Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-21 Thread Luca Boccassi
Hello Release Team,

If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
consequent mass unblock request?
I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through the effort
if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort it before Bookworm
ships, and the bugs would become invalid and be closed as soon as it
does as per moratorium otherwise.

By Helmut's count, there's around 178 such files to move. The project
should probably have added this as a distro-wide rule as part of the
moratorium, but that ship has sailed.

Thanks!

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-21 Thread Christoph Berg
Re: Luca Boccassi
> If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
> introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
> consequent mass unblock request?

Fwiw, I would restrict that to packages that didn't have files in
these directories before. Telling a maintainer that they should
continue install foo.service to /lib/systemd, but the newly introduced
bar.service needs to got to /usr/lib/systemd seems like a lot of extra
work and asking for bugs to happen.

Christoph



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-21 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:29, Christoph Berg  wrote:
>
> Re: Luca Boccassi
> > If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
> > introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
> > consequent mass unblock request?
>
> Fwiw, I would restrict that to packages that didn't have files in
> these directories before. Telling a maintainer that they should
> continue install foo.service to /lib/systemd, but the newly introduced
> bar.service needs to got to /usr/lib/systemd seems like a lot of extra
> work and asking for bugs to happen.

Yes, this (the number of files mentioned) already excludes things that
are installed by dh addons and so, such as unit files.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-21 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:31, Luca Boccassi  wrote:
>
> On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:29, Christoph Berg  wrote:
> >
> > Re: Luca Boccassi
> > > If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
> > > introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
> > > consequent mass unblock request?
> >
> > Fwiw, I would restrict that to packages that didn't have files in
> > these directories before. Telling a maintainer that they should
> > continue install foo.service to /lib/systemd, but the newly introduced
> > bar.service needs to got to /usr/lib/systemd seems like a lot of extra
> > work and asking for bugs to happen.
>
> Yes, this (the number of files mentioned) already excludes things that
> are installed by dh addons and so, such as unit files.

Here's the list of affected packages for binaries:

abpoa
eprover
coq-hierarchy-builder
intel-cmt-cat
nbd-server
systemd
toybox
drbd-utils
finit
finit-plugins
multipath-tools
runit
nut-modbus
nut-i2c
nut-server
open-iscsi
openrc
resolvconf
iproute2
f2fs-tools
ifupdown-ng
multipath-tools
libpam-modules-bin

PAM modules:

cockpit-tests
libpam-python
libpam-alreadyloggedin
libpam-chroot
google-compute-engine-oslogin
systemd-homed

Library new ABI or minor versions:

libbrlapi0.8
libc6
libcap2
libcgroup2
libdbus-1-3
libdmraid1.0.0.rc16
libcap-ng0
libexpat1
libfuse3-3
libgpg-error0
xfsprogs
libreadline8
libkeyutils1
liblzma5
libncurses6
libncursesw6
libntfs-3g89
libnutclient2
libnutscan2
libparted-fs-resize0
libparted2
libproc2-0
libsepol2
libtinfo6
libupsclient6
zlib1g

The libraries are just minor version increase in most cases, so the
symlinks are often unchanged and cannot be moved, so I'd leave them
where they are. So that's 23 packages for binaries and 5 for PAM
modules moving from un-triplet to triplet location.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-21 Thread Lorenzo
Hi Luca,

On Mon, 22 May 2023 00:03:46 +0100
Luca Boccassi  wrote:

> On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:31, Luca Boccassi  wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:29, Christoph Berg 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Re: Luca Boccassi
> > > > If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
> > > > introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept
> > > > the consequent mass unblock request?
> > >
> > > Fwiw, I would restrict that to packages that didn't have files in
> > > these directories before. Telling a maintainer that they should
> > > continue install foo.service to /lib/systemd, but the newly
> > > introduced bar.service needs to got to /usr/lib/systemd seems
> > > like a lot of extra work and asking for bugs to happen.
> >
> > Yes, this (the number of files mentioned) already excludes things
> > that are installed by dh addons and so, such as unit files.
> 
> Here's the list of affected packages for binaries:
> 
> abpoa
> eprover
> coq-hierarchy-builder
> intel-cmt-cat
> nbd-server
> systemd
> toybox
> drbd-utils
> finit
> finit-plugins
> multipath-tools
> runit

Please exclude runit from the list as /lib/runit/ was not empty in
Bullseye.

