Re: netstsd depends on cpp?

[Nicolás Lichtmaier]

> >  Why should netstd depend on cpp?
> rpcgen needs cpp. I forgot to remove the dependency when I moved rpcgen
> from netstd to netbase. The next netbase package will suggest cpp.

 Great, thanks!


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Re: netstsd depends on cpp?

[Peter Tobias]

On Apr 26, Nicolás Lichtmaier wrote:
>  Nothing shows up with:
> 
> grep cpp $(cat /var/lib/dpkg/info/netstd.list) /var/lib/dpkg/info/netstd.*
> 
>  Why should netstd depend on cpp?

rpcgen needs cpp. I forgot to remove the dependency when I moved rpcgen
from netstd to netbase. The next netbase package will suggest cpp.


Thanks,

Peter

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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
>   under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
>   Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
>
>   a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
>   source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
> 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software
> interchange; 

Note that Sections 1 and 2 do NOT require that all the source be
licensed under the same terms.

I don't see any requirement that all code be relicensed under the
GPL, only a "source code available" requirement (and even then
not always, for proprietary operating systems).

[I've taken the liberty of not quoting the rest of the stuff which
basically just re-makes this point.]

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[aqy6633]

> Please quote the relevant section.

With pleasure :)

> Meanwhile, here's an extract from the GPL that might interest you: 
> 
>These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If
>identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program,
>and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in
>themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those
>sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you
>distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based
>on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms
>of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the
>entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote
>it.

The quote above is at the end of section 2 of GPL and applies only to section
2, while the following is a quote from section 3:

  3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
  under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
  Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
   
  a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
  source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
  1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software
  interchange; 

and followed by

 The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
 making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source
 code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
^^^
 associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to
 control compilation and installation of the executable.  However, as a
 special exception, the source code distributed need not include
 anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary
 form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the
 operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component
 itself accompanies the executable.

Thanks.

Alex Y.
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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not exactly. GPL says that I can distribute a binary if it's source code
> of it and all of it parts (and libraries used) is available under GPL.

Please quote the relevant section.

Meanwhile, here's an extract from the GPL that might interest you: 

   These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If
   identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program,
   and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in
   themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those
   sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you
   distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based
   on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms
   of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the
   entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote
   it.

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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[aqy6633]

> Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > First of all, there is no distinction between static and dynamic
> > linkage from either Motif license or GPL point of view. (Well,
> > actually Motif has one restriction on distribution of statically
> > linked _shared_libraries_, for quite obvious reason - to prevent the
> > distribution of simple wrappers).
> 
> The GPL has a clause that says you can only distribute a binary
> you got from compiling the program if you can do so in a fashion that
> all third parties can be licensed to do so at no charge.  Because
> dynamically linked motif doesn't give you a license to use the program
> unless you own a motif library, this is a distinction.

Not exactly. GPL says that I can distribute a binary if it's source code
of it and all of it parts (and libraries used) is available under GPL.
(With well-known exception for the OS code and parts shipped with OS as an
essential part)
Since Motif source is not available under GPL, whether it is dynamic and
static linkage doesn't matter.

Thanks.

Alex Y.

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Re: base-files 1.9 (source all) uploaded to master

[Richard Braakman]

> Changes:
>  base-files (1.9) frozen unstable; urgency=low

>* nsswitch.conf: Use "compat" instead of "db files" for passwd, group
>  and shadow (Bug #10896).

I think this is a bad time to make changes to the default nsswitch.conf
in hamm.  Historically the configuration of nsswitch has been quite tricky;
its current contents are the result of much experimentation and bughunting.

I reviewed bug #10896, and it does not list any specific bad effects
of having nsswitch the way it is now.

I strongly recommend against this change, unless it can be shown to fix
something that is broken.

Richard Braakman


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First of all, there is no distinction between static and dynamic
> linkage from either Motif license or GPL point of view. (Well,
> actually Motif has one restriction on distribution of statically
> linked _shared_libraries_, for quite obvious reason - to prevent the
> distribution of simple wrappers).

The GPL has a clause that says you can only distribute a binary
you got from compiling the program if you can do so in a fashion that
all third parties can be licensed to do so at no charge.  Because
dynamically linked motif doesn't give you a license to use the program
unless you own a motif library, this is a distinction.

> Second, GPL prohibits distribution of emacs Linux binaries linked
> with Motif either way. (And if it allowed, emacs-?motif would go to
> contrib, not non-free).

If Motif were commonly distributed to debian linux users, we could put
it in contrib. [Except, with the current Motif license we couldn't ship
a motif package and an emacs package together. Then again, with the
current Motif license we can't ship a motif package.]

But, now that I think about it, we'd be hard pressed to even put it
in non-free. The "commonly available" exception wouldn't really apply
to emacs-smotif.deb. However, if "red-hat linux" were considered an
operating system which was distinct from "debian linux", we could
probably distribute an emacs-smotif.rpm for "red-hat", but that's
getting way outside our normal scope of operations.

