Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
Here is a more complete but quick summary of my points and of my story,
after more reading and thinking.
Unless I'm asked for information, this will probably be my last message.
First, something I forgot to say, Debian Installer is a marvelous
program, kudos !!!
I mean it much (that's why I write all this).
- Debian installer requests that other systems boot by PBR (chain
loading) but does not do it itself by default.
- It presents PBR boot as a valid option, but grub-install calls it a
VERY BAD idea (Richmond's idea?)
- Richmond's OS bootloader seems a good idea: it perfectly works since
the 1980s and is never heard of but Grub makes an abundant user
literature, mostly about problems.
- A self contained PBR OS bootloader as simple as Richmond's is the
essence of my suggestion, in particular to allow easy recovery, in
addition to whatever other possible booting one may use.
- It may use simpler software than Grub but Grub is OK if it works and
if it's invisible (not to fiddle with).
- In particular, it should not require to contain the UUID of its own
partition. Using UUID=0 or some other magic number to indicate
"myself", also valuable in /etc/fstab, is a suggestion I made in an
Ubuntu bug, but it has been closed repeatedly.
- The installation DVD should contain a menu entry to repair the
booters. Presently, I found a help.ubuntu article instructing to boot
the Desktop liveDVD and either to install/run (needing Internet) a
package that is not found or to run grub-install which is certainly not
for the average user and did not work in a Virtualbox Virtual Machine.
- Using an extra, intermediate partition (the, as Windows usually leaves
one) is indeed a good solution because everyone agrees with it. In fact,
it's what I was using on my previous computer with Grub1. But it should
be done by the installer, not by the user, of course. Why I did not
continue that way is because Grub2 complicates things. I don't know it
and I don't want to learn it (more than Richmond's), there are many
other more useful and pleasing things to learn.
- as a side note, I'm using no swap partition but swapspace (Richmond's
too). I have a feeling that putting the swapspace in the middle of the
data means less disk seeks. The installer might propose to install it as
an alternative to the swap partition.
My story, Debian should make an everybody's story more simple:
- installed GAG and copied working PBR-booting partition from old
system. It displays "GRUB " and stalls.
- installed Ubuntu 12.04 that destroyed GAG
- reinstalled GAG and U 12.04 with PBR bootloader
- 12.04's Grub would boot 10.04, had to upgrade GRUB1 and grub-install
to have it boot directly.
- configured VirtualBox to run GAG + 10.04 in a virtually mapped real
partition.
- created more U 12.04 partitions with PBR boot
- this was a complete mixup: all partitions except 10.04 were presenting
the same Grub menu and the labeling of the partitions was confusing. The
only way to understand was my own partition-what index but two labels
referred to sda7 (one instead of sda8).
- I finally gave up and installed Grub on MBR.
- my main system was, of course, in the middle of the menu but I guessed
that reinstalling grub from it would put it on top and it did. Speaking
of mixup, I noticed that most recent GRUB2's labels no longer indicate
neither partition number nor OS version.
- after that, I noticed that the 10.04 partition no longer boots in
VirtualBox ("GRUB " again): it looks like MBR GRUB2 destroyed it.
- that remains on my very long todo list.
(1) a partition may boot by MBR on the real disk and by PBR on a mapped
partition on Virtualbox.
Thanks again
Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
> DI asks if you want to install grub into the MBR of the disk or a > partition, and if you select to install it into your Linux partition, > it tells you that tis is a bad idea and refuses to do it :-( What DI does depends on what's on the disk before it installs Linux, principally if it thinks that it's installing a single or multiple systems disk. In the case I speak of, there was a multiboot on the MBR and an empty partition prepared to receive Linux. DI silently erased the MBR that contained something and left empty the PBR that contained nothing.
Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
On 2013-05-27 19:15, Lennart Sorensen wrote : > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:35:33AM +0200, André Pirard wrote: >> Package: debian-installer >> >> Short, practical, typical story: Mr X followed good advices. >> - He installed the so nice and easy to understand GAG multi-boot >> - He installed the so nice Debian system or derivative >> He followed the "normal", by default installation options and Debian >> wiped out GAG. >> He reinstalled GAG but he could not configure it to boot Debian. >> He found dozens and dozens of even worse horror stories: many people had >> lost access to their running Debian system after many hours of service. >> >> Conclusion #1 : a partition containing a Debian (or any) system MUST >> ALWAYS contain an OS bootloader (Grub) activated by loading the PBR even >> if (in addition to) another means to boot Debian is initially used, so that: >> - Debian booting can be restored by normal booting methods and tools >> - Debian can continue to boot if the partition is copied (to another drive) >> - etc. > Not all filesystems allow that. What filesystems don't? (1) #1 is an IBM PC specification for a partition to be bootable. Do you mean that because some systems (if any) "don't allow that", the majority (if not all) that allow it shouldn't use that obviously very interesting method? > Of course you are allowed to create a dedicated partition for the > bootloader, mount it as /boot/grub and flag it bootable and install > grub there. Are you saying that the Debian installer is only for geeks? > Of course UEFI systems booted in UEFI mode would already use a > dedicated boot partition for the boot loaders. You're saying it: UEFI does not allow an OS boot loader on a global MBR but only on private partition space, be it a PBR or another specification. >> Conclusion #2: installing the Grub OS bootloader on the MBR is a bad >> idea: one cannot have each kind of systems on a disk install its own >> different OS bootloader on the same MBR and erase the others. >> If multi-boot or booting a logical partition is needed, an independent, >> graphical and easy to use program like GAG is ideal. >> The Debian liveCD should have an option to install one or repair it (in >> start menu or during installation). >> The only hindrance of GAG is that is must be configured by moving icons >> to its main window before working. >> It would be much easier if the main window were pre-populated with all >> icons for every partitions, with options to modify an icon, erase it, >> reorder it or move it aside (test boot, reset PC, configure and save >> what has just been tested, loop) > For most users it is the best place for a boot loader. Certainly not. The web is full of horror stories of crashed systems being repaired with the method I describe. > Most OSs you can install do this. Windows just does it. (1) Are you saying that if you install DOS, Windows, OS/2 and BSD each will write their own MBR ? Certainly not. DOS, OS/2 and Windows all use an OS loader within their partition and they work with a standard MBR record. What do you think their FIXMBR command is doing and why it's called FIX? OpenBSD too and FYI they wrote a clear explanation of the boot process that's both standard and theirs: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#Boot386 Only Linux is preferred by Linuxians not to be bootable the normal way and to crash when the others do what's prescribed. > Debian asks if you want to install to the MBR. I think I explained that Debian install erased GAG in the MBR without any warning. In fact, what I'm saying has been written in many Web pages by persons fed up with helping others to repair time bombed Linux systems and transform them to rock solid systems the way I say. The most amazing is that I can no longer find the page that explained that on doc.ubuntu-fr.org. And that if you read carefully http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Multiple_OS_Installation, they speak of an option to install Grub on both MBR and PBR. Whatever the contents you choose for the MBR, the PBR should not be left empty but should be filled with a bootloader.
Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
On 2013-05-27 19:15, Lennart Sorensen wrote : On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:35:33AM +0200, André Pirard wrote: Package: debian-installer Short, practical, typical story: Mr X followed good advices. - He installed the so nice and easy to understand GAG multi-boot - He installed the so nice Debian system or derivative He followed the "normal", by default installation options and Debian wiped out GAG. He reinstalled GAG but he could not configure it to boot Debian. He found dozens and dozens of even worse horror stories: many people had lost access to their running Debian system after many hours of service. Conclusion #1 : a partition containing a Debian (or any) system MUST ALWAYS contain an OS bootloader (Grub) activated by loading the PBR even if (in addition to) another means to boot Debian is initially used, so that: - Debian booting can be restored by normal booting methods and tools - Debian can continue to boot if the partition is copied (to another drive) - etc. Not all filesystems allow that. What filesystems don't? (1) #1 is an IBM PC specification for a partition to be bootable. Do you mean that because some systems (if any) "don't allow that", the majority (if not all) that allow it shouldn't use that obviously very interesting method? Of course you are allowed to create a dedicated partition for the bootloader, mount it as /boot/grub and flag it bootable and install grub there. Are you saying that the Debian installer is only for geeks? Of course UEFI systems booted in UEFI mode would already use a dedicated boot partition for the boot loaders. You're saying it: UEFI does not allow an OS boot loader on a global MBR but only on private partition space, be it a PBR or another specification. Conclusion #2: installing the Grub OS bootloader on the MBR is a bad idea: one cannot have each kind of systems on a disk install its own different OS bootloader on the same MBR and erase the others. If multi-boot or booting a logical partition is needed, an independent, graphical and easy to use program like GAG is ideal. The Debian liveCD should