Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le mardi, 29 septembre 2015, 21.09:02 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 01:40:34PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit 
:
> > Le samedi, 26 septembre 2015, 15.03:09 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> > > Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> > > > * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> > > > >-: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > > > >colon,
> > > > >+: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > > > 
> > > > Remove :, too.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the proofreading.
> > > 
> > > With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed
> > > change ?> 
> > Seconded.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> here is a patch for the Policy editors.

This patch doesn't have Jakub's suggestion to drop : too.

Cheers,
OdyX

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 03:15:33PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> 
> This patch doesn't have Jakub's suggestion to drop : too.

Woops, sorry (new patch attached).

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>From 8043471268e4256e4a7c08da032b7074777f3eb8 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Charles Plessy 
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:49:44 +0900
Subject: [PATCH] Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.

Wording: Charles Plessy 
Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Seconded: Sam Hartman 
Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
Closes: #792853
---
 debian/changelog | 6 ++
 policy.sgml  | 6 ++
 upgrading-checklist.sgml | 3 +++
 3 files changed, 11 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/debian/changelog b/debian/changelog
index d3ddfe7..2696a48 100644
--- a/debian/changelog
+++ b/debian/changelog
@@ -39,6 +39,12 @@ debian-policy (3.9.7.0) unstable; urgency=low
 Wording: Charles Plessy 
 Wording: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
 Closes: #707851
+  * Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.
+Wording: Charles Plessy 
+Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
+Seconded: Sam Hartman 
+Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
+Closes: #792853
 
  -- Bill Allombert   Fri, 08 May 2015 15:10:02 +0200
 
diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml
index 40f9f3f..7522f47 100644
--- a/policy.sgml
+++ b/policy.sgml
@@ -3224,11 +3224,9 @@ Package: libc6
 			Alphanumerics are A-Za-z0-9 only.
 	  
 	  and the characters . + -
-	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
+	  ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
 	  tilde) and should start with a digit.  If there is no
-	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed;
-	  if there is no epoch then colons are not
-	  allowed.
+	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed.
 		
 	  
 
diff --git a/upgrading-checklist.sgml b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
index 7db0197..f7c86af 100644
--- a/upgrading-checklist.sgml
+++ b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
@@ -40,6 +40,9 @@ picking your way through this list.
 Released xxx, 2015.
 
 
+5.6.12
+   Forbid colons in package version numbers.
+  
 10.5
Symbolic links must not traverse above the root directory.
   
-- 
2.1.4

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le samedi, 26 septembre 2015, 15.03:09 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> > * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> > >-: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
> > >+: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > 
> > Remove :, too.
> 
> Thanks for the proofreading.
> 
> With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed change ?

Seconded.

Cheers,
OdyX

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Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 01:40:34PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> Le samedi, 26 septembre 2015, 15.03:09 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> > Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> > > * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> > > >-  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
> > > >+  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > > 
> > > Remove :, too.
> > 
> > Thanks for the proofreading.
> > 
> > With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed change ?
> 
> Seconded.

Thanks,

here is a patch for the Policy editors.

Have a nice day,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>From c87377b83d83a2786ee117965c602fb242b393a9 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Charles Plessy 
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:49:44 +0900
Subject: [PATCH] Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.

Wording: Charles Plessy 
Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Seconded: Sam Hartman 
Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
Closes: #792853
---
 debian/changelog | 6 ++
 policy.sgml  | 6 ++
 upgrading-checklist.sgml | 3 +++
 3 files changed, 11 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/debian/changelog b/debian/changelog
index d3ddfe7..2696a48 100644
--- a/debian/changelog
+++ b/debian/changelog
@@ -39,6 +39,12 @@ debian-policy (3.9.7.0) unstable; urgency=low
 Wording: Charles Plessy 
 Wording: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
 Closes: #707851
+  * Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.
+Wording: Charles Plessy 
+Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
+Seconded: Sam Hartman 
+Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
+Closes: #792853
 
  -- Bill Allombert   Fri, 08 May 2015 15:10:02 +0200
 
diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml
index 40f9f3f..c91c23a 100644
--- a/policy.sgml
+++ b/policy.sgml
@@ -3224,11 +3224,9 @@ Package: libc6
 			Alphanumerics are A-Za-z0-9 only.
 	  
 	  and the characters . + -
-	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
+	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
 	  tilde) and should start with a digit.  If there is no
-	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed;
-	  if there is no epoch then colons are not
-	  allowed.
+	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed.
 		
 	  
 
diff --git a/upgrading-checklist.sgml b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
index 7db0197..f7c86af 100644
--- a/upgrading-checklist.sgml
+++ b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
@@ -40,6 +40,9 @@ picking your way through this list.
 Released xxx, 2015.
 
