Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Sorry for spamming… Resending the same message, I just remembered debian.org ignores mails from mail@* addresses. On Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 02:24:08PM +, Stefano Rivera wrote: > > See "ITP pyenv" @ http://bugs.debian.org/978149 . > > I think the Python development community would be very happy to see > this. Debian's selected Python releases don't meet all the needs of > Python developers, who typically want access to all supported Python 3 > versions (and possibly the next alpha), at all times. > Indeed. > I'd be happy to review and sponsor uploads. > Thanks Stefano, I packaged it almost 2 years ago while working on Android Open-source project (AOSP). While I got response from upstream, I Haven't got any response from debian community back then apart from interest in it from Julian a year ago. Since then I also didn't find any DD nearyby my city to sign my key. I'm happy to work on the packaging…
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
On Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 12:31:23PM +0100, Joost van Baal-Ilić wrote: > Op Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 05:52:21AM + schreef Danial Behzadi دانیال بهزادی: > > Does it worth trying to package pyenv for Debian? Ain't it against any > > rules? > > See "ITP pyenv" @ http://bugs.debian.org/978149 . Oh, how embarrassing - I already knew about this software a year ago! Best wishes, Julian
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Hi Joost (2023.02.07_11:31:23_+) > Op Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 05:52:21AM + schreef Danial Behzadi دانیال بهزادی: > > Does it worth trying to package pyenv for Debian? Ain't it against any > > rules? > > See "ITP pyenv" @ http://bugs.debian.org/978149 . I think the Python development community would be very happy to see this. Debian's selected Python releases don't meet all the needs of Python developers, who typically want access to all supported Python 3 versions (and possibly the next alpha), at all times. I'd be happy to review and sponsor uploads. Stefano -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Op Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 05:52:21AM + schreef Danial Behzadi دانیال بهزادی: > Does it worth trying to package pyenv for Debian? Ain't it against any rules? See "ITP pyenv" @ http://bugs.debian.org/978149 . Bye, Joost -- Joost van Baal-Ilić http://abramowitz.uvt.nl/ Tilburg University mailto:joostvb.uvt.nl The Netherlands
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Does it worth trying to package pyenv for Debian? Ain't it against any rules?
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Hi Andrey, On Mon, Feb 06, 2023 at 11:53:33AM +0100, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > On Sun, Feb 05, 2023 at 01:50:34PM +, Julian Gilbey wrote: > > Our social contract #4 says "Our priorities are our users and free > > software". What benefits would having the python3.10 base packages in > > bookworm bring for our users (as I point out, for some users, this is > > a necessity) and what disadvantages would it bring (none that I can > > think of)? Why would we tell a whole bunch of our users: "Don't > > upgrade to Debian 12 until all of the critical packages you use from > > PyPI are upgraded to support Python 3.11, or fix those packages > > yourself"? > The next obvious step for these use cases is to just install 3.10 with > pyenv. Oh, that's brilliant! I didn't know about this tool (and I note it's not currently in Debian). This solution for users who need Python 3.10, together with the support burden of having python3.10 in bookworm (which I hadn't appreciated), I withdraw my objection to the removal of python3.10. Best wishes, Julian
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
On 2/5/23 14:50, Julian Gilbey wrote: Our social contract #4 says "Our priorities are our users and free software". In a Debian thread, invoking the social contract #4, is like owning a goodwin point. It suggests that the opponent is trying to do something against the Debian users, which is a very bad way to interact with others. Well done, you've earned a Debian goodwin point! Why would we tell a whole bunch of our users: "Don't upgrade to Debian 12 until all of the critical packages you use from PyPI are upgraded to support Python 3.11, or fix those packages yourself"? Because: - we don't want to maintain 2 interpreter in the next stable (that's too much work, and as much as I know, nobody volunteered for it, did you?). - the freeze will take months anyways, so these packages can be fixed in the mean time. - these modules aren't in Debian, and we can't cover all of what's in PyPi, only the subset we package. - that's a very valid answer. Bullseye will be around for at least 1 more year after Bookworm. There will be 2 more years of LTS after that. If you care yourself, probably you should attempt to open merge requests against the affected modules, to fix the situation. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
On Sun, Feb 05, 2023 at 01:50:34PM +, Julian Gilbey wrote: > Our social contract #4 says "Our priorities are our users and free > software". What benefits would having the python3.10 base packages in > bookworm bring for our users (as I point out, for some users, this is > a necessity) and what disadvantages would it bring (none that I can > think of)? Why would we tell a whole bunch of our users: "Don't > upgrade to Debian 12 until all of the critical packages you use from > PyPI are upgraded to support Python 3.11, or fix those packages > yourself"? The next obvious step for these use cases is to just install 3.10 with pyenv.