have an option to install one or repair it (in start menu or during installation). The only hindrance of GAG is that is must be configured by moving icons to its main window before working. It would be much easier if the main window were pre-populated with all icons for every partitions, with options to modify an icon, erase it, reorder it or move it aside (test boot, reset PC, configure and save what has just been tested, loop) For most users it is the best place for a boot loader. Certainly not. The web is full of horror stories of crashed systems being repaired with the method I describe. Most OSs you can install do this. Windows just does it. (1) Are you saying that if you install DOS, Windows, OS/2 and BSD each will write their own MBR ? Certainly not. DOS, OS/2 and Windows all use an OS loader within their partition and they work with a standard MBR record. What do you think their FIXMBR command is doing and why it's called FIX? OpenBSD too and FYI they wrote a clear explanation of the boot process that's both standard and theirs: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#Boot386 Only Linux is preferred by Linuxians not to be bootable the normal way and to crash when the others do what's prescribed. Debian asks if you want to install to the MBR. I think I explained that Debian install erased GAG in the MBR without any warning. In fact, what I'm saying has been written in many Web pages by persons fed up with helping others to repair time bombed Linux systems and transform them to rock solid systems the way I say. The most amazing is that I can no longer find the page that explained that on doc.ubuntu-fr.org. And that if you read carefully http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Multiple_OS_Installation, they speak of an option to install Grub on both MBR and PBR. Whatever the contents you choose for the MBR, the PBR should not be left empty but should be filled with a bootloader. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
On Mon, 27 May 2013 13:15:50 -0400 "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: [...] > Debian asks if you want to install to the MBR. DI asks if you want to install grub into the MBR of the disk or a partition, and if you select to install it into your Linux partition, it tells you that tis is a bad idea and refuses to do it :-( Herbert -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:35:33AM +0200, André Pirard wrote: > Package: debian-installer > > Short, practical, typical story: Mr X followed good advices. > - He installed the so nice and easy to understand GAG multi-boot > - He installed the so nice Debian system or derivative > He followed the "normal", by default installation options and Debian > wiped out GAG. > He reinstalled GAG but he could not configure it to boot Debian. > He found dozens and dozens of even worse horror stories: many people had > lost access to their running Debian system after many hours of service. > > Conclusion #1 : a partition containing a Debian (or any) system MUST > ALWAYS contain an OS bootloader (Grub) activated by loading the PBR even > if (in addition to) another means to boot Debian is initially used, so that: > - Debian booting can be restored by normal booting methods and tools > - Debian can continue to boot if the partition is copied (to another drive) > - etc. Not all filesystems allow that. Of course you are allowed to create a dedicated partition for the bootloader, mount it as /boot/grub and flag it bootable and install grub there. Of course UEFI systems booted in UEFI mode would already use a dedicated boot partition for the boot loaders. > Conclusion #2: installing the Grub OS bootloader on the MBR is a bad > idea: one cannot have each kind of systems on a disk install its own > different OS bootloader on the same MBR and erase the others. > If multi-boot or booting a logical partition is needed, an independent, > graphical and easy to use program like GAG is ideal. > The Debian liveCD should have an option to install one or repair it (in > start menu or during installation). > The only hindrance of GAG is that is must be configured by moving icons > to its main window before working. > It would be much easier if the main window were pre-populated with all > icons for every partitions, with options to modify an icon, erase it, > reorder it or move it aside (test boot, reset PC, configure and save > what has just been tested, loop) For most users it is the best place for a boot loader. Most OSs you can install do this. Debian asks if you want to install to the MBR. Windows just does it. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#709843: Partition PBR must always have an OS bootloader (grub)
Package: debian-installer Short, practical, typical story: Mr X followed good advices. - He installed the so nice and easy to understand GAG multi-boot - He installed the so nice Debian system or derivative He followed the "normal", by default installation options and Debian wiped out GAG. He reinstalled GAG but he could not configure it to boot Debian. He found dozens and dozens of even worse horror stories: many people had lost access to their running Debian system after many hours of service. Conclusion #1 : a partition containing a Debian (or any) system MUST ALWAYS contain an OS bootloader (Grub) activated by loading the PBR even if (in addition to) another means to boot Debian is initially used, so that: - Debian booting can be restored by normal booting methods and tools - Debian can continue to boot if the partition is copied (to another drive) - etc. Conclusion #2: installing the Grub OS bootloader on the MBR is a bad idea: one cannot have each kind of systems on a disk install its own different OS bootloader on the same MBR and erase the others. If multi-boot or booting a logical partition is needed, an independent, graphical and easy to use program like GAG is ideal. The Debian liveCD should have an option to install one or repair it (in start menu or during installation). The only hindrance of GAG is that is must be configured by moving icons to its main window before working. It would be much easier if the main window were pre-populated with all icons for every partitions, with options to modify an icon, erase it, reorder it or move it aside (test boot, reset PC, configure and save what has just been tested, loop)
