Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:50:54 + Steven Chamberlain ste...@pyro.eu.org wrote: The sysvinit page doesn't have a specific maintainer/advocate. It is a collection of opinions from discussion on debian-devel@ and elsewhere. Other camps have already responded to parts they don't agree with. Unless any volunteers want to make last-minute small changes, it can probably be taken as 'complete' as soon the tech-ctte is ready to move forward with this. I think maintainers of all the other proposals have said they are ready now. Thanks, Regards, There were elements in form of conversation, and I have made some changes, but didn't want to erase what other people wrote, so now there more elements in form of conversation. Should they be merged (calculate resultant)? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
The sysvinit page doesn't have a specific maintainer/advocate. It is a collection of opinions from discussion on debian-devel@ and elsewhere. Other camps have already responded to parts they don't agree with. Unless any volunteers want to make last-minute small changes, it can probably be taken as 'complete' as soon the tech-ctte is ready to move forward with this. I think maintainers of all the other proposals have said they are ready now. Thanks, Regards, -- Steven Chamberlain ste...@pyro.eu.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
On 11/22/2013 04:56 AM, Steven Chamberlain wrote: Hi, On 10/11/13 18:23, Russ Allbery wrote: What is the current status of the other position statements from the perspective of their maintainers? Do people have a feel for when they'll consider their positions finalized, at least pending Technical Committee feedback and questions? Sorry to be so late with this. I've made some small, final changes to this position statement and I'd like to call it 'complete': https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple I don't really feel that any contra $initsystem sections or rebuttals are needed on this page and it reads nicer this way. And I'm too tired to argue this much more; the debate has already taken far more energy than I would like. Thanks, Regards, Hi, I have the go-ahead from OpenRC upstream (eg: Patrick Lauer) so please consider the OpenRC page as finalized as well. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) P.S: Sorry for the delay. As I wrote previously, I had personal and professional events which delayed this task. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Hi, On 10/11/13 18:23, Russ Allbery wrote: What is the current status of the other position statements from the perspective of their maintainers? Do people have a feel for when they'll consider their positions finalized, at least pending Technical Committee feedback and questions? Sorry to be so late with this. I've made some small, final changes to this position statement and I'd like to call it 'complete': https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple I don't really feel that any contra $initsystem sections or rebuttals are needed on this page and it reads nicer this way. And I'm too tired to argue this much more; the debate has already taken far more energy than I would like. Thanks, Regards, -- Steven Chamberlain ste...@pyro.eu.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Hi Russ, On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:23:06AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: Ian Jackson writes: So I would appreciate it if you (and by you I mean each side of the argument) would make sure that your page represents the best case you can put forward. This seems to have come along very well in the past few days. We now have five camps with pages with substantial content: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/sysvinit https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/upstart Obviously people will need some time to further flesh this out and particularly to write rebuttals (or incorporate points into their main text which amount to rebuttals). If you're in one of these camps you'll probably want to subscribe to the pages of the others, so you can follow what they're doing and make sure to respond appropriately. How long do people think finalising this is going to take ? There are some potential problems with setting a hard deadline in advance but we're hoping to deal with this matter fairly soon now. We've now gotten confirmation from the maintainers of the systemd position statement that they consider their statement basically finished. I think those are the only position statement maintainers we've heard from. What is the current status of the other position statements from the perspective of their maintainers? Do people have a feel for when they'll consider their positions finalized, at least pending Technical Committee feedback and questions? Perhaps it would be good if the camp leader(s) for each camp would reply with a summary of: - the status of their own main arguments: are you mostly done, or do you expect to add more substantial points - the status of their rebuttals: subject of course, to any future changes by the other camps, how close are you to having what you consider a good answer to the other camps' points ? I think this would still be a good idea. At this point I'm satisfied with https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/upstart, at least as a starting point for further discussion with the TC. I'm sure the systemd folks and I could go back and forth interminably polishing our rhetoric, but I'd rather turn our attention to actual questions that the other members of the TC find relevant. ;) Thanks, -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: Ian Jackson writes: So I would appreciate it if you (and by you I mean each side of the argument) would make sure that your page represents the best case you can put forward. This seems to have come along very well in the past few days. We now have five camps with pages with substantial content: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/sysvinit https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/upstart Obviously people will need some time to further flesh this out and particularly to write rebuttals (or incorporate points into their main text which amount to rebuttals). If you're in one of these camps you'll probably want to subscribe to the pages of the others, so you can follow what they're doing and make sure to respond appropriately. How long do people think finalising this is going to take ? There are some potential problems with setting a hard deadline in advance but we're hoping to deal with this matter fairly soon now. We've now gotten confirmation from the maintainers of the systemd position statement that they consider their statement basically finished. I think those are the only position statement maintainers we've heard from. What is the current status of the other position statements from the perspective of their maintainers? Do people have a feel for when they'll consider their positions finalized, at least pending Technical Committee feedback and questions? Perhaps it would be good if the camp leader(s) for each camp would reply with a summary of: - the status of their own main arguments: are you mostly done, or do you expect to add more substantial points - the status of their rebuttals: subject of course, to any future changes by the other camps, how close are you to having what you consider a good answer to the other camps' points ? I think this would still be a good idea. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Hi Ian, Le jeudi 31 octobre 2013 à 15:01 +, Ian Jackson a écrit : Perhaps it would be good if the camp leader(s) for each camp would reply with a summary of: - the status of their own main arguments: are you mostly done, or do you expect to add more substantial points - the status of their rebuttals: subject of course, to any future changes by the other camps, how close are you to having what you consider a good answer to the other camps' points ? With some help from the other systemd proponents, I have added today what I consider the final touch for the systemd statement page. It is now mostly finished, including the rebuttals, and should only need new updates for spelling mistakes or minor inaccuracies. Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Ian Jackson writes (Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee): Steve Langasek writes[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd ... So I would appreciate it if you (and by you I mean each side of the argument) would make sure that your page represents the best case you can put forward. This seems to have come along very well in the past few days. We now have five camps with pages with substantial content: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/sysvinit https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/upstart Obviously people will need some time to further flesh this out and particularly to write rebuttals (or incorporate points into their main text which amount to rebuttals). If you're in one of these camps you'll probably want to subscribe to the pages of the others, so you can follow what they're doing and make sure to respond appropriately. How long do people think finalising this is going to take ? There are some potential problems with setting a hard deadline in advance but we're hoping to deal with this matter fairly soon now. Perhaps it would be good if the camp leader(s) for each camp would reply with a summary of: - the status of their own main arguments: are you mostly done, or do you expect to add more substantial points - the status of their rebuttals: subject of course, to any future changes by the other camps, how close are you to having what you consider a good answer to the other camps' points ? Thanks, Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: How long do people think finalising this is going to take ? There are some potential problems with setting a hard deadline in advance but we're hoping to deal with this matter fairly soon now. I propose the following approach: 1. Set a date for the first drafts of the various position papers to be finalized 2. Set a time period for the technical committee to review all of those papers and think about them and possibly have some discussion, and to produce a list of questions or concerns that don't feel adequately addressed 3. Give all of the position drafters an opportunity to further revise their positions based on feedback from that discussion 4. Have a vote based on those final position papers -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Hi all, I'd just like to mentioned just a small(big? you decide) issue that I haven't seen mentioned yet from anyone. Against systemd. systemd has explicitly mentioned its Linux-only support. Sure, that affects kFreeBSD/Hurd now. But changing an init system should be done looking ahead *at least* 10 years (we've used the old one for 20+ and in itself sysvinit exists for 30 years). Binding Debian to Linux *now* will make it pretty certain that soon current non-Linux ports will disappear, but also that potential *new* ports will never appear -or will be extremely hard/unlikely to be integrated as well as these ones have. So I think this question should really be added as a con to systemd. To be honest I'm indifferent, but if I had to, I'd choose either OpenRC or upstart, and that would be one of the reasons for that. We might not have a new port now, but I doubt anyone could foresee the addition of kFreeBSD a year before. With a OS-agnostic init system, you leave the option open, with systemd you don't. Anyway, enough ranting, I think I've made my point, I'm sure the technical committee will make the proper choice. And -I also want to say this- contrary to the claims, I see no bias involved, both Steve and Colin are extremely well respected Debian Developers. I honestly trust them they will do the proper *technically sound* choice. Regards Konstantinos pgp61QfQD9YjW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Konstantinos Margaritis writes (Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee): So I think this question should really be added as a con to systemd. The way that the Debate wiki system works is that the proponents of any particular answer are in charge of the page on that answer. So it is up to the systemd maintainers whether they want to discuss this question on their page. They do indeed mention it there, although fairly briefly. Of course the proponents of other approaches can mention this on their page, as some of them do. The Debate format does make it rather difficult to collect negative views on a particular option. Given how controversial systemd seems to be (compared to the alternatives) I wonder though whether there is a sufficient quorum of systemd naysayers to make it worth a separate anything but just systemd camp. There's nothing stopping such a page being created, ideally by a team led by someone with experience of working within and persuading Debian. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#727708: init system question before the technical committee
Steve Langasek writes[1]: For my part, I think the suggestion that Russ and Lars made a while ago to maintain position statements in the Debian wiki is a good one, and I would encourage you to make use of this structure so that you can lay out your arguments in a way that doesn't require you to repeat yourselves endlessly in a mail thread. The wiki is just waiting for someone to create the content: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd I would like very much to second this. This discussion is going to become unmanageable if we try to have it in the bug report and it will be difficult to get any kind of overview. I have been skimreading the messages from both sides here in the bug, but I can't guarantee to give proper consideration to all of the things which are said. In summary: I, at least, intend to base my decision on how to vote primarily on the information provided in the Debate wiki pages. So I would appreciate it if you (and by you I mean each side of the argument) would make sure that your page represents the best case you can put forward. In particular, I think for the systemd and OpenRC camps the first step would be to set out who the maintainers are of the position statement. And then the points made in the emails need to be transferred into the wiki and perhaps merged. I'm expecting that the upstart camp will then want to add some text to the section Rebuttals of their page. For the avoidance of any doubt: only the listed position statement maintainers should edit the page for a particular camp; with the exception that if you agree with the thrust of the position statement you may add something to Comments for the maintainer's consideration. Maintainers, please make sure you subscribe to updates the page for your camp, so that you can spot any edits which don't confirm to this rule. Finally: we need this conversation to stay constructive and pleasant. If anyone receives any rude, unprofessional or insulting messages (in any medium) on this matter, please let one of the TC know. Thanks, Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
