale configuration.

French in Japan
  1) Chooses French (other countries)
  2) Is presented with all countries with valid fr_XX locales:
 -Belgium
 -Canada
 -France
 -Switzerland
 -Luxembourg
 -Other
  3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"
Same as above if the considered french is not actually french, but 
french-speaking canadian.

The main point is that making people choose a "country" is definitely 
not a natural way to ask them to choose a language variant.

Mike
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[elijah wright]

> Why?  You're never going to make China happy by calling it Taiwan, or
> Taiwan happy by calling it Taiwan, Province of China.  So use the same
> code zh_TW and let people call the display name whatever the hell they
> want to call it.

how about there just not be a display name for this region AT ALL?  just
put zh_TW in the menu for location/country, mark it a "wontfix" bug, and
leave a bunch of pointers to the current flamewar/debate, and leave at it
that. fixing the bug would require a major change in the china-vs-taiwan
political situation, over which no one can exert any real influence.

not a good solution, either, but avoids the issue a bit.  prevents
nationalists from either side from getting their feathers too ruffled.
if they still insist on yacking about how their side is right, killfile
them.

elijah


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Denis Barbier]

On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 03:44:12PM -0700, William Ballard wrote:
> On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 05:34:41PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 11:03:29AM -0700, William Ballard wrote:
> > > How nutty would it be to have *both* options available and some sort of 
> > > switch to Toggle between the two?  Or at least a patchset or something.
> > 
> > Very.
> > 
> > Thanks for playing.
> 
> Why?  You're never going to make China happy by calling it Taiwan, or 
> Taiwan happy by calling it Taiwan, Province of China.  So use the same 
> code zh_TW and let people call the display name whatever the hell they 
> want to call it.

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/globalization/topics/writing/references.jsp

Denis


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[William Ballard]

On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 05:34:41PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 11:03:29AM -0700, William Ballard wrote:
> > How nutty would it be to have *both* options available and some sort of 
> > switch to Toggle between the two?  Or at least a patchset or something.
> 
> Very.
> 
> Thanks for playing.

Why?  You're never going to make China happy by calling it Taiwan, or 
Taiwan happy by calling it Taiwan, Province of China.  So use the same 
code zh_TW and let people call the display name whatever the hell they 
want to call it.

Plus what happens if you decide one or the other and the situation 
changes?


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Ben Burton]

> Changing the standard *is* participate in this (political) issue.

Unfortunately so is *not* changing the standard, which is presumably how
this debate got started.

Ben.


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 11:03:29AM -0700, William Ballard wrote:
> On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 01:44:55AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> > Around 18 o'clock on 06 May, Dale Amon wrote:
> > > On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:19:05AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> > > 
> > > Just make sure you have the options available. 
> > What the text(Taiwan, Province of China) is must be decided in d-i.

> I can't tell who said what.

> How nutty would it be to have *both* options available and some sort of 
> switch to Toggle between the two?  Or at least a patchset or something.

Very.

Thanks for playing.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 05:32:02PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote:
> Quoting Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> > Huh ? From your explanation, I understood that the bresilian will pick 
> > portuguese and then will choose between japan and brasil, depending on 
> > what he understands from "choose your country". The french will choose 
> > between japan and eventually france. While the american english will 
> > choose english(USA) and will be done with it.

> No. This is really hard to explain, though it is indeed, simple to
> use..:-)

> Brazilian in Japan:
>   1) Chooses Portuguese (other countries)
>   2) Is presented with all countries with valid pt_XX locales:
>  -Portugal
>  -Brazil
>  -Other
>   3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"

... which is a problem, because what you really want is

1) Choose Brazilian Portuguese
2) Be presented a list of countries associated with this language (pt_BR):
   -Brazil
   -Other
3) Choose Other, then choose "Japan"

One more reason why I think the current behavior, where some
languagechooser entries list a country and some do not, is a terrible
inconsistent mess that needs to be fixed.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[William Ballard]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 01:44:55AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> Around 18 o'clock on 06 May, Dale Amon wrote:
> > On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:19:05AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> > 
> > Just make sure you have the options available. 
> What the text(Taiwan, Province of China) is must be decided in d-i.

I can't tell who said what.

How nutty would it be to have *both* options available and some sort of 
switch to Toggle between the two?  Or at least a patchset or something.

That seems to be the most accurate representation of the situation.


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Dale Amon]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 01:44:55AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> > Likewise anyplace else where nationality is an
> Do NOT assume it as a matter of course when you say "Likewise". The case
> in China is not like the one in UK.

People are the same everywhere. They have a right to
decide for themselves, individually. What someone else
thinks about their choice is not relevant and is not
any of the UN's business, the ISO's business, 
or your or my business. 
 