Regards,
Lorenzo

> nut-modbus
> nut-i2c
> nut-server
> open-iscsi
> openrc
> resolvconf
> iproute2
> f2fs-tools
> ifupdown-ng
> multipath-tools
> libpam-modules-bin
> 
> PAM modules:
> 
> cockpit-tests
> libpam-python
> libpam-alreadyloggedin
> libpam-chroot
> google-compute-engine-oslogin
> systemd-homed
> 
> Library new ABI or minor versions:
> 
> libbrlapi0.8
> libc6
> libcap2
> libcgroup2
> libdbus-1-3
> libdmraid1.0.0.rc16
> libcap-ng0
> libexpat1
> libfuse3-3
> libgpg-error0
> xfsprogs
> libreadline8
> libkeyutils1
> liblzma5
> libncurses6
> libncursesw6
> libntfs-3g89
> libnutclient2
> libnutscan2
> libparted-fs-resize0
> libparted2
> libproc2-0
> libsepol2
> libtinfo6
> libupsclient6
> zlib1g
> 
> The libraries are just minor version increase in most cases, so the
> symlinks are often unchanged and cannot be moved, so I'd leave them
> where they are. So that's 23 packages for binaries and 5 for PAM
> modules moving from un-triplet to triplet location.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Luca Boccassi
> 



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Étienne Mollier
Hi Luca,

Luca Boccassi, on 2023-05-22:
> On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:31, Luca Boccassi  wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 21 May 2023 at 20:29, Christoph Berg  wrote:
> > >
> > > Re: Luca Boccassi
> > > > If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
> > > > introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
> > > > consequent mass unblock request?
> > >
> > > Fwiw, I would restrict that to packages that didn't have files in
> > > these directories before. Telling a maintainer that they should
> > > continue install foo.service to /lib/systemd, but the newly introduced
> > > bar.service needs to got to /usr/lib/systemd seems like a lot of extra
> > > work and asking for bugs to happen.
> >
> > Yes, this (the number of files mentioned) already excludes things that
> > are installed by dh addons and so, such as unit files.
> 
> Here's the list of affected packages for binaries:
> 
> abpoa

I happen to have abpoa on my radar, and its presence here is due
to a screwup of mine.  Fix is one patch away, assuming I guess
that an exception to the moratorium will be granted to these
particular situations (abpoa didn't exist in bullseye and prior,
and I understand other affected packages in the list are more or
less similar situations to avoid risks of triggering aliasing
bugs during major upgrade):

--- a/debian/install
+++ b/debian/install
@@ -1 +1 @@
-bin/abpoa*
+bin/abpoa* /usr/bin

About the timing, even from a maintainer's perspective, it is
becoming short indeed.  In any case, thanks for raising that
problem!
-- 
  .''`.  Étienne Mollier 
 : :' :  gpg: 8f91 b227 c7d6 f2b1 948c  8236 793c f67e 8f0d 11da
 `. `'   sent from /dev/pts/1, please excuse my verbosity
   `-on air: Black Bonzo - The Well


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Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:

Luca> Hello Release Team, If we were to do a MBF against packages
Luca> that in _Bookworm_ have introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or
Luca> /lib*, would you accept the consequent mass unblock request?
Luca> I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through
Luca> the effort if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort
Luca> it before Bookworm ships, and the bugs would become invalid
Luca> and be closed as soon as it does as per moratorium otherwise.

This sounds  like a really bad idea.
While technically this is consistent with the  TC's advice, what you are
proposing to do increases the chance that you're going to trigger the
dpkg disappearing file bug.

Consider:

* User installs version from testing with file in /bin
* Maintainer quickly moves the file to /usr/bin per your MBF
* Bookworm releases; user does not upgrade at this point
* Package reorganization; file moves between packages
* User upgrades; file disappears

I suspect the reason you want to make this MBF is that you believe it
will somehow make the transition easier if there are fewer files in /bin
or /usr/bin.
I don't think that's obvious to me from the debian-devel discussions,
and so i don't think there is a significant benefit in this MBF.
Without a significant benefit and with the risk of files disappearing
for people tracking testing/unstable, I think that this is a bad idea.



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:22, Sam Hartman  wrote:
>
> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
>
> Luca> Hello Release Team, If we were to do a MBF against packages
> Luca> that in _Bookworm_ have introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or
> Luca> /lib*, would you accept the consequent mass unblock request?
> Luca> I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through
> Luca> the effort if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort
> Luca> it before Bookworm ships, and the bugs would become invalid
> Luca> and be closed as soon as it does as per moratorium otherwise.
>
> This sounds  like a really bad idea.
> While technically this is consistent with the  TC's advice, what you are
> proposing to do increases the chance that you're going to trigger the
> dpkg disappearing file bug.
>
> Consider:
>
> * User installs version from testing with file in /bin
> * Maintainer quickly moves the file to /usr/bin per your MBF
> * Bookworm releases; user does not upgrade at this point
> * Package reorganization; file moves between packages
> * User upgrades; file disappears

What "package reorganization" would that be? Are you aware of any such
thing happening in the next couple of weeks before release?

