Re: Those task packages
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Anthony Towns wrote: > > I take it that at this stage we are only allowed to play with debian-cd? > > You can still make changes to fix non-RC bugs, but please don't rely > on them getting in, or worry about them while there are RC issues that > need fixing. > > In particular, don't rely on having a new tasksel in woody for normal > installs to work correctly. > >From my point of view, getting the right packages onto the first two CDs, to be able to switch on NORECOMMENDS for the first CD and witch it off for the subsequent ones would solve many problems. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 01:40:57AM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: > > Oh, locales gets us likely unusable[2] korean, chinese-t, russian, spanish, > > japanese, german, chinese-s, and polish tasks, so we definitly need to > > come up with something. > > No, we really don't. We should definitely document it as a flaw, since > that's what it is, and we should definitely fix it at some point... > > > Updating aptitude is not release critical. > > ...but it's not a security hole, and it's not hard to work around, > and it is definitely not release critical. > > If you want a pleasant Debian install, buy all the CDs (or the DVD), > or put an http mirror in your sources.list. That's not an onerous thing > to ask. > > What _is_ release critical is making sure that once you have bought all > the CDs, you can do an install. I take it that at this stage we are only allowed to play with debian-cd? Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Joey Hess wrote: > Aj Hath Spoken. > > I won't commit this tasksel stuff I have now to the main tree then. > Should be useful post-woody though. I said that I would do my best, so: I managed to get rid of three overlaps, games, mail-server, and file-server by putting them on the first CD and they create no more overlaps. I then put python-dev on, and then web-server popped up. web-server was then added and science popped up (gnuplot). Aghhh!! However, EXCLUDE/UNEXCLUDE2 for gnuplot will fix this. The overlaps on the first CD (with gnuplot excluded from CD1) are now, c-dev (I don't know why, will take a look) chinese-s chinese-t german japanese korean polish russian spanish tex (gv, so we are stuck) The first CD is 622 MB (with gnuplot). This is the file-tree, not the image itself so does not include ~11 MB of bootdisks. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
Anthony Towns wrote: > Make the stuff that you can work, and document the stuff that doesn't > work well. "The following tasks will only be complete if you have CD#X > available or have http apt sources available" is entirely > acceptable. Making up new features for tasksel isn't. Aj Hath Spoken. I won't commit this tasksel stuff I have now to the main tree then. Should be useful post-woody though. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
(Daniel, see [1] for context.) Philip Charles wrote: > > Have you checked for any other partial overlaps with other tasks that > > are not in the above list? > > c-dev > chinese-s > chinese-t > file-server > games > german > japanese > korean > laptop > mail-server > polish > python-dev > russian > spanish > tex These are all overlaped with? Or you checked these? > IMHO we need to come up with something for woody. I take it they're overlaps then. :-( Oh, locales gets us likely unusable[2] korean, chinese-t, russian, spanish, japanese, german, chinese-s, and polish tasks, so we definitly need to come up with something. > Only one representative package needs to be marked, provided that foo is > the only task in the Task: field. eg asiya24-vfont for japanese, > doc-linux-pl for polish, inn2 for news-server etc. These will not be > found on the first CD unless the task has be specifically nominated. > Something like "Task: foo master" for these packages? AFAIK, the Task: > field only occurs in the Packages file and not the package's control, so > it should not be difficult to implement, mind you I have not really > investigated this. Some hacking of tasksel and a modification to how the > Packages files are built would be needed. Rather than changing what is in the packages files, we can just change tasksel and aptitude. There is another source of information that both already read, that is in tasksel. (I'm not sure if doint it this way is the cleanest way, but it is the simplest.) What seems easiest to do for now is add a new Essential: line to the task files, so they will look like this: Task: laptop Section: user Description: laptop system This is a collection of tools that laptop users will expect to find on a system. Essential: apmd pcmcia-cs Packages: apmd pcmcia-cs anacron netenv irda-tools irda-common toshutils noflushd Until aj's override scripts are updated, the contents of Essentual will have to remain duplicated in Packages. /usr/share/tasksel/debian-tasks.desc will be