Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
On Wednesday 02 February 2005 03:09, Christopher Martin wrote: On February 1, 2005 18:23, Michail Bachmann wrote: The dependency on ppp changed from Recommends in 3.3.1-2 to Depends in 3.3.2-1. Since KDE ist perfectly useable on a LAN without ppp I dont understand the reason for changing this dependency. If you're on a LAN, why are you using kppp? It would be helpful if you could explain your situation in more detail. Because unfortunately there is a dependency relation which leads to kppp: kde-kdenetwork-kppp. Maybe it would be better if kdenetwork would only recommend kppp and not depend on it, but I can see a rationale in that decision, kdenetwork being a metapackage and used by different kind of users. However I can not see the rationale in raising the dependency on ppp from Recommends to Depends. If you are a new user, you would use some frontend like aptitude to install kppp, so the Recommends dependency is strong enough and ppp will be installed. On the other hand a more advanced user still can ignore the recommendation if he knows he did not need it on his system. Changing the dependency does not improve the comfort using this package to a new user but will inconvenience a more advanced user. HTH, Michail Bachmann -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
* Christopher Martin [Tue, 01 Feb 2005 21:09:42 -0500]: If you're on a LAN, why are you using kppp? It would be helpful if you could explain your situation in more detail. $ apt-get install kde ;-) -- Adeodato Simó EM: asp16 [ykwim] alu.ua.es | PK: DA6AE621 Listening to: Manolo Tena - Tocar madera The reader this message encounters not failing to understand is cursed. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
El Miércoles 02 Febrero 2005 10:04, Michail Bachmann escribió: On Wednesday 02 February 2005 03:09, Christopher Martin wrote: On February 1, 2005 18:23, Michail Bachmann wrote: The dependency on ppp changed from Recommends in 3.3.1-2 to Depends in 3.3.2-1. Since KDE ist perfectly useable on a LAN without ppp I dont understand the reason for changing this dependency. If you're on a LAN, why are you using kppp? It would be helpful if you could explain your situation in more detail. Because unfortunately there is a dependency relation which leads to kppp: kde-kdenetwork-kppp. You install the bazillion packages that kde depends and hesitate about ppp? Maybe it would be better if kdenetwork would only recommend kppp and not depend on it, but I can see a rationale in that decision, kdenetwork being a metapackage and used by different kind of users. That's it, you can make happy everyone. Just make it easy the people who needs it. These are the newbies, or just recent debian users. However I can not see the rationale in raising the dependency on ppp from Recommends to Depends. If you are a new user, you would use some frontend like aptitude to install kppp, so the Recommends dependency is strong enough and ppp will be installed. On the other hand a more advanced user still can ignore the recommendation if he knows he did not need it on his system. If you are a new user you blame kppp and debian for not working because ppp is not installed (and may be you do not know what ppp is). If you are a advanced user you know what a metapackage is and you uninstall it to remove all packages you do not need. I ever think kde metapackages means Give me everything, now!. Advanced users and minimal-installation-droids (as me) usually do not need nor use these big metapackages (ie: kde) Changing the dependency does not improve the comfort using this package to a new user but will inconvenience a more advanced user. Read above. Also the advanced user may understand debian should be firendly with novices. BTW, kppp without ppp is a nice window in your desktop useless.
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
On February 2, 2005 04:04, Michail Bachmann wrote: If you're on a LAN, why are you using kppp? It would be helpful if you could explain your situation in more detail. Because unfortunately there is a dependency relation which leads to kppp: kde-kdenetwork-kppp. OK. Maybe it would be better if kdenetwork would only recommend kppp and not depend on it, but I can see a rationale in that decision, kdenetwork being a metapackage and used by different kind of users. However I can not see the rationale in raising the dependency on ppp from Recommends to Depends. If you are a new user, you would use some frontend like aptitude to install kppp, so the Recommends dependency is strong enough and ppp will be installed. On the other hand a more advanced user still can ignore the recommendation if he knows he did not need it on his system. Changing the dependency does not improve the comfort using this package to a new user but will inconvenience a more advanced user. Believe me, we get a ton of reports from new users whose packages don't work because they didn't install the Recommends. But that's not why I made kppp depend on ppp - I did it because it does depend on ppp. By the rationale you are putting forward, packages depended on by a metapackage should never have any dependencies at all, since of the ~100 packages installed by the kde metapackage, you may only use 20, yet would then be obliged to install un-needed dependencies for the other 80. In short, package dependencies should not be affected the presence of a metapackage. I understand your concern, but the real problem is that metapackages are a crude solution to a general problem. If you don't need one of the packages installed by a metapackage, you could simply uninstall the metapackage. Perhaps, though, a nicer solution would be for the metapackages to only Recommend their packages - that way people could customize their KDE installs without losing the metapackages, which many seem not to want to do. Comments anyone? Chris pgp3VvNopM84X.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
On Wednesday 02 February 2005 13:46, Matías Costa wrote: Maybe it would be better if kdenetwork would only recommend kppp and not depend on it, but I can see a rationale in that decision, kdenetwork being a metapackage and used by different kind of users. That's it, you can make happy everyone. Just make it easy the people who needs it. These are the newbies, or just recent debian users. So there were complaints about kppp only recommending ppp instead of depending on it? Especially since the basic install of Debian already installs ppp and pppoe, your hypothetical newbie must be very cunning and very dumb at the same time. However I can not see the rationale in raising the dependency on ppp from Recommends to Depends. If you are a new user, you would use some frontend like aptitude to install kppp, so the Recommends dependency is strong enough and ppp will be installed. On the other hand a more advanced user still can ignore the recommendation if he knows he did not need it on his system. If you are a new user you blame kppp and debian for not working because ppp is not installed (and may be you do not know what ppp is). How do you get into this state? Ignore everything your package manager of choice says and unselecting the recommended packages? If you are a advanced user you know what a metapackage is and you uninstall it to remove all packages you do not need. I ever think kde metapackages means Give me everything, now!. Exactly, the alternative is to manually go through every single package and consider your need for it. Advanced users and minimal-installation-droids (as me) usually do not need nor use these big metapackages (ie: kde) minimal-installation-droids are not using kde ;-) Changing the dependency does not improve the comfort using this package to a new user but will inconvenience a more advanced user. Read above. Also the advanced user may understand debian should be firendly with novices. You did not answered the question, how making kppp depend on ppp instead of recommending it will increase the new user friendliness of Debian. BTW, kppp without ppp is a nice window in your desktop useless. So what? Do I have to use it? CU Micha
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
* Michail Bachmann [Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:15:51 +0100]: BTW, kppp without ppp is a nice window in your desktop useless. So what? Do I have to use it? You have a point, but: what determines if we put something as Depends or as Recommends is not what will confuse our users less. What determines it is if the dependency is _absolutely_ necessary, or there are some scenarios (though rare) in which it is not necessary. Note that this is what our Policy mandates. kppp has an _absolute_ dependency on ppp (Christopher says so, and he knows better than I), so there you go with the Depends. OTOH, see Bug#289189 for an example where using Depends: would help some people, but it is not done because the dependency is not absolute. You can always have a look at equivs and make a dummy kppp package. -- Adeodato Simó EM: asp16 [ykwim] alu.ua.es | PK: DA6AE621 Algebraic symbols are used when you do not know what you are talking about. -- Philippe Schnoebelen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
On February 2, 2005 08:36, Michail Bachmann wrote: On Wednesday 02 February 2005 14:11, Christopher Martin wrote: Believe me, we get a ton of reports from new users whose packages don't work because they didn't install the Recommends. But that's not why I made kppp depend on ppp - I did it because it does depend on ppp. If I may ask, what was the reason that until now it just recommended it? Maybe I filed the wrong bug for the wrong package version... ;-) Good question. Possibly for the very reason you brought up, though that would not have been correct :) By the rationale you are putting forward, packages depended on by a metapackage should never have any dependencies at all, since of the ~100 packages installed by the kde metapackage, you may only use 20, yet would then be obliged to install un-needed dependencies for the other 80. In short, package dependencies should not be affected the presence of a metapackage. Yes you are right, I just did not thought about it that way. I understand your concern, but the real problem is that metapackages are a crude solution to a general problem. If you don't need one of the packages installed by a metapackage, you could simply uninstall the metapackage. Perhaps, though, a nicer solution would be for the metapackages to only Recommend their packages - that way people could customize their KDE installs without losing the metapackages, which many seem not to want to do. Comments anyone? I like that idea very much. So the metapackages will be just a hint from the maintainers how a reasonable system using them could be set up. That way new users would just follow all recommendations, but advanced users could still configure their system to their needs. Exactly. Current Depends would become Recommends, and the Recommends could become Suggests. Cheers, Christopher Martin pgp7cLLWOjz7P.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
On Wednesday 02 February 2005 15:10, Adeodato Simó wrote: kppp has an _absolute_ dependency on ppp (Christopher says so, and he knows better than I), so there you go with the Depends. OTOH, see Bug#289189 for an example where using Depends: would help some people, but it is not done because the dependency is not absolute. You are right. The problem is not in kppp, it should always have a Depends relation with ppp. But as Christopher Martin already suggested the real solution should be a change in the dependencies of the meta-packages. This way all kind of users could use the meta-packages without any trouble. You can always have a look at equivs and make a dummy kppp package. Or even better, I could use it to create my very own meta-package, with just the right dependencies. But I like Christopher's suggestion better, I think that is The Right Way(tm) to do it because it would solve the problem once and for all. CU Micha
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
Package: kppp Version: 3.3.2-1 Severity: normal The dependency on ppp changed from Recommends in 3.3.1-2 to Depends in 3.3.2-1. Since KDE ist perfectly useable on a LAN without ppp I dont understand the reason for changing this dependency. CU Micha -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 APT prefers unstable APT policy: (500, 'unstable') Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.6.10-1-k7 Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C (charmap=ANSI_X3.4-1968) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#293246: kppp: dependency on ppp
On February 1, 2005 18:23, Michail Bachmann wrote: The dependency on ppp changed from Recommends in 3.3.1-2 to Depends in 3.3.2-1. Since KDE ist perfectly useable on a LAN without ppp I dont understand the reason for changing this dependency. If you're on a LAN, why are you using kppp? It would be helpful if you could explain your situation in more detail. Thanks, Christopher Martin pgpoNJwVeXg77.pgp Description: PGP signature