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 Hardware & software system design, security
and networking, systems programming and Admin
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Wang WenRui]

Around 18 o'clock on 06 May, Dale Amon wrote:
> On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:19:05AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> 
> Just make sure you have the options available. 
What the text(Taiwan, Province of China) is must be decided in d-i.
> 
> 
> We'd have two options. UK and Ireland. You'll
> see one flag or the other flying in different
> parts of Belfast. The formal government is UK,
> but many look to Dublin. Would seem fair enough
> to let people make their own choice. For us, the
> default answer would be UK; but many would want
> to make a different selection (perhaps 20%+
> of the population.)
> 
> Likewise anyplace else where nationality is an
Do NOT assume it as a matter of course when you say "Likewise". The case
in China is not like the one in UK.

I totally agree with Colin Watson on this issue[1]: 
"Debian cannot win this argument and should not participate in it. We
have to choose names from some standards body somewhere, and no matter
what we do somebody will disagree."

Changing the standard *is* participate in this (political) issue.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/03/msg05328.html
> issue. Give all the possible choices and let
> people self select. 
> 
> Make reasonable defaults; but make dissent easy.
> 


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Dale Amon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> The only authority on what is a nation are the people
> who live there. When in doubt, ask them.

Which ones, catholics or orangists (I don't remember the common
name)? No offense intended here, but I think you get the point. Same
for Basque Country, by the way, and zillions of other places around
the world.

In the Taiwan case, one solution proposed has been asking the
taiwanese developer (there's only one).

This is a possible solution, sure. But what if this one individual is
indeed biased himself, who can tell?
(I do not suggest our Taiwanese DD is.I just raised a
counter-argument)

We are in politics on this topic, even if we don't like it. We just
have to find the less worse solution.






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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Dale Amon]

On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 12:19:05AM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> Around 16 o'clock on 06 May, Dale Amon wrote:
> > The only authority on what is a nation are the people
> > who live there. When in doubt, ask them.
> Can you ask them all? vote?

Just make sure you have the options available. 

> > D.Amon, Belfast, Northern Ireland

We'd have two options. UK and Ireland. You'll
see one flag or the other flying in different
parts of Belfast. The formal government is UK,
but many look to Dublin. Would seem fair enough
to let people make their own choice. For us, the
default answer would be UK; but many would want
to make a different selection (perhaps 20%+
of the population.)

Likewise anyplace else where nationality is an
issue. Give all the possible choices and let
people self select. 

Make reasonable defaults; but make dissent easy.

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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Wang WenRui]

Around 16 o'clock on 06 May, Dale Amon wrote:
> On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 10:09:41AM +0200, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> 
> The only authority on what is a nation are the people
> who live there. When in doubt, ask them.
Can you ask them all? vote?
> 
> D.Amon, Belfast, Northern Ireland
> 


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> Huh ? From your explanation, I understood that the bresilian will pick 
> portuguese and then will choose between japan and brasil, depending on 
> what he understands from "choose your country". The french will choose 
> between japan and eventually france. While the american english will 
> choose english(USA) and will be done with it.

No. This is really hard to explain, though it is indeed, simple to
use..:-)

Brazilian in Japan:
  1) Chooses Portuguese (other countries)
  2) Is presented with all countries with valid pt_XX locales:
 -Portugal
 -Brazil
 -Other
  3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"

French in Japan
  1) Chooses French (other countries)
  2) Is presented with all countries with valid fr_XX locales:
 -Belgium
 -Canada
 -France
 -Switzerland
 -Luxembourg
 -Other
  3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"

American in Japan
  1) Chooses English (other countries)
  2) Is presented with all countries with valid en_XX locales:
 -A lot...but not Japan
 -Other
  3) Chooses Other. Then get all countries and pick "Japan"

Of course, if the American living in Japan chooses English (USA), then
he will never have a chance to pick up Japan. However, he will always
be able to choose a Japanese timezone or a japanese mirror when time
will come to choose them. The only difference is that the *default*
will be US defaults

I however may get your point : the first screen tells them

"Choose this to proceed in English (USA)"
"Choose this to proceed in English (Great Britain)"
"Choose this to proceed in English (other countries)"


If the user thinks "hey, I am American, thus I choose "English
(USA)"bingo..:-)

Indeed this is an argument for dropping country-related choices in the
first screen and just show a list of languages. If this is what you
think, you just think like Steve Langasek.However, the mixed
choices for very common choices saves users one screenif you think
so, you just think like Petter Reinholdtsen...:-)

I personnaly tend to favour a single language choice option.



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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Dale Amon]

On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 10:09:41AM +0200, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> Le mercredi 5 Mai 2004 22:16, Humberto Massa a ?crit :
> > Google is always our friend; Taiwan and Hong Kong are countries at least
> > in the definitions ## 2, 3, 5, 7 *and* 9 below. If it's in the Web, it
> > ougha be true.
> 
> Stop refering to Google. The only world authority are the United-Nations.