The existence of the alien package only underlies this lack of
distinction.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[aqy6633]

> Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If you think the GPL is wierd, you should take a look at the Motif
> > > license for Linux.
> > 
> > Looking...
> > And so???
> > 
> > Way less restrictive as far as linking with the library is concerned.
> 
> You're talking about dynamic linking or static linking?  Debian can
> ship emacs if it's statically linked against Motif, but by our own
> policies it would have to go in non-free.
> 
> If anyone could be licensed to use an emacs which is dynamically linked
> against Motif, then Debian could also ship this flavor of emacs.

Stop.
I am totally confused at this point. Are you sure in what you just said?

First of all, there is no distinction between static and dynamic linkage
from either Motif license or GPL point of view.
(Well, actually Motif has one restriction on distribution of statically linked 
_shared_libraries_, for quite obvious reason - to prevent the distribution of
simple wrappers).

Second, GPL prohibits distribution of emacs Linux binaries linked with Motif 
either way. (And if it allowed, emacs-?motif would go to contrib, not non-free).

Thanks.

Alex Y.
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Re: cruft : great program ! everyone should use it !

[Joey Hess]

Andreas Jellinghaus wrote:
> with MAKEDEV -I you can create device files in the local directory,
> even within fakeroot.

No you can't. Making such files requires root permissions. Fakeroot emulates
making them, but from outside fakeroot, they look like normal 0 byte files.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: policy suggestion (seeking discussion)

[Enrique Zanardi]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 04:34:35PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> Enrique Zanardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm not a dpkg expert, but AFAIK modifying directly the dpkg databases
> > (yes, almost everything under var/lib/dpkg are dpkg databases) is a
> > Wrong Thing (TM) In the current implementation those databases are
> > ASCII files, but that may change (and surely _will_ change) in the
> > future, so relying in that format will cause compatibility problems.
> > The right way to solve that issue is by adding an(other) option to
> > dpkg.
> 
> Um...
> 
> I don't like the idea of making dpkg itself yet more complicated.
> 
> I think it's reasonable to supply an independent tool which serves
> this purpose.  [I think it's reasonable to do this for every instance
> where dpkg must run while dpkg is already running.]

Well, there's a way to fit both needs (not complicating dpkg itself, and
not editing databases directly). Use libdpkg (or dpkg-perl, or
dpkg-python, or...). I have used it for simple database manipulations
(mainly reading pkg info) and it works fine. I'm sure everybody will
benefit if we use (and debug, and document) those tools in our little
projects. That way, as far as the API remains unchanged the database
format can evolve without breaking anything.

Thanks,
--
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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If you think the GPL is wierd, you should take a look at the Motif
> > license for Linux.
> 
> Looking...
> And so???
> 
> Way less restrictive as far as linking with the library is concerned.

You're talking about dynamic linking or static linking?  Debian can
ship emacs if it's statically linked against Motif, but by our own
policies it would have to go in non-free.

If anyone could be licensed to use an emacs which is dynamically linked
against Motif, then Debian could also ship this flavor of emacs.

I consider these to be Motif restrictions, not GPL restrictions,
which is why I made my "If you think the GPL is wierd" comment.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing (OFF-TOPIC)

[Raul Miller]

Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is perfectly legal, apparently, to have a GPLed program use (e.g.
> shell out to) a commercial piece of software. It has to be - to
> disallow this would be very stupid indeed. And indeed, the whole idea
> of have standard APIs for program communication (like SQL, although
> that's a bad example because there's no real standard for how to
> actually send the queries) is that, I, the user, can choose which
> programs (which RDBMS, for example) to use.

Then again, it's probably not legal to ship a GPL'd program which has
hard coded into it a system call that only works with proprietary
software.

It's legal to link GPL'd software against limited use, proprietary
software.  You just can't distribute it.

[Do we need a special list to discuss GPL copyright issues?  This
is getting out of hand.]

-- 
Raul


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Re: policy suggestion (seeking discussion)

[Raul Miller]

Enrique Zanardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not a dpkg expert, but AFAIK modifying directly the dpkg databases
> (yes, almost everything under var/lib/dpkg are dpkg databases) is a
> Wrong Thing (TM) In the current implementation those databases are
> ASCII files, but that may change (and surely _will_ change) in the
> future, so relying in that format will cause compatibility problems.
> The right way to solve that issue is by adding an(other) option to
> dpkg.

Um...

I don't like the idea of making dpkg itself yet more complicated.

I think it's reasonable to supply an independent tool which serves
this purpose.  [I think it's reasonable to do this for every instance
where dpkg must run while dpkg is already running.]

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[aqy6633]

> If you think the GPL is wierd, you should take a look at the Motif
> license for Linux.

Looking...
And so???

Way less restrictive as far as linking with the library is concerned.

Alex Y.
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Out of town for a week.

[Steve Greenland]

I'm going to be out of town from April 27th-May 2. If any critical
bugs come up on my packages, please feel free to do a non-maintainers
release. Note that I just uploaded cron-3.0pl1-45, which has a fix for
bug 21426; I don't know how long it will take to make into frozen.