updated to include the Essential: fields, and tasksel and aptitude modified to read in that field and use it in limiting the displayed tasks. I can probably make all the necessary modifications to tasksel tomorrow. (I've done a first cut at adding Essential: fields to all tasks tonight.) Updating aptitude is not release critical. -- see shy jo [1] In summary, the debian CD images include some packages that are part of some tasks, but not all, since they are subsets of the debian archive. It's very likely that if you only have CD #1, aptitude and tasksel will say you have a number of tasks available, of which crucial parts might be missing. desktop without an X server, for instance. This *might* be ok in aptitude, it's horrid in tasksel though. [2] Maybe a few are usable, I'm sure the chinese ones won't be w/o chinese terminals and input support, for example. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 05:16:43PM +1200, Philip Charles wrote: > > IMHO we need to come up with something for woody. > > No, we don't. > > Make the stuff that you can work, and document the stuff that doesn't > work well. "The following tasks will only be complete if you have CD#X > available or have http apt sources available" is entirely > acceptable. Making up new features for tasksel isn't. > > If you'd thought of this about six months ago, it would've been fine. You > didn't, so the CDs are going to be worse than we might like. Too > bad. We'll know better for next time. > > Your goal right now is to get some CDs that allow you to do installs. > Document what can go wrong and how to avoid it going wrong, but beyond > that, nothing's necessary. > Understand why. I will see what I can do. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, Joey Hess wrote: > > Now the good news. > > desktop > > laptop > > dialup > > print-server > > unix-server make up a 542765K first CD. > > That looks good. If you need to gain space I'd suggest demoting > unix-server to a later cd. > > Have you checked for any other partial overlaps with other tasks that > are not in the above list? c-dev chinese-s chinese-t file-server games german japanese korean laptop mail-server polish python-dev russian spanish tex > > We have a real problem now there two are important CDs > > What't the other one, language stuff? junior games science file-server c-dev dns-server mail-server news-server tex python-dev tcltk-dev polish russian spanish fortran-dev german japanese korean chinese-s cyrillic french chinese-t database-server I think that there is one or two missing from the list. The is room for some more on the first CD. > > and there is no way > > we can work round this issue, and it will be worse in twelve months. The > > simple solution is to go the Red Hat way and say "use the two CDs or > > else". > > "or else network", which everyone will really be doing anyway, right? > > I figure the only people who will have only one CD and no network are > probably a rasonably close match with people who just want a desktop. Agreed. And I would add those who only want an initial installation and use a network for everything else. I have not checked to see what apps are included in desktop, but we could use the extra space for some nice stuff. Provided that we have made provision for every kind of network installation on the first CD. > > Another suggestion, use dummy packages, these would not be the same as the > > potato task-* packages. tasksel would look for these new task-* packages > > and if it found task-foo it would only then offer foo in its menu. There > > would still be a Task: field so these dummy packages would be included in > > tasks/task-woody. These would not have to be maintained as they would be > > fully functional as long as the particular task remained in existence > > regardless of changes within that task. If people really wanted to be > > sophisticated then they could be designed not to be installed. > > It's the same effect as marking packages in tasks as essential to that > task, and omitting to show the task unless they are available. If > necessary we can surely come up with something post-woody. IMHO we need to come up with something for woody. Only one representative package needs to be marked, provided that foo is the only task in the Task: field. eg asiya24-vfont for japanese, doc-linux-pl for polish, inn2 for news-server etc. These will not be found on the first CD unless the task has be specifically nominated. Something like "Task: foo master" for these packages? AFAIK, the Task: field only occurs in the Packages file and not the package's control, so it should not be difficult to implement, mind you I have not really investigated this. Some hacking of tasksel and a modification to how the Packages files are built would be needed. > > We need DVD's. In time, the last time I investigated these the cost per GB was about x3 the cost of CD-Rs. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
