Re: Things we need from sid

[Jørgen Hermanrud Fjeld]

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On Friday 01 February 2002 23:52, Herbert Xu wrote:
> J?rgen Hermanrud Fjeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm running some new quite expensive servers. Dual processor, 1GB RAM,
> > and not to forget a few ultra-fast-wide-narrow,bla.bla scsi-3 disks. And
> > oh, it's the Mylex AcceleRAID adapter, and oh I can't install with a 2.2
> > kernel, since there are no DAC960 drivers in any of the boot disks!
>
> Bullshit.  The compact flavour has the DAC960 driver.

And I didn't get it to work 12 months ago, but I see now that the reiserfs 
flavour has both reiserfs and DAC960 driver, so I'll try it today.

I might have done something wrong, but none of the boot disks I used then 
with 2.2 seemed to recognize the RAID adapter, but the 2.4.X kernel did.

Sorry for the bullshit, it was derived from experience, not checking today.


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 Sincerely
 Jørgen Hermanrud Fjeld

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Re: Things we need from sid

[Jørgen Hermanrud Fjeld]

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On Friday 01 February 2002 23:52, Herbert Xu wrote:
> J?rgen Hermanrud Fjeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm running some new quite expensive servers. Dual processor, 1GB RAM,
> > and not to forget a few ultra-fast-wide-narrow,bla.bla scsi-3 disks. And
> > oh, it's the Mylex AcceleRAID adapter, and oh I can't install with a 2.2
> > kernel, since there are no DAC960 drivers in any of the boot disks!
>
> Bullshit.  The compact flavour has the DAC960 driver.

Thank you, for the information
How do I install the system with reiserfs?

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 Sincerely
 Jørgen Hermanrud Fjeld

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Re: Things we need from sid

[Herbert Xu]

J?rgen Hermanrud Fjeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm running some new quite expensive servers. Dual processor, 1GB RAM, and 
> not to forget a few ultra-fast-wide-narrow,bla.bla scsi-3 disks. And oh, it's 
> the Mylex AcceleRAID adapter, and oh I can't install with a 2.2 kernel, since 
> there are no DAC960 drivers in any of the boot disks!

Bullshit.  The compact flavour has the DAC960 driver.
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Email:  Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Things we need from sid

[Jørgen Hermanrud Fjeld]

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On Thursday 24 January 2002 09:59, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would be happy to do so if someone can show me why we really need 2.4
> boot floppies on i386.  So far, the only reasons I've seen are:
>
> 1. Support for new hardware.
>
> Without initrd, you can include only so many hardware drivers.  And for all
> of the important drivers that I can think of (such as NetGear FA311TX,
> AICRAID, Promise Ultra IDE etc.), the support is already in at least one of
> the latest 2.2 images anyway.

I'm running some new quite expensive servers. Dual processor, 1GB RAM, and 
not to forget a few ultra-fast-wide-narrow,bla.bla scsi-3 disks. And oh, it's 
the Mylex AcceleRAID adapter, and oh I can't install with a 2.2 kernel, since 
there are no DAC960 drivers in any of the boot disks!

Thus I have downloaded and build my own custom kernel, given boot-floppies 
and debootstrap a good look, and build my own installation CD for these 
machines. Because I really want to run Debian.

So far so good. But I installed Mandrake 8.0 on the first server I got. I 
needed something running fast, and didn't have time to do this work then.

8 MONTHS later, having had the time, I have reinnstalled with Debian and my 
own handmade CD. 

If you would include an optional boot/installation cd with kernel 2.4, using 
initrd to support DAC960 and USB, I will sing with joy!

I would rather help someone have a viable alternative boot/installation disk 
with 2.4, than do such things alone.

And I'm looking forward to telling other people who know windows 2000 server, 
that installing debian isn't that hard. They just need to make diskettes, buy 
a book about basic Linux, and off they go!

Right now I give them CD's with Mandrake 8.1, as I didn't have time to make
many flavoured kernels, or set up 2.4 with every module, and an initrd to 
load them at boot.

I really look forward to having the possibility of using kernel 2.4 while 
installing from some pre-debian-made diskettes/cdrom.


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 Jørgen Hermanrud Fjeld

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Re: Things we need from sid

[Gordon Tyler]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 12:37:21PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 07:59:52PM +1100, Herbert Xu wrote:
> > I would be happy to do so if someone can show me why we really need 2.4
> > boot floppies on i386.  So far, the only reasons I've seen are:
> > 1. Support for new hardware.

Not only support for new hardware, but fixes for hardware that should work
in the first place. Like a PS/2 keyboard on a relatively new motherboard.
It works in 2.4 but not 2.2, thus making it impossible (for a the normal
user) to install Debian on a normal (although new) machine configuration.

