Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
I'm just reviewing some old bugs and came across this one. Personally I like having changelogs in my timezone for my packages and I believe that a lot of other people do too. Unless policy changes or there is a massive chorus of "no change it" then I will be closing this bug. - Craig -- Craig Small GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE 95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5 http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au http://www.debian.org/ Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Wed, Apr 04, 2007, Christoph Berg wrote: > What about supporting a variable DEBCHANGE_TZ in ~/.devscripts that > lets the user set UTC, but defaults to $TZ? Uh, isn't alias dch='TZ=UTC dch' good enough? -- Loïc Minier
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 05:58:28PM +0200, Christoph Berg wrote: > What about supporting a variable DEBCHANGE_TZ in ~/.devscripts that > lets the user set UTC, but defaults to $TZ? That would be a one-size-fits-all solution I would like. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy [EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ (15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the (15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
Re: Stefano Zacchiroli 2007-04-02 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't > a technical reason, and the point of uniforming a timezone so that it's > easier to compare dates among different changelog is definitely a valid > one. If we want to (mechanically) compare timestamps we have to parse them anyway. Parsing the timezone along is not even extra work, as other posters here have indicated. The main use for the timestamps for me is to know when I did the last change, and there knowing the local time helps greatly. What about supporting a variable DEBCHANGE_TZ in ~/.devscripts that lets the user set UTC, but defaults to $TZ? Christoph -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/
Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 03:11:23PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't > a technical reason, and the point of uniforming a timezone so that it's > easier to compare dates among different changelog is definitely a valid > one. Is comparing dates of different changelogs a serious usecase? Given that it doesn't neccessarily bear a relation to the date of upload, particularly if a package build is heavily tested before uploading... Upload dates themselves are somewhere else in the system... [EMAIL PROTECTED], or something like that? _That_ should be easy to compare, because it's a single chronological log, formatted like a set of emails. Granted, those are not exactly upload dates... But they're prolly closer to what you think you want to know. -- --- Paul "TBBle" Hampson, B.Sc, LPI, MCSE On-hiatus Asian Studies student, ANU The Boss, Bubblesworth Pty Ltd (ABN: 51 095 284 361) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course Pacman didn't influence us as kids. If it did, we'd be running around in darkened rooms, popping pills and listening to repetitive music. -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989 License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.1/au/ --- pgpGC4CCVmBnl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 03:11:23PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't > a technical reason, and the point of uniforming a timezone so that it's > easier to compare dates among different changelog is definitely a valid > one. It *is* easy to compare dates among different changelogs. zcat /usr/share/doc/*/changelog.Debian.gz | sed -e '/^ --/!d;s/^.*> //' | \ while read i; do date -d "$i" +%s; done | sort -n There, a sorted list of the unix timestamps of the dates on which *all* the changelog entries of *all* Debian packages on your system were done. Might take a while to run, though :) And heck, even if you're not a command line guru, normalizing an RFC822 date by hand isn't exactly hard. Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:40:46 +0100 ^ You didn't fail basic math, did you? ;-) -- Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On ma, 2007-04-02 at 19:26 +0100, Mark Brown wrote: > Given how easy it is to canonicalise the timestamp data, the fact that > it's data loss and the questionable utility of the information why is it > worth it? Maintaining status quo is easy. Making programs that compare timestamps understand time zones is easy. Having to mentally compare timestamps in different time zones is not always easy. Changing dch to use UTC for timestamps is easy. Getting people who edit debian/changelog by hand to always remember that it's UTC and not local time is not going work. My gut feeling is that there's more people who edit the timestamp manually than those who compare them mentally, so I'm in favor of maintaining status quo. The bikeshed should be pink, anyway. -- The difference between appealing and appalling is very small. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:57:09PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > > I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't > > a technical reason > > It's nice to know if an upload was made at 4:30 am local time, va 6 pm local > time. It says something about the possible condition of the uploader. It's pretty useless for that though, considering that there doesn't seem to be that much correlation between time-of-day and condition-of-uploader. Consider for example this particular person: http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/missing_the_deep_of_the_night.html --Jeroen -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357) http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't > a technical reason It's nice to know if an upload was made at 4:30 am local time, va 6 pm local time. It says something about the possible condition of the uploader. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 03:31:37PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: > That is not really a valid reason either because converting a timestamp > from a changelog entry to any other timezone or format is trivial: > > $ D="$(zgrep "^ -- " /usr/share/doc/apt/changelog.Debian.gz | \ > > head -1 | sed "s/^.*> //")" > $ date -uRd "$D" "Trivial" is something I can do without having the need of thinking about an implementation of it. I guess you spent a couple of minutes writing the above shell script snippet. But of course you're right in stating that it's possible and it's not a big deal to do the conversion. My question is: what's the benefit of localized timestamps? I want to know if the only reason we have is: "just because it's nice". -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy [EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ (15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the (15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:37:23PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: > > This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on > > debian-devel and debian-policy. > > CCing -devel. For -policy I think it is too early (usualy, common practice is > stablished before Policy enforces it). > > Also adding CC to analogous bug in dh-make, so that it can catch followups > from -devel. And debian-el too. Julian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Monday 02 April 2007 15:11, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't > a technical reason, and the point of uniforming a timezone so that it's > easier to compare dates among different changelog is definitely a valid > one. That is not really a valid reason either because converting a timestamp from a changelog entry to any other timezone or format is trivial: $ D="$(zgrep "^ -- " /usr/share/doc/apt/changelog.Debian.gz | \ > head -1 | sed "s/^.*> //")" $ echo $D Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:00:22 -0500 $ date -uRd "$D" Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:00:22 + Or if you prefer seconds since the epoch for easy comparison: $ date -d "$D" +%s 1172523622 pgpP3MLQzrgBr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Monday 02 April 2007 14:11, Christoph Berg wrote: > Re: Robert Millan 2007-04-02 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all > > > > over the world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make > > > > it easier to figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other > > > > events (such as the upload of a related package, etc). > > > > > > This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on > > > debian-devel and debian-policy. > > Oh no, please don't. The timezone is included in the timestamp, so it > is *meant* to be a local timestamp. > > I like it that way because that adds some personal touch about the > place the upload was made from. Also, using UTC-only destroys information, which is generally a Bad Thing, IMHO. Recalculating the timestamp to UTC or your own time zone isn't that hard, and can be done programmatically. -- Magnus Holmgren[EMAIL PROTECTED] (No Cc of list mail needed, thanks) "Exim is better at being younger, whereas sendmail is better for Scrabble (50 point bonus for clearing your rack)" -- Dave Evans pgpf9Q48GVeQM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 02:11:51PM +0200, Christoph Berg wrote: > > > > Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all > > > > over the > > > > world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make it easier to > > > > figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other events (such as > > > > the > > > > upload of a related package, etc). > > > This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on > > > debian-devel and debian-policy. > Oh no, please don't. The timezone is included in the timestamp, so it > is *meant* to be a local timestamp. > > I like it that way because that adds some personal touch about the > place the upload was made from. I share the feeling of "niceness" of the personal touch, but this isn't a technical reason, and the point of uniforming a timezone so that it's easier to compare dates among different changelog is definitely a valid one. If we only have to support "personal" timezones for the sake of it then it's equally reasonable to change the default so that it's UTC, but letting people override it in some way. A default of uniformness among DDs is arguably more sane that a default which differentiate that. Any other reason for not using UTC as the default? > See also > http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/what_timezones_have_you_uploaded_debian_packages_from.html So what? A nice post :), but it does not take any side in the present issue. Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy [EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ (15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the (15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 02:11:51PM +0200, Christoph Berg wrote: > Re: Robert Millan 2007-04-02 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all > > > > over the > > > > world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make it easier to > > > > figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other events (such as > > > > the > > > > upload of a related package, etc). > > > > > > This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on > > > debian-devel and debian-policy. > > Oh no, please don't. The timezone is included in the timestamp, so it > is *meant* to be a local timestamp. > > I like it that way because that adds some personal touch about the > place the upload was made from. *seconded* > > See also > http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/what_timezones_have_you_uploaded_debian_packages_from.html > > Christoph > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/ -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpWMZOJeIwyt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
Re: Robert Millan 2007-04-02 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all over > > > the > > > world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make it easier to > > > figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other events (such as the > > > upload of a related package, etc). > > > > This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on > > debian-devel and debian-policy. Oh no, please don't. The timezone is included in the timestamp, so it is *meant* to be a local timestamp. I like it that way because that adds some personal touch about the place the upload was made from. See also http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/what_timezones_have_you_uploaded_debian_packages_from.html Christoph -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#417262: Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 09:32:22AM +0100, Julian Gilbey wrote: > On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 09:48:13AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: > > Package: devscripts > > Version: 2.9.26 > > Severity: wishlist > > Tags: patch > > > > Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all over > > the > > world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make it easier to > > figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other events (such as the > > upload of a related package, etc). > > This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on > debian-devel and debian-policy. CCing -devel. For -policy I think it is too early (usualy, common practice is stablished before Policy enforces it). Also adding CC to analogous bug in dh-make, so that it can catch followups from -devel. -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 09:48:13AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: > Package: devscripts > Version: 2.9.26 > Severity: wishlist > Tags: patch > > Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all over the > world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make it easier to > figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other events (such as the > upload of a related package, etc). This is a nice idea. I think it should also be discussed on debian-devel and debian-policy. Julian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#417261: dch: please use dates in UTC
Package: devscripts Version: 2.9.26 Severity: wishlist Tags: patch Since dates written to changelogs are going to be read by people all over the world, IMHO it is better if these dates are in UTC to make it easier to figure out when it was uploaded in comparison to other events (such as the upload of a related package, etc). -- System Information: Debian Release: 4.0 APT prefers testing APT policy: (500, 'testing'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-amd64 Locale: LANG=ca_AD.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=ca_AD.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Versions of packages devscripts depends on: ii debianutils 2.17.2 Miscellaneous utilities specific t ii dpkg-dev1.13.25 package building tools for Debian ii libc6 2.3.6.ds1-13 GNU C Library: Shared libraries ii perl5.8.8-7 Larry Wall's Practical Extraction ii sed 4.1.5-1 The GNU sed stream editor Versions of packages devscripts recommends: ii fakeroot 1.5.10 Gives a fake root environment -- no debconf information --- devscripts-2.10.2/scripts/debchange.pl~ 2007-03-24 10:20:27.0 +0100 +++ devscripts-2.10.2/scripts/debchange.pl 2007-04-02 09:46:26.0 +0200 @@ -686,7 +686,7 @@ } # Get the date -chomp(my $DATE=`date -R`); +chomp(my $DATE=`date -uR`); # Are we going to have to figure things out for ourselves? if (! $opt_i && ! $opt_v && ! $opt_d && ! $opt_a && ! $opt_e && ! $opt_r &&
