Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 01:14:09PM +0200, Markus Koschany wrote: > Am 19.05.2017 um 02:24 schrieb Steve Cotton: > > But the ones in contrib using original artwork only have the DFSG > > parts in contrib, the copy of the original artwork isn't in contrib. > > Exactly. But Pixbros has its own distinct DFSG-free artwork. Can't you > see that? This bug is about the level designs, the level designer's choices of where the platforms are. Whether the other game data is DFSG-free* doesn't affect whether the levels are. For the games in contrib, the levels or maps are frequently part of the non-free data. And for all the games where I've been part of the community of players, I recall there's recognition of who made the user-made maps and owns them, even for the communities that don't require explicit licensing before putting user-made maps on a community server. * One of the enemies is anime/manga fan art, based on Naruto. > Well and here it shows that you apply double standards. In Pathological > the levels are "forced by the genre", in Tuxpuck it is just the > rectangular table and the bat (and you forgot that the second player > uses the same technique to move the bat as in the original game but > nevermind). All major game aspects are implemented from the original > games and it is easy to see from which one they stem from. Nevertheless > the code and the artwork are completely different, DFSG-free and an > independent piece of art. But Pixbros' levels which are simply bars in > vertical and horizontal directions are somehow a copyright violation. Imagine designing some intro levels of Pathological, and I think you'll find it's quite probable that they'll look like the existing intro level, simply because of the idea of the game. I haven't looked at the original or compared the other levels. Now imagine designing some levels for Pixbros or any of the games that inspired it. Even if you think of an existing level, and take its ideas and general concepts such as "circle in the middle, some enemies in the circle, some on the roof of the circle", do the new level's platforms line up exactly with the original? Pixbros' level of similarity is so close that I was surprised when I checked level 37 (the "circle in the middle" one), and saw that it does have a one-platform difference. > Sorry but this bug report really makes me sad and I'm off to do > something more useful now. Same here. While it's not PixFrogger, and it's not yet finished, I've written a playable multiplayer frog race using Python and PyGame. https://github.com/stevecotton/DartingFrogs Steve
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
Am 19.05.2017 um 02:24 schrieb Steve Cotton: > On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 11:03:24PM +0200, Markus Koschany wrote: >> What we need to check is: Does the game comply with the DFSG and does it >> infringe the copyright of another programmer/artist. In my opinion that >> is not the case here because the license is DFSG-compatible and the game >> looks and works differently in style and artwork. We are not aware of a >> verdict which states that the level resemblance infringes the rights of >> another party. > > Hi Markus, > > To clarify, I think it's a copyright violation. The copyrights in > question are the layout of the levels, the level designers' choices of > where the platforms are. For a simple level like level 30 it would be > unremarkable for games in the same genre to have a similar level, but > not the complex designs of most of the levels from 31 to 49. > >> This whole bug report reminds me of Giana Sisters, ... You are not even the copyright holder of the original game. Just just claim that the level layout in this case is a copyright violation which is not backed up by anything. I am sorry but this is layman talk and as I previously said the mere level resemblance alone is not what paragraph 2.3 in Debian's Policy is talking about. >> On the other hand we have many open source games that try to clone an >> older game but they look and behave often differently and use their own >> graphics or they just reinvent the engine and then use the original >> artwork (hence why those games are shipped in contrib) > > But the ones in contrib using original artwork only have the DFSG > parts in contrib, the copy of the original artwork isn't in contrib. Exactly. But Pixbros has its own distinct DFSG-free artwork. Can't you see that? >> Look at Pathological which is obviously a clone of Logical or Tuxpuck >> which very much resembles the Shuffle Puck Cafe game. Are they non-free >> too? I don't think so because I have played the original games and I can >> tell you that the older games had both better graphics, more levels and >> were more feature complete. They resemble each other but they are not on >> a par and the risk that some company sues Debian just for distributing >> them is highly unlikely because we make no money with them either. > > Just as they used new artwork, Pathological used (AFAIK) new level > designs. The first level looks like a level of Logical, but that's > forced by the genre, there's a limited set of level designs for a > tutorial level that introduces the concept of the game. > > With tuxpuck the level design seems to be a rectangular table, with a > rectangular area of that table that the player can move the bat to. > > Neither of these games seems to have a direct copy from the game that > inspired them. Well and here it shows that you apply double standards. In Pathological the levels are "forced by the genre", in Tuxpuck it is just the rectangular table and the bat (and you forgot that the second player uses the same technique to move the bat as in the original game but nevermind). All major game aspects are implemented from the original games and it is easy to see from which one they stem from. Nevertheless the code and the artwork are completely different, DFSG-free and an independent piece of art. But Pixbros' levels which are simply bars in vertical and horizontal directions are somehow a copyright violation. Sorry but this bug report really makes me sad and I'm off to do something more useful now. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 11:03:24PM +0200, Markus Koschany wrote: > What we need to check is: Does the game comply with the DFSG and does it > infringe the copyright of another programmer/artist. In my opinion that > is not the case here because the license is DFSG-compatible and the game > looks and works differently in style and artwork. We are not aware of a > verdict which states that the level resemblance infringes the rights of > another party. Hi Markus, To clarify, I think it's a copyright violation. The copyrights in question are the layout of the levels, the level designers' choices of where the platforms are. For a simple level like level 30 it would be unremarkable for games in the same genre to have a similar level, but not the complex designs of most of the levels from 31 to 49. > This whole bug report reminds me of Giana Sisters, ... > On the other hand we have many open source games that try to clone an > older game but they look and behave often differently and use their own > graphics or they just reinvent the engine and then use the original > artwork (hence why those games are shipped in contrib) But the ones in contrib using original artwork only have the DFSG parts in contrib, the copy of the original artwork isn't in contrib. > Look at Pathological which is obviously a clone of Logical or Tuxpuck > which very much resembles the Shuffle Puck Cafe game. Are they non-free > too? I don't think so because I have played the original games and I can > tell you that the older games had both better graphics, more levels and > were more feature complete. They resemble each other but they are not on > a par and the risk that some company sues Debian just for distributing > them is highly unlikely because we make no money with them either. Just as they used new artwork, Pathological used (AFAIK) new level designs. The first level looks like a level of Logical, but that's forced by the genre, there's a limited set of level designs for a tutorial level that introduces the concept of the game. With tuxpuck the level design seems to be a rectangular table, with a rectangular area of that table that the player can move the bat to. Neither of these games seems to have a direct copy from the game that inspired them. Regards, Steve
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
Hi, Am 12.05.2017 um 21:36 schrieb Steve Cotton: > On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:42:09AM +0200, Markus Koschany wrote: >> Am 10.05.2017 um 20:56 schrieb Adrian Bunk: >>> On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 03:50:21PM +0200, Steve Cotton wrote: ... Oh well at least this will resolve the Fenix-is-not-64-bit bugs. >>> >>> Is pixfrogger also affected? >> >> I think all images and graphics in pixfrogger are genuine and not copied >> from another (non-free) game. > > Agreed, I think Pixfrogger is OK. I was unsure about the sprites, > but only because it seems to have many different art styles, more > than I expect for the small number of images. > > Without Pixbros it's easier to reimplement Pixfrogger's on another > game engine and drop Fenix. I don't believe that's the right way to do it. We should focus on the validity of this bug report and don't use it as a pretence to get rid of Pixbros because it would (in theory) make reimplementing Pixfrogger easier, which is also highly unrealistic. Who will reimplement the game? >> I had a look a this bug report and I disagree with the assumption that >> the level designs are non-free. You can clearly see by comparing the >> screenshots from the original game and pixbros, that textures and >> graphics are completely different. Yes, the level design of pixbros >> resembles those of the other non-free games but it is not a direct copy. > > It looks like a direct copy to me, compare the platforms in 31 and 32: > > https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/niveles/nivel31.png > https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/recursos/floors/floor31.png > > https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/niveles/nivel32.png > https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/recursos/floors/floor32.png > > All of the levels have that level of similarity, I've just chosen 31 > and 32 because 21-30 have simpler designs. I understand your point and I agree that the levels look similar and resemble each other. However we as Debian are not obliged to apply some sort of preemptive obedience. If there was an actual case and decision that pixbros violates the law we would remove it ASAP from Debian. But there has never been such a case and the game is already quite old. What we need to check is: Does the game comply with the DFSG and does it infringe the copyright of another programmer/artist. In my opinion that is not the case here because the license is DFSG-compatible and the game looks and works differently in style and artwork. We are not aware of a verdict which states that the level resemblance infringes the rights of another party. This whole bug report reminds me of Giana Sisters, a game from the early C64 and Amiga days that I enjoyed playing back then. Only many years later I discovered that Nintendo, the makers of Super Mario Bros., had asked the company who distributed Giana Sisters to remove the game from all stores because it apparently infringed their trademark rights. Here you have a case of trademark violation. (they also used the tagline "the Brothers are history" and made money with it) There was never a court case but if there was a similar case for pixbros, we surely would remove it from Debian too. On the other hand we have many open source games that try to clone an older game but they look and behave often differently and use their own graphics or they just reinvent the engine and then use the original artwork (hence why those games are shipped in contrib) Look at Pathological which is obviously a clone of Logical or Tuxpuck which very much resembles the Shuffle Puck Cafe game. Are they non-free too? I don't think so because I have played the original games and I can tell you that the older games had both better graphics, more levels and were more feature complete. They resemble each other but they are not on a par and the risk that some company sues Debian just for distributing them is highly unlikely because we make no money with them either. So in short: I agree that we should remove the screenshots from the original game, similar to how we handle screenshots on screenshots.debian.net, but the mere level resemblance is not an issue for Debian. Regards, Markus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:42:09AM +0200, Markus Koschany wrote: > Am 10.05.2017 um 20:56 schrieb Adrian Bunk: > > On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 03:50:21PM +0200, Steve Cotton wrote: > >> ... > >> Oh well at least this will resolve the Fenix-is-not-64-bit bugs. > > > > Is pixfrogger also affected? > > I think all images and graphics in pixfrogger are genuine and not copied > from another (non-free) game. Agreed, I think Pixfrogger is OK. I was unsure about the sprites, but only because it seems to have many different art styles, more than I expect for the small number of images. Without Pixbros it's easier to reimplement Pixfrogger's on another game engine and drop Fenix. > I had a look a this bug report and I disagree with the assumption that > the level designs are non-free. You can clearly see by comparing the > screenshots from the original game and pixbros, that textures and > graphics are completely different. Yes, the level design of pixbros > resembles those of the other non-free games but it is not a direct copy. It looks like a direct copy to me, compare the platforms in 31 and 32: https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/niveles/nivel31.png https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/recursos/floors/floor31.png https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/niveles/nivel32.png https://sources.debian.net/data/main/p/pixbros/0.6.3-2/recursos/floors/floor32.png All of the levels have that level of similarity, I've just chosen 31 and 32 because 21-30 have simpler designs. Regards, Steve
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
Markus Koschany wrote: > graphics are completely different. Yes, the level design of pixbros > resembles those of the other non-free games but it is not a direct copy. > Also the gameplay is much different. I am not aware of any design > patents for those non-free games hence I am quite sure that there is no > risk for Debian or any breach of law. I agree wholeheartedly! If a game should be non-free because it resembles another, commercial game, then we'd have a huge problem in Debian (and in free software as a whole). - Fabian
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
Am 10.05.2017 um 20:56 schrieb Adrian Bunk: > On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 03:50:21PM +0200, Steve Cotton wrote: >> ... >> Oh well at least this will resolve the Fenix-is-not-64-bit bugs. > > Is pixfrogger also affected? > I think all images and graphics in pixfrogger are genuine and not copied from another (non-free) game. I had a look a this bug report and I disagree with the assumption that the level designs are non-free. You can clearly see by comparing the screenshots from the original game and pixbros, that textures and graphics are completely different. Yes, the level design of pixbros resembles those of the other non-free games but it is not a direct copy. Also the gameplay is much different. I am not aware of any design patents for those non-free games hence I am quite sure that there is no risk for Debian or any breach of law. However the screenshots in recursos/floors don't depict levels in pixbros but those of the original games which are copyrighted. Since the original games are non-free, I would suggest to remove them from the tarball. Regards, Markus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 03:50:21PM +0200, Steve Cotton wrote: >... > Oh well at least this will resolve the Fenix-is-not-64-bit bugs. Is pixfrogger also affected? > Steve cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Bug#861612: pixbros: level designs appear to be non-free
Package: pixbros Severity: serious Justification: Policy 2.3 Hi all, Pix Bros describes itself "as inspired" by Bubble Bobble, Snow Bros and Tumblepop. In the source package, there are screenshots of what I believe are Snow Bros' levels 21-50 in the "recursos/floors" folder. The levels for the game itself are in the "niveles" folder. Comparing them side-by-side, nivel21.png to floor21.png through to nivel50.png to floor50.png, it seems these level designs are direct copies. Wikipedia's entry for Snow Bros links to this source, please compare the screenshots to PixBros' nivel1.png, nivel2.png and nivel3.png: http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9601 Oh well at least this will resolve the Fenix-is-not-64-bit bugs. Steve
