Re: Some questions about the port
Hi, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > >> About the topic "Why not a BSD libc?" he wrote: "Adapting the libc to > >> the kernel is way less work than patching thousands of packages to work > >> with another libc, too." > >> > >> I wonder why that is so complicate. As far as I know FreeBSD offers > >> many of our packages, too. So wouldn't it has been possible to take > >> some of their patches? Or do you just thought, it would be easier for > >> Debian to patch the libc, instead of getting several thousand packages > >> patched by their respectice maintainers? > > > >I think, it's just the last thing. I'm just not sure if this counts as > >much as it did years ago (2001/2002) when Debian GNU/FreeBSD failed > >and one of the reasons was the BSD libc to my knowledge. > > Yes, but FreeBSD comes with a base system, whereas Debian comes > with a bunch of GNU packages. That doesn't look like a reason for me. > The FSF likes to do Vendor lock-in, I wouldn't call it that way. But I don't want to have a license philosophy discussion here and now. I'm quite happy that Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is quite free of them. > and you have a bazaar of developers Yeah, very positive, that! ;-) > not looking past the corner of their own table. Some of them possibly, but surely not all. And btw., you could say that from a lot of BSD people, too. :-) > Furthermore, things such as the shared library system work different > between, for example, GNU (Linux, kFreeBSD, Hurd), FreeBSD, Solaris, > OpenBSD, MirBSD even has a subtly different one... and things like > dh_* and dpkg-* depend heavily on the interna of those. This is but > one example. Now that's a reason! Thanks for that explanation. Feel free to add that part of your mail to the Debian GNU/kFreeBSD FAQ in the wiki. If not, I'll probably add it somewhen in the future. > So, porting the Debian system to a different OS/kernel is really > only feasible using (e)glibc, as sad as that is. One man's joy is another man's sorrow. [German: Des einen Freud ist des anderen Leid.] (SCNR) Regards, Axel -- ,''`. | Axel Beckert , http://people.debian.org/~abe/ : :' : | Debian Developer, ftp.ch.debian.org Admin `. `' | 1024D: F067 EA27 26B9 C3FC 1486 202E C09E 1D89 9593 0EDE `-| 4096R: 2517 B724 C5F6 CA99 5329 6E61 2FF9 CD59 6126 16B5 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bsd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100302015831.ge1...@sym.noone.org
Re: Some questions about the port
On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:53, t...@mirbsd.de said: > with a bunch of GNU packages. The FSF likes to do Vendor lock-in, That is somewhat unfair. For one you can't speak of vendor lock-in in a FS project, second and more important is that glibc is the core of GNU (the OS) and third glibc is very much POSIX compliant. POSIX is actually the rule for all GNU hackers. Agreed, too many hackers know only GNU/Linux and have no clue that there are other POSIX OS in our world. Worse, some seem even not to know what POSIX is and use neglect to use a well defined POSIX API and favor something Linux specific. Ask the Hurd hackers how much trouble they had way back when they ported most of the Debian packages to GNU - and that was with glibc. Salam-Shalom, Werner -- Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bsd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87bpf7zxuf@vigenere.g10code.de
Re: Some questions about the port
Axel Beckert dixit: >> About the topic "Why not a BSD libc?" he wrote: "Adapting the libc to >> the kernel is way less work than patching thousands of packages to work >> with another libc, too." >> >> I wonder why that is so complicate. As far as I know FreeBSD offers >> many of our packages, too. So wouldn't it has been possible to take >> some of their patches? Or do you just thought, it would be easier for >> Debian to patch the libc, instead of getting several thousand packages >> patched by their respectice maintainers? > >I think, it's just the last thing. I'm just not sure if this counts as >much as it did years ago (2001/2002) when Debian GNU/FreeBSD failed >and one of the reasons was the BSD libc to my knowledge. Yes, but FreeBSD comes with a base system, whereas Debian comes with a bunch of GNU packages. The FSF likes to do Vendor lock-in, and you have a bazaar of developers not looking past the corner of their own table. Furthermore, things such as the shared library system work different between, for example, GNU (Linux, kFreeBSD, Hurd), FreeBSD, Solaris, OpenBSD, MirBSD even has a subtly different one... and things like dh_* and dpkg-* depend heavily on the interna of those. This is but one example. So, porting the Debian system to a different OS/kernel is really only feasible using (e)glibc, as sad as that is. bye, //mirabilos -- FWIW, I'm quite impressed with mksh interactively. I thought it was much *much* more bare bones. But it turns out it beats the living hell out of ksh93 in that respect. I'd even consider it for my daily use if I hadn't wasted half my life on my zsh setup. :-) -- Frank Terbeck in #!/bin/mksh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bsd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsm.4.64l.1003011751180.7...@herc.mirbsd.org
