please stop

[Joey Hess]

I am astounded that, in #762194, the technical committe has 

1. Decided it should make a decision, when no disagreement
   between maintainers of affected packages is involved.
2. Ignored evidence of ongoing work.
   (specifically, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762194#25)
3. Plowed ahead with a vote that decides a massively complicated
   issue with a grand total of 3 days of discussion.

This is not a decision-making process that will yeild a high-quality
distibution. Or one that I can be proud to be involved with. Or one
that, frankly, gives me any confidence in the technical committee's
current membership or indeed reason to continue to exist.

-- 
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Re: please stop

[Russ Allbery]

Joey Hess  writes:

> I am astounded that, in #762194, the technical committe has 

> 1. Decided it should make a decision, when no disagreement
>between maintainers of affected packages is involved.

Er, what decision did we make in that bug?

The reason why I supported that resolution is that it's *not* a decision.
It's a statement that says "hey, we were asked to decide this, but there's
a bunch of other stuff going on right now, so here's our plan, and we're
not making a decision at this time."  With some clarification of what an
earlier decision meant, just in case anyone was confused.

> 2. Ignored evidence of ongoing work.
>(specifically, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762194#25)
> 3. Plowed ahead with a vote that decides a massively complicated
>issue with a grand total of 3 days of discussion.

I really don't believe that it does this.

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Re: please stop

[Joey Hess]

Russ Allbery wrote:
> Joey Hess  writes:
> 
> > I am astounded that, in #762194, the technical committe has 
> 
> > 1. Decided it should make a decision, when no disagreement
> >between maintainers of affected packages is involved.
> 
> Er, what decision did we make in that bug?
> 
> The reason why I supported that resolution is that it's *not* a decision.

4. For the moment, we invite concrete proposals for technical changes
   which would arrange that 1. new jessie installations using Linux
   would get systemd but 2. existing installations retain their
   existing init system so far as possible.

That appears to be an implicit decision that the cttee is overruling the
current upgrade path.

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Re: please stop

[Joey Hess]

I'll add that the ctte is rubber-stamping Ian's wording, when that went
*so* well last time. 

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Re: please stop

[Don Armstrong]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014, Joey Hess wrote:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Joey Hess  writes:
> > 
> > > I am astounded that, in #762194, the technical committe has 
> > 
> > > 1. Decided it should make a decision, when no disagreement
> > >between maintainers of affected packages is involved.
> > 
> > Er, what decision did we make in that bug?
> > 
> > The reason why I supported that resolution is that it's *not* a decision.
> 
> 4. For the moment, we invite concrete proposals for technical changes
>which would arrange that 1. new jessie installations using Linux
>would get systemd but 2. existing installations retain their
>existing init system so far as possible.
> 
> That appears to be an implicit decision that the cttee is overruling the
> current upgrade path.

I can see now how it could be read that way, but that was not the intent
(or at least, my intent).

In order for the CTTE to actually decide the core question of #762194
(whether upgrades should always get systemd or not), we have to have
concrete technical proposals which implement either one of those
solutions.

In the absence of concrete technical proposals with adequate testing,
I personally am unwilling to make a decision.

This paragraph sought to obtain these technical proposals.

In retrospect, the paragraph probably should have been reworded to also
request technical proposals for existing installations to switch to
systemd on upgrade which also allow for opting out.

Please consider this a request for those as well.

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it.
 -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi


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Re: please stop

[Russ Allbery]

Joey Hess  writes:

> 4. For the moment, we invite concrete proposals for technical changes
>which would arrange that 1. new jessie installations using Linux
>would get systemd but 2. existing installations retain their
>existing init system so far as possible.

> That appears to be an implicit decision that the cttee is overruling the
> current upgrade path.

Ack, no, definitely not.  That is several of us saying "there's no way we
can rule on this with nothing but abstract conceptual descriptions; we
would need some sort of concrete proposal for exactly what the alternate
world would look like before we could begin to evaluate it."

If that process leads to everyone reaching consensus on a different way to
handle things (which would be my ideal outcome), that would be awesome,
and we could then do nothing.

-- 
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Re: please stop

[Russ Allbery]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> If that process leads to everyone reaching consensus on a different way
> to handle things (which would be my ideal outcome), that would be
> awesome, and we could then do nothing.

Or, to be clear, a consensus on doing things the way that they're being
done now.  The point was more that a consensus that didn't involve us
would be my ideal outcome.

-- 
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Re: please stop

[Nikolaus Rath]

Joey Hess  writes:
> I'll add that the ctte is rubber-stamping Ian's wording, when that went
> *so* well last time.

I believe this issue is at least partly caused by the fact that the work
of the tech ctte has, for the last two years or so, been effectively
split between just two people: Ian is drafting resolutions, and Russ is
discussing with involved parties to better understand the situations. As
far as I can tell, the activity of the rest of the committee is
restricted to voting and the occasional presence at the IRC meetings.

I don't think anyone should be critized for that individually, the ctte
members are doing volunteer jobs like everyone else in Debian. However,
I think institutionally this is a bit of a problem, because this is not
how the ctte was intended to function.


Best,
-Nikolaus

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Re: please stop

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 07:49:10PM -0800, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> Joey Hess  writes:
> > I'll add that the ctte is rubber-stamping Ian's wording, when that went
> > *so* well last time.

> I believe this issue is at least partly caused by the fact that the work
> of the tech ctte has, for the last two years or so, been effectively
> split between just two people: Ian is drafting resolutions, and Russ is
> discussing with involved parties to better understand the situations. As
> far as I can tell, the activity of the rest of the committee is
> restricted to voting and the occasional presence at the IRC meetings.

I don't think that this list is the appropriate place to have such a meta
discussion about the committee.  debian-project is probably more
appropriate.

In any case, as someone who has spent many long hours dealing with TC
business over the past two years, I categorically reject this
characterization that only two people are doing the work of the committee. 

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
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Re: please stop

[Nikolaus Rath]

Steve Langasek  writes:
> On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 07:49:10PM -0800, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
>> Joey Hess  writes:
>> > I'll add that the ctte is rubber-stamping Ian's wording, when that went
>> > *so* well last time.
>
>> I believe this issue is at least partly caused by the fact that the work
>> of the tech ctte has, for the last two years or so, been effectively
>> split between just two people: Ian is drafting resolutions, and Russ is
>> discussing with involved parties to better understand the situations. As
>> far as I can tell, the activity of the rest of the committee is
>> restricted to voting and the occasional presence at the IRC meetings.
>
> In any case, as someone who has spent many long hours dealing with TC
> business over the past two years, I categorically reject this
> characterization that only two people are doing the work of the committee. 

I'm happy to hear that. I should have said that it /seems/ to be split
up mostly between Ian and Russ.

Best,
-Nikolaus
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Re: please stop

[Russ Allbery]

Nikolaus Rath  writes:
> Steve Langasek  writes:

>> In any case, as someone who has spent many long hours dealing with TC
>> business over the past two years, I categorically reject this
>> characterization that only two people are doing the work of the
>> committee.

> I'm happy to hear that. I should have said that it /seems/ to be split
> up mostly between Ian and Russ.

I just came off of a few months of not doing any TC work at all, not even
attending the meetings, and only managed to go to an hour meeting and do
some on-list discussion in the past month.  I've actually been one of the
least active members recently.

-- 
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