Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Colin Walters]

Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> How can we trust someone who isn't one of us?

Adam, this is ridiculous.  We implicitly trust a heck of a lot of
people who aren't one of us.  Have you audited all the code of all the
non Debian-native programs you maintain (whose authors were not Debian
developers)?  Do you expect other Debian developers to?

I don't see how you have any cause at all to imply Ethan is sabotaging
the boot-floppies.

He does a lot of good work for this project, and all I can say is that
I hope we can get over these differences.


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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Brian May]

> "Anthony" == Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Anthony> On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:32:06PM +1100, Glenn McGrath
Anthony> wrote:

>> What do you think of the constant infighting that happens here,
>> do you thing its a neccesary evil ?

Isn't it fun ???

Anthony> _GLENN_. IS IT REALLY TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR YOU TO NOT CC
Anthony> ME ON MAILING LIST POSTS?

Anthony> IF IT IS, WELCOME TO MY KILLFILE.

Seriously, if both people try to blame the infighting on the other
person, well... its not going to stop the infighting any time soon.
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Anthony Towns]

On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:32:06PM +1100, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> What do you think of the constant infighting that happens here, do you
> thing its a neccesary evil ?

_GLENN_. IS IT REALLY TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR YOU TO NOT CC ME ON MAILING
LIST POSTS?

IF IT IS, WELCOME TO MY KILLFILE.

There, did you actually notice that this time?

No, I don't, which is why I'm inclined to strongly discourage idiotic
things like, say, repeatedly changing the severity of non-RC bugs to RC
severities, or hacking other peoples packages from within your package.

How about attacks on maintainers? Do you think they're a necessary evil?
When they occur, do you think that all involved should agree with
the attacker, or at least out of politeness fail to demur to the more
egregious comments, until the maintainer breaks down in frustration
and... does what?  Stops maintaining the package, quits the project
frustrated with all the political maneuovering and flames?

No one's taking offense at the bug report. People are taking offense
to Ethan repeatedly and incorrectly raising the severity of the bug,
and both threatening to and actually hijacking the decision.

But hey, as long as your motives are pure, right?

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 "Security here. Yes, maam. Yes. Groucho glasses. Yes, we're on it.
   C'mon, guys. Somebody gave an aardvark a nose-cut: somebody who
can't deal with deconstructionist humor. Code Blue."
-- Mike Hoye,
  see http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/armadillos.txt



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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Glenn McGrath]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:22:12 +1000
"Anthony Towns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You might want to ask yourself why you're getting involved in this one
> rather than looking at the bug report and trying to fix the package.
> 

Because im trying to make people see that constant infighting isnt
productive.

I was trying not to get dragged into this particular argument, i would
rather focus my efforts on busybox improvements possibly for the post
woody installer. I thought it was worth the effort to try and give you
some perspective.

Ethan will probably disapear and contribute nothing more... he rubbed me
the wrong way a couple of times (re: busybox bloat), but i respected him
for his passion. If we had been able to get him to work with everyone
else then it everyone would be better off, particularly for powerpc.

What do you think of the constant infighting that happens here, do you
thing its a neccesary evil ?


Glenn


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[aj@azure.humbug.org.au: Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)]

[Anthony Towns]

Grrr. Don't Cc me on posts to debian-* mailing lists! Geez. My headers
are set. The developers reference recommends it. I'm sure I've mentioned
this. What more do you want?!

On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:09:26PM +1100, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> I dont think he would have much chance of getting through the NM process
> with the enemies hes made, do you ?

He's had plenty of chances to join before making enemies. He also doesn't
have to make enemies.

> Why does it matter where a bugfix comes from ?

Not particularly. It matters what the bug fix is: cf the patch Ethan
committed to boot-floppies CVS. And it seems reasonable not to make
randomly setting unimportant bugs to grave and flaming the maintainer
about them the most effective way of getting a bug fixed.

> Generally speaking, as long as it fixes a bug and doesnt introduce
> others it should be accepted. (note i havent looked at this specific bug
> or patche)

There isn't a working patch for this bug.

And perhaps you should take the time to look into the issues before
weighing in.

> I dont agree with these actions, i think its his misguided attempts to
> improve the packages, 

Or his misguided attempts to make sure whatever he says goes.