 
+5.6.12
+   Forbid colons in package version numbers.
+  
 10.5
Symbolic links must not traverse above the root directory.
   
-- 
2.1.4

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Charles Plessy]

Le Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 09:21:36PM -0400, Sam Hartman a écrit :
> 
> However, I've also read the upstream colons discussion and can second
> that with no problems what so ever:-)

Thanks Sam.

Would anybody else second that change ?  Sorry to be a bit procedural, but if
nobody else seconds, this bug will go to bitrot and the Policy will not change.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Guillem Jover]

Hi!

On Mon, 2015-09-28 at 09:21:04 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > "Charles" == Charles Plessy  writes:
> 
> Charles> Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a
> Charles> écrit :
> >> * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53: >-
> >> : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon, >+
> >> : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> >> 
> >> Remove :, too.
> 
> Charles> Thanks for the proofreading.
> 
> Charles> With this correciton, are there people seconding the
> Charles> proposed change ?
> 
> 
> I'm totally fine with the text.
> It's hard to say there's sufficient support to judge consensus with so
> little discussion, but I'll second under the following rationale.
> 
> This issue has been talked about so much, and the controversial parts
> are already part of a TC decision.

Hrmmm, what TC decision? Are you perhaps mixing up issues here?

> If there were problems with the wording I expect someone would have
> jumped up by now.
> So, yeah, I think I can second.

Thanks,
Guillem

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Sam Hartman]

> "Guillem" == Guillem Jover  writes:

Guillem> Hi!
Guillem> On Mon, 2015-09-28 at 09:21:04 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> > "Charles" == Charles Plessy  writes:
>> 
Charles> Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a
Charles> écrit :
>> >> * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53: >- >>
>> : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon, >+ >>
>> : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
>> >> 
>> >> Remove :, too.
>> 
Charles> Thanks for the proofreading.
>> 
Charles> With this correciton, are there people seconding the
Charles> proposed change ?
>> 
>> 
>> I'm totally fine with the text.  It's hard to say there's
>> sufficient support to judge consensus with so little discussion,
>> but I'll second under the following rationale.
>> 
>> This issue has been talked about so much, and the controversial
>> parts are already part of a TC decision.

Guillem> Hrmmm, what TC decision? Are you perhaps mixing up issues
Guillem> here?

I sure am.
However, I've also read the upstream colons discussion and can second
that with no problems what so ever:-)

(I will not second the other issue unless someone calls for seconds.)


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Description: PGP signature

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Sam Hartman]

> "Charles" == Charles Plessy  writes:

Charles> Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a
Charles> écrit :
>> * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53: >-
>> : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon, >+
>> : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
>> 
>> Remove :, too.

Charles> Thanks for the proofreading.

Charles> With this correciton, are there people seconding the
Charles> proposed change ?


I'm totally fine with the text.
It's hard to say there's sufficient support to judge consensus with so
little discussion, but I'll second under the following rationale.

This issue has been talked about so much, and the controversial parts
are already part of a TC decision.
If there were problems with the wording I expect someone would have
jumped up by now.
So, yeah, I think I can second.


pgpaKFTj7xQth.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Charles Plessy]

Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> >-  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
> >+  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> 
> Remove :, too.

Thanks for the proofreading.

With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed change ?

Have a nice day,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Jakub Wilk]

* Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:

- : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
+ : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,


Remove :, too.

--
Jakub Wilk

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Charles Plessy]

Control: tag -1 patch

Le Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 01:48:14PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> 
> Therefore, I'd like to propose to disallow colons in upstream_version.

Hello everybody,

following the positive reactions, here is a tentative patch to implement
Jakub's proposition.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>From f7d72a95a06ab83af6dec1b4eaaa41396e77fb88 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Charles Plessy 
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:49:44 +0900
Subject: [PATCH] Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.

Wording: Charles Plessy 
Seconded:
Seconded:
Closes: #792853
---
 debian/changelog | 5 +
 policy.sgml  | 6 ++
 upgrading-checklist.sgml | 3 +++
 3 files changed, 10 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/debian/changelog b/debian/changelog
index d48eac8..e2aa3fa 100644
--- a/debian/changelog
+++ b/debian/changelog
@@ -31,6 +31,11 @@ debian-policy (3.9.7.0) unstable; urgency=low
 Seconded: Bill Allombert 
 Seconded: Charles Plessy 
 Closes: #106073
+  * Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.
+Wording: Charles Plessy 
+Seconded:
+Seconded:
+Closes; #792853
 
  -- Bill Allombert   Fri, 08 May 2015 15:10:02 +0200
 
diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml
index 404dc73..bbd7ea1 100644
--- a/policy.sgml
+++ b/policy.sgml
@@ -3224,11 +3224,9 @@ Package: libc6
 			Alphanumerics are A-Za-z0-9 only.
 	  
 	  and the characters . + -
-	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
+	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
 	  tilde) and should start with a digit.  If there is no
-	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed;
-	  if there is no epoch then colons are not
-	  allowed.
+	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed.
 		
