Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 10:43:03PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-11 22:00:36 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: If there was such thing as an appropriate font for all characters that exist is all languages, I'd agree. Unfortunately, this is not the case, and you can't base your rendering on one font for everything. Thus the firefox parameters. No, I mean that Firefox should select the font based on the characters that really appears in the document, since this is what the user sees. Then you can't tell apart chinese and japanese. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-12 08:49:39 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 10:43:03PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I mean that Firefox should select the font based on the characters that really appears in the document, since this is what the user sees. Then you can't tell apart chinese and japanese. I don't understand what you mean. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 10:54:53AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-12 08:49:39 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 10:43:03PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I mean that Firefox should select the font based on the characters that really appears in the document, since this is what the user sees. Then you can't tell apart chinese and japanese. I don't understand what you mean. With the wonderful Han unification, a same unicode character has different representations in different fonts, because these character simply don't write the same way in chinese, in japanese or in korean. Such characters are sometimes so different that, for example, japanese people can't read the character if represented with a chinese font. If you base yourself on the characters that appear in the document, you can't say if it is chinese or japanese or even korean if it uses hanja. There are similar problems with several other scripts. There might even be the same problem with scripts that include latin characters and add specific character or special diactritics that are not present in most western fonts. If you decide that all ascii is to be written with a western font and such a script is actually being used, you're likely to display something ugly. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-12 11:56:56 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: With the wonderful Han unification, a same unicode character has different representations in different fonts, because these character simply don't write the same way in chinese, in japanese or in korean. Such characters are sometimes so different that, for example, japanese people can't read the character if represented with a chinese font. If you base yourself on the characters that appear in the document, you can't say if it is chinese or japanese or even korean if it uses hanja. OK, I know understand. However, if only western characters really appear in the document, it is possible to use a western font. There are similar problems with several other scripts. There might even be the same problem with scripts that include latin characters and add specific character or special diactritics that are not present in most western fonts. If you decide that all ascii is to be written with a western font and such a script is actually being used, you're likely to display something ugly. But Firefox should detect that such special characters are used, and select another font accordingly (depending on the user's configuration). The language and/or the encoding should be used only when there's some ambiguity. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 04:34:14PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-12 11:56:56 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: With the wonderful Han unification, a same unicode character has different representations in different fonts, because these character simply don't write the same way in chinese, in japanese or in korean. Such characters are sometimes so different that, for example, japanese people can't read the character if represented with a chinese font. If you base yourself on the characters that appear in the document, you can't say if it is chinese or japanese or even korean if it uses hanja. OK, I know understand. However, if only western characters really appear in the document, it is possible to use a western font. There are similar problems with several other scripts. There might even be the same problem with scripts that include latin characters and add specific character or special diactritics that are not present in most western fonts. If you decide that all ascii is to be written with a western font and such a script is actually being used, you're likely to display something ugly. But Firefox should detect that such special characters are used, and select another font accordingly (depending on the user's configuration). The language and/or the encoding should be used only when there's some ambiguity. So, your wish would be that if a page has only ascii, it is treated as ascii, even if the specified encoding or language (attribute lang) is something else ? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-12 18:38:28 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: So, your wish would be that if a page has only ascii, it is treated as ascii, even if the specified encoding or language (attribute lang) is something else ? Yes (after parsing, of course), and ditto with characters from iso-8859-1 and things like that. But this should be done at node level (Firefox already detects the language at node level anyway, so there wouldn't be much change). -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 11:53:08PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On 2006-02-10 21:05:04 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 07:24:00PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL
PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2006-02-10 14:40:35 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
Could you send the output for these commands :
LANG=zh_CN fc-match sans
LANG=ja_JP fc-match sans
Vera.ttf: Bitstream Vera Sans Roman
for both commands.
Then I don't understand why you don't get Bitstream Vera Sans in
Firefox.
Perhaps LANG isn't sufficient for the tests above. With LC_ALL:
Interesting, here, LANG was enough...
dixsept:~ LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans
18x18ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja
dixsept:~ LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans
12x13ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja
Could you send your /etc/fonts/fonts.conf and ${HOME}/.fonts.conf if
there's one ?