Thanks,
Steve


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Shaya Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What defines a standard linux installation. Each dist. in reality
> is it's own OS. Red Hat ships Motif, would it be legal for them to
> distribute a GPL'd program linked with Motif, and not for debian?

Only if the result can "be licensed as a whole at no charge to all
third parties under the terms of" the GPL.

> Essentially, I think that this part of the GPL is very vauge, and when
> comes down to real legal terms is on the shaky side.

If you think the GPL is wierd, you should take a look at the Motif
license for Linux.

> As an aside, I am beggining to think that we need a better license,
> from a legal perspective, because with all the issues of shared
> libraries, "essential parts", and who knows what else, if someone
> would really try to challange the GPL in a court, I don't know if it
> would stand up.

FUD.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Richard Braakman]

Shaya Potter wrote:
> What defines a standard linux installation.  Each dist. in reality is it's
> own OS.  Red Hat ships Motif, would it be legal for them to distribute a
> GPL'd program linked with Motif, and not for debian?

The GPL specifically forbids the OS vendor from making use of the
shipped-with-the-OS clause.  (This closes a large loophole).
So if Motif is considered a standard part of the Red Hat OS, then
everyone *except* Red Hat can distribute such a program.

Richard Braakman


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Re: consistency check

[Marcus Brinkmann]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 06:11:25PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 09:26:24AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > i am always not sure, wether my system is OK. :) sometimes it might be
> > useful to do a new installation (no update) only because then much of the
> > old unneeded rubbish is gone.
> 
> *shudder* 
> 
> Reboots are for new kernels.

And for libc5-libc6 transition ;) Well, I always amnage to crash something
when mangeling with svgamode, X and dosemu, I hope ggi will be an integral
solution here. 

> Reinstalls are for new computers.

I get your point and Debian is aiming at that (and is doing a pretty good
job). I even had success avoiding a reinstall when I crashed the root
partition (/etc without backup!). This shows how great Debian is.

However, two things come to mind: a) Testing purposes (developers only) and
b) Repartitioning (here you have a good chance for a reinstall, because
moving the root directories across partitions can be a pain, if you don't
know your tools well (/dev and /proc comes to mind)).

I still find your two rules of thumb very well said, I'm just a little
verbose today and am only chatting ;)

Have a nice day,
Marcus

-- 
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Re: 21164 must be fixed before 2.0.34 comes out!

[Marcus Brinkmann]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 12:48:39PM +0100, James Troup wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> > On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 08:25:06AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Herbert Xu wrote:
> > > > FWIW, I just tried it on my Debian 2.0 2.0.32 machine:
> > > what means FWIW ?
> > 
> > For what it's worth.
> > 
> > Note: there are several useful acronym lists / search systems on the
> > web [ ... ]
> 
> and the `jargon' package in doc/

Yes, but FWIW is not part of Jargon atm (4.0.0-3), although someone submitted
an entry for FWIW, IIRC ;)

FWIW was the worst to find out for myself, it really puzzled me a long
time, as non-native english speaker ;)

CU,
M

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Re: What to do about checksecurity

[Steve Greenland]

On 19-Mar-98, 22:03 (CST), Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 18-Mar-98, 23:21 (CST), "Gregory S. Stark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > For NFS and AFS, why not just log a message listing volumes mounted without
> > nosetuid and nodev. They're security issues regardless of what files happen 
> > to
> > exist on them and they should be audited by the server, not by every client
> > that happens to have them mounted. 
> 
> You know, that's the best general solution I've heard yet, and I'm
> embarassed not to have thought of it. I think I'll do something like
> this for the next release of cron.

I've put this into -45, which I'm uploading today. You can get the
old behaviour by editing checksecurity.conf, and uncommenting the
indicated line.

Steve


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Re: policy suggestion (seeking discussion)

[Enrique Zanardi]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 01:23:06PM -0400, Carl Mummert wrote:
> Don't flame me for this if it is obviously wrong.. 
> it doesn't SEEM so to me...
> 
> Question:   when does dpkg write the /var/lib/dpkg/info/*.list ???
> 
> Situation:  Package X has something in the post-inst script which
> the developer knows will create file F, which dpkg will
> not know about (known problem).
> 
> Suggestion: Package X could, if the files already exist at this point,
> include 'cat "F" >> /var/lib/dpkg/info/X.list ' in the
> post-inst list.  This would associate the newly-created file
> with the newly-installed package, and would prevent the
> buildup of cruft which otherwise would develop when package
> X is removed.
> 
> The postinst script is the perfect time to do this, because
> this script knows with 100% certainty which files it creates.
> 
> Example file: /etc/gpm/conf is created by an "echo" command in the
>  post-int of gpm.
> 
> 
> I have tried this by adding (by hand) a new package to (...)/status and
> a corresponding lists file to the info dir.  When I ran dpkg --remove
> on the package, the files listed went away.
> 
> Caveat: I don't fully understand how this fits in with the 'conffiles'
> issue.