 	  
 
diff --git a/upgrading-checklist.sgml b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
index ebb17fc..8f94b38 100644
--- a/upgrading-checklist.sgml
+++ b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
@@ -40,6 +40,9 @@ picking your way through this list.
 Released xxx, 2015.
 
 
+5.6.12
+   Forbid colons in package version numbers.
+  
 10.5
Symbolic links must not traverse above the root directory.
   
-- 
2.1.4

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Julien Cristau]

On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 13:48:14 +0200, Jakub Wilk wrote:

 Package: debian-policy
 Severity: wishlist
 
 Policy §5.6.12 reads: “The upstream_version may contain only alphanumerics
 and the characters ‘.’  ‘+’ ‘-’ ‘:’ ‘~’ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
 tilde) and should start with a digit. […] if there is no epoch then colons
 are not allowed.”
 
 But in practice:
 
 1) There's been never a package with a colon in upstream_version in the
 archive.
 
 2) A colon in upstream_version implies a colon in the filename. Some
 software might not tolerate such filenames; see bug #645895 for discussion.
 
 3) dpkg in unstable won't even let you build a package with such version:
 
 $ head -n1 debian/changelog
 adequate (1:1:1) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
 $ dpkg-buildpackage -S
 […]
 dpkg-genchanges -S ../adequate_1:1_source.changes
 dpkg-genchanges: error: invalid filename adequate_1:1.dsc
 dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-genchanges gave error exit status 255
 
As far as I can tell, dak would reject such a filename, too (the commit
message doesn't seem to consider colons as part of upstream_version at
all):
http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/mirror/dak.git/tree/daklib/regexes.py#n134
http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/mirror/dak.git/commit/?id=e86a4800

Cheers,
Julien


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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Guillem Jover]

Hi!

On Sun, 2015-07-19 at 20:25:04 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
 Guillem Jover guil...@debian.org writes:
  So, in principle 2) and 3) are mostly problems in dpkg, 1) might be a
  quite good indication that upstreams do not usually do this, and 4) a
  very strong deterrent for them to do so.
 
  I'm ambivalent on disallowing this in Debian, and even if policy ends
  up disallowing it might still make sense to allow it in dpkg in case
  someone outside Debian is using such thing (although I'm having a bit
  of a hard time seeing this being used in practice).
 
 I feel like simplicity in our version numbering scheme is best.  It's
 clear that no one is currently using this, and this message is the first
 time I recall it even coming up.  That implies that we're not losing much
 (if anything) by not supporting this, even though we claimed it was
 supported.
 
 The simplest approach for Debian seems to be to just forbid colons in
 upstream version numbers.  This also simplifies parsing mildly.

Right, makes sense. Although I wouldn't like for that regression in
dpkg to be used as a “fait accompli” argument.

 (Obviously, dpkg is free to be more generous, although it's convenient
 when dpkg aligns with Debian Policy in a way that doesn't require writing
 a separate Lintian rule.)

So I've decided I'll merge the fix for now, which can always be
reverted if Debian Policy forbids its usage, but in that case I'd
probably implement a proper staged deprecation process, with warnings
and all, to catch the possible but improbable external users.

Thanks,
Guillem


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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Jakub Wilk]

Package: debian-policy
Severity: wishlist

Policy §5.6.12 reads: “The upstream_version may contain only 
alphanumerics and the characters ‘.’  ‘+’ ‘-’ ‘:’ ‘~’ (full stop, plus, 
hyphen, colon, tilde) and should start with a digit. […] if there is no 
epoch then colons are not allowed.”


But in practice:

1) There's been never a package with a colon in upstream_version in the 
archive.


2) A colon in upstream_version implies a colon in the filename. Some 
software might not tolerate such filenames; see bug #645895 for 
discussion.


3) dpkg in unstable won't even let you build a package with such 
version:


$ head -n1 debian/changelog
adequate (1:1:1) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
$ dpkg-buildpackage -S
[…]
dpkg-genchanges -S ../adequate_1:1_source.changes
dpkg-genchanges: error: invalid filename adequate_1:1.dsc
dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-genchanges gave error exit status 255


Therefore, I'd like to propose to disallow colons in upstream_version.

--
Jakub Wilk


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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Cyril Brulebois]

Jakub Wilk jw...@debian.org (2015-07-19):
 Package: debian-policy
 Severity: wishlist
 
 Policy §5.6.12 reads: “The upstream_version may contain only alphanumerics
 and the characters ‘.’  ‘+’ ‘-’ ‘:’ ‘~’ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
 tilde) and should start with a digit. […] if there is no epoch then colons
 are not allowed.”
 
