Re: [D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
On Fri, Dec 24, 2004 at 01:14:45AM +0100, Nikolai Prokoschenko wrote: > > So even using &manual; as the book name "Debian Installation Manual" > (or better "&dist; Installation Manual") will still lead to problems. Yes. > "Just look this up in the manual named &manual" look awkward to me. This is the way of usage I had in mind. Another possibility is to use tags such as &manual_gen, &manual_dat, &manual_loc, etc. (one per case) for languages that need this. (I suppose there is no need all translations to use one and the same set of tags.) Anton Zinoviev -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
On Dec 23, 2004 at 06:34:55PM +0200, Anton Zinoviev wrote: > > > Current entity New entity Definition > > > - --- manual "Debian Installer Manual" > > How will it be used? You can forget 'Just look this up in &manual;' as > > this is untranslatable to languages, in which the endings of adjectives and > I suppose that the Russian verison of &manual should be the official > Russian name of the manual named "Debian Installer Manual". Consider how > the sentence "Just look this up in the manual named &manual" differs > from "Just look this up in &manual". In the first sentece there are no > problems with the translation of &manual. In Russian language it is normal to change the official names of book, films and so on according to grammatical rules. So even using &manual; as the book name "Debian Installation Manual" (or better "&dist; Installation Manual") will still lead to problems. "Just look this up in the manual named &manual" look awkward to me. I just want to bring some attention to the topic, as having problems is rather probable - this is something the manual authors have to keep in mind. -- Nikolai Prokoschenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] / Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 02:02:15AM +0100, Nikolai Prokoschenko wrote: > On Dec 20, 2004 at 10:08:20PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > > > Current entity New entity Definition > > > - --- manual "Debian Installer Manual" > > How will it be used? You can forget 'Just look this up in &manual;' as > this is untranslatable to languages, in which the endings of adjectives and > nouns change. In Russian, this sentence would need a different &manual; > than 'This is &manual;'. I suppose that the Russian verison of &manual should be the official Russian name of the manual named "Debian Installer Manual". Consider how the sentence "Just look this up in the manual named &manual" differs from "Just look this up in &manual". In the first sentece there are no problems with the translation of &manual. Anton Zinoviev -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
Frans Pop wrote: Current entity New entity Definition - --- - --- distr"Debian" debian distr-full "Debian GNU/Linux" - --- distr-tech "debian" I feel "dist" much nicer than "distr". Regards, ogi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
On Dec 20, 2004 at 10:08:20PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > Current entity New entity Definition > - --- manual "Debian Installer Manual" How will it be used? You can forget 'Just look this up in &manual;' as this is untranslatable to languages, in which the endings of adjectives and nouns change. In Russian, this sentence would need a different &manual; than 'This is &manual;'. -- Nikolai Prokoschenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] / Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
Hi Frans, your mail contains Cc: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] Seidel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Maybe you want to resend it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, Dec 20, 2004 at 10:08:20PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > OK. I think we can address both issues. > > The next question is: what entities do we need? > I have created a proposal that gives a more general setup and allows a > gradual transition by not changing existing entities. > > I would appreciate any comments and suggestions for improvement or > additions. Your approach looks good. > Current entity New entity Definition > - --- > - --- distr"Debian" > debian distr-full "Debian GNU/Linux" > - --- distr-tech "debian" > > release release-version "3.1" > releasename release-name "sarge" or "Sarge" > - --- release-tech "sarge" > > - --- D-I "Debian Installer" > - --- manual "Debian Installer Manual" > d-i d-i "debian-installer"> > d-i-manual d-i-manual > "debian-installer-manual"> > Comments: > - - Personally I feel we should capitalize Sarge for the English verion of the > manual as Sarge is the proper name of the release (and is derived from the > name of a character in a movie and should be capitalized as such) I want to add that capitalized code names are used in the English version of the Debian Reference as well. Jens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[D-I Manual] Proposal for new entities and entity translation (was: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 (Please keep the main discussion for this subject on d-boot.) On Tuesday 14 December 2004 07:40, Miroslav Kure wrote: > Well, before we switched to the new build scheme with just one master > file, you could redefine entities in install.xx.xml -- first one > definition wins, so if you put them before including common.ent, > that's what you want. On Monday 13 December 2004 15:23, Colin Watson wrote: > Better branding support would be nice in the manual in general [...] OK. I think we can address both issues. I have a patch ready that allows translation: - - added a new directory build/entities/l10n - - moved translatable entities from build/entities/common.ent to build/entities/l10n/master.ent - - included code in buildone.sh that will look for a file build/entities/l10n/.ent and include that _before_ the master.ent The next question is: what entities do we need? I have created a proposal that gives a more general setup and allows a gradual transition by not changing existing entities. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions for improvement or additions. Current entity New entity Definition - --- - --- distr"Debian" debian distr-full "Debian GNU/Linux" - --- distr-tech "debian" release release-version "3.1" releasename release-name "sarge" or "Sarge" - --- release-tech "sarge" - --- D-I "Debian Installer" - --- manual "Debian Installer Manual" d-i d-i "debian-installer"> d-i-manual d-i-manual "debian-installer-manual"> Comments: - - "distr" is to be kind to derived distributions and to allow transision from "debian" to "distr-full" - - the change from "release" to "release-version" is mainly for consistency in the naming of the entities - - "-tech" is short for technical, implying lower case - - Personally I feel we should capitalize Sarge for the English verion of the manual as Sarge is the proper name of the release (and is derived from the name of a character in a movie and should be capitalized as such) - - the change from releasename to release-name is to allow transition: some existing occurrences of "releasename" will need to be replaced by release-name, others by release-tech - - "D-I" is possible as entity names are case sensitive -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBxz9Egm/Kwh6ICoQRAtE+AJ9SQA15pM+56BaldJTa3xmYaGVmQQCfWVar 6yqVcwWGbQ2rKmenDnJqfqI= =oAww -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 01:35:54AM +0100, Nikolai Prokoschenko wrote: > > Russians would normally not transliterate 'Sarge' in an official document > (even though they'd do that in informal situations). But language-specific > entities would be fine nevertheless (URLs anyone?) Well, before we switched to the new build scheme with just one master file, you could redefine entities in install.xx.xml -- first one definition wins, so if you put them before including common.ent, that's what you want. -- Miroslav Kure -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
Colin Watson wrote: [snip] > Better branding support would be nice in the manual in general; at the > moment my Ubuntu diff is distressingly enormous due to the frequency > with which "Debian" is mentioned by name without the use of an entity. > The only appropriate entity right now is &debian;, which expands to > "Debian GNU/Linux"; I'm guessing that would get pretty unwieldy if used > throughout the text. It might even be wrong for Hurd/*BSD/etc. Thiemo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 11:32:45PM +0100, Jens Seidel wrote: > The proper solution is to allow each language team to define > &releasename; and to introduce &releasename-dir;. The first one may > expand to Sarge, sarge or whatever (what is used in Greek, Russian, > Chinese, ... which do not use latin characters?) and the second one to > sarge which should be used for filenames, directory names, ... Russians would normally not transliterate 'Sarge' in an official document (even though they'd do that in informal situations). But language-specific entities would be fine nevertheless (URLs anyone?) -- Nikolai Prokoschenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] / Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 11:32:45PM +0100, Jens Seidel wrote: > Hi Frans, > > I've created two additional entities in common.ent: > > > > + > > + > > > > - -cap: capitalized > > - -uc: uppercase > > That's indeed a solution, but please note that it is the wrong way to > solve this. XML is used to separate content and style/formating. > > What happens if a language team decides to change Debian code names > from one style to another one? They have to substitute one entity > hundreds of times. Or the case of Ubuntu, which takes the manual and replaces all the Debian-specific entities with other ones (so we have "warty" instead of "sarge"). Better branding support would be nice in the manual in general; at the moment my Ubuntu diff is distressingly enormous due to the frequency with which "Debian" is mentioned by name without the use of an entity. The only appropriate entity right now is &debian;, which expands to "Debian GNU/Linux"; I'm guessing that would get pretty unwieldy if used throughout the text. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
Hi Frans, > On Sunday 12 December 2004 21:33, Holger Wansing wrote: > > in german we need, maybe in difference to e.g. english, Sarge > > (upper case) as discription of the branch and sarge > > (lower case) for example in filesystem paths. > > > > So we need different entities for that. > Yes, I can see the need for that. For Dutch a capital S would be preferred > as well when referring to the release name. I'm the person who contacted Holger to fix this. > I've created two additional entities in common.ent: > > + > + > > - -cap: capitalized > - -uc: uppercase That's indeed a solution, but please note that it is the wrong way to solve this. XML is used to separate content and style/formating. What happens if a language team decides to change Debian code names from one style to another one? They have to substitute one entity hundreds of times. The proper solution is to allow each language team to define &releasename; and to introduce &releasename-dir;. The first one may expand to Sarge, sarge or whatever (what is used in Greek, Russian, Chinese, ... which do not use latin characters?) and the second one to sarge which should be used for filenames, directory names, ... To support this, it's necessary to review the code and to replace &releasename; by &releasename-dir; (searching for should suffice??). When you are sure that it's to late for this change, it's also possible to introduce &releasename-name; in the same way as you suggest and to use this in the code (or in a few translations only) when we refer to the name and want our own style. So there's no need to touch English files. PS: I suggest to substitute / *- */ by — (in German we use " – " instead). Please CC: me, I'm not subscribed. Jens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 12 December 2004 21:33, Holger Wansing wrote: > in german we need, maybe in difference to e.g. english, Sarge > (upper case) as discription of the branch and sarge > (lower case) for example in filesystem paths. > > So we need different entities for that. Yes, I can see the need for that. For Dutch a capital S would be preferred as well when referring to the release name. I've created two additional entities in common.ent: + + - -cap: capitalized - -uc: uppercase Cheers, FJP -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBvLUkgm/Kwh6ICoQRAkY7AJ4qcUiOW/rNaz2+nFI9pn8X8urh+wCggV5o VkxLHwKOBbj8sm2FVvYHx9o= =JwFy -END PGP SIGNATURE-
"Sarge" and "sarge" in the manual
Hello, in german we need, maybe in difference to e.g. english, Sarge (upper case) as discription of the branch and sarge (lower case) for example in filesystem paths. So we need different entities for that. ??? Gruss Holger -- == Created with Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 under Debian GNU LINUX 3.1 Sarge (testing). http://counter.li.org/ Registered LinuxUser #311290 Spamfiltering powered by www.spamassassin.org = -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