Ciao,
GOrdon


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Re: Things we need from sid

[Anthony Towns]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 07:59:52PM +1100, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> kernel-image-2.4.17-bf2.4
> >> pcmcia-modules-2.4.17-bf2.4
> > So are these an official part of boot-floppies? Should they be being
> > (co?)maintained by Herbert to keep them in sync with the other kernels?
> I would be happy to do so if someone can show me why we really need 2.4
> boot floppies on i386.  So far, the only reasons I've seen are:
> 1. Support for new hardware.
> 2. Support for ext3/reiserfs.

The main part about using 2.4 for this rather than 2.2+patches is just
that: it's "better" to use an integrated kernel than maintaining our
own patches if we can. RAID is also one of the things you can only do
with this flavour (and the flavours it's meant to replace). Is there any
particular reason to prefer the 2.2+patches flavours if the 2.4 flavour
is working?

> 3. Better support for auxiliary hardware such as sound cards.

4. Avoiding people whining about how Debian still lives in the dark ages
   by only shipping a 2.2 kernel.

Yes, I realise these people are wrong on a number of counts (2.4 isn't
really stable enough for us, for a start; and that there's a huge
difference between not installing it by default and not shipping it),
but it'll still probably be the number one complaint if we don't have
a 2.4 b-f's flavour.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

The daffodils are coming. Are you?
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Re: Things we need from sid

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
Herbert Xu wrote on Fri Jan 25, 2002 um 08:42:47AM:

> > kernel-image-2.4.x series for unuseable for most people. YOU KNOW THIS.
> > Manoj tries to do the best job - he often fixed the bugs quickly when I
> > reported something (and you often ignored this fixes). 
> 
> More FUD.

I know, all arguments not agreed by you count as FUD.

> b) is absolutely unnecessary unless you've been listening to
> Eduard Bloch and have put crap into it.

I forgot to delete this - in the moment, I just remembered that the user
will still fail to change to ext3 (putting "auto" in fstab as described
in howtos), since you refused to apply my patch from #126889 and closed
the report instead. Good work.

> c) is something that has to be done anyway.

Sooner or later. Definitely later when installing Debian with a working 2.4 kernel.

> IMHO the current preinst/postinst scripts already handle it
> satisfactorily.

You know that this is a critical point and can cause
much frustration if something goes wrong. And it can go wrong.

> And the current release of 2.4.17 has no known initrd bugs.

I hope so.

> > Go and install with floppy disks, or fetch the packages with an
> > osziloscope and a hex editor. Have fun.
> I'd like to see you put the base system on floppies...

Yeah, remove your previous statement and make this sentence appear in
the wrong light...

> > > As long as the one in 2.2 works to the extent that an installation can
> > > be done, this is irrelevant.
> > 
> > How many people do replace the kernel just after the base install?
> 
> Probably quite a few.  Anyway, this is a documentation issue.

So? Then I will tell my impression so far:

I try to:

 - limit number of flavors (getting more space for usefull programs on
   the CDs)
 - replace the patched flavors with a better solution
 - give users more freedom to choose the installation source
 - provide a smooth way for configuring the hardware (see previous mails)

You try to:

 - tell everyone that the new drivers are not needed
 - say that the current solution will be good for everyone, and for the
   next 1-2 years (release cycle), using a kernel which stopped beeing
   developed almost a year ago
 - say that everything is a documentation issue. People should better
   read docs and curse about complicated configuration with Debian
 - force everyone who wants 2.4 to use your, and only your packages

Finally, the new flavor does not cost YOU much. The vanilla installation
disk will still use 2.2.20. bf2.4 kernel package does not require your
to do anything but keeping the kernel-source as bug-free as possible. So
what are we talking about?

> > Count the drivers in 2.4.
> 
> All the important USB network drivers are already in 2.2.20.

Importance changes with the number of sold devices. Having an
installation option with kernel 2.4 is like an investment into the
future compatibility.

Gruss/Regards,
Eduard.
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Re: Things we need from sid

[Herbert Xu]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 09:55:50PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:
>
> > > > A 2.4 kernel is only an apt-get install away so this has no place when
> > > 
> > > Blah. You should know better than me that this is not true.
> > 
> > Please give details.
> 
> Please? You have to a) install, b) change fstab, c) change boot loader's
> configuration. Handling with initrd is more dangerous than a kernel with
> statical configuration. There were bugs in make-kpkg which made
> kernel-image-2.4.x series for unuseable for most people. YOU KNOW THIS.
> Manoj tries to do the best job - he often fixed the bugs quickly when I
> reported something (and you often ignored this fixes). 