I'm not a dpkg expert, but AFAIK modifying directly the dpkg databases (yes,
almost everything under var/lib/dpkg are dpkg databases) is a Wrong Thing (TM)
In the current implementation those databases are ASCII files, but that
may change (and surely _will_ change) in the future, so relying in that
format will cause compatibility problems. The right way to solve that issue 
is by adding an(other) option to dpkg.

Thanks,
--
Enrique Zanardi[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Licensing (OFF-TOPIC)

[Jules Bean]

--On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 1:46 pm -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

>> As an aside, I am beggining to think that we need a better license, from
a
>> legal perspective, because with all the issues of shared libraries,
>> "essential parts", and who knows what else, if someone would really try
to
>> challange the GPL in a court, I don't know if it would stand up.
>> 
>> Shaya
> 
> Very good point!

Indeed, if you think about it, this is all very silly.

It is perfectly legal, apparently, to have a GPLed program use (e.g. shell
out to) a commercial piece of software.  It has to be - to disallow this
would be very stupid indeed.  And indeed, the whole idea of have standard
APIs for program communication (like SQL, although that's a bad example
because there's no real standard for how to actually send the queries) is
that, I, the user, can choose which programs (which RDBMS, for example) to
use.

Now, conceptually, there is no difference between shelling out to a program,
and dynamically linking a library.  The difference is an implementation
detail, not a fundamental one.

The whole thing makes little sense to me.  The LGPL seems a more reasonable
license for a future where software is expected to be more 'component' and
'module' based.

Jules

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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[aqy6633]

> As an aside, I am beggining to think that we need a better license, from a
> legal perspective, because with all the issues of shared libraries,
> "essential parts", and who knows what else, if someone would really try to
> challange the GPL in a court, I don't know if it would stand up.
> 
> Shaya

Very good point!

Me too :)

Alex Y.
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netstsd depends on cpp?

[Nicolás Lichtmaier]

 Nothing shows up with:

grep cpp $(cat /var/lib/dpkg/info/netstd.list) /var/lib/dpkg/info/netstd.*

 Why should netstd depend on cpp?


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Re: bash prompt strings again (was Re: base-files etc.)

[Avery Pennarun]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 12:11:55PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:

> Avery Pennarun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > environment variables, I know.  Maybe the "right thing to do" is modify
> > bash itself to _default_ to the right prompt.  bash$ is just useless,
> > after all.
> 
> Excellent idea.
> 
> Just try to keep the default prompt from getting too long.

It should be the same one as would have been used in /root/.bashrc and
/etc/skel/.bashrc.  I think that's '\h:\w\$ ' but I could be wrong.  (I
don't mind this suggestion, though I would still colourize my own.)

Have fun,

Avery


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policy suggestion (seeking discussion)

[Carl Mummert]

Don't flame me for this if it is obviously wrong.. 
it doesn't SEEM so to me...

Question:   when does dpkg write the /var/lib/dpkg/info/*.list ???

Situation:  Package X has something in the post-inst script which
the developer knows will create file F, which dpkg will
not know about (known problem).

Suggestion: Package X could, if the files already exist at this point,
include 'cat "F" >> /var/lib/dpkg/info/X.list ' in the
post-inst list.  This would associate the newly-created file
with the newly-installed package, and would prevent the
buildup of cruft which otherwise would develop when package
X is removed.

The postinst script is the perfect time to do this, because
this script knows with 100% certainty which files it creates.

Example file: /etc/gpm/conf is created by an "echo" command in the
 post-int of gpm.


I have tried this by adding (by hand) a new package to (...)/status and
a corresponding lists file to the info dir.  When I ran dpkg --remove
on the package, the files listed went away.

Caveat: I don't fully understand how this fits in with the 'conffiles'
issue.

Carl

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
The sun's not eternal
   That's why there's the blues...
 -- Ginsburg


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Shaya Potter]

At 09:40 26-04-98 -0600, James LewisMoss wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:52:32 +0300 (IDT), Shaya Potter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> >> My main point was this: if the GPL has this clause about the
> >> components of a program being free, what with the large quantity
> >> of programs being Qtized, why haven't we seen any action?
>
> Shaya> Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute
> Shaya> emacs linked or with the ability to link out of the box
> Shaya> against Motif?
>
>Motif (and other 'normally distributed' libraries) on a system are an
>exception to this rule else no glped program could be linked on a
>system that uses it's standard libc (not gpled of course).  Motif is
>considered a standard part of many Unix installations, so linking with
>Motif in that case is perfectly OK. (though of dubious legality on a
>Linux installation actually (since Linux does not distribute Motif as
>a standard part of the OS)).

What defines a standard linux installation.  Each dist. in reality is it's
own OS.  Red Hat ships Motif, would it be legal for them to distribute a
GPL'd program linked with Motif, and not for debian?

Essentially, I think that this part of the GPL is very vauge, and when comes
down to real legal terms is on the shaky side.

As an aside, I am beggining to think that we need a better license, from a
legal perspective, because with all the issues of shared libraries,
"essential parts", and who knows what else, if someone would really try to
challange the GPL in a court, I don't know if it would stand up.

