Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 08:42:00PM +0100, Steven Chamberlain wrote: On 02/06/13 20:27, Hendrik Boom wrote: If someone wants to have gnome or KDE anyway, he's can acquire a second CD, or access the net after installing packages from the first CD, or use a DVD or USB key or something bigger. That's an interesting idea... if CD-1 was XFCE, would it contain enough of the common/base packages that only one additional CD is needed to complete either a GNOME or a KDE desktop? Which additional CD you would need anyway for GNME and KDE. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130603134859.ga24...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Fri 31 May 2013 at 15:11:50 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org (31/05/2013): It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. A somewhat related question is whether we're going to keep trying to fit stuff onto CD#1, as opposed to moving to supporting various “USB key sizes”. If I'm not mistaken, Steve has expressed such a wish (or intent) during the last wheezy preparation steps. As a point of reference, I still have (and use every now and then) an old laptop that has a cd-rom but no dvd-rom, and its bios does not support usb booting. I have two desktops and a laptop (not all that old, five years) which do not entertain booting from USB. So you learn to be resourceful. For Debian we have the hd-media kernel and initrd. grub-mkrescue will make an iso with them and include a grub.cfg. iso-scan will find whatever ISO you choose to put on another USB stick. I hope Debian will continue to support those of us have such 'ancient' machines. Eventually, we are going to run out of ideas or patience with fitting a useful GNOME, KDE etc on CD#1. Its a lost battle. This is the time for innovation. Get it discussed and decided now and not two or three months before the next release. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130602183635.GB26394@desktop
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Sun 02 Jun 2013 at 19:36:35 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: For Debian we have the hd-media kernel and initrd. grub-mkrescue will make an iso with them and include a grub.cfg. iso-scan will find whatever ISO you choose to put on another USB stick. I hope Debian will continue to support those of us have such 'ancient' machines. And because it wasn't very clear: I was referring to burning the ISO made by GRUB to a CD and having iso-scan picking up whatever other Debian ISO is on a provided USB stick. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130602185558.GC26394@desktop
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Sun, 2013-06-02 at 19:36 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: On Fri 31 May 2013 at 15:11:50 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org (31/05/2013): It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. A somewhat related question is whether we're going to keep trying to fit stuff onto CD#1, as opposed to moving to supporting various “USB key sizes”. If I'm not mistaken, Steve has expressed such a wish (or intent) during the last wheezy preparation steps. As a point of reference, I still have (and use every now and then) an old laptop that has a cd-rom but no dvd-rom, and its bios does not support usb booting. I have two desktops and a laptop (not all that old, five years) which do not entertain booting from USB. So you learn to be resourceful. For Debian we have the hd-media kernel and initrd. grub-mkrescue will make an iso with them and include a grub.cfg. iso-scan will find whatever ISO you choose to put on another USB stick. I hope Debian will continue to support those of us have such 'ancient' machines. [...] Booting from USB has been a standard feature for ~10 years; see e.g. http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/wiki/usb_booting.html#BIOS_Limitations. So those machines may not be ancient but they apparently have a crap BIOS. While we should probably continue to support 5 year old machines in general, I don't see why the default installation media should be held back by specific BIOS defects. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings You can't have everything. Where would you put it? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 07:36:35PM +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: On Fri 31 May 2013 at 15:11:50 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org (31/05/2013): It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. A somewhat related question is whether we're going to keep trying to fit stuff onto CD#1, as opposed to moving to supporting various “USB key sizes”. If I'm not mistaken, Steve has expressed such a wish (or intent) during the last wheezy preparation steps. As a point of reference, I still have (and use every now and then) an old laptop that has a cd-rom but no dvd-rom, and its bios does not support usb booting. I have two desktops and a laptop (not all that old, five years) which do not entertain booting from USB. So you learn to be resourceful. For Debian we have the hd-media kernel and initrd. grub-mkrescue will make an iso with them and include a grub.cfg. iso-scan will find whatever ISO you choose to put on another USB stick. I hope Debian will continue to support those of us have such 'ancient' machines. Eventually, we are going to run out of ideas or patience with fitting a useful GNOME, KDE etc on CD#1. Its a lost battle. This is the time for innovation. Get it discussed and decided now and not two or three months before the next release. If gnome or KDE doesn't fit on the first CD, it makes no sense to pretend it does. Put something that *does* fit on the first CD. It's perfectly possible to put the packages for a viable Linux system on a single CD, but you'd need a desktop that takes less CD space. If someone wants to have gnome or KDE anyway, he's can acquire a second CD, or access the net after installing packages from the first CD, or use a DVD or USB key or something bigger. I'm not in favour of software bloat. Let those who are use the second CD or another installation medium. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130602192745.ga20...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On 02/06/13 20:27, Hendrik Boom wrote: If someone wants to have gnome or KDE anyway, he's can acquire a second CD, or access the net after installing packages from the first CD, or use a DVD or USB key or something bigger. That's an interesting idea... if CD-1 was XFCE, would it contain enough of the common/base packages that only one additional CD is needed to complete either a GNOME or a KDE desktop? Regards, -- Steven Chamberlain ste...@pyro.eu.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51aba008.7010...@pyro.eu.org
