Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
Hello Thorsten, On 12/16/2016 03:36 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> On 12/16/2016 02:53 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote: >>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: >>> That doesn't document (upstream) reality though. Once upon a time, there were one or two Section 9 pages in the man-pages project. No one updated them or added new one in > 15 years, and I deleted them years ago, as being out-of-date and useless. >>> >>> This is not a reason against restarting this section, though. >> >> There is no-one who will work on it. > > Excuse me for reading this as your statement being “I won’t work on it” (Yep, it's true. Too much else to do, even if it would be interesting.) > but you cannot say that “no-one” will. Yes, it's merely my prediction. > For example, if the Debian > maintainer of those manual pages considers this a good idea, they > are free to work on this. One manpage at a time is good enough. Sure. I just don't expect someone to step forward for that task. >> And, related to the current discussion, the Debian tmpfs-config >> would not belong in that section. > > Of course not. I stated something quite different: I misunderstood. >>> Hmm. So we could conceivably move the manpage about the >>> tmpfs filesystem to section 9 as a Debian-local patch But the same statement applies. The tmpfs filesystem page also does not belong in section 9... Have a good weekend! Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > On 12/16/2016 02:53 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > > On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > > > >> That doesn't document (upstream) reality though. Once upon a time, > >> there were one or two Section 9 pages in the man-pages > >> project. No one updated them or added new one in > 15 years, > >> and I deleted them years ago, as being out-of-date and useless. > > > > This is not a reason against restarting this section, though. > > There is no-one who will work on it. Excuse me for reading this as your statement being “I won’t work on it” but you cannot say that “no-one” will. For example, if the Debian maintainer of those manual pages considers this a good idea, they are free to work on this. One manpage at a time is good enough. > And, related to the current discussion, the Debian tmpfs-config > would not belong in that section. Of course not. I stated something quite different: > > Hmm. So we could conceivably move the manpage about the > > tmpfs filesystem to section 9 as a Debian-local patch This one would be correct. The configuration file manpage can be kept in section 5 then. bye, //mirabilos -- tarent solutions GmbH Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On 12/16/2016 02:53 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> That doesn't document (upstream) reality though. Once upon a time, >> there were one or two Section 9 pages in the man-pages >> project. No one updated them or added new one in > 15 years, >> and I deleted them years ago, as being out-of-date and useless. > > This is not a reason against restarting this section, though. There is no-one who will work on it. And, related to the current discussion, the Debian tmpfs-config would not belong in that section. -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > That doesn't document (upstream) reality though. Once upon a time, > there were one or two Section 9 pages in the man-pages > project. No one updated them or added new one in > 15 years, > and I deleted them years ago, as being out-of-date and useless. This is not a reason against restarting this section, though. bye, //mirabilos -- tarent solutions GmbH Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On 12/16/2016 02:37 PM, Axel Beckert wrote: > Hi, > > Thorsten Glaser wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: >>> Upstream man-pages maintainer here; I just added tmpfs(5), unaware >>> that it would create a conflict for Debian; I assume the conflicting >>> page is Debian-specific(?). (I don't have such a page on my Fedora >> >> Yes. >> The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). >>> >>> Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. >> >> Ah, hmm, too bad then. We have them on BSD. > > At least "man man" (aka man(1)) on Debian says: > >9 Kernel routines [Non standard] That doesn't document (upstream) reality though. Once upon a time, there were one or two Section 9 pages in the man-pages project. No one updated them or added new one in > 15 years, and I deleted them years ago, as being out-of-date and useless. -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On 12/16/2016 02:40 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Axel Beckert wrote: > > The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it > covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. >>> >>> Ah, hmm, too bad then. We have them on BSD. >> >> At least "man man" (aka man(1)) on Debian says: >> >>9 Kernel routines [Non standard] >> >> The according file comes from the package man-db. > > Hmm. So we could conceivably move the manpage about the > tmpfs filesystem to section 9 as a Debian-local patch > (since upstream appears to prefer to not have such a > section), and then all will be good™. Is there already something in Section 9 on Debian? -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, Axel Beckert wrote: > > > > The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it > > > > covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). > > > > > > Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. > > > > Ah, hmm, too bad then. We have them on BSD. > > At least "man man" (aka man(1)) on Debian says: > >9 Kernel routines [Non standard] > > The according file comes from the package man-db. Hmm. So we could conceivably move the manpage about the tmpfs filesystem to section 9 as a Debian-local patch (since upstream appears to prefer to not have such a section), and then all will be good™. bye, //mirabilos -- tarent solutions GmbH Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg
Bug#847998: [Pkg-sysvinit-devel] Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
Hi, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > > Upstream man-pages maintainer here; I just added tmpfs(5), unaware > > that it would create a conflict for Debian; I assume the conflicting > > page is Debian-specific(?). (I don't have such a page on my Fedora > > Yes. > > > > The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it > > > covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). > > > > Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. > > Ah, hmm, too bad then. We have them on BSD. At least "man man" (aka man(1)) on Debian says: 9 Kernel routines [Non standard] The according file comes from the package man-db. Regards, Axel -- ,''`. | Axel Beckert , http://people.debian.org/~abe/ : :' : | Debian Developer, ftp.ch.debian.org Admin `. `' | 4096R: 2517 B724 C5F6 CA99 5329 6E61 2FF9 CD59 6126 16B5 `-| 1024D: F067 EA27 26B9 C3FC 1486 202E C09E 1D89 9593 0EDE
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On 13 December 2016 at 10:56, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> I can't move "them" as they come from diverse projects (nfs-utils, > > OK. > >> e2fsprogs, btrfs-progs). Obviously, various projects came to the same >> conclusion (or copied each other's idea) that Section 5 was the right >> place. And in the Linux man-pages we also have filesystems(5) and >> proc(5), for example. > > So, we could temporarily not ship the Debian-specific manpage, while > suggesting to the various projects mentioned that section 5 may not > have been the best place for it. (Again, just collecting suggestions, > not deciding things for anyone ;-) > > If there is no hard policy against section 9 I’d like to have > kernel-specific stuff there, This would be Debian-specific then? > otherwise I think section 7 is at > least more appropriate than section 5 – or section 4, possibly, > but that’s “device drivers” on BSD so it doesn’t feel fully > right either, but at least it’s kernel land, whereas 7 is more > general. See my other reply. (FreeBSD) follows the same convention here as Linux... Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
>>> And there's certainly precedent for section 5 pages on filesystems. >>> For example, among others, we have ext4(5), btrfs(5), and nfs(5). >> >> But section 5 is for configuration files. You could move them >> to section 7 (general concepts), though. > > I can't move "them" as they come from diverse projects (nfs-utils, > e2fsprogs, btrfs-progs). Obviously, various projects came to the same > conclusion (or copied each other's idea) that Section 5 was the right > place. And in the Linux man-pages we also have filesystems(5) and > proc(5), for example. Actually, other operating systems also seemed to come to the same conclusion. For FreeBSD, I see the following in Section 5: $ ls -1 *fs.5 autofs.5 devfs.5 ext2fs.5 fdescfs.5 fs.5 linprocfs.5 linsysfs.5 mqueuefs.5 msdosfs.5 nandfs.5 nullfs.5 procfs.5 tmpfs.5 Note the last! Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > I can't move "them" as they come from diverse projects (nfs-utils, OK. > e2fsprogs, btrfs-progs). Obviously, various projects came to the same > conclusion (or copied each other's idea) that Section 5 was the right > place. And in the Linux man-pages we also have filesystems(5) and > proc(5), for example. So, we could temporarily not ship the Debian-specific manpage, while suggesting to the various projects mentioned that section 5 may not have been the best place for it. (Again, just collecting suggestions, not deciding things for anyone ;-) If there is no hard policy against section 9 I’d like to have kernel-specific stuff there, otherwise I think section 7 is at least more appropriate than section 5 – or section 4, possibly, but that’s “device drivers” on BSD so it doesn’t feel fully right either, but at least it’s kernel land, whereas 7 is more general. bye, //mirabilos -- tarent solutions GmbH Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
Hello Thorsten, On 13 December 2016 at 10:43, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> Upstream man-pages maintainer here; I just added tmpfs(5), unaware >> that it would create a conflict for Debian; I assume the conflicting >> page is Debian-specific(?). (I don't have such a page on my Fedora > > Yes. Thanks for the confirmation. >> > The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it >> > covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). >> >> Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. > > Ah, hmm, too bad then. We have them on BSD. (Yes.) > >> And there's certainly precedent for section 5 pages on filesystems. >> For example, among others, we have ext4(5), btrfs(5), and nfs(5). > > But section 5 is for configuration files. You could move them > to section 7 (general concepts), though. I can't move "them" as they come from diverse projects (nfs-utils, e2fsprogs, btrfs-progs). Obviously, various projects came to the same conclusion (or copied each other's idea) that Section 5 was the right place. And in the Linux man-pages we also have filesystems(5) and proc(5), for example. Cheers, Michael
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