Mike
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Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-11 08:38:03 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
Could you send your /etc/fonts/fonts.conf and ${HOME}/.fonts.conf if
there's one ?
/etc/fonts/fonts.conf is attached; I have neither ${HOME}/.fonts.conf
nor /etc/fonts/local.conf.
--
Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
?xml version=1.0?
!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM fonts.dtd
!-- /etc/fonts/fonts.conf file to configure system font access --
fontconfig
!--
DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE.
IT WILL BE REPLACED WHEN FONTCONFIG IS UPDATED.
LOCAL CHANGES BELONG IN 'local.conf'.
The intent of this standard configuration file is to be adequate for
most environments. If you have a reasonably normal environment and
have found problems with this configuration, they are probably
things that others will also want fixed. Please submit any
problems to the fontconfig bugzilla system located at fontconfig.org
Note that the normal 'make install' procedure for fontconfig is to
replace any existing fonts.conf file with the new version. Place
any local customizations in local.conf which this file references.
Keith Packard
--
!-- Font directory list --
dir/usr/share/fonts/dir
dir/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/dir dir/usr/local/share/fonts/dir
dir~/.fonts/dir
!--
Accept deprecated 'mono' alias, replacing it with 'monospace'
--
match target=pattern
test qual=any name=family
stringmono/string
/test
edit name=family mode=assign
stringmonospace/string
/edit
/match
!--
Accept alternate 'sans serif' spelling, replacing it with 'sans-serif'
--
match target=pattern
test qual=any name=family
stringsans serif/string
/test
edit name=family mode=assign
stringsans-serif/string
/edit
/match
!--
Accept deprecated 'sans' alias, replacing it with 'sans-serif'
--
match target=pattern
test qual=any name=family
stringsans/string
/test
edit name=family mode=assign
stringsans-serif/string
/edit
/match
!--
Mark common families with their generics so we'll get
something reasonable
--
!--
Serif faces
--
alias
familyBitstream Vera Serif/family
familyTimes New Roman/family
familyThorndale AMT/family
familyTimes/family
familyNimbus Roman No9 L/family
familyLuxi Serif/family
familyKochi Mincho/family
familyAR PL SungtiL GB/family
familyAR PL Mingti2L Big5/family
familyＭＳ 明朝/family
familyBaekmuk Batang/family
familyFreeSerif/family
defaultfamilyserif/family/default
/alias
!--
Sans-serif faces
--
alias
familyBitstream Vera Sans/family
familyHelvetica/family
familyArial/family
familyVerdana/family
familyAlbany AMT/family
familyNimbus Sans L/family
familyLuxi Sans/family
familyKochi Gothic/family
familyAR PL KaitiM GB/family
familyAR PL KaitiM Big5/family
familyＭＳ ゴシック/family
familyBaekmuk Dotum/family
familySimSun/family
familyFreeSans/family
defaultfamilysans-serif/family/default
/alias
!--
Monospace faces
--
alias
familyBitstream Vera Sans Mono/family
familyCourier/family
familyCourier New/family
familyAndale Mono/family
familyLuxi Mono/family
familyCumberland AMT/family
familyNimbus Mono L/family
familyNSimSun/family
familyFreeMono/family
defaultfamilymonospace/family/default
/alias
!--
If the font still has no generic name, add sans-serif
--
match target=pattern
test qual=all name=family compare=not_eq
stringsans-serif/string
/test
test qual=all name=family compare=not_eq
stringserif/string
/test
test qual=all name=family compare=not_eq
stringmonospace/string
/test
edit name=family mode=append_last
stringsans-serif/string
/edit
/match
!--
URW provides
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 11:16:33AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On 2006-02-11 08:38:03 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
Could you send your /etc/fonts/fonts.conf and ${HOME}/.fonts.conf if
there's one ?
/etc/fonts/fonts.conf is attached; I have neither ${HOME}/.fonts.conf
nor /etc/fonts/local.conf.