The only authority on what is a nation are the people
who live there. When in doubt, ask them.

D.Amon, Belfast, Northern Ireland

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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Mike Hommey]

Christian Perrier wrote:
Quoting Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

So there's a configuration path difference between a French in Japan, an 
American English in Japan and a Brasilian in Japan...

No
Huh ? From your explanation, I understood that the bresilian will pick 
portuguese and then will choose between japan and brasil, depending on 
what he understands from "choose your country". The french will choose 
between japan and eventually france. While the american english will 
choose english(USA) and will be done with it.

Mike
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Mike Hommey]

Christian Perrier wrote:
In the case you cite here, the chosen "country" is only used by
further packages which need a "location" such as the timezone
configuration step and (but not yet implemented) the mirror settings.
So there's a configuration path difference between a French in Japan, an 
American English in Japan and a Brasilian in Japan...
Location and language variants should definitely be separated. I think 
there's a conceptual problem having a configuration screen not making 
the same kind of configurations depending on value sets.

Mike
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> So there's a configuration path difference between a French in Japan, an 
> American English in Japan and a Brasilian in Japan...

No

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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Mike Hommey]

Christian Perrier wrote:
(...)
Finally, on this short screen, you can choose "Other" which will drop
you into the world "country" list (the iso-3166 list). Choosing a
country there will only set the country value, but NOT the locale
value because this will be an unsupported locale.
What is the meaning that the chosen "country" is supposed to have, then ?
On one hand, it is a language variant, on the other hand it is a 
"position" location ? That seems rather strange...

Mike
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> of setting up /etc/apt/sources.list after the first reboot. It could
> also be used to produce a reasonable default choice of timezone,
> although I'm not sure if it actually is at the moment.

It is used for this.



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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Christian Perrier wrote:
> (...)
> >Finally, on this short screen, you can choose "Other" which will drop
> >you into the world "country" list (the iso-3166 list). Choosing a
> >country there will only set the country value, but NOT the locale
> >value because this will be an unsupported locale.
> 
> What is the meaning that the chosen "country" is supposed to have, then ?
> On one hand, it is a language variant, on the other hand it is a 
> "position" location ? That seems rather strange...

In the case you cite here, the chosen "country" is only used by
further packages which need a "location" such as the timezone
configuration step and (but not yet implemented) the mirror settings.




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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Jean-Michel POURE]

Le jeudi 6 Mai 2004 12:42, Miles Bader a écrit :
> Stop refering to Google. The only world authority are the United-Nations.
> Only because we didn't have google.

I see, you are refering to "Google-Nations".

Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Miles Bader]

Jean-Michel POURE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Stop refering to Google. The only world authority are the United-Nations.

Only because we didn't have google.

-miles
-- 
`Life is a boundless sea of bitterness'


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Colin Watson]

On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 04:12:17AM -0400, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
> Adam Majer wrote:
> > Indeed. The word "country" needs to be replaced by "locale" or
> > similar.
> 
> That's a good choice, actually, especially given that the technical
> name for the thing which this selection is used for is indeed
> "locale".  Despite the "language_country" form of locales (which was
> misguided in the first place and misimplemented in the second place),

If that needs to be solved, it's well out of the scope of d-i.

> effectively the only thing the "country" is used for is picking the
> locale code.

That is not true. It's used to produce a reasonable default choice of
mirror on businesscard and netinst images, and similarly in the process
of setting up /etc/apt/sources.list after the first reboot. It could
also be used to produce a reasonable default choice of timezone,
although I'm not sure if it actually is at the moment.

-- 
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> Okay, but in all these steps, what is actually done by localechooser and 
> by countrychooser ? I read the thread (well, I must say I didn't read 
> ALL the thread...) but I still can't figure out which is which and what 
> it does. Also note that it's been a while I last installed a Debian, so...
> Final question: is all that about choosing a language (for locale) or 
> choosing a location (place) (for timezone or whatever else) ?

There is no localechooser. In d-i, you first get the languagechooser
menu. It allows people choosing a language. For simplification
reasons, this screen already includes some country choices, for
instance you can choose "English (USA)" or "English (Australia)" or
"English (other countries)".

If you choose "English (USA)", you're not prompted for any country at
all. The country is set to USA (debconf value
debian-installer/country) and the language is set to en (debconf value
debian-installer/language) while the locale is set to en_US (debconf
value debian-installer/locale)

If you choose "English (other countries)", the language is set to en
and you're then dropped into another screen for choosing a country.

This screen is called the "short list". It only lists countries for
which a valid en_XX locale is supported by the locales package (in
this case, Canada/Australia/Great Britain/USA/New Zealand/India/).

Choosing a country there will set the country value to that country
and the locale value to the given en_XX locale.