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
On Sun, Feb 05, 2023 at 02:41:08PM +, Stefano Rivera wrote: > Hi Julian (2023.02.05_10:38:23_+) > > > Why is the current intention not to ship the python3.10 package in > > bookworm? > > Because we aim to have a single Python release supported in every stable > release. I am not suggesting that we revert to having Python 3.10 as a "supported version" (that would be a whole separate discussion); I am suggesting that we keep just the Python 3.10 interpreter and python3.10-venv in bookworm, so that users can use it to run a virtual environment if they need to do so. > > I was trying to run some experiments in a virtual environment a few > > days ago, and it turns out that several of the Python packages I > > needed do not yet run on Python 3.11. I was saved by being able to > > run in a Python 3.10 venv and download all the required packages from > > PyPI. If bookworm shipped without python3.10, I would not have been > > able to do my work. Removing python3.10 from bookworm will seriously > > affect many of our users in a similar situation to me. > > By the time bookworm releases, that probably won't be the case any more. I honestly don't know if that will be the case or not; some packages will be much slower to adapt than others. That's why I'm suggesting we leave the python3.10 and python3.10-venv packages in bookworm. > But anything that gets removed from Debian, because it isn't ready yet > obviously gets hurt in the process... I'm not sure what you mean here? Best wishes, Julian
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Hi Julian (2023.02.05_10:38:23_+) > Why is the current intention not to ship the python3.10 package in > bookworm? Because we aim to have a single Python release supported in every stable release. > I was trying to run some experiments in a virtual environment a few > days ago, and it turns out that several of the Python packages I > needed do not yet run on Python 3.11. I was saved by being able to > run in a Python 3.10 venv and download all the required packages from > PyPI. If bookworm shipped without python3.10, I would not have been > able to do my work. Removing python3.10 from bookworm will seriously > affect many of our users in a similar situation to me. By the time bookworm releases, that probably won't be the case any more. But anything that gets removed from Debian, because it isn't ready yet obviously gets hurt in the process... SR -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Our social contract #4 says "Our priorities are our users and free software". What benefits would having the python3.10 base packages in bookworm bring for our users (as I point out, for some users, this is a necessity) and what disadvantages would it bring (none that I can think of)? Why would we tell a whole bunch of our users: "Don't upgrade to Debian 12 until all of the critical packages you use from PyPI are upgraded to support Python 3.11, or fix those packages yourself"? And may I politely remind you, Thomas, that you are very concerned about breaking things for people: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=973617#40 This is likely a far greater impact than the discussion there on many more people. Best wishes, Julian On Sun, Feb 05, 2023 at 12:25:18PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > How about fixing the 3.11 issues if you hit them ? How about using Buster and > 3.9 if 3.11 doesn't work (yet) for you ? > > Thomas Goirand (zigo) > On Feb 5, 2023 11:38, Julian Gilbey wrote: > > > > Why is the current intention not to ship the python3.10 package in > > bookworm? > > > > I was trying to run some experiments in a virtual environment a few > > days ago, and it turns out that several of the Python packages I > > needed do not yet run on Python 3.11. I was saved by being able to > > run in a Python 3.10 venv and download all the required packages from > > PyPI. If bookworm shipped without python3.10, I would not have been > > able to do my work. Removing python3.10 from bookworm will seriously > > affect many of our users in a similar situation to me. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Julian > > > > P.S. We should also fix #1036268 if we do keep python3.10 in bookworm; > > I'm happy to do an NMU if needed.
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
How about fixing the 3.11 issues if you hit them ? How about using Buster and 3.9 if 3.11 doesn't work (yet) for you ? Thomas Goirand (zigo) On Feb 5, 2023 11:38, Julian Gilbey wrote: > > Why is the current intention not to ship the python3.10 package in > bookworm? > > I was trying to run some experiments in a virtual environment a few > days ago, and it turns out that several of the Python packages I > needed do not yet run on Python 3.11. I was saved by being able to > run in a Python 3.10 venv and download all the required packages from > PyPI. If bookworm shipped without python3.10, I would not have been > able to do my work. Removing python3.10 from bookworm will seriously > affect many of our users in a similar situation to me. > > Best wishes, > > Julian > > P.S. We should also fix #1036268 if we do keep python3.10 in bookworm; > I'm happy to do an NMU if needed. >
Bug#1030530: Python 3.10 in bookworm
Why is the current intention not to ship the python3.10 package in bookworm? I was trying to run some experiments in a virtual environment a few days ago, and it turns out that several of the Python packages I needed do not yet run on Python 3.11. I was saved by being able to run in a Python 3.10 venv and download all the required packages from PyPI. If bookworm shipped without python3.10, I would not have been able to do my work. Removing python3.10 from bookworm will seriously affect many of our users in a similar situation to me. Best wishes, Julian P.S. We should also fix #1036268 if we do keep python3.10 in bookworm; I'm happy to do an NMU if needed.