Er let's try again with
LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif
LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif
Mike
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Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-11 11:22:12 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Er let's try again with LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif dixsept:~ LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif 18x18ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja dixsept:~ LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif 12x13ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 11:38:25AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-11 11:22:12 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Er let's try again with LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif dixsept:~ LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif 18x18ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja dixsept:~ LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif 12x13ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja I'm troubled. Why does your fontconfig keep using pcf fonts ? It should use one of the fonts from the appropriate section of the /etc/fonts/fonts.conf. Anyways, what do you need these fonts for ? Can't you, as a workaround, remove them ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-11 11:58:17 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 11:38:25AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dixsept:~ LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif 18x18ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja dixsept:~ LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif 12x13ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja I'm troubled. Why does your fontconfig keep using pcf fonts ? I need these bitmap fonts for terminals (they render much better than outline ones at small sizes). And I needed to add support for bitmap fonts in fontconfig, as gnome-terminal can use them only if they are enabled (I prefer xterm, but xterm's selection mechanism is incompatible with Firefox -- Debian bugs 276090 and 277832, Mozilla bug 63419). The problem is that fontconfig shouldn't use them in Firefox as other better fonts can be used (e.g. Bitstream Vera Sans). Note: In gnome-terminal, I explicitly set the font to fixed, so there shouldn't be a clash. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 02:34:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-11 11:58:17 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 11:38:25AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dixsept:~ LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans-serif 18x18ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja dixsept:~ LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans-serif 12x13ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja I'm troubled. Why does your fontconfig keep using pcf fonts ? I need these bitmap fonts for terminals (they render much better than outline ones at small sizes). And I needed to add support for bitmap fonts in fontconfig, as gnome-terminal can use them only if they are enabled (I prefer xterm, but xterm's selection mechanism is incompatible with Firefox -- Debian bugs 276090 and 277832, Mozilla bug 63419). The problem is that fontconfig shouldn't use them in Firefox as other better fonts can be used (e.g. Bitstream Vera Sans). Note: In gnome-terminal, I explicitly set the font to fixed, so there shouldn't be a clash. You should file a bug against fontconfig about that particular font selection problem. For the firefox one, i'm afraid to say it's probably a wontfix. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-11 15:08:08 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: You should file a bug against fontconfig about that particular font selection problem. I've just reported a bug. For the firefox one, i'm afraid to say it's probably a wontfix. Even though there's a problem with fontconfig, I don't think a font selection based on the language or the encoding is correct (unless the W3C says to do so). The behavior shouldn't depend on the language and certainly not on the encoding, and Firefox shouldn't let the user see internal things such as the encoding and the language (for font rendering); the best thing to do is to look at the actual characters. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 05:29:55PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-11 15:08:08 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: You should file a bug against fontconfig about that particular font selection problem. I've just reported a bug. For the firefox one, i'm afraid to say it's probably a wontfix. Even though there's a problem with fontconfig, I don't think a font selection based on the language or the encoding is correct (unless the W3C says to do so). The behavior shouldn't depend on the language and certainly not on the encoding, and Firefox shouldn't let the user see internal things such as the encoding and the language (for font rendering); the best thing to do is to look at the actual characters. If there was such thing as an appropriate font for all characters that exist is all languages, I'd agree. Unfortunately, this is not the case, and you can't base your rendering on one font for everything. Thus the firefox parameters. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-11 22:00:36 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: If there was such thing as an appropriate font for all characters that exist is all languages, I'd agree. Unfortunately, this is not the case, and you can't base your rendering on one font for everything. Thus the firefox parameters. No, I mean that Firefox should select the font based on the characters that really appears in the document, since this is what the user sees. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 01:57:46PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-09 12:55:48 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Can you extensively list all the fonts you have installed ? I've attached the output of fc-list. Waw, that's a lot of them. Could you send the output for these commands : LANG=zh_CN fc-match sans LANG=ja_JP fc-match sans Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-10 14:40:35 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Could you send the output for these commands : LANG=zh_CN fc-match sans LANG=ja_JP fc-match sans Vera.ttf: Bitstream Vera Sans Roman for both commands. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 07:24:00PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-10 14:40:35 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Could you send the output for these commands : LANG=zh_CN fc-match sans LANG=ja_JP fc-match sans Vera.ttf: Bitstream Vera Sans Roman for both commands. Then I don't understand why you don't get Bitstream Vera Sans in Firefox. Did you change the chinese and japanese font settings in firefox ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-10 21:05:04 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 07:24:00PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-10 14:40:35 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Could you send the output for these commands : LANG=zh_CN fc-match sans LANG=ja_JP fc-match sans Vera.ttf: Bitstream Vera Sans Roman for both commands. Then I don't understand why you don't get Bitstream Vera Sans in Firefox. Perhaps LANG isn't sufficient for the tests above. With LC_ALL: dixsept:~ LC_ALL=zh_CN fc-match sans 18x18ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja dixsept:~ LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match sans 12x13ja.pcf.gz: Fixed ja Did you change the chinese and japanese font settings in firefox ? No, I have by default: Proportional: Sans Serif Serif: serif Sans-serif: sans-serif Monospace: monospace -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-08 20:12:35 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: I noticed some changes in font selection with pango. Since it has been enabled by default in latest release, can you check if it helps your case ? In fact, this is worse. Pages on which there was no problem (e.g. Google) are now also rendered with bitmap fonts. Moreover even the interface has incorrect fonts (I've just reported a bug about that). -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 11:25:59AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-08 20:12:35 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: I noticed some changes in font selection with pango. Since it has been enabled by default in latest release, can you check if it helps your case ? In fact, this is worse. Pages on which there was no problem (e.g. Google) are now also rendered with bitmap fonts. Moreover even the interface has incorrect fonts (I've just reported a bug about that). Can you extensively list all the fonts you have installed ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-09 12:55:48 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Can you extensively list all the fonts you have installed ? I've attached the output of fc-list. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA LucidaBright:style=Italic Utopia:style=Bold Italic Nimbus Sans L:style=Regular Italic Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:style=Bold UnDotum,은 돋움:style=Bold,Regular Thryomanes:style=Italic URW Palladio L:style=Roman Century Schoolbook L:style=Bold Italic Modd:style=Regular LucidaTypewriter:style=Sans Bold Fixed:style=Bold Bitstream Vera Sans:style=Oblique Nimbus Sans L:style=Bold Times:style=Bold Italic Clean:style=Regular OpenSymbol:style=Regular Utopia:style=Bold DejaVu Serif Condensed:style=Bold UnDotum,은 돋움:style=Regular UnGungseo,은 궁서:style=Regular ClearlyU PUA:style=Regular UnPenheulim,은 펜흘림:style=Regular UnBom,은 봄:style=Bold,Regular URW Chancery L:style=Medium Italic DejaVu Sans Mono:style=BoldOblique Bitstream