Shaya


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Shaya Potter]

At 09:28 26-04-98 -0400, Avery Pennarun wrote:
>On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 09:06:56AM -0400, Alex Yukhimets wrote:
>
>> Linking with Motif of GPL'd software only allowed on operating systems
>> which get shipped with Motif as an essential part of it (like Solaris).
>> Which means that linking with Motif on Linux is not allowed. (I asked RMS
>> directly about that and received the above response).
>
>Note that the GPL only restricts copying and redistribution.  Once you have
>a legal copy of the source, you can do whatever you want with it "in the
>privacy of your own home."
>
>So you can make yourself an emacs-motif, if you own Motif, but Debian
>couldn't distribute it.  IANAL.
>

Does the FSF distribute a binary version of emacs for suns, linked against
Motif?

Shaya


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Shaya Potter]

At 09:06 26-04-98 -0400, Alex Yukhimets wrote:
>> >My main point was this:  if the GPL has this clause about the
>> >components of a program being free, what with the large quantity of
>> >programs being Qtized, why haven't we seen any action?
>> 
>> Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute emacs linked or
>> with the ability to link out of the box against Motif?
>> 
>> Shaya
>
>Hi.
>
>Linking with Motif of GPL'd software only allowed on operating systems which
>get shipped with Motif as an essential part of it (like Solaris). Which means
>that linking with Motif on Linux is not allowed. (I asked RMS directly 
>about that and received the above response). This leads to some kind of
>discrimination, IMHO, which prefered to be ignored by our DFSG zealots.
>

However, those systems, I believe, don't come with a Motif development
system out of the box (at least on HP-UX, cause a few years ago, I had
problems compiling mosaic, had to install the special Motif tape to each
system, after I installed the development environment).  So it can also be
viewed as, that they include the ability to link with Motif out of their
tarball, but most people can't compile/link the program with Motif out of
the box on their system.

Shaya


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Re: Possible new name for "deity"

[Anthony Fok]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 05:02:14AM -0700, Darren/Torin/Who Ever... wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Anthony Fok, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote:
> >Actually, AFAIK, Mitsubishi stands for "Three Diamonds".  Mitsu is "three"
> >in Japanese, so I guess that means "bishi" is diamond.  :-)
> 
> Yes, it's actually a geometric diamond as opposed to the stone...

Oh yeah, you are right!  :-)  (I almost forgot, even though the Chinese (or
Hanji or Kanji) version means Three Diamond (geometric).  :-)

> >(In Chinese, we call it "San Ling", i.e. Three Diamonds.  I wonder if it is
> >written the same way in both Chinese and Japanese.  :-)
> 
> Other similar examples have been this way, so I suspect this one would
> be as well...

Neat stuff!  You know Japanese also?  :-)  (Of course, sometimes, two same
phrase/word in Chinese and Japanese sometimes mean something totally
different, because the usage has changed over the years or sometimes the
Japanese has adapted the words for other uses, etc.  :-)

Anthony

-- 
Anthony Fok Tung-LingCivil and Environmental Engineering
[EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Alberta, Canada
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Keep smiling!  *^_^*
Come visit Our Lady of Victory Camp -- http://olvc.home.ml.org/
or http://www.ualberta.ca/~foka/OLVC/


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Re: bash prompt strings again (was Re: base-files etc.)

[Raul Miller]

Avery Pennarun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> environment variables, I know.  Maybe the "right thing to do" is modify bash
> itself to _default_ to the right prompt.  bash$ is just useless, after all.

Excellent idea.

Just try to keep the default prompt from getting too long.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You're probably thinking of xemacs.

[Or, as other people have pointed out, emacs for systems where you
don't need a special license to be legally entitled to use motif.]

-- 
Raul


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Raul Miller]

Shaya Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute emacs linked or
> with the ability to link out of the box against Motif?

You're probably thinking of xemacs.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Compatibility question

[krynux]

Thanks a lot, you don't know much this means to me ( one tends to love
with a passion is linux distribution). By the way, thanks for the fast
response.

David



On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 06:14:05PM -0400, krynux wrote:
> > I was wandering, is there a DEC Alpha version of Debian linux or are you
> > planning on doing one ? I know there is a RedHat version, but...
> 
> People are working on an Alpha port of Debian GNU/Linux. The mailing list
> for it is debian-alpha@lists.debian.org .
> 
> I don't know how usable it is yet; for the available packages, see
> http://thor.lib.chalmers.se/~jamest/quinn-diff/index.html .
> 
> HTH,
> Ray
> -- 
> Tevens ben ik van mening dat Nederland overdekt dient te worden.
> 


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[James LewisMoss]

> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:52:32 +0300 (IDT), Shaya Potter <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]> said:

 >> My main point was this: if the GPL has this clause about the
 >> components of a program being free, what with the large quantity
 >> of programs being Qtized, why haven't we seen any action?

 Shaya> Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute
 Shaya> emacs linked or with the ability to link out of the box
 Shaya> against Motif?

Motif (and other 'normally distributed' libraries) on a system are an
exception to this rule else no glped program could be linked on a
system that uses it's standard libc (not gpled of course).  Motif is
considered a standard part of many Unix installations, so linking with
Motif in that case is perfectly OK. (though of dubious legality on a
Linux installation actually (since Linux does not distribute Motif as
a standard part of the OS)).