Re: Some more questions from my kFreeBSD talk at FOSDEM
Axel Beckert wrote: > Will add these questions and answers to the wiki either later this > afternoon or late this evening since I give a kfreebsd talk at our LUG > this evening. So I'm quite happy that I can add the answers to these > questions already to the slides for this evening. :-) Ok, took slightly longer. They're online now in the FAQ. Including Tolimar's question on IRC today how to boot into single user mode. Regards, Axel -- ,''`. | Axel Beckert , http://people.debian.org/~abe/ : :' : | Debian Developer, ftp.ch.debian.org Admin `. `' | 1024D: F067 EA27 26B9 C3FC 1486 202E C09E 1D89 9593 0EDE `-| 4096R: 2517 B724 C5F6 CA99 5329 6E61 2FF9 CD59 6126 16B5 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bsd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100301173829.gc1...@sym.noone.org
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Re: Some questions about the port
Hi, Alexander Schmehl wrote: > While looking through Axel's slides (adopting them for the CeBIT talks), > I came up with some questions he couldn't easily answer. So I ask them > here; hopefully someone can give me easy enough answers so that I > understand them ;) Some of them I asked already myself, but had some half-answers I couldn't verify yet. So I'm happy to hear the answers, too, also because I will hold this talk a few times again. > About the topic "Why not a BSD libc?" he wrote: "Adapting the libc to > the kernel is way less work than patching thousands of packages to work > with another libc, too." > > I wonder why that is so complicate. As far as I know FreeBSD offers > many of our packages, too. So wouldn't it has been possible to take > some of their patches? Or do you just thought, it would be easier for > Debian to patch the libc, instead of getting several thousand packages > patched by their respectice maintainers? I think, it's just the last thing. I'm just not sure if this counts as much as it did years ago (2001/2002) when Debian GNU/FreeBSD failed and one of the reasons was the BSD libc to my knowledge. > And last not least: What is moused (listed as "less important > FreeBSD-specific tool"). You didn't ask me that one, did you? :-) It's the FreeBSD equivalent of gpm: Using the mouse on the text console. (Except that it's not a red rectangular text-mode cursor but a real arrow in some kind of graphic mode over the text-mode of the console.) > Regards, Axel -- ,''`. | Axel Beckert , http://people.debian.org/~abe/ : :' : | Debian Developer, ftp.ch.debian.org Admin `. `' | 1024D: F067 EA27 26B9 C3FC 1486 202E C09E 1D89 9593 0EDE `-| 4096R: 2517 B724 C5F6 CA99 5329 6E61 2FF9 CD59 6126 16B5 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bsd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100301152640.gb1...@sym.noone.org
Some questions about the port
Hi! While looking through Axel's slides (adopting them for the CeBIT talks), I came up with some questions he couldn't easily answer. So I ask them here; hopefully someone can give me easy enough answers so that I understand them ;) About the topic "Why not a BSD libc?" he wrote: "Adapting the libc to the kernel is way less work than patching thousands of packages to work with another libc, too." I wonder why that is so complicate. As far as I know FreeBSD offers many of our packages, too. So wouldn't it has been possible to take some of their patches? Or do you just thought, it would be easier for Debian to patch the libc, instead of getting several thousand packages patched by their respectice maintainers? In "GNU/kFreeBSD compared with Linux has" he mentions jails. May I therefore assume, that they already work in Debian GNU/kFreeBSD? He also mentiones "no non-DFSG-compliant binary-only drivers in the kernel". Is there something similar to the "load firmwares on request and ship them in a package in non-free" approach? And last not least: What is moused (listed as "less important FreeBSD-specific tool"). Are there other less important FreeBSD-specific tools, I should know about / might be asked about? Best regards, Alexander -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bsd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b8bdb25.5010...@schmehl.info