Vera Sans:style=Roman Charter:style=Bold Italic Bitstream Charter:style=Bold Italic wasy10:style=Normal DejaVu Sans Condensed:style=Bold Terminus:style=Bold Oblique Nimbus Roman No9 L:style=Regular DejaVu Sans:style=BoldOblique Neep Alt:style=SemiCondensed cmex10:style=Medium Century Schoolbook L:style=Bold Century Schoolbook L:style=Italic UnBatang,은 바탕:style=Bold,Regular Thryomanes:style=Regular Nimbus Sans L:style=Regular FreeSerif:style=Bold,polkrepko Courier:style=Regular URW Palladio L:style=Italic Terminus:style=Bold Charter:style=Bold Cursor:style=Regular DejaVu Sans Condensed:style=Condensed Helvetica:style=Oblique UnJamoSora,은 자모 소라:style=Regular LucidaBright:style=Regular Nimbus Sans L:style=Bold Condensed Terminal:style=Bold URW Gothic L:style=Demi FreeSerif:style=Italic,ležeče Nimbus Roman No9 L:style=Medium Italic DejaVu Serif Condensed:style=BoldOblique Bitstream Charter:style=Regular fixed:style=Bold Italic Fixed:style=Bold SemiCondensed Nimbus Mono L:style=Bold Oblique Neep:style=Regular FreeSans:style=Medium,navadno Dingbats:style=Regular Fixed:style=SemiCondensed Neep Alt:style=Bold Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:style=Oblique Nimbus Roman No9 L:style=Medium Times:style=Bold Nimbus Sans L:style=Bold Italic DejaVu Sans Condensed:style=BoldOblique Courier 10 Pitch:style=Bold Italic Charter:style=Italic DejaVu Sans:style=Oblique Nimbus Mono L:style=Regular FreeSans:style=Oblique,ležeče UnPilgi,은 필기:style=Regular Courier:style=Oblique DejaVu Serif:style=BoldOblique cmsy10:style=Medium Bitstream Charter:style=Italic Newspaper:style=Regular URW Gothic L:style=Book Thryomanes:style=Bold Italic UnJamoDotum,은 자모 돋움:style=Regular Times:style=Italic ClearlyU:style=Regular Lucida:style=Sans Bold Bitstream Vera Sans:style=Bold Fixed:style=Oblique SemiCondensed DejaVu Sans Mono:style=Oblique FreeMono:style=BoldOblique,Negreta cursiva,tučné kurzíva,fed kursiv,Fett Kursiv,Έντονα Πλάγια,Negrita Cursiva,Lihavoitu Kursivoi,Gras Italique,Félkövér dőlt,Grassetto Corsivo,Vet Cursief,Halvfet Kursiv,Pogrubiona kursywa,Negrito Itálico,Полужирный Курсив,Tučná kurzíva,Fet Kursiv,Kalın İtalik,polkrepko ležeče,Lodi etzana Fixed:style=Oblique DejaVu Serif:style=Oblique LucidaTypewriter:style=Sans msam10:style=Medium New Century Schoolbook:style=Bold ClearlyU Alternate Glyphs:style=Regular Courier 10 Pitch:style=Italic Utopia:style=Italic Thryomanes:style=Bold Modd:style=Bold SemiCondensed Courier:style=Bold Oblique Lucida:style=Sans Italic Bitstream Vera Serif:style=Roman Lucida:style=Sans Modd:style=SemiCondensed Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:style=Bold Oblique Bitstream Vera Sans:style=Bold Oblique Nimbus Sans L:style=Regular Condensed Italic FreeSans:style=Bold,polkrepko URW Bookman L:style=Demi Bold URW Bookman L:style=Light Neep Alt:style=Bold SemiCondensed FreeMono:style=Bold,Negreta,tučné,fed,Fett,Έντονα,Negrita,Lihavoitu,Gras,Félkövér,Grassetto,Vet,Halvfet,Pogrubiony,Negrito,Полужирный,Fet,Kalın,polkrepko,đậm,Lodia Helvetica:style=Bold URW Gothic L:style=Demi Oblique Times:style=Regular Standard Symbols L:style=Regular DejaVu Serif Condensed:style=Oblique New Century Schoolbook:style=Bold Italic Neep:style=Bold UnJamoNovel,은 자모 노벨:style=Regular Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:style=Roman FreeMono:style=Medium,Normal,obyčejné,Standard,Κανονικά,Normaali,Normál,Normale,Standaard,Normalny,Обычный,Normálne,navadno,thường,Arrunta fixed:style=Italic FreeSerif:style=Medium,navadno Courier 10 Pitch:style=Regular Lucida:style=Sans Bold Italic Terminus:style=Oblique Helvetica:style=Regular URW Palladio L:style=Bold DejaVu Sans Condensed:style=Oblique cmr10:style=Medium Nimbus Sans L:style=Regular Condensed UnPilgi,은 필기:style=Bold,Regular URW Bookman L:style=Light Italic Neep Alt:style=Regular Terminus:style=Regular Century Schoolbook L:style=Roman UnPen,은 펜:style=Regular UnYetgul,은 옛글:style=Bold,Regular FreeSerif:style=BoldItalic,polkrepko ležeče Nimbus Roman No9 L:style=Regular
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
I noticed some changes in font selection with pango. Since it has been enabled by default in latest release, can you check if it helps your case ? Mike On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 05:21:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-04 15:19:40 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Yes, that sucks, but that's not a firefox problem, it's a fontconfig one. Firefox can only hint fontconfig about what it believes the text is written in, making assumptions from what the server and the page gives him. Do you mean that this is fontconfig that changes the font depending on the encoding of the page? Even if this is the case, Firefox should hide this problem to fontconfig. An example of such problem : choose a CJK font and display a french text with diacritic characters such as ?. Most CJK font doesn't support these characters. The us-ascii part of the text will be displayed with the font you selected, and the ? in