Qt, however, is _not_ a standard part of any Unix installation (except 
maybe a couple of Linux ones?  SuSE?), so it doesn't fall under the
'normally distributed' clause (quoted below for fun).

--

The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source
code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to
control compilation and installation of the executable.  However, as a
special exception, the source code distributed need not include
anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary
form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the
operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component
itself accompanies the executable.

--

The however part here is the important one.

As to why we haven't seen any action: I'd bet none of the programs
being Qtized are owned by the FSF and the authors haven't been
informed for the programs (or they don't have a problem with it).

Dres
-- 
@James LewisMoss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |  Blessed Be!
@http://www.dimensional.com/~dres   |  Linux is kewl!
@"Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours." Bach


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bash prompt strings again (was Re: base-files etc.)

[Avery Pennarun]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 03:34:01PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Avery Pennarun wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 02:46:58PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:
> > > Ok, trying to be "conservative", I have changed the default prompt for
> > > root from '[EMAIL PROTECTED]:\w\$ ' to '\h:\w\$ ' in base-files_1.9.
> > > 
> > > I would really like to see something like '\h:\w\$ ' (or '\w\$ ' at
> > > least) in /etc/skel/.bashrc. Would it be against policy?
> > 
> > Why not /etc/profile?  Or is that against policy?
> 
> /etc/profile is read by many different shells, almost any of which
> understand bash escapes, while .bash_profile is only read by bash.

Right, but almost every distribution compares $SHELL to /bin/bash.  It's not
great, but it works.  (Actually, [ -n "$BASH_VERSION" ] would be most
reliable.)

Do we have a policy about this?  There is something about not requiring
environment variables, I know.  Maybe the "right thing to do" is modify bash
itself to _default_ to the right prompt.  bash$ is just useless, after all.

Have fun,

Avery


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Re: why not mingetty??

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 12:17:25PM +0200, Rainer Clasen wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> > Is agetty used much for serial? I always use mgetty here, although usually
> > because I want something more exotic like AutoPPP or fax reception.
> 
[...]
> I don't like the idea to switch to a getty without serial support. Maybe
> we'll once enhance our setup to run over a serial line (as it's possible
> with FreeBSD).

There's no reason why agetty should disappear because mingetty
is the default -- you can mix and match as you need. I use mingetty
for virtual consoles (especially on low memory machines) and
mgetty for modems. 


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5
CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome.   http://hamish.home.ml.org


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Re: base-files etc.

[Mark Baker]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 09:30:04AM -0400, Avery Pennarun wrote:

> Incidentally, I've always wondered why there is no /etc/bashrc and
> /etc/bash_profile.  They would be ideal for this.

In the default mode, which files to run at startup is hard-coded into bash,
and doesn't include those.

I always use bash in the POSIX startup mode, where it only executes
/etc/ENV, which then runs any other files necessary, for example mine is:

--
# /etc/ENV: Posix conformant startup script for /bin/sh
#
# A Posix conformant shell will read this file if environment variable ENV
# is set to /etc/ENV.
#
# This currently does almost but not quite like what bash does by
# default - the differences are the reading of root's .bashrc, for
# use with su, and the default bashrc if the user doesn't have one.
#
# Mark Baker - 31 October 1996
#

case "${--}" in *i*)

# Shell is interactive - no scripts used otherwise

# Check if it's a login shell. If so, read /etc/profile,
# then the users .profile

case "${0##*/}" in
-*)
if [ -f "/etc/profile" ]; then
# source /etc/profile
. /etc/profile
fi
if [ -n "${HOME-}" ] && [ -f "$HOME/.profile" ]; then
# source ~/.profile
. "$HOME/.profile"
fi
;;
esac

# For all shells, read the bashrc.

# If it's root, read root's one. On an su, this isn't
# $HOME/.bashrc, but I think it's desirable to use
# root's one anyway, if only to get a different prompt

if [ $(whoami) = "root" ] && [ -f ~root/.bashrc ]; then
. ~root/.bashrc 

# Otherwise, look for a ~/.bashrc

elif [ -n "${HOME-}" ] && [ -f "$HOME/.bashrc" ]; then
. "$HOME/.bashrc"

# If that fails, look for a system default one

elif [ -f "/etc/bashrc" ]; then
. /etc/bashrc
fi
;;
esac
--

To get this to work I had to patch my bash so I could enable this startup
mode without all the other POSIX (mis-)features.


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Re: base-files etc.

[Santiago Vila]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Avery Pennarun wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 02:46:58PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:
> > Ok, trying to be "conservative", I have changed the default prompt for
> > root from '[EMAIL PROTECTED]:\w\$ ' to '\h:\w\$ ' in base-files_1.9.
> > 
> > I would really like to see something like '\h:\w\$ ' (or '\w\$ ' at
> > least) in /etc/skel/.bashrc. Would it be against policy?
> 
> Why not /etc/profile?  Or is that against policy?

