Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Quoting Stanislav Maslovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hello, On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 11:55:44PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: [ ... ] I'm yelling right now because I'm quite angry. We put a lot of efforts to allow you guys having an installer translated in all your languages and such negligence is really desperating. This sounds like you think you own Debian. In all your languages - do you mean slavonic languages here? Before making such rasist statements, please I mean ALL languages, dude. No bloody racist intent (dunno where you got this idea) but as I'm, quite proudly, think I have some responsibility for the number of languages supported by D-I being now over 60, this indeed sounds a bit funny, I'm afraid. Ask in debian-i18n if you have some doubts...or read this list's archives. think twice. Also, from your words it is seen that you percept Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian users as very distint in their nature. Which is again your own problem, I will not comment on this. Absolutely not. If you again carefully read my answer, it explains that Ukrainian is very well tested because Eugenyi really cares about the work he does and not only translates but also tests the installer in his language. Belarusian is untested Russian is poorly tested Macedonian is loosely tested Bulgarian is loosely tested Kazakh is untested Ukrainian is well tested *that* is the situation for cyrillic languages I think, this bug was not noticed earlier simply because the most of experienced users do not upgrade with an installer, they do it with apt-get distupgrade or something similar. However, I do agree that this was the task of the i10n team to test the current situation with the installer (I am not from the team by the way). that's my point...and more precisely it is my point to explain that testing the installer is among the duties of all l10n teams, not only those for cyrillic languages. ordinary users can certainly help as well (that's why I CC'ed the debian-russian team) as testing the installer is indeed really easy to do. Because the bug _is_ noticed now it is better to think of how to solve it instead of yelling. Eugeniy has actually proposed some ways how to do it. I hope you understand that this problem is common for all languages that use console-cyrillic so that disabling just Russian in the installer will not help. Untrue. That problem happens only for languages which use console-cyrillic. Ukrainian does not (probably because Eugenyi did not feel that need, or for whatever else reason). And, sorry, but I/we (the D-I team) can't fix all languages if I/we don't get support for them. Cyrillic languages users ar very happy that Eugenyi actually cares about them for over 2 years now but I would expect more implications by other users as well. You may find my mail a bit rude, but that's the situation with the installer l10n: it is well localized but very often poorly tested. For instance, I think that the recent beta3 has only been tested in less than 10 languages before it has been released. The beta2 was more testedmostly because I took time to run about 40 different installs in languages I actually can't read and understand (which means I cannot really find all bugs). This is a warning to all language teams and international users: we *will not ship* localization for the installer if they have not been tested before. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
I see. Personally, I also do not use console-cyrillic in my russian installations. The console-tools package has a set of russian fonts and keymaps I am pretty satisfied with. So, perhaps, one solution is to make console-cyrillic optional and remove it from tasks or whatever place Maybe, yes. This is what Eugenyi decided for Ukrainian, for instance. Bulgarian, Kazakh and Macedonian also do not use console-cyrillic. It's activated for Belarusian and I actually fail to remember what did motivate it (maybe Eugenyi advicehe's usually my reference when it comes at cyrillic stuff) it is mentioned in the installer. But then /etc/console/boottime.keymap.gz and /etc/console-tools/config should be configured properly with a certain tool. I am not experienced with the details of how the installer works, so Indeed, they are. Localechooser's finish-install does so but, from Eugenyi explanations, it indeed overwrites the defaults set by the console-cyrillic package itself. Indeed, I see two ways to go: -remove console-cyrillic for Russian and do just like we do for Ukrainian -do NOT overwrite console-cyrillic defaults in localechooser's finish-install script signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