More FUD.  b) is absolutely unnecessary unless you've been listening to
Eduard Bloch and have put crap into it.  c) is something that has to be
done anyway.  IMHO the current preinst/postinst scripts already handle it
satisfactorily.

And the current release of 2.4.17 has no known initrd bugs.

> Go and install with floppy disks, or fetch the packages with an
> osziloscope and a hex editor. Have fun.

I'd like to see you put the base system on floppies...

> > It's funny that you raise tulip, because the tulip driver in 2.2 in fact
> > works much better than the one in 2.4.
> 
> Really funny. Once I removed the tulip patch from the
> kernel-patch-ethernet-drivers package, I got a request to readd it.

That's Donald Becker's driver, something completely different and it
doesn't work in 2.4 anyway.

> > As long as the one in 2.2 works to the extent that an installation can
> > be done, this is irrelevant.
> 
> How many people do replace the kernel just after the base install?

Probably quite a few.  Anyway, this is a documentation issue.
 
> > >  - newer USB network hardware is not supported by 2.2.20. Same for other
> > >possible installation media.
> > 
> > Like what?
> 
> Count the drivers in 2.4.

All the important USB network drivers are already in 2.2.20.
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Re: Things we need from sid

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 08:42:29PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:

> Not providing an Ext3 option as-default would damage Debian's reputation.

If we are worried about reputations, the best thing to do is to get a
release out the door with updated versions of common user packages.  Users
who want a release that they can install and use are much more numerous than
users who cannot convert to ext3 post-install.

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Re: Things we need from sid

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
Herbert Xu wrote on Fri Jan 25, 2002 um 07:25:13AM:

> >  - This are patches
> >  - ide patched kernel is reported to hang on some new chipsets while IDE
> >detection
> 
> Please give specific details rather than vague recollections.

Both people were newbies - and how should a newbie report something if
he cannot install Debian?

> > 2.4 uses reiserfs-3.6 as default, 2.2.20 does not (and apparently will
> > never) support it. Imagine someone downloads the Debian stuff to a
> > ReiserFS partition under SuSE/RedHat (where reiserfs-3.6 has been used
> > for epochs) and tries to mount it.
> 
> Please recall that we're discussing boot floppies here so existing file
> systems do not matter.

If you cannot access the installation source, it does matter.

> > > Ext3 does not need boot floppies support.  Conversion after installation
> > > of a 2.4 kernel is trivial.
> > 
> > Not providing an Ext3 option as-default would damage Debian's reputation.
> 
> FUD.

Your opinion. Many people have another one.

> > > A 2.4 kernel is only an apt-get install away so this has no place when
> > 
> > Blah. You should know better than me that this is not true.
> 
> Please give details.

Please? You have to a) install, b) change fstab, c) change boot loader's
configuration. Handling with initrd is more dangerous than a kernel with
statical configuration. There were bugs in make-kpkg which made
kernel-image-2.4.x series for unuseable for most people. YOU KNOW THIS.
Manoj tries to do the best job - he often fixed the bugs quickly when I
reported something (and you often ignored this fixes). 

> >  - working Plug-and-Play. As someone in the list allready reported, we
> >allways have a problem with isapnp cards. Do you want a clueless
> >user to change to a second console and work with pnpdump and isapnp
> >just to make the damn thing work?
> 
> Not required for installation.

Go and install with floppy disks, or fetch the packages with an
osziloscope and a hex editor. Have fun.

> >  - network cards. You did include the natsemi driver - wow. But what
> >about many other cards and new releases (such as for Tulip cards),
> >which are not supported by 2.2.x?
> 
> It's funny that you raise tulip, because the tulip driver in 2.2 in fact
> works much better than the one in 2.4.

Really funny. Once I removed the tulip patch from the
kernel-patch-ethernet-drivers package, I got a request to readd it.

> >  - new ide chipsets. 2.4 has more and and much stable drivers.
> 
> As long as the one in 2.2 works to the extent that an installation can
> be done, this is irrelevant.

How many people do replace the kernel just after the base install?

> >  - newer ISDN drivers. People installing with a (often sold) Fritc-PCIv2
> >card would "thank" us for using kernel-2.2.x.
> 
> Irrelevant for an installation.

Everything that can fetch data from a public source is relevant for the
installation.

> >  - newer USB network hardware is not supported by 2.2.20. Same for other
> >possible installation media.
> 
> Like what?

Count the drivers in 2.4.