/etc/profile is read by many different shells, almost any of which
understand bash escapes, while .bash_profile is only read by bash.

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Re: base-files etc.

[Avery Pennarun]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 02:46:58PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:

> Ok, trying to be "conservative", I have changed the default prompt for
> root from '[EMAIL PROTECTED]:\w\$ ' to '\h:\w\$ ' in base-files_1.9.
> 
> I would really like to see something like '\h:\w\$ ' (or '\w\$ ' at
> least) in /etc/skel/.bashrc. Would it be against policy?
> 
> Thanks.

Why not /etc/profile?  Or is that against policy?

Incidentally, I've always wondered why there is no /etc/bashrc and
/etc/bash_profile.  They would be ideal for this.

Have fun,

Avery


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Avery Pennarun]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 09:06:56AM -0400, Alex Yukhimets wrote:

> Linking with Motif of GPL'd software only allowed on operating systems
> which get shipped with Motif as an essential part of it (like Solaris).
> Which means that linking with Motif on Linux is not allowed. (I asked RMS
> directly about that and received the above response).

Note that the GPL only restricts copying and redistribution.  Once you have
a legal copy of the source, you can do whatever you want with it "in the
privacy of your own home."

So you can make yourself an emacs-motif, if you own Motif, but Debian
couldn't distribute it.  IANAL.

Have fun,

Avery


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Re: What to do with /bin/perl symlink?

[Enrique Zanardi]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 02:50:49PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Enrique Zanardi wrote:
> 
> > Currently the base system comes with that symlink, but I plan to remove
> > it for the next boot-floppies release. Objections?
> 
> None. Just a question: Are there more files (still) in the
> base system but not in any package?

Files from packages not in the base system: 
- /usr/bin/ftp and /usr/bin/telnet (from netstd, they should be moved to
  netbase)
- /usr/lib/perl5/Net/DirHandle.pm (from perl, it should be moved to
  perl-base)

Data files:
- /var/lib/dpkg/status and /var/lib/dpkg/available (dpkg won't run
  without those).

Files needed by the install process, and removed after the first root 
session (after dselect first run):
- /sbin/unconfigured.sh
- various files under /root  

A lot of device files under /dev .

And of course all the files created by the packages postinst scripts.

Thanks,
--
Enrique Zanardi[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[aqy6633]

> >My main point was this:  if the GPL has this clause about the
> >components of a program being free, what with the large quantity of
> >programs being Qtized, why haven't we seen any action?
> 
> Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute emacs linked or
> with the ability to link out of the box against Motif?
> 
> Shaya

Hi.

Linking with Motif of GPL'd software only allowed on operating systems which
get shipped with Motif as an essential part of it (like Solaris). Which means
that linking with Motif on Linux is not allowed. (I asked RMS directly 
about that and received the above response). This leads to some kind of
discrimination, IMHO, which prefered to be ignored by our DFSG zealots.

Thanks.

Alex Y.
-- 
   _ 
 _( )_
( (o___   +---+
 |  _ 7   |Alexander Yukhimets|
  \(")|   http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/  |
  / \ \   +---+


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Re: What to do with /bin/perl symlink?

[Santiago Vila]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Enrique Zanardi wrote:

> Currently the base system comes with that symlink, but I plan to remove
> it for the next boot-floppies release. Objections?

None. Just a question: Are there more files (still) in the
base system but not in any package?

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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Avery Pennarun]

On Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 09:52:32AM +0300, Shaya Potter wrote:

> Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute emacs linked or
> with the ability to link out of the box against Motif?

"linked or with the ability to be linked" -- perhaps that's the critical
difference.

I don't think FSF distributes binaries of emacs (do they?).  They only
release the source.  Source is just data, and whether you need Motif to
compile it into binary or not is your own problem.

This is why I don't think the author of ncftp had any real legal problems
allowing ncftp to be linked with readline (or even perhaps requiring it; I
don't remember).  If you don't distribute binaries of ncftp, you haven't
used readline, and therefore you haven't upset the readline license.

Similarly, if you don't distribute binaries of emacs-Motif or the
(theoretical) kemacs, you haven't violated the emacs license.

This puts Debian in a rather awkward position, since that's exactly what we
want to do: distribute binaries of these programs.

I still question anyway whether linking with a shared library makes a
program a "derived work" but I don't feel like watching that argument again.

Have fun,

Avery


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base-files etc.

[Santiago Vila]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Ok, trying to be "conservative", I have changed the default prompt for
root from '[EMAIL PROTECTED]:\w\$ ' to '\h:\w\$ ' in base-files_1.9.

I would really like to see something like '\h:\w\$ ' (or '\w\$ ' at
least) in /etc/skel/.bashrc. Would it be against policy?

Thanks.

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What to do with /bin/perl symlink?

[Enrique Zanardi]

IIRC, some time ago it was decided that we should remove the /bin/perl ->
/usr/bin/perl symlink. Am I wrong? 

The only reference I found in our policy manual is:

"...
3.3.4 Scripts 

All command scripts, including the package maintainer scripts inside
the package and used by dpkg, should have a #! line naming
the shell to be used to interpret them.

