Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
May I chime in? I'm currently installing a squeeze system, didn't bother using expert mode or fishing around for extra commands, and started the install, expecting to get a choice when selecting "desktop environment" in tasksel, and didn't really want to install a big desktop because it's a slow virtual machine on a USB disk. I totally agree with Stephane Ascoet that newbies are hardly likely to install Debian by themselves anyway. But even if they do, if Gnome is marked as default and there are no confusing descriptions (at most, I think they should say resource heavy/resource light), I don't think accepting the default would be a problem for beginners. So I vote ask everyone installing a desktop by default. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Thursday 27 August 2009, Rick Thomas wrote: > Why not a step in the installer menu (perhaps immediately prior to > tasksel) -- only displayed at "expert" priority -- that gives you a > selection list of available desktops -- pick one or more? That's not exactly a new thought. But if you're going to display a question anyway (at whatever priority), it really would be *much* cleaner to implement it in tasksel itself. For one thing, it is much more difficult for the installer to determine correctly which desktops are actually installable. Tasksel already contains all the functionality required for than. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Aug 27, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Frans Pop wrote:
On Thursday 27 August 2009, Joey Hess wrote:
I'm very suprised to see syslinux menus being used to offer a choice
amoung desktop environments.
It was discussed extensively when the functionality was implemented.
Most people were happy to at last have the option in *some* form, even
though far from optional. It is no more than a logical extension of
the
pre-existing option to preseed the desktop choice using desktop=X.
I'll be happy to remove all the "gunk" once there is a proper
implementation of desktop selection.
EOD for me.
I've been staying out of this discussion ("Do not meddle in the
affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and go well with ketchup.")
but it seems to me that there is an easy option that everybody is
overlooking.
Why not a step in the installer menu (perhaps immediately prior to
tasksel) -- only displayed at "expert" priority -- that gives you a
selection list of available desktops -- pick one or more? It would
then set the same options that pre-seeding would have set if it had
been used.
The introductory comment might say something like "The default is
gnome. If you don't understand the question, gnome is a good choice."
There's probably something I don't understand that makes this
impossible, but it's *got* to be better than the present stand-off, it
seems to me.
Rick
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Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Thursday 27 August 2009, Joey Hess wrote: > I'm very suprised to see syslinux menus being used to offer a choice > amoung desktop environments. It was discussed extensively when the functionality was implemented. Most people were happy to at last have the option in *some* form, even though far from optional. It is no more than a logical extension of the pre-existing option to preseed the desktop choice using desktop=X. I'll be happy to remove all the "gunk" once there is a proper implementation of desktop selection. EOD for me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
I'm very suprised to see syslinux menus being used to offer a choice amoung desktop environments. This subverts d-i's design principles on several levels: 1. It's a fundamental principle of d-i's UI design that we ask questions using debconf. And the clumsiness of this syslinux menu UI for selecting desktops is a good example of why that was a good design choice[*]. (BTW, we're overusing kernel boot options too these days.) 2. A goal of d-i from the very beginning has been modularity and generallty; this requires a lot of non-modular, and barely maintainable syslinux menu gunk, that only works on i386 and amd64. 3. A goal of d-i from the very beginning has been to try to entice package maintainers to be involved in d-i and responsible for d-i's use of their package, in the knowledge that the d-i team can't do everything themselves. This is why we have udebs, and a passthrough debconf frontend allowing packages interact with the user within d-i. But here d-i is overriding choices made in a package. FYI, it's disingenuous to say "Joey made this desision (re tasksel) and we did this to work around him." Firstly, that alienates me from this project. Secondly, I am not some rock that makes pronoucements by fiat that the project is then responsible for working around; and I don't appreciate being portrayed that way. Finally, the argument regarding the problem of forcing user choice of desktop environments stands on its own and has been made by others than me, with similar conclusions, both in Debian and outside. BTW, I am stunned that SuSE is being dragged in as an example of good UI choice. -- see shy jo [*] I suspect I understand syslinux slightly better than the average user, yet I was confused and startled by the behavior of the desktop menu -- choosing a desktop appeared at first to dump me back into the top menu with no action. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Saturday 22 August 2009, Fathi Boudra wrote: > We should revisit Joey's argument. Personally, I agree with you. But I do feel the choice should only be offered if it is done correctly. And that means someone will need to invest a significant amount of time to implement it. Here are my thoughts on how selection of a desktop environment (DE) could be done in a responsible way. The main limitation for any implementation is debconf. When a user is offered a list of choices, there is *very* little space to explain the choices. And I agree with Joey that just showing * GNOME * KDE * Xfce * LXDE is going to confuse the hell out of newbies, _even_ if you add short descriptions after them. Colin Watson has recently implemented a "help" option in _c_debconf, which could be a solution to that, as the user could then get a help screen with any amount of additional info about the desktops. BUT, tasksel runs in the /target chroot, and we're still using debconf there. There has been progress towards getting cdebconf ready for the installed system, but AFAIK that's still some way off. So, maybe getting cdebconf ready for the installed system should be a blocker for this? Also, the user should only be offered DEs *that are actually available and installable*. For example, if the user installs from full CD1 and does not add a mirror during apt-setup, only GNOME will be available and thus that should be installed automatically. (c)debconf does not support nested choices in a single dialog, so we'd have to decide how to offer the choice of desktops: - keep the current tasks dialog as it is and add a second dialog after that which is only shown if "graphical desktop environment" was selected on the first (maybe only at medium/low priority?); - list all available DEs in existing main tasksel dialog, together with the server tasks. We'd also have to decide whether to allow the user to choose only one or multiple DEs (with the second option above selection of multiple would be the only possibility!). Finally, IMO the check for available diskspace would need to be improved, especially if we allow selection of multiple DEs. Currently we check for a fixed value, but the different DEs require very different amount of disk space. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
> We may not have a task ATM, but the user *can* choose which desktop to > install from the installer's boot menu (for i386/amd64). See: > http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/i386/ch06s03.html.en#di-install-software > > Some CD images (businesscard, netinst and DVD) also allow selection > of the desired desktop environment from the graphical boot menu. > Select the “Advanced options” option in the main menu and look for > “Alternative desktop environments”. > > This is not ideal, but a lot better than we had for Etch. I agree, it's a lot better and I would like to go further. With Lenny, the option exists but it's hidden in a menu. > The rationale for that implementation can be found in this thread: > http://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2008/12/msg00019.html I'm quoting the main point behind the rationale: [...] [1] A bit of background info. One could wonder why this is being done in the isolinux boot menu rather than during the installation, e.g. in tasksel. The simple reason is that Joey Hess, the lead developer for tasksel, has always been opposed to doing it in tasksel with as main argument that tasksel is mostly for new users who are probably not aware of what DEs exist and thus would only be confused when having to choose between meaningless names as GNOME, KDE, etc. One could argue about the validity of that argument, or about implementing it so that the option would only be available for "expert" users, but the fact remains that tasksel currently does not support DE selection. But users do regularly keep asking about it. One reason I have chosen to "hide" DE selection in the "Advanced options" menu instead of in the main boot menu is to honor Joey's feelings about this: I think that this way it is buried deep enough not to confuse new users, while still being easily enough available to users who go looking for it. Still, the option to support DE selection in the boot menu can be seen as a workaround for the fact that it's missing in tasksel. [...] We should revisit Joey's argument. The posted links about opensuse decision makes me think the argument isn't valid. Another distribution, more desktop oriented and probably more "user-friendly" than us, gives the choice in his installer. There's still a default value for the new users who are probably not aware of DEs existence. opensuse installer proves their OS can be installed in less than 10 clicks and don't annoy newbies. Aren't we the universal OS ? aren't we a distribution for all ? The main desktops should be considered equal citizens and not give privilege to one of them. Maybe we should ask our users about it and let them express their opinions (a feature tracking system like openFATE), instead of thinking for them (user interaction). It seems my link about seele's blog post is down. Please found below a copy: [...] A recent LWN article (subscription required) on the openSUSE desktop debate has an excellent quote from user Naheem Zaffar: “Choice is only good if you are informed enough to exercise it.” Those of you who may have read Barry Schwartz’ “The Paradox of Choice” may already be familiar with the idea of choice paralysis though information overload. One of the reasons I’ve stayed out of the conversation is that I feel that openSUSE should not offer a choice at all. Not supporting “freedom of choice” is a very controversial position to take in a free software community, but many fail to realise how much “choice” can hurt a user. The current design places a burden on the user. Two options of seemingly equal importance are presented and the user is asked to make a choice. This choice requires the user to be knowledgeable enough about each option to make a decision. Normally, defaults help guide the user in making a decision. Having one selected by default is helpful, but this “hint” is offset by the purposeful neutral presence of an alternative. The list is in alphabetical order and not order of importance and both options have the same visual treatment. How can the user know that the selected option is the best option for them and not simply the first item on the list? This isn’t very user friendly. An argument might be made that this is a good opportunity for openSUSE to help educate users about the technology choices. However, can that really be done in a 150 word paragraph without screenshots or feature lists? Is this something the user wants to do in the middle of an installation process? Providing such a small amount of information might actually increase the burden, because now the user may realise how little they actually know about the choice they are about to make. Additionally, there is evidence which shows that 2/3 of openSUSE’s userbase are not using the current default. Possibly meaning that during 2/3 of openSUSE installations, users must change the default. This seems unnecessary and inefficient and induces an opportunity for users to make a mistake. This doesn’t sound very usable. What to do? I would