 But in practice:
 
 1) There's been never a package with a colon in upstream_version in the
 archive.
 
 2) A colon in upstream_version implies a colon in the filename. Some
 software might not tolerate such filenames; see bug #645895 for discussion.
 
 3) dpkg in unstable won't even let you build a package with such version:
 
 $ head -n1 debian/changelog
 adequate (1:1:1) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
 $ dpkg-buildpackage -S
 […]
 dpkg-genchanges -S ../adequate_1:1_source.changes
 dpkg-genchanges: error: invalid filename adequate_1:1.dsc
 dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-genchanges gave error exit status 255
 
 
 Therefore, I'd like to propose to disallow colons in upstream_version.

This looks to me like a reasonable thing to do.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Guillem Jover]

Hi!

On Sun, 2015-07-19 at 13:48:14 +0200, Jakub Wilk wrote:
 Package: debian-policy
 Severity: wishlist

 Policy §5.6.12 reads: “The upstream_version may contain only alphanumerics
 and the characters ‘.’  ‘+’ ‘-’ ‘:’ ‘~’ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
 tilde) and should start with a digit. […] if there is no epoch then colons
 are not allowed.”
 
 But in practice:
 
 1) There's been never a package with a colon in upstream_version in the
 archive.
 
 2) A colon in upstream_version implies a colon in the filename. Some
 software might not tolerate such filenames; see bug #645895 for discussion.

The problem with dpkg-source is just a matter of its assumptions related
to epochs, otherwise it can handle colons just fine.

,---
$ dpkg-source -x pkg_1:1-1.dsc
dpkg-source: warning: extracting unsigned source package (pkg_1:1-1.dsc)
dpkg-source: info: extracting pkg in pkg-1:1
dpkg-source: info: unpacking pkg_1:1.orig.tar.xz
dpkg-source: info: unpacking pkg_1:1-1.debian.tar.xz
$ dpkg-parsechangelog -lpkg-1\:1/debian/changelog -SVersion
1:1:1-1
`---

 3) dpkg in unstable won't even let you build a package with such version:

 $ head -n1 debian/changelog
 adequate (1:1:1) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
 $ dpkg-buildpackage -S
 […]
 dpkg-genchanges -S ../adequate_1:1_source.changes
 dpkg-genchanges: error: invalid filename adequate_1:1.dsc
 dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-genchanges gave error exit status 255

Ah, thanks! That's an accidental regression introduced in dpkg 1.18.0,
which I've just fixed now locally, but I'm pondering if it's worth
including the fix in the upcoming 1.18.2 release, given the following:

4) GNU tar considers a colon the delimiter for a hostname, and tries to
   establish a network connection that will most probably fail, which
   affects both packing and unpacking. You have to use --force-local to
   avoid that, and I doubt upstreams might be bothered to do so, or
   inflict that onto their users:

   ,---
   $ tar -tf pkg_1\:1.orig.tar.xz
   tar: Cannot connect to pkg_1: resolve failed
   $ tar -tf pkg_1\:1.orig.tar.xz --force-local
   pkg-1:1/
   `---

 Therefore, I'd like to propose to disallow colons in upstream_version.

So, in principle 2) and 3) are mostly problems in dpkg, 1) might be a
quite good indication that upstreams do not usually do this, and 4) a
very strong deterrent for them to do so.

I'm ambivalent on disallowing this in Debian, and even if policy ends
up disallowing it might still make sense to allow it in dpkg in case
someone outside Debian is using such thing (although I'm having a bit
of a hard time seeing this being used in practice).

Thanks,
Guillem


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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

[Russ Allbery]

Guillem Jover guil...@debian.org writes:

 So, in principle 2) and 3) are mostly problems in dpkg, 1) might be a
 quite good indication that upstreams do not usually do this, and 4) a
 very strong deterrent for them to do so.

 I'm ambivalent on disallowing this in Debian, and even if policy ends
 up disallowing it might still make sense to allow it in dpkg in case
 someone outside Debian is using such thing (although I'm having a bit
 of a hard time seeing this being used in practice).

I feel like simplicity in our version numbering scheme is best.  It's
clear that no one is currently using this, and this message is the first
time I recall it even coming up.  That implies that we're not losing much
(if anything) by not supporting this, even though we claimed it was
supported.

The simplest approach for Debian seems to be to just forbid colons in
upstream version numbers.  This also simplifies parsing mildly.

(Obviously, dpkg is free to be more generous, although it's convenient
when dpkg aligns with Debian Policy in a way that doesn't require writing
a separate Lintian rule.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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