Finally, on this short screen, you can choose "Other" which will drop
you into the world "country" list (the iso-3166 list). Choosing a
country there will only set the country value, but NOT the locale
value because this will be an unsupported locale.

This seems complicated but this was needed for being sure to support
all supported locales for some widespread languages such as English or
Spanish.

The implementation of this is complicated. The consequence for the
user is not (or is supposed not to be...:-)))



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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Mike Hommey]

Christian Perrier wrote:
(...)
Please please please have a real look on how Debian Installer works
before throwing ideas in the wild, if possible.
The above case is perfectly dealt with by d-i. English speaking
Canadians will choose "English (other countries)" at first screen,
then "Canada" at second screen (which will then list all countries for
which a valid en_XX locale exists). French-speaking Canadians will
choose "French (Canada)" at first screen and will indeed never see the
second screen.
Same for Dutch/French/German speaking people in Belgium,
German/French/Italian speaking people in Switzerland and so on.
(...)
Okay, but in all these steps, what is actually done by localechooser and 
by countrychooser ? I read the thread (well, I must say I didn't read 
ALL the thread...) but I still can't figure out which is which and what 
it does. Also note that it's been a while I last installed a Debian, so...
Final question: is all that about choosing a language (for locale) or 
choosing a location (place) (for timezone or whatever else) ?

Mike
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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Jean-Michel POURE]

Le mercredi 5 Mai 2004 22:16, Humberto Massa a écrit :
> Google is always our friend; Taiwan and Hong Kong are countries at least
> in the definitions ## 2, 3, 5, 7 *and* 9 below. If it's in the Web, it
> ougha be true.

Stop refering to Google. The only world authority are the United-Nations.

Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Nathanael Nerode]

Adam Majer wrote:
> Indeed. The word "country" needs to be replaced by "locale" or similar.

That's a good choice, actually, especially given that the technical name for
the thing which this selection is used for is indeed "locale".  Despite the
"language_country" form of locales (which was misguided in the first place
and misimplemented in the second place), effectively the only thing the
"country" is used for is picking the locale code.

-- 
There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Adam Majer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> Indeed. The word "country" needs to be replaced by "locale" or similar. 
> It might be best to drop the word country in to avoid any "international 
> incidents". For example, Canada has two locales, English and French. You 
> don't say,
> 
> Choose your country:
>  * English Canada
>  * French Canada

Please please please have a real look on how Debian Installer works
before throwing ideas in the wild, if possible.

The above case is perfectly dealt with by d-i. English speaking
Canadians will choose "English (other countries)" at first screen,
then "Canada" at second screen (which will then list all countries for
which a valid en_XX locale exists). French-speaking Canadians will
choose "French (Canada)" at first screen and will indeed never see the
second screen.

Same for Dutch/French/German speaking people in Belgium,
German/French/Italian speaking people in Switzerland and so on.

The "country" choice is not only intended for choosing a
locale. Anyway, even in such case, the d-i team tries to use
understandable terms as much as possible and locale isn't one for Bob
Users...:-)

The use of the word "country" is currently debated. I considered the
case closed for the main countrychooser screen. The main menu entry
still seems to be a problem and is dealt with.



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Re: Definition of COUNTRY (Was: Resignation)

[Adam Majer]

Steve Langasek wrote:
On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 07:05:00AM +0800, David Palmer wrote:
 

@ 05/05/2004 11:40 : wrote Wang WenRui :
 

The 2nd screen of d-i:
  /-[Choose *country*]-\
  | Choose your country:   |
  ||
  |  China |
  |  Hong Kong |
  |  Taiwan|
  ||
  ||
  \___/
This is ridiculous. Nobody calls Hong Kong a country.
   

It is incorrect to call it as a country.  It is very relevant to list it
in the installer, due to the de facto differences in written language
use between Hong Kong (and blame the British if you like, but the
difference is there) and the rest of mainland China.
 

Indeed. The word "country" needs to be replaced by "locale" or similar. 
It might be best to drop the word country in to avoid any "international 
incidents". For example, Canada has two locales, English and French. You 
don't say,

Choose your country:
 * English Canada
 * French Canada
That would be inapproriate. It should be,
Select your locale:
 * Canada
+ English
+ French
This can be a very sensitive matter, too sensitive if you ask me. Just 
think about:

Choose your country:
 * Israel
 * Palestine
or for similar reaction,
 * Israel & West Bank
That is why the word "country" should be dropped in favour of "locale". 
Then we can keep Taiwan and Palestine and Tibet and others in the 
installer (or even add them :). At least with "locale" no one can 
complain that anyone is in favour of segregation or of trying to 
separate countries.

- Adam
PS: For people that don't know what locale means,
*lo·cale*
 
( P )  *Pronunciation Key* 
  (l-kl)
/n./

  1. A place, especially with reference to a particular event
  2. The scene or setting, as of a novel.

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