another font, which, most of the time, hasn't even got the same size or shape. Again, this is not a Firefox problem. This is partly a Firefox problem. In other applications, font configuration is clear; one doesn't have a configuration for each encoding. -- Vincent Lef?vre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-04 06:30:27 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Actually, it's the contrary. You must have a font that provides latin character set and chinese characters. I think I have one (a bitmap font, for xterm). This would explain the problem. The way it works is pretty simple, based on the character set from the page (GB2312), it chooses the chinese simplified font set in firefox preference, which, by default, uses the generic serif, sans-seric and monotype fonts. When displaying, it says to fontconfig that the text is to display with the serif, sans-serif or monotone font, and the chinese language. IMHO, it would be better to look at the actual characters instead of the encoding. The encoding doesn't have much meaning (one can even use an US-ASCII encoding for any language, thanks to entities), and AFAIK, the specifications from the W3C never say that the encoding has any meaning concerning the language. And in particular, the encoding is something global to the page, whereas the language (or the script) is local. Moreover, the browser should have been able to use different fonts on the page. For instance, what if a Chinese author write an English text, then his name with Chinese characters? Choosing GB2312 would be a natural choice. Then, fontconfig, knowing it's chinese, tries to find the fittest font for the generic name, which means it will look first at chinese fonts, and will pick the first one it finds that contain the latin character set, which they are, for most of them, providing. Again, I think that it is a bad choice. One should consider that fonts can be displayed under different conditions. For instance, a bitmap font is OK for an xterm, but not for Firefox. Anyways, it's not firefox's fault if the author of the web page is dumb and said the page is in GB2312 charset while it is basic ASCII and if CJK fonts usually include ugly latin characters. I completely disagree: see above. And anyway, GB2312 is *correct* even when there isn't a good reason to use it. On the contrary, Firefox is dumb since it looks at the encoding instead of the actual characters (after resolving entities). The only thing one could say concerning the author is that he should have provided the language (with the lang or xml:lang attribute). But one should note that it is not always easily possible, e.g. when the document comes from an external source where the language isn't provided and it has been processed automatically. Moreover, after some thoughts, choosing the font based on the declared language would also be incorrect. Indeed, one may write a Chinese or Japanese person name with western characters, e.g. p xml:lang=ensome English text span xml:lang=jaIshii/span/p All this text should be displayed with the best font providing ASCII. You have several options to work around this : - say firefox the page is in a latin language (view - encoding menu), which will be fine, since the charset is ASCII, This is not acceptable as a general workaround. - find the chinese font you have on your system that provides those characters you don't want to see and uninstall it. Instead of uninstalling it (I'd like to keep it for text terminals), there should be a way to disable this font for Firefox. - change the chinese font settings in the preferences to use a given font instead of the generic ones. Yes, choosing Bitstream Vera seems to be OK, and it seems to provide Japanese characters (I haven't tried Chinese). But isn't this something that should be done at the fontconfig level (so that any application would benefit)? Also, I've noticed that when I look at results returned by Google (e.g. for sharp), I get nice fonts (both western and Japanese), but when I look at the page that uses ISO-2022-JP, I get an ugly (bitmap?) monospace font. There's something wrong in the font selection! Ditto for Chinese characters (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China looks OK for both western and Chinese characters). In both cases, the encoding is Unicode. I wonder why Firefox doesn't use a Unicode font for everything! BTW, is there any way to know what request Firefox did to fontconfig for some part of text? -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 12:37:53PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (...) In both cases, the encoding is Unicode. I wonder why Firefox doesn't use a Unicode font for everything! The only unicode font covering all the unicode character set is Arial Unicode MS, and it's limited to unicode 2.1. And actually, you'll get exactly the same kind of font problems with anything using fontconfig with different locales. Yes, that sucks, but that's not a firefox problem, it's a fontconfig one. Firefox can only hint fontconfig about what it believes the text is written in, making assumptions from what the server and the page gives him. An example of such problem : choose a CJK font and display a french text with diacritic characters such as é. Most CJK font doesn't support these characters. The us-ascii part of the text will be displayed with the font you selected, and the é in another font, which, most of the time, hasn't even got the same size or shape. Again, this is not a Firefox problem. BTW, is there any way to know what request Firefox did to fontconfig for some part of text? That's a good question. I have no idea. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-04 15:19:40 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Yes, that sucks, but that's not a firefox problem, it's a fontconfig one. Firefox can only hint fontconfig about what it believes the text is written in, making assumptions from what the server and the page gives him. Do you mean that this is fontconfig that changes the font depending on the encoding of the page? Even if this is the case, Firefox should hide this problem to fontconfig. An example of such problem : choose a CJK font and display a french text with diacritic characters such as é. Most CJK font doesn't support these characters. The us-ascii part of the text will be displayed with the font you selected, and the é in another font, which, most of the time, hasn't even got the same size or shape. Again, this is not a Firefox problem. This is partly a Firefox problem. In other applications, font configuration is clear; one doesn't have a configuration for each encoding. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
Package: firefox Version: 1.5.dfsg-4 Severity: normal With pages using a non-western encoding (e.g. ISO-2022-JP or GB2312), such as http://hannah.ipc.miyakyo-u.ac.jp/kim/Linux/AthlonGCC.html http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/n1013.htm the fonts look ugly. This bug seems to be Debian specific, as there's no such problem with Fedora (note: I've tried by starting a remote Firefox on several machines, using the same X server on my local machine, and the same NFS account). I originally reported the bug here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=298068 which has a link to the snapshot (for the first page above): https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=18 -- System Information: Debian Release: testing/unstable APT prefers unstable APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (500, 'stable') Architecture: i386 (i686) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash Kernel: Linux 2.6.14.4-20051215 Locale: LANG=POSIX, LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO8859-1 (charmap=ISO-8859-1) Versions of packages firefox depends on: ii debianutils 2.15.2 Miscellaneous utilities specific t ii fontconfig2.3.2-1.1 generic font configuration library ii libatk1.0-0 1.10.3-1 The ATK accessibility toolkit ii libc6 2.3.5-12.1 GNU C Library: Shared libraries an ii libcairo2 1.0.2-3The Cairo 2D vector graphics libra ii libfontconfig12.3.2-1.1 generic font configuration library ii libfreetype6 2.1.10-1 FreeType 2 font engine, shared lib ii libgcc1 1:4.0.2-8 GCC support library ii libglib2.0-0 2.8.6-1The GLib library of C routines ii libgtk2.0-0 2.8.10-1 The GTK+ graphical user interface ii libidl0 0.8.5-1library for parsing CORBA IDL file ii libjpeg62 6b-11 The Independent JPEG Group's JPEG ii libpango1.0-0 1.10.2-1 Layout and rendering of internatio ii libpng12-01.2.8rel-5 PNG library - runtime ii libstdc++64.0.2-8The GNU Standard C++ Library v3 ii libx11-6 6.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System protocol client li ii libxcursor1 1.1.3-1X cursor management library ii libxext6 6.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System miscellaneous exte ii libxft2 2.1.8.2-2 FreeType-based font drawing librar ii libxi66.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System Input extension li ii libxinerama1 6.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System multi-head display ii libxp66.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System printing extension ii libxrandr26.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System Resize, Rotate and ii libxrender1 1:0.9.0.2-1X Rendering Extension client libra ii libxt66.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Toolkit Intrinsics ii psmisc22.1-1 Utilities that use the proc filesy ii zlib1g1:1.2.3-9 compression library - runtime firefox recommends no packages. -- no debconf information -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
