Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and Consensus
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 09:39:50PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Le Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 08:05:56AM +, Sam Hartman a écrit : Bill, in his role of policy editor said that he believed there was not a consensus. Hi Sam, I think that what you wrote does not reflect what happened: - Russ gave me the green light for committing the changes, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2014/02/msg00068.html. Only Policy Editors can decide that a change will be committed, thus it is my understanding that Russ, as a Policy Editor, judged that there was consensus. This is not my understanding. It seemed clear that Russ did not have time to do such review but trusted you as former policy editor. However I really did not expect you to use commit right you should not have had anymore to force the isssue. Cheers, Bill. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150720134236.GC3970@yellowpig
Bug#741573: Russ's role
On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 10:34:47AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: You said: I think that what you wrote does not reflect what happened: Charles - Russ gave me the green light for committing the changes, see Charleshttps://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2014/02/msg00068.html. Only Policy CharlesEditors can decide that a change will be committed, thus it is my understanding Charlesthat Russ, as a Policy Editor, judged that there was consensus. BillThis is not my understanding. It seemed clear that Russ did not have time to do Bill such review but trusted you as former policy editor. However I really did not Bill expect you to use commit right you should not have had anymore to Bill force the isssue. Hi. As a matter of fact finding. Russ's message, which Charles sites implies to me that Russ was swamped and didn't have time to do the commit. By seconding, he had already done the review. Seconding a bug does not imply doing a consensus search, even for a policy editor. Cheers, -- Bill. ballo...@debian.org Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150720144953.GB4706@yellowpig
Tentative Scheduling for next CTTE meeting
Based on Steve's updated voting, the time for the next meeting has moved back to 19:00 UTC from 17:00 UTC on Wednesday the 29th. If your current schedule conflicts do not reflect what you've written in meeting_poll/run_vote.sh, please update them. I will finalize the meeting time for next week's meeting on Wednesday (48 hours from now). -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com 6: I'm human. I have a thousand flaws. I break down. I get up or I don't get up. I get lost. I make the same mistakes over and over. I have scars and wounds. Sometimes when I can't bear them anymore, I drink. You can't fix me. You can't fix any of us. You can't make us perfect. -- The Prisoner (2009 Miniseries) _Checkmate_ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150720145327.GW6137@geta
Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and Consensus
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 03:06:27AM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Wasting people's hard work, and then using a lack of reply to an extra round of nitpicking as an excuse for having wasted the whole lot? The only hard work here is maintaining the menu system for ten years. Cheers, -- Bill. ballo...@debian.org Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150720133909.GB3970@yellowpig
Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and Consensus
Bill Allombert ballo...@debian.org writes: On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 09:39:50PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: I think that what you wrote does not reflect what happened: - Russ gave me the green light for committing the changes, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2014/02/msg00068.html. Only Policy Editors can decide that a change will be committed, thus it is my understanding that Russ, as a Policy Editor, judged that there was consensus. This is not my understanding. It seemed clear that Russ did not have time to do such review but trusted you as former policy editor. However I really did not expect you to use commit right you should not have had anymore to force the isssue. It would be nice if I could clear this up unambiguously, but this is like so many other things in life: it was both of those and more. I did feel that the time that there was consensus, and wouldn't have told Charles to go ahead if I hadn't. However, I also personally believed his approach was correct, and I didn't do a particularly exhaustive job of separating that impression from my attempt to determine consensus. I wasn't sure how strongly you objected, and I have a bias for keeping things moving forward. When you felt strongly enough about this to revert it, I personally was happy to have someone else make a final decision, partly because I didn't have much time to pursue it further. So I don't think it's really correct to say that I just trusted Charles. I did my own evaluation of consensus. However, at the same time, I wouldn't argue that it was the best evaluation of consensus I ever did, and certainly the fact that Charles was the one proposing the change carried additional weight for me due to his past work on Policy. It's probably also worth noting that I have a somewhat different approach on how fast to commit changes. I'm a huge believer in lazy consensus and in the power of reverts, so I tend towards committing things and reverting them if needed, rather than waiting on the first commit. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87k2tu90y5@hope.eyrie.org
Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and Consensus
On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 09:50:21PM +0200, Sune Vuorela wrote: The debian menu is de facto dead; it is time to put it out of its misery. This kind of language while customary of Sune and Josselin is inappropriate and rude to any people that have investigated significant time in maintaining menu. Though I strongly suggest that Sune and Josselin be ignored, since anyway they have both clearly stated that they were ignored the menu policy anyway, so they have no interest in the outcome. If we really want to improve communication on our list, the TC should start by rejecting rude statements and offensive referrals. Cheers, -- Bill. ballo...@debian.org Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150720204241.GF4706@yellowpig
Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and Consensus
On Monday 20 July 2015 17:14:03 Josselin Mouette wrote: Bill used his position as a policy editor to reject a change, not because it was against consensus or against the policy process, but because it was against his own opinion. Not as policy editor, but as menu maintainer. This is the root of the problem. By asking whether the policy process has been respected, you are reversing the responsibility. It was Billâs responsibility from day one to recuse himself from policy decisions on the menu. It was also Billâs responsibility, from day one, to raise his own concerns to the policy change being discussed, not to rely on other peopleâs nitpicks *after* the new policy had been approved and committed. Maybe, after all, this issue should not have been sent to the TC but to the DPL, to ask for the revocation of the abused delegation. Seconded. The debian menu is de facto dead; it is time to put it out of its misery. /Sune -- I didn’t stop pretending when I became an adult, it’s just that when I was a kid I was pretending that I fit into the rules and structures of this world. And now that I’m an adult, I pretend that those rules and structures exist. - zefrank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-ctte-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/16337487.0xHqSnfGRR@dabney