Philip Charles wrote: > First the bad news. desktop includes most of the other tasks, far worse > than basic-desktop. Figures. > Now the good news. > desktop > laptop > dialup > print-server > unix-server make up a 542765K first CD. That looks good. If you need to gain space I'd suggest demoting unix-server to a later cd. Have you checked for any other partial overlaps with other tasks that are not in the above list? > We have a real problem now there two are important CDs What't the other one, language stuff? > and there is no way > we can work round this issue, and it will be worse in twelve months. The > simple solution is to go the Red Hat way and say "use the two CDs or > else". "or else network", which everyone will really be doing anyway, right? I figure the only people who will have only one CD and no network are probably a rasonably close match with people who just want a desktop. > Another suggestion, use dummy packages, these would not be the same as the > potato task-* packages. tasksel would look for these new task-* packages > and if it found task-foo it would only then offer foo in its menu. There > would still be a Task: field so these dummy packages would be included in > tasks/task-woody. These would not have to be maintained as they would be > fully functional as long as the particular task remained in existence > regardless of changes within that task. If people really wanted to be > sophisticated then they could be designed not to be installed. It's the same effect as marking packages in tasks as essential to that task, and omitting to show the task unless they are available. If necessary we can surely come up with something post-woody. We need DVD's. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, Joey Hess wrote: > > > According to the tasksel README, I have not done a install from a CD. > > "On startup, the tasksel program will read /var/lib/dpkg/available to > > identify task packages (matching "task-*")." > > My understanding is that if no package mentions a task, then that task is > > not presented. > > Re-read what I said. You apparently have x-window-system-core on cd #1. > That is in the desktop task, so the desktop task will be displayed. > First the bad news. desktop includes most of the other tasks, far worse than basic-desktop. Now the good news. desktop laptop dialup print-server unix-server make up a 542765K first CD. We have a real problem now there two are important CDs and there is no way we can work round this issue, and it will be worse in twelve months. The simple solution is to go the Red Hat way and say "use the two CDs or else". Another suggestion, use dummy packages, these would not be the same as the potato task-* packages. tasksel would look for these new task-* packages and if it found task-foo it would only then offer foo in its menu. There would still be a Task: field so these dummy packages would be included in tasks/task-woody. These would not have to be maintained as they would be fully functional as long as the particular task remained in existence regardless of changes within that task. If people really wanted to be sophisticated then they could be designed not to be installed. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
Philip Charles wrote: > > Since base-desktop contains x-window-system, which depends on > > x-window-system-core, which is in the desktop task, I assume that this > > is in fact the case, and that users installing from CD #1 will see the > > desktop task, and get nothing much besides X (and perhaps not even a > > window manager) if they select it. > > > > According to the tasksel README, I have not done a install from a CD. > "On startup, the tasksel program will read /var/lib/dpkg/available to > identify task packages (matching "task-*")." > My understanding is that if no package mentions a task, then that task is > not presented. Re-read what I said. You apparently have x-window-system-core on cd #1. That is in the desktop task, so the desktop task will be displayed. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, Joey Hess wrote: > I take it there's no chance of getting the desktop task to fit on cd #1? > That's a real shame, because that's a task 50% of installers will want. > Perhaps it needs to be unbloated a bit. According to my figures, desktop, dialup, laptop and unix-server take up 323238 MB. Some of these tasks will have packages in common so the space taken will be slighty less. We have ~27 KB available on the first CD. I can but try this and see what happens. > I hope you know that it's possible to include only part of a task on a > CD, and tasksel will only install the available parts, if the task is > selected. One has to be careful which parts are included on the CD > though. If you just insclude, say, menu, on the first CD, then tasksel > will show the desktop task and let people select it, though only menu > will be installed. (This probably needs to be reconsidered). This problem is basicly solved. The packages of each