> I suspect the reason you want to make this MBF is that you believe it
> will somehow make the transition easier if there are fewer files in /bin
> or /usr/bin.

No, the main reason is that Helmut asked for this. And the ask makes
sense: it's something that should have been part of the TC guidance,
introducing new files in the wrong locations makes little sense.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:

Luca> On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:22, Sam Hartman  wrote:
>> 
>> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
>> 
Luca> Hello Release Team, If we were to do a MBF against packages
Luca> that in _Bookworm_ have introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or
Luca> /lib*, would you accept the consequent mass unblock request?
Luca> I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through
Luca> the effort if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort
Luca> it before Bookworm ships, and the bugs would become invalid
Luca> and be closed as soon as it does as per moratorium otherwise.
>> 
>> This sounds like a really bad idea.  While technically this is
>> consistent with the TC's advice, what you are proposing to do
>> increases the chance that you're going to trigger the dpkg
>> disappearing file bug.
>> 
>> Consider:
>> 
>> * User installs version from testing with file in /bin *
>> Maintainer quickly moves the file to /usr/bin per your MBF *
>> Bookworm releases; user does not upgrade at this point * Package
>> reorganization; file moves between packages * User upgrades; file
>> disappears

Luca> What "package reorganization" would that be? Are you aware of
Luca> any such thing happening in the next couple of weeks before
Luca> release?

Who said anything about next couple of weeks.  This affects testing and
unstable users *after the release*.  It is my experience of Debian that
outside of freezes package reorganizations happen regularly.

I think your plan is safe for stable users if we actually find a
solution to canonicalize paths during the next cycle.  I do not think
your plan is safe for people who track testing, and for me there's not
enough benefit to justify breaking testing.



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:34, Sam Hartman  wrote:
>
> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
>
> Luca> On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:22, Sam Hartman  
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
> >>
> Luca> Hello Release Team, If we were to do a MBF against packages
> Luca> that in _Bookworm_ have introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or
> Luca> /lib*, would you accept the consequent mass unblock request?
> Luca> I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through
> Luca> the effort if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort
> Luca> it before Bookworm ships, and the bugs would become invalid
> Luca> and be closed as soon as it does as per moratorium otherwise.
> >>
> >> This sounds like a really bad idea.  While technically this is
> >> consistent with the TC's advice, what you are proposing to do
> >> increases the chance that you're going to trigger the dpkg
> >> disappearing file bug.
> >>
> >> Consider:
> >>
> >> * User installs version from testing with file in /bin *
> >> Maintainer quickly moves the file to /usr/bin per your MBF *
> >> Bookworm releases; user does not upgrade at this point * Package
> >> reorganization; file moves between packages * User upgrades; file
> >> disappears
>
> Luca> What "package reorganization" would that be? Are you aware of
> Luca> any such thing happening in the next couple of weeks before
> Luca> release?
>
> Who said anything about next couple of weeks.  This affects testing and
> unstable users *after the release*.  It is my experience of Debian that
> outside of freezes package reorganizations happen regularly.

So what you are worried is the combination of a testing installation
from~one year ago, that is otherwise never touched for say another
year, and also that has one of those 23 packages installed in the old
version, and also that same package of those 23 gets rearranged? That
seems vanishingly unlikely, and I am not sure how supported it is to
upgrade from "testing as bookworm" to "testing as trixie" without
passing from bookworm stable, given we don't support skipping releases
I'd have imagined that would not be supported either, but what do I
know.
Anyway, this is Helmut's request, so I'll leave the decision to him.

> I think your plan is safe for stable users if we actually find a
> solution to canonicalize paths during the next cycle.  I do not think
> your plan is safe for people who track testing, and for me there's not
> enough benefit to justify breaking testing.