Gruss/Regards,
Eduard.
-- 
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Retry, Reboot, Reinstall .
 (Joerg Schilling)


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Re: Things we need from sid

[John H. Robinson, IV]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 07:25:13AM +1100, Herbert Xu wrote:
> > > 
> > > IMHO reiserfs simply isn't viable anymore.  So I don't really care

please explain - how is it ``not viable anymore''? replaced by ext3? the
only thing ext3 has is journalling. reiserfs brings a lot more to the
table than simply journalling.

> > 2.4 uses reiserfs-3.6 as default, 2.2.20 does not (and apparently will
> > never) support it. Imagine someone downloads the Debian stuff to a
> > ReiserFS partition under SuSE/RedHat (where reiserfs-3.6 has been used
> > for epochs) and tries to mount it.
> 
> Please recall that we're discussing boot floppies here so existing file
> systems do not matter.

not true. the basedebs.tgz could have been downloaded by the SuSE
alt-boot reiserfs partition. /usr/local could be shared between the
Debian and Red Hat boots, which could easily be reiserfs.

this is not a non-issue, but a real and valid one.

the latter can be worked around by upgrading the kernel to 2.4.x
after the install, then adding the /usr/local to fstab. the
former cold only be worked around by putting the basedebs.tgz on
a non-reiser partition. the same issue faced by those using xfs.

-john

disclaimer: i happily run 2.2.20.


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Re: Things we need from sid

[Herbert Xu]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 08:42:29PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:
>
> > Without initrd, you can include only so many hardware drivers.  And for all
> > of the important drivers that I can think of (such as NetGear FA311TX,
> > AICRAID, Promise Ultra IDE etc.), the support is already in at least one of
> > the latest 2.2 images anyway.
> 
>  - This are patches
>  - ide patched kernel is reported to hang on some new chipsets while IDE
>detection

Please give specific details rather than vague recollections.

> > 2. Support for ext3/reiserfs.
> > 
> > IMHO reiserfs simply isn't viable anymore.  So I don't really care
> 
> 2.4 uses reiserfs-3.6 as default, 2.2.20 does not (and apparently will
> never) support it. Imagine someone downloads the Debian stuff to a
> ReiserFS partition under SuSE/RedHat (where reiserfs-3.6 has been used
> for epochs) and tries to mount it.

Please recall that we're discussing boot floppies here so existing file
systems do not matter.

> > Ext3 does not need boot floppies support.  Conversion after installation
> > of a 2.4 kernel is trivial.
> 
> Not providing an Ext3 option as-default would damage Debian's reputation.

FUD.

> > 3. Better support for auxiliary hardware such as sound cards.
> > 
> > A 2.4 kernel is only an apt-get install away so this has no place when
> 
> Blah. You should know better than me that this is not true.

Please give details.


> > If there is another important reason for a 2.4 kernel, please let me know.
> 
> As you wish:
> 
>  - the 64MB detection limit, AFAIK this has been fixed in 2.4

No this was first fixed in 2.2.

>  - working Plug-and-Play. As someone in the list allready reported, we
>allways have a problem with isapnp cards. Do you want a clueless
>user to change to a second console and work with pnpdump and isapnp
>just to make the damn thing work?

Not required for installation.

>  - network cards. You did include the natsemi driver - wow. But what
>about many other cards and new releases (such as for Tulip cards),
>which are not supported by 2.2.x?

It's funny that you raise tulip, because the tulip driver in 2.2 in fact
works much better than the one in 2.4.

>  - new ide chipsets. 2.4 has more and and much stable drivers.

As long as the one in 2.2 works to the extent that an installation can
be done, this is irrelevant.

>  - newer ISDN drivers. People installing with a (often sold) Fritc-PCIv2
>card would "thank" us for using kernel-2.2.x.

Irrelevant for an installation.

>  - newer USB network hardware is not supported by 2.2.20. Same for other
>possible installation media.

Like what?
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Re: Things we need from sid

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
Herbert Xu wrote on Thu Jan 24, 2002 um 07:59:52PM:

> > So are these an official part of boot-floppies? Should they be being
> > (co?)maintained by Herbert to keep them in sync with the other kernels?

No. I allow to update the package and NMU if I do not respond for >=2
days, but Herbert should keep his hands of it.

> I would be happy to do so if someone can show me why we really need 2.4

I can imagine that you will do, but then I worry about the future
of the package.

> Without initrd, you can include only so many hardware drivers.  And for all
> of the important drivers that I can think of (such as NetGear FA311TX,
> AICRAID, Promise Ultra IDE etc.), the support is already in at least one of
> the latest 2.2 images anyway.