task are grouped together and are put on the CD as a block. However, the task packages can split when the first CD has been filled before all the packages of a task have been placed. In my case chinese -s is split. > Since base-desktop contains x-window-system, which depends on > x-window-system-core, which is in the desktop task, I assume that this > is in fact the case, and that users installing from CD #1 will see the > desktop task, and get nothing much besides X (and perhaps not even a > window manager) if they select it. > > According to the tasksel README, I have not done a install from a CD. "On startup, the tasksel program will read /var/lib/dpkg/available to identify task packages (matching "task-*")." My understanding is that if no package mentions a task, then that task is not presented. > The ways around this that I can see are: > > 1. Include at least a working subset of the desktop task on CD #1. >Probably one of kde or gnome (and we wanted to avoid that decision, >sigh). I test the desktop, dialup, laptop and unix-server option later today and see what how much needs to be cut from desktop. > > 2. Hack debian-cd's Packages files to remove items from Task: headers of >the packages file of CD #1 that are for tasks aside from those you >listed above. Let people deal with the desktop task being on another CD. >This has big problems of its own; if the "Task: desktop" header is >missing for say, x-window-system-code on all cd's, then if the user is >using enough cd's to see the rest of the desktop task, they will be in >for a rude suprise when they don't get X. If the Packages file on CD #2 >is a superset of that on CD #1, and so on, and apt merges them in the >right way, this might be ok. A meta-package (yuck) in desktop containing the basic-desktop packages? Then desktop could be removed from the Task: field leaving only basic-desktop. There may be other tasks interrelated in the same way. Will check. > > 3. Add markers to the task files saying what packages are very important >to the task as a whole, and have tasksel refuse to display the task >unless all such packages are available. Perhaps the cleanest >solution, but it means a significant untested new chunk of code in >tasksel. The only time this will happen is when the build is moving from the first CD to the second. The way I am doing this is, cat task.list | while read LINE; do \ apt-cache dumpavail | grep-dctrl -F Task $LINE -n -s Package;done > \ ./tasks/task-woody where task.list lists the tasks in the order they are to go onto the CDs. The trick is not to sort task-woody so that each package is put on the CDs in the prescribed order. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Those task packages
Philip Charles wrote: > Been messing about with my list. These tasks fit onto the first CD. > Size, including multiboot, 637MB. > basic-desktop > laptop > dialup > print-server > unix-server > spanish > german > french > polish > russian > japanese > korean I take it there's no chance of getting the desktop task to fit on cd #1? That's a real shame, because that's a task 50% of installers will want. Perhaps it needs to be unbloated a bit. I hope you know that it's possible to include only part of a task on a CD, and tasksel will only install the available parts, if the task is selected. One has to be careful which parts are included on the CD though. If you just insclude, say, menu, on the first CD, then tasksel will show the desktop task and let people select it, though only menu will be installed. (This probably needs to be reconsidered). Since base-desktop contains x-window-system, which depends on x-window-system-core, which is in the desktop task, I assume that this is in fact the case, and that users installing from CD #1 will see the desktop task, and get nothing much besides X (and perhaps not even a window manager) if they select it. The ways around this that I can see are: 1. Include at least a working subset of the desktop task on CD #1. Probably one of kde or gnome (and we wanted to avoid that decision, sigh). 2. Hack debian-cd's Packages files to remove items from Task: headers of the packages file of CD #1 that are for tasks aside from those you listed above. Let people deal with the desktop task being on another CD. This has big problems of its own; if the "Task: desktop" header is missing for say, x-window-system-code on all cd's, then if the user is using enough cd's to see the rest of the desktop task, they will be in for a rude suprise when they don't get X. If the Packages file on CD #2 is a superset of that on CD #1, and so on, and apt merges them in the right way, this might be ok. 3. Add markers to the task files saying what packages are very important to the task as a whole, and have tasksel refuse to display the task unless all such packages are available. Perhaps the cleanest solution, but it means a significant untested new chunk of code in tasksel. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