Please stop saying "your plan", as I have already mentioned it was
someone else's request:

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Étienne Mollier
Luca Boccassi, on 2023-05-22:
> On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:34, Sam Hartman  wrote:
> >
> > > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
> >
> > Luca> On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:22, Sam Hartman  
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
> > >>
> > Luca> Hello Release Team, If we were to do a MBF against packages
> > Luca> that in _Bookworm_ have introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or
> > Luca> /lib*, would you accept the consequent mass unblock request?
> > Luca> I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through
> > Luca> the effort if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort
> > Luca> it before Bookworm ships, and the bugs would become invalid
> > Luca> and be closed as soon as it does as per moratorium otherwise.
> > >>
> > >> This sounds like a really bad idea.  While technically this is
> > >> consistent with the TC's advice, what you are proposing to do
> > >> increases the chance that you're going to trigger the dpkg
> > >> disappearing file bug.
> > >>
> > >> Consider:
> > >>
> > >> * User installs version from testing with file in /bin *
> > >> Maintainer quickly moves the file to /usr/bin per your MBF *
> > >> Bookworm releases; user does not upgrade at this point * Package
> > >> reorganization; file moves between packages * User upgrades; file
> > >> disappears
> >
> > Luca> What "package reorganization" would that be? Are you aware of
> > Luca> any such thing happening in the next couple of weeks before
> > Luca> release?
> >
> > Who said anything about next couple of weeks.  This affects testing and
> > unstable users *after the release*.  It is my experience of Debian that
> > outside of freezes package reorganizations happen regularly.
> 
> So what you are worried is the combination of a testing installation
> from~one year ago, that is otherwise never touched for say another
> year, and also that has one of those 23 packages installed in the old
> version, and also that same package of those 23 gets rearranged? That
> seems vanishingly unlikely,

Against all odds, I can see very well this happening, so I guess
it shouldn't hurt to flag somehow packages having had to proceed
per the MBF.  Big "warning" comments at a few strategic points
in d/control and install files might probably be a bare minimum,
so team fellows or future self won't trip on the carpet when
tempted to reorganize files.

-- 
  .''`.  Étienne Mollier 
 : :' :  gpg: 8f91 b227 c7d6 f2b1 948c  8236 793c f67e 8f0d 11da
 `. `'   sent from /dev/tty1, please excuse my verbosity
   `-on air: The Flower Kings - Bavarian Skies


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Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 22:13, Étienne Mollier  wrote:
>
> Luca Boccassi, on 2023-05-22:
> > On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:34, Sam Hartman  wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
> > >
> > > Luca> On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 20:22, Sam Hartman  
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
> > > >>
> > > Luca> Hello Release Team, If we were to do a MBF against packages
> > > Luca> that in _Bookworm_ have introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or
> > > Luca> /lib*, would you accept the consequent mass unblock request?
> > > Luca> I am asking beforehand as there's no point in going through
> > > Luca> the effort if you don't, the advantage is only if we can sort
> > > Luca> it before Bookworm ships, and the bugs would become invalid
> > > Luca> and be closed as soon as it does as per moratorium otherwise.
> > > >>
> > > >> This sounds like a really bad idea.  While technically this is
> > > >> consistent with the TC's advice, what you are proposing to do
> > > >> increases the chance that you're going to trigger the dpkg
> > > >> disappearing file bug.
> > > >>
> > > >> Consider:
> > > >>
> > > >> * User installs version from testing with file in /bin *
> > > >> Maintainer quickly moves the file to /usr/bin per your MBF *
> > > >> Bookworm releases; user does not upgrade at this point * Package
> > > >> reorganization; file moves between packages * User upgrades; file
> > > >> disappears
> > >
> > > Luca> What "package reorganization" would that be? Are you aware of
> > > Luca> any such thing happening in the next couple of weeks before
> > > Luca> release?
> > >
> > > Who said anything about next couple of weeks.  This affects testing and
> > > unstable users *after the release*.  It is my experience of Debian that
> > > outside of freezes package reorganizations happen regularly.
> >
> > So what you are worried is the combination of a testing installation
> > from~one year ago, that is otherwise never touched for say another
> > year, and also that has one of those 23 packages installed in the old
> > version, and also that same package of those 23 gets rearranged? That
> > seems vanishingly unlikely,
>
> Against all odds, I can see very well this happening, so I guess
> it shouldn't hurt to flag somehow packages having had to proceed
> per the MBF.  Big "warning" comments at a few strategic points
> in d/control and install files might probably be a bare minimum,
> so team fellows or future self won't trip on the carpet when
> tempted to reorganize files.

In case such an update is a supported use case, then yes, adding a
comment to the install file where the change is applied would make
perfect sense, as that's where it would be hypothetically removed from
in that example.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Sam Hartman
;> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
Luca> So what you are worried is the combination of a testing
Luca> installation from~one year ago, that is otherwise never
Luca> touched for say another year, and also that has one of those
Luca> 23 packages installed in the old version, and also that same
Luca> package of those 23 gets rearranged?