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Sun 02 Jun 2013 at 20:11:48 +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: Booting from USB has been a standard feature for ~10 years; see e.g. http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/wiki/usb_booting.html#BIOS_Limitations. So those machines may not be ancient but they apparently have a crap BIOS. While we should probably continue to support 5 year old machines in general, I don't see why the default installation media should be held back by specific BIOS defects. Yes, three crap BIOSs. The one on the laptop doesn't even offer to boot from USB. The desktops do, but don't. All within your ~10 years range. And no, I do not expect or want Debian to be held back by these deficiencies. One of my points was that I cope with the situation within Debian (via hd-media, for example) and that it doesn't present a big problem at present. Although I did not want to get thoroughly involved in it, my other point was that a CD's size cannot be expanded but that of a USB device can be adjusted by choosing the device. Do we want to be held back by the constraints imposed by the capacity of a shiny disk? Not that I am advocating abandoning CDs in Debian, but surely we must alter focus. Either that or we continue, as we did during the Wheezy cycle, to devote more and more effort into maintaining the status quo. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130602213749.GD26394@desktop
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org writes: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org (31/05/2013): It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. A somewhat related question is whether we're going to keep trying to fit stuff onto CD#1, as opposed to moving to supporting various “USB key sizes”. If I'm not mistaken, Steve has expressed such a wish (or intent) during the last wheezy preparation steps. As a point of reference, I still have (and use every now and then) an old laptop that has a cd-rom but no dvd-rom, and its bios does not support usb booting. You could still use the netinst image on this machine. There is currently no danger that it's content won't fit onto a CD-ROM and AFAIK there is no intention to drop this image. It needs a working network connection to install a full desktop though, but IMO this acceptable for these rare cases. Gaudenz -- Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. ~ Samuel Beckett ~ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87mwra9o01@meteor.durcheinandertal.bofh
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
Hi, I don't think this needs to be taken as a 'change of default desktop', just rather a change in how install media are offered. On 31/05/13 19:56, Michael Gilbert wrote: Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), [...] If someone is to download just one CD, it seems better that they get a complete XFCE system out of it, rather than an incomplete GNOME system (we had to force network-manager onto Wheezy CD-1 for example). If changing the 'default' in tasksel is the best way to accomplish that, it still doesn't prevent us from promoting (USB-capable) GNOME DVDs as equally or more-preferred media for offline installs. start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, [...] Yes, for low-bandwidth, or old-system-supporting-only-CD-media use cases, someone may download CD-1 or a netinst CD only; in either case I think XFCE is a more sensible default than GNOME because of smaller size (with presumably smaller size of stable and security updates too), and AFAICT lower memory/CPU/diskspace requirements. p.s. regarding the relative popularity of desktops, I wonder if the selection of (meta)packages on this graph gives a fair comparison? http://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=gnome-shell+plasma-desktop+xfce4+lxde-coreshow_installed=onwant_legend=onwant_ticks=onfrom_date=to_date=hlght_date=date_fmt=%25Y-%25mbeenhere=1 Regards, -- Steven Chamberlain ste...@pyro.eu.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51aa5054.2070...@pyro.eu.org
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:44 AM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: There's no final decision, it simply never was discussed at all. It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MPBNrMbx0h+d-m=avjrswrrzu7xyeapgg1fe9fq6n7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org (31/05/2013): It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. A somewhat related question is whether we're going to keep trying to fit stuff onto CD#1, as opposed to moving to supporting various “USB key sizes”. If I'm not mistaken, Steve has expressed such a wish (or intent) during the last wheezy preparation steps. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org (31/05/2013): It would probably be good to get that discussion started early during this cycle to reduce the surprise factor. Since it was rather difficult to fit gnome onto 1 cd in wheezy (and I think some pieces were left off anyway), I think it makes sense now to start moving toward something like xfce as the default that's small, and mostly capable, and 4.10 (now making its way into unstable) brings much needed accessibility features. A somewhat related question is whether we're going to keep trying to fit stuff onto CD#1, as opposed to moving to supporting various “USB key sizes”. If I'm not mistaken, Steve has expressed such a wish (or intent) during the last wheezy preparation steps. As a point of reference, I still have (and use every now and then) an old laptop that has a cd-rom but no dvd-rom, and its bios does not support usb booting. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=mnypyhyb_htg5jgjh5mneiekbrfaybszysx-uodt8d...@mail.gmail.com
Re: task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
Bob Bib bobbib...@mail.ru (30/05/2013): Did you finally reject that Xfce-by-default commit: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commit;h=2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08 or is it simply lost in series of disabling / enabling / reverting commits? There's no final decision, it simply never was discussed at all. As for reverting reverts for each upload, that was IMHO pointless, and IME error-prone (since some revert ended up being partial anyway), so Christian was asked to stop doing the revert dance. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
task-desktop: default desktop environment for Jessie
Hi Debian Install System Team members, I just wonder what desktop environment will be chosen as a default for Debian Jessie. As for now, it's still GNOME 3. Did you finally reject that Xfce-by-default commit: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commit;h=2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08 or is it simply lost in series of disabling / enabling / reverting commits? Best wishes, Bob