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
We may not have a task ATM, but the user *can* choose which desktop to install from the installer's boot menu (for i386/amd64). See: http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/i386/ch06s03.html.en#di-install-software Some CD images (businesscard, netinst and DVD) also allow selection of the desired desktop environment from the graphical boot menu. Select the “Advanced options” option in the main menu and look for “Alternative desktop environments”. This is not ideal, but a lot better than we had for Etch. The rationale for that implementation can be found in this thread: http://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2008/12/msg00019.html Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
Hi, Let's re-discuss the situation as Lenny is released. On another front, the situation changed for opensuse (see my previous mail on the bug report). Below, you'll find some links about it and I think it's the way to go: http://lwn.net/Articles/345139/ http://en.opensuse.org/Image:11_1-install-006.png http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html and also an interesting point of view: http://weblog.obso1337.org/2009/when-choice-becomes-a-burden/ cheers, Fathi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Friday 09 January 2009 17:18:42 Ana Guerrero wrote: > I hope the website is a bit clearer now. Still have to update the > instructions for lenny. done. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:12:12AM +, Philip Hands wrote:
>
> KDE Folks,
> Might I suggest that the front page be modified to have a link somewhere
> prominent, near the top, linking to the page about how to get KDE
> installed on debian
>
> Also, you should note that in Lenny the default desktop can be set by
> adding:
>
> desktop=kde
>
> at the boot prompt (which you can get to by hitting in the boot menu.
>
> Also, note that "desktop" in that case is an alias for
> tasksel:tasksel/desktop
> so it can also be preseeded by providing a line like:
>
> tasksel tasksel/desktop string kde
>
> in a preseed file, so you could produce custom KDE media either by tweaking
> the
> {sys,iso,pxe}linux.cfg files to include "desktop=kde", or by adding a
> preseed.cfg
> to the root of your initrd image, containing the above line.
>
I hope the website is a bit clearer now. Still have to update the instructions
for lenny.
Ana
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Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
Hi,
IMHO, it's too late to change things now for Lenny. But I guess, we'll need to
re-discuss the situation after Lenny release for KDE 4 series.
Especially when I read this:
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3416
and the nice screenshot here:
http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.0beta1-inst7.png
> That said, anyone that _has_ heard of KDE should find all they want to
> know here:
>
> http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde3.html
>
> on the other hand, I'd guess that Debian newbies are most likely to end up
> here:
>
> http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/
>
> which does not appear to have a direct link to the installing page.
The link exist: on the left, in the menu, under "Try KDE!", "KDE 3.5" is the
direct link to http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde3.html
> KDE Folks,
> Might I suggest that the front page be modified to have a link somewhere
> prominent, near the top, linking to the page about how to get KDE
> installed on debian
>
> Also, you should note that in Lenny the default desktop can be set by
> adding:
>
> desktop=kde
>
> at the boot prompt (which you can get to by hitting in the boot
> menu.
>
> Also, note that "desktop" in that case is an alias for
> tasksel:tasksel/desktop so it can also be preseeded by providing a line
> like:
>
> tasksel tasksel/desktop string kde
>
> in a preseed file, so you could produce custom KDE media either by
> tweaking the {sys,iso,pxe}linux.cfg files to include "desktop=kde", or by
> adding a preseed.cfg to the root of your initrd image, containing the above
> line.
Thanks, we will update the instructions for Lenny.
cheers,
Fathi
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Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:11:13AM +0100, Noel David Torres Ta??o wrote:
...
> Well, I'll left it closed, but I was thinking in how newbie users accustomed
> to KDE
> would install a Debian KDE computer without them being asked all the 'low'
> questions
> and without having to type anything when they're asked for "graphical or
> text-mode" install.
>
> XFCE was not the point, but the "extra goal". I knew how to do it for myself,
> I was thinking in future Debian users.
Ah, that's a slightly different point.
The fact that the installer installs Gnome by default is a consequence
of the generally accepted fact that some default -- any default -- is
better than none, especially for people who have heard of neither KDE,
Gnome, XFCE or anything else.