I find I'm joining the growing number of people who cannot assume good
faith.
I'm disappointed that you choose to  diminish others arguments, working
to find the quickest way to dismiss the contributions of people who are
interacting with you rather than   to explore what they are saying and
see if there is something you can learn from their contributions.
So, let's rephrase this, trying to make the situation  I'm talking about
likely rather than working to dismiss it:

> So what you are worried is the combination of a testing
> installation from just before the unblocks migrate into testing, that
> is next upgraded a few months after bookworm releases, which  that has one of 
> those
Luca> 23 packages installed, and  one of those packages gets
rearranged?

Yes, that's the situation I'm considering.
The difference in how I presented things and how you presented things
are:

* You chose a much older initial testing image than was necessary.

* In the phrases where I edited your language, you chose to emphasize
  what you see as a small number of packages, and to amplify what you
  see as improbabilities.

Instead, you could have presented my argument in a neutral manner,
working to confirm understanding, and actually treated my contribution
with respect.



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 22:40, Sam Hartman  wrote:
>
> ;> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
> Luca> So what you are worried is the combination of a testing
> Luca> installation from~one year ago, that is otherwise never
> Luca> touched for say another year, and also that has one of those
> Luca> 23 packages installed in the old version, and also that same
> Luca> package of those 23 gets rearranged?
>
> I find I'm joining the growing number of people who cannot assume good
> faith.
> I'm disappointed that you choose to  diminish others arguments, working
> to find the quickest way to dismiss the contributions of people who are
> interacting with you rather than   to explore what they are saying and
> see if there is something you can learn from their contributions.

This is how you started your "contribution" to an otherwise normal and
tension-less thread:

> This sounds  like a really bad idea.
...
> I suspect the reason you want to make this MBF is that you believe it
will somehow make the transition easier if there are fewer files in /bin
or /usr/bin.

IE, you immediately escalated it with aggressiveness followed by
baseless accusations verging on the conspiratorial.
So next time you might want to consider getting off that high horse
first, before giving others lessons in how to approach a thread.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:

>> I suspect the reason you want to make this MBF is that you
>> believe it
Luca> will somehow make the transition easier if there are fewer
Luca> files in /bin or /usr/bin.

Luca> IE, you immediately escalated it with aggressiveness followed
Luca> by baseless accusations verging on the conspiratorial.

I regret that my second statement came across as an accusation and
certainly that you heard it as a conspiracy.
I'd like to be heard differently.
My understanding at the time (which you have since corrected) is that
you were making the proposal because you believed it would make a
transition to canonical paths easier.
In my mind that would be a good reason for advocating for such a
transition.
That is the spirit in which I made the assumption about your reasoning.
Again, I regret that you heard  things in a different tone.

I read your original message as a valuable contribution that in my
analysis I  thought was a bad idea because of the dpkg disappearing file
bug.

--Sam



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-22 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 23:07, Sam Hartman  wrote:
>
> > "Luca" == Luca Boccassi  writes:
>
> >> I suspect the reason you want to make this MBF is that you
> >> believe it
> Luca> will somehow make the transition easier if there are fewer
> Luca> files in /bin or /usr/bin.
>
> Luca> IE, you immediately escalated it with aggressiveness followed
> Luca> by baseless accusations verging on the conspiratorial.
>
> I regret that my second statement came across as an accusation and
> certainly that you heard it as a conspiracy.
> I'd like to be heard differently.
> My understanding at the time (which you have since corrected) is that
> you were making the proposal because you believed it would make a
> transition to canonical paths easier.
> In my mind that would be a good reason for advocating for such a
> transition.
> That is the spirit in which I made the assumption about your reasoning.
> Again, I regret that you heard  things in a different tone.
>
> I read your original message as a valuable contribution that in my
> analysis I  thought was a bad idea because of the dpkg disappearing file
> bug.

Thank you for your clarification, I think the example you brought up
is worth considering. Do you feel that Étienne's suggestion of
documenting it in the place where such a change would necessarily have
to take place so that it can't be missed (e.g.: the install file)
would be an adequate safeguard?

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi



Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-23 Thread Paul Gevers

Hi,

On 21-05-2023 21:22, Luca Boccassi wrote:

If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
consequent mass unblock request?


Short answer is no, it's too late.

Paul


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Re: Is an MBF and unblock for packages introducing new files in /bin or /sbin or /lib in Bookworm acceptable at this stage?

2023-05-23 Thread Luca Boccassi
On Tue, 23 May 2023 at 17:48, Paul Gevers  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 21-05-2023 21:22, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > If we were to do a MBF against packages that in _Bookworm_ have
> > introduced new files in /bin, /sbin or /lib*, would you accept the
> > consequent mass unblock request?
>
> Short answer is no, it's too late.

Understandable, thanks for checking.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi