Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Christian PERRIER wrote: This recently came up on the fsf-collab list. Here are my thoughts on appropriate wording: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/fsf-collab-discuss/2012-August/000200.html Obviously that's rather long given character constraints in the installer's debconf messages. But it could be a starting point for discussion. Post-wheezy, of course..:-) Certainly :) All of the potential FSF-freeness stuff will need to wait until after wheezy's release. And by shortening the text quite strongly (I think the first two paragraphs are enough: the rest belongs to freeness zealotism -no offense intended, I happen to be a zealot, too). Well, the goal with that wording was to concurrently try to meet the FSF's requirements to be on their free distributions list (the requirement that non-free dialog's need to contain information on why it should be avoided if possible) while being intellectually honest with the user about their real options (i.e giving them enough information to be able to reach their own freeness conclusions). I think providing a well-rounded perspective is good in that includes the zealot perspective as well as the pragmatists, and leaves it up to the user to reach their own well-informed decision. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
Stefan Nagy pub...@stefan-nagy.at writes: Am Mittwoch, den 15.08.2012, 20:21 +0200 schrieb Bjørn Mork: The driver firmware request is required to enable those who want to load the optional firmware. Just ignore it if you don't want to. I'm not saying debian installer shouldn't recommend / ask for non-free firmware at all [1] but I do care about my freedom as software user. My notebook has an Intel WLAN adapter and a Realtek NIC – debian installer tells me in both cases that my hardware needs proprietary software to operate even if the consequences of not installing the non-free firmware are completely different. My WLAN adapter doesn't work at all when I decide not to install the firmware. I don't think that it's a good solution to seperate non-free firmware just to tell users to provide it while installation process. In my opinion debian (installer) should provide more information about the concrete consequences of not installing a specific firmware file: Will the device work at all? What are the probable limitations? Debian (installer) should enable users to make a decision here. Instead right now it seems like the safe way in each and every case is to install proprietary firmware – and everyone who decides not to install it is on his/her own. This is just my opinion (and that's why I reported this bug with severity: wishlist). This makes a lot of sense and I do agree with your view. But unless I miss something, I don't think it is currently possible for the installer to implement anything like this. The kernel firmware interface allow the drivers to request firmware, but there is no way for the firmware loader to know what the driver will do if the request fails. In some cases the driver will just continue, possibly with reduced functionality or known firmware bugs unpatched, in other cases the driver will attempt to load alternate firmware. And in quite a few cases, the driver cannot continue because the device requires the loadable firmware to function at all. Like your WLAN card. The driver will know these differences, but the firmware loader (and therefore the installer) will not. So your wishlist should go to the upstream kernel developers. Maybe the request_firmware API should be extended to indicate the drivers failure mode to the loader, allowing the loader to present this information to the end user? Bjørn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
Package: debian-installer Severity: wishlist Tags: d-i Dear Maintainer, I have a notebook with a realtek nic which doesn't need any non-free firmware files to operate. However, debian installer requests me to install non-free firmware. It doesn't make any difference if I install it or reject the request – the network adapter just works. Debian installer shouldn't ask me to install non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it. My hardware: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168B PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet controller [10ec:8168] (rev 06) Firmware file which debian installer requests: rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw -- System Information: Debian Release: wheezy/sid APT prefers testing APT policy: (500, 'testing') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Kernel: Linux 3.2.0-3-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=de_AT.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=de_AT.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
On Wed 15 Aug 2012 at 10:30:06 +0200, Stefan Nagy wrote: [I sent to debian-boot and forgot to Cc: the bug] Package: debian-installer Severity: wishlist Tags: d-i Dear Maintainer, I have a notebook with a realtek nic which doesn't need any non-free firmware files to operate. However, debian installer requests me to install non-free firmware. It doesn't make any difference if I install it or reject the request – the network adapter just works. Debian installer shouldn't ask me to install non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it. What else can the installer do other than pass on the request from the kernel? Please don't shoot the messenger. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
Am Mittwoch, den 15.08.2012, 11:53 +0100 schrieb Brian Potkin: What else can the installer do other than pass on the request from the kernel? Please don't shoot the messenger. Sorry – I wasn't sure to which package this bug belongs… Could you reassign it please? Thanks, Stefan. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
Stefan Nagy pub...@stefan-nagy.at writes: I have a notebook with a realtek nic which doesn't need any non-free firmware files to operate. However, debian installer requests me to install non-free firmware. It doesn't make any difference if I install it or reject the request – the network adapter just works. Debian installer shouldn't ask me to install non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it. You cannot know that it works just as well. The firmware may enable additional features you don't use, or which does not matter to your usage pattern. Or the firmware fixes known bugs which you just haven't hit or which you didn't know you were hitting. Both of these are quite common for network adapter firmware. My hardware: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168B PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet controller [10ec:8168] (rev 06) Firmware file which debian installer requests: rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw I believe this works exactly as intended. The adapter does function without the firmware and the driver allows you to continue using it even if the firmware load fails, thereby enabling you to complete the installation and download the firmware if acceptable. The driver firmware request is required to enable those who want to load the optional firmware. Just ignore it if you don't want to. Bjørn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
Am Mittwoch, den 15.08.2012, 20:21 +0200 schrieb Bjørn Mork: The driver firmware request is required to enable those who want to load the optional firmware. Just ignore it if you don't want to. I'm not saying debian installer shouldn't recommend / ask for non-free firmware at all [1] but I do care about my freedom as software user. My notebook has an Intel WLAN adapter and a Realtek NIC – debian installer tells me in both cases that my hardware needs proprietary software to operate even if the consequences of not installing the non-free firmware are completely different. My WLAN adapter doesn't work at all when I decide not to install the firmware. I don't think that it's a good solution to seperate non-free firmware just to tell users to provide it while installation process. In my opinion debian (installer) should provide more information about the concrete consequences of not installing a specific firmware file: Will the device work at all? What are the probable limitations? Debian (installer) should enable users to make a decision here. Instead right now it seems like the safe way in each and every case is to install proprietary firmware – and everyone who decides not to install it is on his/her own. This is just my opinion (and that's why I reported this bug with severity: wishlist). [1] http://tinyurl.com/bp6pz9b signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Stefan Nagy wrote: Debian (installer) should enable users to make a decision here. Instead right now it seems like the safe way in each and every case is to install proprietary firmware – and everyone who decides not to install it is on his/her own. This is just my opinion (and that's why I reported this bug with severity: wishlist). This recently came up on the fsf-collab list. Here are my thoughts on appropriate wording: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/fsf-collab-discuss/2012-August/000200.html Obviously that's rather long given character constraints in the installer's debconf messages. But it could be a starting point for discussion. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#684968: debian-installer: requests non-free firmware for a device that works just as well without it
Quoting Michael Gilbert (mgilb...@debian.org): On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Stefan Nagy wrote: Debian (installer) should enable users to make a decision here. Instead right now it seems like the safe way in each and every case is to install proprietary firmware – and everyone who decides not to install it is on his/her own. This is just my opinion (and that's why I reported this bug with severity: wishlist). This recently came up on the fsf-collab list. Here are my thoughts on appropriate wording: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/fsf-collab-discuss/2012-August/000200.html Obviously that's rather long given character constraints in the installer's debconf messages. But it could be a starting point for discussion. Post-wheezy, of course..:-) And by shortening the text quite strongly (I think the first two paragraphs are enough: the rest belongs to freeness zealotism -no offense intended, I happen to be a zealot, too). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