That said, anyone that _has_ heard of KDE should find all they want to
know here:
http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde3.html
on the other hand, I'd guess that Debian newbies are most likely to end up here:
http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/
which does not appear to have a direct link to the installing page.
KDE Folks,
Might I suggest that the front page be modified to have a link somewhere
prominent, near the top, linking to the page about how to get KDE
installed on debian
Also, you should note that in Lenny the default desktop can be set by adding:
desktop=kde
at the boot prompt (which you can get to by hitting in the boot menu.
Also, note that "desktop" in that case is an alias for tasksel:tasksel/desktop
so it can also be preseeded by providing a line like:
tasksel tasksel/desktop string kde
in a preseed file, so you could produce custom KDE media either by tweaking
the
{sys,iso,pxe}linux.cfg files to include "desktop=kde", or by adding a
preseed.cfg
to the root of your initrd image, containing the above line.
Cheers, Phil.
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Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
Le vendredi 9 janvier 2009 11:11:13 Noel David Torres Taño, vous avez écrit : > Well, I'll left it closed, but I was thinking in how newbie users > accustomed to KDE would install a Debian KDE computer without them being > asked all the 'low' questions and without having to type anything when > they're asked for "graphical or text-mode" install. He would simply download the KDE CD [0], same for XFCE. > XFCE was not the point, but the "extra goal". I knew how to do it for > myself, I was thinking in future Debian users. You should read the last "Bits from the Debian CD team" [1] in debian-devel-announce that tells: > Selection of desktop environment from boot menu for i386 and amd64 > -- > For i386 and amd64 images it is now possible to select which desktop > environment to install from the boot menu. The default desktop > environment is still GNOME, but an alternative desktop environment can > be selected from the "Advanced options" menu. And this for Lenny. > Thanks > > Noel > er Envite Regards, OdyX [0]http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r6/i386/iso-cd/debian-40r6-i386-kde-CD-1.iso [1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2009/01/msg2.html -- Didier Raboud, proud Debian user. CH-1802 Corseaux did...@raboud.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
On Friday 09 January 2009 10:10:37 Philip Hands wrote: > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 09:44:43AM +0100, Noel David Torres Ta??o wrote: > > Package: debian-installer > > Severity: wishlist > > > > > > debian-installer for Lenny should have a desktop selector if the "Desktop" > > task is chosen, or separate tasks for at least KDE and Gnome, and better if > > for XFCE as well. > > Offering every combination of preference under the sun by default has > been deemed newbie hostile. > > Given that you're interested in installing XFCE, I'm guessing you're > not a newbie. That being the case, one might be forgiven for assuming > that searching for something like: > >debian-installer xfce > > via google would be something that might be reasonable to expect. > > If you do that, you'll find that the first page you come to is: > >http://wiki.debian.org/DebianXFCE > > which explains that you just have to add: > >desktop=xfce > > to the kernel command line to change that default. > > If you were wanting to customise some media to enable that to be the > default, this allows you to edit the syslinux.cfg (or isolinux.cfg or > whatever) file adding the "desktop=xfce" string to all the kernel command > lines and the job is done -- no need to rebuild the main CD image. > > If you want a route to getting a prompt about this, another way of getting > there would be to do an expert install, which would mean that the debconf > minimum question priority would be dropped to "low" and you'd be prompted > for the default desktop -- unfortunately this would also mean that you're > prompted for about a thousand other things that you probably don't care > about at all, so would be a tiresome way of getting what you want. > > Given that the feature is already there I'm closing this bug -- hope that's > OK. > > Cheers, Phil. > Well, I'll left it closed, but I was thinking in how newbie users accustomed to KDE would install a Debian KDE computer without them being asked all the 'low' questions and without having to type anything when they're asked for "graphical or text-mode" install. XFCE was not the point, but the "extra goal". I knew how to do it for myself, I was thinking in future Debian users. Thanks Noel er Envite signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Bug#511287: debian-installer: Should have a task for installing KDE or XFCE instead of Gnome
Package: debian-installer Severity: wishlist debian-installer for Lenny should have a desktop selector if the "Desktop" task is chosen, or separate tasks for at least KDE and Gnome, and better if for XFCE as well. -- System Information: Debian Release: 5.0 APT prefers testing APT policy: (990, 'testing'), (500, 'testing-proposed-updates'), (500, 'proposed-updates'), (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'stable'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 (SMP w/2 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=es_ES.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=es_ES.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