it is mentioned in the installer. But then /etc/console/boottime.keymap.gz and /etc/console-tools/config should be configured properly with a certain tool. I am not experienced with the details of how the installer works, so Indeed, they are. Localechooser's finish-install does so but, from Eugenyi explanations, it indeed overwrites the defaults set by the console-cyrillic package itself. Indeed, I see two ways to go: -remove console-cyrillic for Russian and do just like we do for Ukrainian AFAIK, console-cyrillic is just a set of cyrillic fonts, keymaps and a script to tie them up. One thing to mention is that keymap is generated dynamically by the script from a base keymap and a chosen method of layout switching. That's all. I've always wondered about why not to include all these fonts into console-data or kbd package (not sure what is currently used in Etch)? The same can be done with keymaps. The feature for choosing a method for the layout switching is very useful though, IMHO. So, may be it is reasonable to support such a feature on the D-I level for all languages which have non-latin keyboard layout without a dedicated key for layout switching? That way we can get rid of console-cyrillic and make the keyboard layout managment more generic and language independent. -- Max -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
AFAIK, console-cyrillic is just a set of cyrillic fonts, keymaps and a script to tie them up. One thing to mention is that keymap is generated dynamically by the script from a base keymap and a chosen method of layout switching. That's all. Dunno. kbd development seems pretty stucked...and console-data is in maintenance-only mode. The feature for choosing a method for the layout switching is very useful though, IMHO. So, may be it is reasonable to support such a feature on the D-I level for all languages which have non-latin keyboard layout without a dedicated key for layout switching? That way we can get rid of console-cyrillic and make the keyboard layout managment more generic and language independent. All this would be great.if someone jumps in and really looks at all this console/keyboard stuff which is pretty loosely managed in the D-I team currently. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Sorry for newb question.Is it possible to have good and readable russian fonts without console-cyrillic in Debian?-- Igor Zubarev
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Hello, On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 11:55:44PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: [ ... ] I'm yelling right now because I'm quite angry. We put a lot of efforts to allow you guys having an installer translated in all your languages and such negligence is really desperating. This sounds like you think you own Debian. In all your languages - do you mean slavonic languages here? Before making such rasist statements, please think twice. Also, from your words it is seen that you percept Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian users as very distint in their nature. Which is again your own problem, I will not comment on this. I think, this bug was not noticed earlier simply because the most of experienced users do not upgrade with an installer, they do it with apt-get distupgrade or something similar. However, I do agree that this was the task of the i10n team to test the current situation with the installer (I am not from the team by the way). Because the bug _is_ noticed now it is better to think of how to solve it instead of yelling. Eugeniy has actually proposed some ways how to do it. I hope you understand that this problem is common for all languages that use console-cyrillic so that disabling just Russian in the installer will not help. -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
severity 384323 important thanks Quoting Eugenyi Meshcheryakov analyzing a bug report about broken installer in Russian: I tried default installation in Russian (RF) in qemu with network off, and console-cyrillic was installed. There was also dialogs displayed by console-cyrillic after tasksel were I was able to select switch keys, but those choices was later overwritten by localechooser's finish-install. That was not a problem in earlier versions of d-i because console-cyrillic was configured in second stage, after finish-install (or how it was called). But now it is confusing. localechooser should preseed console-cyrillic or do not try to change it's configuration at all. This bug is probably reproducible with all languages that have cyr=... in languagelist (Russian, Belarusian). That bug is then here sinceD-I beta2 IN MARCH 2006and not a single Russian user noticed...:-( I find this pretty sad and this indeed shows the poor level of testing that some language teams ad international users and developers give to the localized installer. It somewhat reinforces the feeling of Frans that we really should activate languages that HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY TESTED. I'm yelling right now because I'm quite angry. We put a lot of efforts to allow you guys having an installer translated in all your languages and such negligence is really desperating. This is not addressed to you, Eugen, of course. I know that you not only *translate* to your language but also TEST the installation in Ukrainian. You even do properly analysis for bugs in other languages like this one and I'm grateful to you. I wish I could say the same for all other languages. Thanks, Dmitry, also, for reporting this bug. There's at least one Russian user who uses D-I in his own language I consider this bug makes D-I currently not releasable with Russian activated. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 10:35:13AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: [ ... ] Because the bug _is_ noticed now it is better to think of how to solve it instead of yelling. Eugeniy has actually proposed some ways how to do it. I hope you understand that this problem is common for all languages that use console-cyrillic so that disabling just Russian in the installer will not help. Untrue. That problem happens only for languages which use console-cyrillic. Ukrainian does not (probably because Eugenyi did not feel that need, or for whatever else reason). I see. Personally, I also do not use console-cyrillic in my russian installations. The console-tools package has a set of russian fonts and keymaps I am pretty satisfied with. So, perhaps, one solution is to make console-cyrillic optional and remove it from tasks or whatever place it is mentioned in the installer. But then /etc/console/boottime.keymap.gz and /etc/console-tools/config should be configured properly with a certain tool. I am not experienced with the details of how the installer works, so I cannot recommend anything more detailed. I am ready to help if there is such a need. But then you will have to explain in what ways I can do that :) -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Christian, On 8/24/06, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Dmitry, also, for reporting this bug. There's at least one Russian user who uses D-I in his own language I consider this bug makes D-I currently not releasable with Russian activated. Let me clarify one thing. I understand the importance of localised D-I, but I personally don't care about (and don't use) localised (Russian) interface when primary interface language is English. On the other hand I want to be able to type and read Russian letters in consoles after the installation. This is bare minimum I personally expect from D-I considering Russian language support, and this functionality should not be tied to localisation in any way. -- ...Bye..Dmitry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
How much of localechooser's finish-install script really needs to run at the very end? Could some/all/the problimatic bits be moved to a base-installer.d hook, where they would happen before console-cryillic is installed? Interesting question. We currently have: -install libfribidi0 for RTL languages. Can certainly be moved earlier -install localization-config. Ditto, I guess -configure the console. Better keep it at the end, after other packages have been installed On the topic of console-cyrillic configuration: I tested removing completely the config by localechooser. This works. Indeed, when one installs in a language that triggers the install of console-cyrillic, that package is automatically configured and prompts for specific settings during its installation with pkgsel. So, as Eugen suggested, the code in localechooser's finish-install is useless and, even, nasty, as it overwrites choices made by the user. We can definitely remove it and I'll commit that change soon. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Christian Perrier wrote: Indeed, they are. Localechooser's finish-install does so but, from Eugenyi explanations, it indeed overwrites the defaults set by the console-cyrillic package itself. Indeed, I see two ways to go: -remove console-cyrillic for Russian and do just like we do for Ukrainian -do NOT overwrite console-cyrillic defaults in localechooser's finish-install script How much of localechooser's finish-install script really needs to run at the very end? Could some/all/the problimatic bits be moved to a base-installer.d hook, where they would happen before console-cryillic is installed? -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Hello, On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 11:55:44PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: [ ... ] I'm yelling right now because I'm quite angry. We put a lot of efforts to allow you guys having an installer translated in all your languages and such negligence is really desperating. This sounds like you think you own Debian. In all your languages - do you mean slavonic languages here? Before making such rasist statements, please think twice. Also, from your words it is seen that you percept Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian users as very distint in their nature. Which is again your own problem, I will not comment on this. I think, this bug was not noticed earlier simply because the most of experienced users do not upgrade with an installer, they do it with apt-get distupgrade or something similar. However, I do agree that this was the task of the i10n team to test the current situation with the installer (I am not from the team by the way). Because the bug _is_ noticed now it is better to think of how to solve it instead of yelling. Eugeniy has actually proposed some ways how to do it. I hope you understand that this problem is common for all languages that use console-cyrillic so that disabling just Russian in the installer will not help. -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Quoting Stanislav Maslovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hello, On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 11:55:44PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: [ ... ] I'm yelling right now because I'm quite angry. We put a lot of efforts to allow you guys having an installer translated in all your languages and such negligence is really desperating. This sounds like you think you own Debian. In all your languages - do you mean slavonic languages here? Before making such rasist statements, please I mean ALL languages, dude. No bloody racist intent (dunno where you got this idea) but as I'm, quite proudly, think I have some responsibility for the number of languages supported by D-I being now over 60, this indeed sounds a bit funny, I'm afraid. Ask in debian-i18n if you have some doubts...or read this list's archives. think twice. Also, from your words it is seen that you percept Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian users as very distint in their nature. Which is again your own problem, I will not comment on this. Absolutely not. If you again carefully read my answer, it explains that Ukrainian is very well tested because Eugenyi really cares about the work he does and not only translates but also tests the installer in his language. Belarusian is untested Russian is poorly tested Macedonian is loosely tested Bulgarian is loosely tested Kazakh is untested Ukrainian is well tested *that* is the situation for cyrillic languages I think, this bug was not noticed earlier simply because the most of experienced users do not upgrade with an installer, they do it with apt-get distupgrade or something similar. However, I do agree that this was the task of the i10n team to test the current situation with the installer (I am not from the team by the way). that's my point...and more precisely it is my point to explain that testing the installer is among the duties of all l10n teams, not only those for cyrillic languages. ordinary users can certainly help as well (that's why I CC'ed the debian-russian team) as testing the installer is indeed really easy to do. Because the bug _is_ noticed now it is better to think of how to solve it instead of yelling. Eugeniy has actually proposed some ways how to do it. I hope you understand that this problem is common for all languages that use console-cyrillic so that disabling just Russian in the installer will not help. Untrue. That problem happens only for languages which use console-cyrillic. Ukrainian does not (probably because Eugenyi did not feel that need, or for whatever else reason). And, sorry, but I/we (the D-I team) can't fix all languages if I/we don't get support for them. Cyrillic languages users ar very happy that Eugenyi actually cares about them for over 2 years now but I would expect more implications by other users as well. You may find my mail a bit rude, but that's the situation with the installer l10n: it is well localized but very often poorly tested. For instance, I think that the recent beta3 has only been tested in less than 10 languages before it has been released. The beta2 was more testedmostly because I took time to run about 40 different installs in languages I actually can't read and understand (which means I cannot really find all bugs). This is a warning to all language teams and international users: we *will not ship* localization for the installer if they have not been tested before. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 10:35:13AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: [ ... ] Because the bug _is_ noticed now it is better to think of how to solve it instead of yelling. Eugeniy has actually proposed some ways how to do it. I hope you understand that this problem is common for all languages that use console-cyrillic so that disabling just Russian in the installer will not help. Untrue. That problem happens only for languages which use console-cyrillic. Ukrainian does not (probably because Eugenyi did not feel that need, or for whatever else reason). I see. Personally, I also do not use console-cyrillic in my russian installations. The console-tools package has a set of russian fonts and keymaps I am pretty satisfied with. So, perhaps, one solution is to make console-cyrillic optional and remove it from tasks or whatever place it is mentioned in the installer. But then /etc/console/boottime.keymap.gz and /etc/console-tools/config should be configured properly with a certain tool. I am not experienced with the details of how the installer works, so I cannot recommend anything more detailed. I am ready to help if there is such a need. But then you will have to explain in what ways I can do that :) -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Sorry for newb question.Is it possible to have good and readable russian fonts without console-cyrillic in Debian?-- Igor Zubarev
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
I see. Personally, I also do not use console-cyrillic in my russian installations. The console-tools package has a set of russian fonts and keymaps I am pretty satisfied with. So, perhaps, one solution is to make console-cyrillic optional and remove it from tasks or whatever place Maybe, yes. This is what Eugenyi decided for Ukrainian, for instance. Bulgarian, Kazakh and Macedonian also do not use console-cyrillic. It's activated for Belarusian and I actually fail to remember what did motivate it (maybe Eugenyi advicehe's usually my reference when it comes at cyrillic stuff) it is mentioned in the installer. But then /etc/console/boottime.keymap.gz and /etc/console-tools/config should be configured properly with a certain tool. I am not experienced with the details of how the installer works, so Indeed, they are. Localechooser's finish-install does so but, from Eugenyi explanations, it indeed overwrites the defaults set by the console-cyrillic package itself. Indeed, I see two ways to go: -remove console-cyrillic for Russian and do just like we do for Ukrainian -do NOT overwrite console-cyrillic defaults in localechooser's finish-install script signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