> > But hey, politically inspired apoplectic fits is the reason everyone
> > joins Debian, isn't it?
> I thought we all joined to get involved with endless flamewars (sarcasm)

You might want to ask yourself why you're getting involved in this one
rather than looking at the bug report and trying to fix the package.

Regards,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 "Security here. Yes, maam. Yes. Groucho glasses. Yes, we're on it.
   C'mon, guys. Somebody gave an aardvark a nose-cut: somebody who
can't deal with deconstructionist humor. Code Blue."
-- Mike Hoye,
  see http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/armadillos.txt



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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Glenn McGrath]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:06:27 +1000
"Anthony Towns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:52:07PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> > > To work efficiently as a team we have to be able to trust each
other to
> > > perform our own tasks.
> > How can we trust someone who isn't one of us?
> 
> Or, to put it in a way that doesn't sound quite so xenophobic, why
> should we trust someone who refuses to go through our fairly trivial
> identification process (and thus avoids the accountability it attempts
> to establish), and who refuses to go through the tasks and philosophy
> checks to make sure he can actually function as a part of the project?
> 

I dont think he would have much chance of getting through the NM process
with the enemies hes made, do you ?

Why does it matter where a bugfix comes from ?
Generally speaking, as long as it fixes a bug and doesnt introduce
others it should be accepted. (note i havent looked at this specific bug
or patche)

> Ethan's quite a fan of bug terrorism (continually upgrading or
reopening
> bugs the maintainer disagrees with) and, apparently, NMU terrorism
> (threatening to either NMU your package, or hacking into your package
> from another package). Especially the latter isn't something that
helps
> Debian development.
> 

I dont agree with these actions, i think its his misguided attempts to
improve the packages, if he cannot work with the maintainer/developer
then i would encourage him to fork the package and distribute it by
alternative means.

> But hey, politically inspired apoplectic fits is the reason everyone
> joins Debian, isn't it?
> 

I thought we all joined to get involved with endless flamewars (sarcasm)

There are lots of good people at debian, however sometimes i cant here
them for all the shouting.



Glenn


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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Adam Heath]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Ethan Benson wrote:

> please then remove all that i have contributed from this project, all
> of it, revert, remove etc.  also be sure to remove the yaboot package
> from debian as well.  im sure the powerpc people will be happy then.

Sorry, can't do that.  You applied patches, with the understanding that they
would be under the same license of that which you were patching.


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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Anthony Towns]

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:52:07PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> > To work efficiently as a team we have to be able to trust each other to
> > perform our own tasks.
> How can we trust someone who isn't one of us?

Or, to put it in a way that doesn't sound quite so xenophobic, why
should we trust someone who refuses to go through our fairly trivial
identification process (and thus avoids the accountability it attempts
to establish), and who refuses to go through the tasks and philosophy
checks to make sure he can actually function as a part of the project?

Ethan's quite a fan of bug terrorism (continually upgrading or reopening
bugs the maintainer disagrees with) and, apparently, NMU terrorism
(threatening to either NMU your package, or hacking into your package
from another package). Especially the latter isn't something that helps
Debian development.

But hey, politically inspired apoplectic fits is the reason everyone
joins Debian, isn't it?

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 "Security here. Yes, maam. Yes. Groucho glasses. Yes, we're on it.
   C'mon, guys. Somebody gave an aardvark a nose-cut: somebody who
can't deal with deconstructionist humor. Code Blue."
-- Mike Hoye,
  see http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/armadillos.txt



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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Ethan Benson]

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:52:07PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> 
> > Lets all remember that we are all on the same team.
> 
> Ethan is not a developer.

please then remove all that i have contributed from this project, all
of it, revert, remove etc.  also be sure to remove the yaboot package
from debian as well.  im sure the powerpc people will be happy then.

-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/



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Re: teamwork (was Re: #103302 ask permission blah blah)

[Adam Heath]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Glenn McGrath wrote:

> Lets all remember that we are all on the same team.

Ethan is not a developer.

>
> To work efficiently as a team we have to be able to trust each other to
> perform our own tasks.

How can we trust someone who isn't one of us?


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