Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Svante Signell]

Package: tech-ctte
Severity: Important

When upgrading an old system installing certain packages, like
network-manager and gdm3 systemd-sysv is installed changing the init
system. These packages depend on libpam-systemd, which depends on
systemd-sysv | systemd-shim. If systemd-shim is not installed
systemd-sysv will be, and the init system changes the default to
systemd-sysv, and changing PID 1.

Changing init system, i.e. PID1, should be warned about loudly by
debconf. Not all users want to change init system when doing and
upgrade, of course this should not happen (sometimes unnoticed by
upgrading a lot of packages).

For new installations the situation is different, systemd is the
default init system. Nevertheless, perhaps even for new installations
the user should be given a choice. At least on how to reinstall
sysvinit-core after installing the default init system: systemd-sysv in
the Debian Installer (DI) (if not solvable by other means in the DI). 

The bug on (and the discussion there) on systemd-sysv:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=747535
has ping-ponged in severity and the systemd maintainers always downgrade
the severity to wishlist and tagged it wontfix. The only way to resolve
this issue is that the CTTE makes a decision on this matter.

Other bugs related to this issue are: 760601 764186 746578

In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations

Thank you for your attention!


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Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦ 18 octobre 2014 13:32 +0200, Svante Signell  :

> In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
> 1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
> 2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations

2 is quite far-fetched. Why not a debconf warning to tell there are
alternatives to nano? And another one to tell there are alternatives to
bash? The installation will take several hours to let the user know
there are alternatives to almost any component.
-- 
Identify bad input; recover if possible.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)


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Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Clearly, the initsystem is by far, much more relevant than nano, vi, jre,
mail, x-www-browser, etc... It is a big deal.

Item 2 is important. And not to only make popularity contest more fair...
It should not only inform about alternate init systems, but also, give
people the opportunity to chose between "sysvinit | systemd".

Just my two bitcents...  :-)

-
 Thiago

On 18 October 2014 19:56, Vincent Bernat  wrote:

>  ❦ 18 octobre 2014 13:32 +0200, Svante Signell  > :
>
> > In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
> > 1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
> > 2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations
>
> 2 is quite far-fetched. Why not a debconf warning to tell there are
> alternatives to nano? And another one to tell there are alternatives to
> bash? The installation will take several hours to let the user know
> there are alternatives to almost any component.
> --
> Identify bad input; recover if possible.
> - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)
>

Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Cameron Norman]

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Vincent Bernat  wrote:
>  ❦ 18 octobre 2014 13:32 +0200, Svante Signell  :
>
>> In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
>> 1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
>> 2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations
>
> 2 is quite far-fetched. Why not a debconf warning to tell there are
> alternatives to nano? And another one to tell there are alternatives to
> bash? The installation will take several hours to let the user know
> there are alternatives to almost any component.

Well one good reason is that when you install nano or bash,
vi/vim/emacs and zsh/fish are not uninstalled. Furthermore, these
components are not necessary to boot your system into a stage where
you can login, have internet capabilities, and can install or remove
packages. The exception to this is when you remove bash, and you get a
loud warning at that point.

Cheers,
--
Cameron Norman


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Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Russ Allbery]

Hi Svante,

Svante Signell  writes:

> In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
> 1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
> 2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations

For issue 1, I think it's clear that you're asking the CTTE to overrule a
maintainer, which falls within our jurisdiction.

For issue 2, I believe this is a question for debian-installer and the
corresponding maintenance team.  Are you asking us to overrule a
maintainer decision there?  If so, could you provide a pointer to the
specific decision you're asking to overrule?  Or, if you're asking for us
to do something else, like issue technical advice, could you point at the
discussions you've had with the debian-installer team about this already?

The default would be to defer to the debian-installer team and let them
follow their normal decision-making processes, so for this to be a TC
issue, I think we need some sign that process has failed in some way
before 2 becomes actionable for us.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Josh Triplett]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 16:27:11 -0700 Cameron Norman  
wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Vincent Bernat  wrote:
> >  ❦ 18 octobre 2014 13:32 +0200, Svante Signell  :
> >
> >> In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
> >> 1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
> >> 2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations
> >
> > 2 is quite far-fetched. Why not a debconf warning to tell there are
> > alternatives to nano? And another one to tell there are alternatives to
> > bash? The installation will take several hours to let the user know
> > there are alternatives to almost any component.
> 
> Well one good reason is that when you install nano or bash,
> vi/vim/emacs and zsh/fish are not uninstalled.

And likewise, the systemd and sysvinit coexist on the same system; only
one of them can own /sbin/init, but you can have both on the same system
and boot either one via init=/lib/systemd/systemd or
init=/lib/sysvinit/init.

I don't think it makes sense to prompt on new installations of systemd.
I do think it makes sense to prompt on upgrades from sysvinit to systemd
if the user has any system configuration for sysvinit that will no
longer apply (modified /etc/inittab, modified /etc/init.d/*, etc).  I'd
prefer to avoid prompting on routine upgrades to systemd (without any
such configuration), but as a one-time migration, it wouldn't be *that*
awful.

I also think we need an entry in the release notes.

- Josh Triplett


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Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Cyril Brulebois]

[ I would usually add debian-boot@ in Cc so that my peers get into the
loop but let's not add extra noise. ]

Russ Allbery  (2014-10-18):
> Svante Signell  writes:
> 
> > In summary, the CTTE is asked to make a decision on debconf warnings on:
> > 1) Changing init system on upgrades (including sid)
> > 2) Inform about alternate init systems for new installations
> 
> For issue 1, I think it's clear that you're asking the CTTE to overrule a
> maintainer, which falls within our jurisdiction.
> 
> For issue 2, I believe this is a question for debian-installer and the
> corresponding maintenance team.  Are you asking us to overrule a
> maintainer decision there?  If so, could you provide a pointer to the
> specific decision you're asking to overrule?  Or, if you're asking for us
> to do something else, like issue technical advice, could you point at the
> discussions you've had with the debian-installer team about this already?
> 
> The default would be to defer to the debian-installer team and let them
> follow their normal decision-making processes, so for this to be a TC
> issue, I think we need some sign that process has failed in some way
> before 2 becomes actionable for us.

While it looks like a good idea to have proper documentation in the
release notes as far as the upgrade and a possible init switch are
concerned, I really fail to see why one would need to be "informed
about alternative init systems for new installations".

[A] If that means adding an extra prompt where most users will have
little to no clue as to what this question is about: no, such prompts
are very much not welcome in d-i, and this has been the case since I
first heard about d-i.

[B] If that means adding documentation in the installation guide, I
don't see why this specific topic would have to be covered there (and
translated in many languages).


Anyway, I think [A] was brought up various time (first with the
init-select thing and last occurrence was in [P] where someone
demanded we patched debootstrap to support preseeding another init
system, while preseeding another init system is possible already);
I don't recall a bug report against installation-guide about [B].

 P. https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2014/10/msg00290.html

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Bug#765803: tech-ctte: Ask before changing init system when upgrading to jessie and Inform about init systems when installing jessie

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 08:20:33PM -0300, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
> Clearly, the initsystem is by far, much more relevant than nano, vi, jre,
> mail, x-www-browser, etc... It is a big deal.

Why? I'm sure the majority of users would notice a change in
x-www-browser or sensible-editor before they'd notice a change in the
init system.

-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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