it is mentioned in the installer. But then /etc/console/boottime.keymap.gz and /etc/console-tools/config should be configured properly with a certain tool. I am not experienced with the details of how the installer works, so Indeed, they are. Localechooser's finish-install does so but, from Eugenyi explanations, it indeed overwrites the defaults set by the console-cyrillic package itself. Indeed, I see two ways to go: -remove console-cyrillic for Russian and do just like we do for Ukrainian AFAIK, console-cyrillic is just a set of cyrillic fonts, keymaps and a script to tie them up. One thing to mention is that keymap is generated dynamically by the script from a base keymap and a chosen method of layout switching. That's all. I've always wondered about why not to include all these fonts into console-data or kbd package (not sure what is currently used in Etch)? The same can be done with keymaps. The feature for choosing a method for the layout switching is very useful though, IMHO. So, may be it is reasonable to support such a feature on the D-I level for all languages which have non-latin keyboard layout without a dedicated key for layout switching? That way we can get rid of console-cyrillic and make the keyboard layout managment more generic and language independent. -- Max -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
AFAIK, console-cyrillic is just a set of cyrillic fonts, keymaps and a script to tie them up. One thing to mention is that keymap is generated dynamically by the script from a base keymap and a chosen method of layout switching. That's all. Dunno. kbd development seems pretty stucked...and console-data is in maintenance-only mode. The feature for choosing a method for the layout switching is very useful though, IMHO. So, may be it is reasonable to support such a feature on the D-I level for all languages which have non-latin keyboard layout without a dedicated key for layout switching? That way we can get rid of console-cyrillic and make the keyboard layout managment more generic and language independent. All this would be great.if someone jumps in and really looks at all this console/keyboard stuff which is pretty loosely managed in the D-I team currently. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
Christian, On 8/24/06, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Dmitry, also, for reporting this bug. There's at least one Russian user who uses D-I in his own language I consider this bug makes D-I currently not releasable with Russian activated. Let me clarify one thing. I understand the importance of localised D-I, but I personally don't care about (and don't use) localised (Russian) interface when primary interface language is English. On the other hand I want to be able to type and read Russian letters in consoles after the installation. This is bare minimum I personally expect from D-I considering Russian language support, and this functionality should not be tied to localisation in any way. -- ...Bye..Dmitry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#384323: Bug#384248: installation-report: Almost successful Etch installation with di-beta3
severity 384323 important thanks Quoting Eugenyi Meshcheryakov analyzing a bug report about broken installer in Russian: I tried default installation in Russian (RF) in qemu with network off, and console-cyrillic was installed. There was also dialogs displayed by console-cyrillic after tasksel were I was able to select switch keys, but those choices was later overwritten by localechooser's finish-install. That was not a problem in earlier versions of d-i because console-cyrillic was configured in second stage, after finish-install (or how it was called). But now it is confusing. localechooser should preseed console-cyrillic or do not try to change it's configuration at all. This bug is probably reproducible with all languages that have cyr=... in languagelist (Russian, Belarusian). That bug is then here sinceD-I beta2 IN MARCH 2006and not a single Russian user noticed...:-( I find this pretty sad and this indeed shows the poor level of testing that some language teams ad international users and developers give to the localized installer. It somewhat reinforces the feeling of Frans that we really should activate languages that HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY TESTED. I'm yelling right now because I'm quite angry. We put a lot of efforts to allow you guys having an installer translated in all your languages and such negligence is really desperating. This is not addressed to you, Eugen, of course. I know that you not only *translate* to your language but also TEST the installation in Ukrainian. You even do properly analysis for bugs in other languages like this one and I'm grateful to you. I wish I could say the same for all other languages. Thanks, Dmitry, also, for reporting this bug. There's at least one Russian user who uses D-I in his own language I consider this bug makes D-I currently not releasable with Russian activated. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