Am 13. Dezember 2016 04:49:46 MEZ, schrieb Michael Biebl : >On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 00:44:24 +0100 Sebastian Ramacher > wrote: >> Package: manpages >> Version: 4.09-1 >> Severity: serious >> >> manpages fails to install because it shares tmpfs(5) with >initscripts: >> >> dpkg: error processing archive >/tmp/apt-dpkg-install-7sSPgR/26-manpages_4.09-1_all.deb (--unpack): >> trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man5/tmpfs.5.gz', which is also >in package initscripts 2.88dsf-59.8 >> dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe) > > >The tmpfs man page shipped by the manpages package talks about the >tmpfs >file system. >The man page shipped by initscripts talks about the debian/initscripts >specific config file /etc/default/tmpfs. > >My gut feeling is, that debian specific tmpfs man page should be >renamed. > >Regards, >Michael > >P.S: Sebastian, as you are using stretch/sid ans systemd, you can >safely >purge the initscripts package (along with sysv-rc, insserv and >startpar) Control: tag -1 pending Hi, thanks for the bug report. I'll take care of this in a couple of hours. Regards, Tobias
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > Upstream man-pages maintainer here; I just added tmpfs(5), unaware > that it would create a conflict for Debian; I assume the conflicting > page is Debian-specific(?). (I don't have such a page on my Fedora Yes. > > The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it > > covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). > > Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. Ah, hmm, too bad then. We have them on BSD. > And there's certainly precedent for section 5 pages on filesystems. > For example, among others, we have ext4(5), btrfs(5), and nfs(5). But section 5 is for configuration files. You could move them to section 7 (general concepts), though. Just collecting ideas, currently. bye, //mirabilos -- tarent solutions GmbH Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
Upstream man-pages maintainer here; I just added tmpfs(5), unaware that it would create a conflict for Debian; I assume the conflicting page is Debian-specific(?). (I don't have such a page on my Fedora system.) On 13 December 2016 at 10:00, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Biebl wrote: > >> The tmpfs man page shipped by the manpages package talks about the tmpfs >> file system. >> The man page shipped by initscripts talks about the debian/initscripts >> specific config file /etc/default/tmpfs. >> >> My gut feeling is, that debian specific tmpfs man page should be renamed. > > From the usual unix policy stuff: > > The manpage about /etc/default/tmpfs can be tmpfs(5) as it > covers a configuration file. > > The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it > covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). Not sure where this idea originates. There is no Section 9 on Linux. And there's certainly precedent for section 5 pages on filesystems. For example, among others, we have ext4(5), btrfs(5), and nfs(5). I'm not sure what the best path forward here is. Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, Michael Biebl wrote: > The tmpfs man page shipped by the manpages package talks about the tmpfs > file system. > The man page shipped by initscripts talks about the debian/initscripts > specific config file /etc/default/tmpfs. > > My gut feeling is, that debian specific tmpfs man page should be renamed. >From the usual unix policy stuff: The manpage about /etc/default/tmpfs can be tmpfs(5) as it covers a configuration file. The manpage about the Linux tmpfs should be tmpfs(9) as it covers a kernel concept (here: a filesystem). Thanks, //mirabilos -- Sometimes they [people] care too much: pretty printers [and syntax highligh- ting, d.A.] mechanically produce pretty output that accentuates irrelevant detail in the program, which is as sensible as putting all the prepositions in English text in bold font. -- Rob Pike in "Notes on Programming in C"
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 00:44:24 +0100 Sebastian Ramacher wrote: > Package: manpages > Version: 4.09-1 > Severity: serious > > manpages fails to install because it shares tmpfs(5) with initscripts: > > dpkg: error processing archive > /tmp/apt-dpkg-install-7sSPgR/26-manpages_4.09-1_all.deb (--unpack): > trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man5/tmpfs.5.gz', which is also in > package initscripts 2.88dsf-59.8 > dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe) The tmpfs man page shipped by the manpages package talks about the tmpfs file system. The man page shipped by initscripts talks about the debian/initscripts specific config file /etc/default/tmpfs. My gut feeling is, that debian specific tmpfs man page should be renamed. Regards, Michael P.S: Sebastian, as you are using stretch/sid ans systemd, you can safely purge the initscripts package (along with sysv-rc, insserv and startpar) -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#847998: manpages: file conflicts with initscripts
Package: manpages Version: 4.09-1 Severity: serious manpages fails to install because it shares tmpfs(5) with initscripts: dpkg: error processing archive /tmp/apt-dpkg-install-7sSPgR/26-manpages_4.09-1_all.deb (--unpack): trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man5/tmpfs.5.gz', which is also in package initscripts 2.88dsf-59.8 dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe) Cheers -- System Information: Debian Release: stretch/sid APT prefers unstable-debug APT policy: (650, 'unstable-debug'), (650, 'buildd-unstable'), (650, 'unstable'), (601, 'testing'), (600, 'experimental-debug'), (600, 'experimental') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Foreign Architectures: i386 Kernel: Linux 4.8.0-1-amd64 (SMP w/8 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=en_US.utf8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system) -- Sebastian Ramacher signature.asc Description: PGP signature