Try installing ttf-unfonts or some other font packages. On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 04:53:32PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: firefox Version: 1.5.dfsg-4 Severity: normal With pages using a non-western encoding (e.g. ISO-2022-JP or GB2312), such as http://hannah.ipc.miyakyo-u.ac.jp/kim/Linux/AthlonGCC.html http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/n1013.htm the fonts look ugly. This bug seems to be Debian specific, as there's no such problem with Fedora (note: I've tried by starting a remote Firefox on several machines, using the same X server on my local machine, and the same NFS account). I originally reported the bug here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=298068 which has a link to the snapshot (for the first page above): https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=18 -- System Information: Debian Release: testing/unstable APT prefers unstable APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (500, 'stable') Architecture: i386 (i686) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash Kernel: Linux 2.6.14.4-20051215 Locale: LANG=POSIX, LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO8859-1 (charmap=ISO-8859-1) Versions of packages firefox depends on: ii debianutils 2.15.2 Miscellaneous utilities specific t ii fontconfig2.3.2-1.1 generic font configuration library ii libatk1.0-0 1.10.3-1 The ATK accessibility toolkit ii libc6 2.3.5-12.1 GNU C Library: Shared libraries an ii libcairo2 1.0.2-3The Cairo 2D vector graphics libra ii libfontconfig12.3.2-1.1 generic font configuration library ii libfreetype6 2.1.10-1 FreeType 2 font engine, shared lib ii libgcc1 1:4.0.2-8 GCC support library ii libglib2.0-0 2.8.6-1The GLib library of C routines ii libgtk2.0-0 2.8.10-1 The GTK+ graphical user interface ii libidl0 0.8.5-1library for parsing CORBA IDL file ii libjpeg62 6b-11 The Independent JPEG Group's JPEG ii libpango1.0-0 1.10.2-1 Layout and rendering of internatio ii libpng12-01.2.8rel-5 PNG library - runtime ii libstdc++64.0.2-8The GNU Standard C++ Library v3 ii libx11-6 6.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System protocol client li ii libxcursor1 1.1.3-1X cursor management library ii libxext6 6.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System miscellaneous exte ii libxft2 2.1.8.2-2 FreeType-based font drawing librar ii libxi66.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System Input extension li ii libxinerama1 6.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System multi-head display ii libxp66.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System printing extension ii libxrandr26.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Window System Resize, Rotate and ii libxrender1 1:0.9.0.2-1X Rendering Extension client libra ii libxt66.9.0.dfsg.1-4 X Toolkit Intrinsics ii psmisc22.1-1 Utilities that use the proc filesy ii zlib1g1:1.2.3-9 compression library - runtime firefox recommends no packages. -- no debconf information -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On 2006-02-03 19:43:03 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Try installing ttf-unfonts or some other font packages. ttf-unfonts takes 32.6 MB, and one of my machine doesn't have enough disk space (otherwise I'd have to remove useful packages...). Such a huge package shouldn't be needed just to display *English* text. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Bug#351259: firefox: Large and ugly fonts with pages using non-western encoding
On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 03:29:44AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-03 19:43:03 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Try installing ttf-unfonts or some other font packages. ttf-unfonts takes 32.6 MB, and one of my machine doesn't have enough disk space (otherwise I'd have to remove useful packages...). Such a huge package shouldn't be needed just to display *English* text. Actually, it's the contrary. You must have a font that provides latin character set and chinese characters. The way it works is pretty simple, based on the character set from the page (GB2312), it chooses the chinese simplified font set in firefox preference, which, by default, uses the generic serif, sans-seric and monotype fonts. When displaying, it says to fontconfig that the text is to display with the serif, sans-serif or monotone font, and the chinese language. Then, fontconfig, knowing it's chinese, tries to find the fittest font for the generic name, which means it will look first at chinese fonts, and will pick the first one it finds that contain the latin character set, which they are, for most of them, providing. Anyways, it's not firefox's fault if the author of the web page is dumb and said the page is in GB2312 charset while it is basic ASCII and if CJK fonts usually include ugly latin characters. You have several options to work around this : - say firefox the page is in a latin language (view - encoding menu), which will be fine, since the charset is ASCII, - find the chinese font you have on your system that provides those characters you don't want to see and uninstall it. - change the chinese font settings in the preferences to use a given font instead of the generic ones. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