 - This are patches
 - ide patched kernel is reported to hang on some new chipsets while IDE
   detection

> 2. Support for ext3/reiserfs.
> 
> IMHO reiserfs simply isn't viable anymore.  So I don't really care

2.4 uses reiserfs-3.6 as default, 2.2.20 does not (and apparently will
never) support it. Imagine someone downloads the Debian stuff to a
ReiserFS partition under SuSE/RedHat (where reiserfs-3.6 has been used
for epochs) and tries to mount it.

> Ext3 does not need boot floppies support.  Conversion after installation
> of a 2.4 kernel is trivial.

Not providing an Ext3 option as-default would damage Debian's reputation.

> 3. Better support for auxiliary hardware such as sound cards.
> 
> A 2.4 kernel is only an apt-get install away so this has no place when

Blah. You should know better than me that this is not true.

> If there is another important reason for a 2.4 kernel, please let me know.

As you wish:

 - the 64MB detection limit, AFAIK this has been fixed in 2.4
 - working Plug-and-Play. As someone in the list allready reported, we
   allways have a problem with isapnp cards. Do you want a clueless
   user to change to a second console and work with pnpdump and isapnp
   just to make the damn thing work?
 - network cards. You did include the natsemi driver - wow. But what
   about many other cards and new releases (such as for Tulip cards),
   which are not supported by 2.2.x?
 - new ide chipsets. 2.4 has more and and much stable drivers.
 - newer ISDN drivers. People installing with a (often sold) Fritc-PCIv2
   card would "thank" us for using kernel-2.2.x.
 - newer USB network hardware is not supported by 2.2.20. Same for other
   possible installation media.

Gruss/Regards,
Eduard.
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Re: Things we need from sid

[Chris Halls]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 07:59:52PM +1100, Herbert Xu wrote:
> I would be happy to do so if someone can show me why we really need 2.4
> boot floppies on i386.  So far, the only reasons I've seen are:
[...]

4. Better network card autodetection support

Its network card was an ISA NE2000 clone.  Using the 2.2 kernel, I could not
tell where the card was configured at, and eventually found a DOS utility
that told me, once I'd got hold of a DOS boot disk.  The 2.4 kernel was
capable of detecting and configuring the card for me without needing any
parameters.  Giving newbies a chance to configure their netcard under 2.4 is
IMO, a big advantage for non-PCI cards.

Chris
-- 
Chris Halls | Frankfurt, Germany



msg15076/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Things we need from sid

[Herbert Xu]

Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> kernel-image-2.4.17-bf2.4
>> pcmcia-modules-2.4.17-bf2.4

> So are these an official part of boot-floppies? Should they be being
> (co?)maintained by Herbert to keep them in sync with the other kernels?

I would be happy to do so if someone can show me why we really need 2.4
boot floppies on i386.  So far, the only reasons I've seen are:

1. Support for new hardware.

Without initrd, you can include only so many hardware drivers.  And for all
of the important drivers that I can think of (such as NetGear FA311TX,
AICRAID, Promise Ultra IDE etc.), the support is already in at least one of
the latest 2.2 images anyway.

2. Support for ext3/reiserfs.

IMHO reiserfs simply isn't viable anymore.  So I don't really care
about whether we support it or not.  In any case, there is a 2.2 flavour
available.

Ext3 does not need boot floppies support.  Conversion after installation
of a 2.4 kernel is trivial.

3. Better support for auxiliary hardware such as sound cards.

A 2.4 kernel is only an apt-get install away so this has no place when
we are talking about boot floppies.

If there is another important reason for a 2.4 kernel, please let me know.

Otherwise IMHO this really is unnecessary.
-- 
Debian GNU/Linux 2.2 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email:  Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt


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Re: Things we need from sid

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 01:59:10AM +0100, Marcin Owsiany wrote:
> Here's the list of packages we need from woody to _build_ successfully.
> Probably more are needed to make the resulting b-f work correctly.
> 
> kernel-image-2.4.17-bf2.4
> pcmcia-modules-2.4.17-bf2.4

So are these an official part of boot-floppies? Should they be being
(co?)maintained by Herbert to keep them in sync with the other kernels?

> debootstrap

debootstrap | 0.1.16 |   testing | source, alpha, arm, hppa, i386, ia64, m68k, 
mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, sparc

> pcmcia-modules-2.2.20* packages
> pcmcia-cs (library reduction fails with 3.1.22-0.1potato)

These need to be built properly on various arches. Hrm. I guess the out of
date i386 ones (-2.4.14-i386, -2.4.13-386 and -2.2.0-ext3) aren't needed.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

The daffodils are coming. Are you?
  linux.conf.au, February 2002, Brisbane, Australia
--- http://linux.conf.au/


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