In the case of Perl scripts this should be #!/usr/bin/perl.
..."

Currently the base system comes with that symlink, but I plan to remove
it for the next boot-floppies release. Objections?

Thanks,
--
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Re: Possible new name for "deity"

[Darren/Torin/Who Ever...]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Anthony Fok, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote:
>Actually, AFAIK, Mitsubishi stands for "Three Diamonds".  Mitsu is "three"
>in Japanese, so I guess that means "bishi" is diamond.  :-)

Yes, it's actually a geometric diamond as opposed to the stone...

>(In Chinese, we call it "San Ling", i.e. Three Diamonds.  I wonder if it is
>written the same way in both Chinese and Japanese.  :-)

Other similar examples have been this way, so I suspect this one would
be as well...

Darren
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Re: Compatibility question

[jdassen]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 06:14:05PM -0400, krynux wrote:
> I was wandering, is there a DEC Alpha version of Debian linux or are you
> planning on doing one ? I know there is a RedHat version, but...

People are working on an Alpha port of Debian GNU/Linux. The mailing list
for it is debian-alpha@lists.debian.org .

I don't know how usable it is yet; for the available packages, see
http://thor.lib.chalmers.se/~jamest/quinn-diff/index.html .

HTH,
Ray
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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

[Shaya Potter]

David Welton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:49:10PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
>> David Welton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > So why haven't we seen this enforced, or has it happend but quietly?
>> > I do note that there is no kemacs.., but there are things like
>> > krpm.. hrm.. I'd have to look at the list, but... one would think that
>> > at least RMS would enforce things under the FSF's protection.  So are
>> > we missing something?
>> 
>> If you'd manage to read the copyright on rpm, you'd see:
>> 
>> (1) It's written by redhat, not fsf,
>
>I know, it was just an example.
>
>> (2) It's available both under GPL and LGPL.
>
>Bad example, apparently.  There are plenty of others, I would assume.
>Just popped into my head on the way out the door..
>
>I guess I have learned my lesson about doing that:-(
>
>My main point was this:  if the GPL has this clause about the
>components of a program being free, what with the large quantity of
>programs being Qtized, why haven't we seen any action?

Probably because it's allowed, doesn't the FSF distribute emacs linked or
with the ability to link out of the box against Motif?

Shaya


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Re: why not mingetty??

[Rainer Clasen]

Hallo erstmal!
Hi!

Hamish Moffatt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Is agetty used much for serial? I always use mgetty here, although usually
> because I want something more exotic like AutoPPP or fax reception.

I use it for a null-modem link to another machine. In combination with
putting lilo on the same link (and maybe with 2.1.x's serial console
feature) this is a REALLY nice way to save a monitor, graphics card,
keyboard and to keep a way to connect to the box if the network is hosed.

I don't like the idea to switch to a getty without serial support. Maybe
we'll once enhance our setup to run over a serial line (as it's possible
with FreeBSD).


Regards
 Rainer

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Re: Intent to package: mlddc

[Petra]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> 
> > 
> > If memory servers, someone took the package from John but I can't recall who
> > it was.
> > 
> [snip]
> 
> thanks for jumping to my rescue guys, I just about had a package built ;).
> Oh well. I'll have to go find something else to do... It's pretty hard,
> every time I think of something it's already there ;).

Try looking at the Work Needed/Persective Packages list (WNPP) it is a
list of packages needing a new maintainer, and/or things that need to be
packaged, also try looking at the SAL websites for software that you use,
that may not be packaged. 

>   Lemme go see if debian has "lightbar" on its list If not that
> will be my first try... ( For those of you who don't know, it makes WWIV
> style login screens possible ... )

Uhm, hate to tell you, but I think someone is working on that, I seem to
recall the name.

- -K


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Re: weird utmp/perl problem

[Kai Henningsen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guy Maor)  wrote on 25.04.98 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Roderick Schertler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > It's supposed to open /dev/tty instead of using stdin.  This is the way
> > it works on all the systems I could get people to check for me, which
> > are Linux with libc5, AIX 4.2, Solaris 2.4, Solaris 2.5, DG/UX 4.11 and
> > FreeBSD 2.2.2-R.
>
> I don't understand how this would work.  How do you get the canonical
> ttyname from /dev/tty ?
>
> $ tty < /dev/tty
> /dev/tty

Ugh. That's not supposed to happen, I believe. Opening /dev/tty ought to  
give a fd that stat()s like one to the current controlling terminal, _not_  
to /dev/tty. Well, at least that's the rdev it should have.

Kernel bug?

MfG Kai


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Adding files to dpkg AND cruft (was Re: consistency check)

[Carl Mummert]

Fabien Ninoles wrote:
> That's the reason why I would like to see a
> 
> dpkg --{remove,add}-files [--package ] 
> 
> option to dpkg. I think it's simple to implement  to the package .list file> and can ease the task for securing local files
>  from dpkg in addition
> to help checking the system.

Before I being... don't trust a word I say. Any command listed below may
cause strange things to happen. Use at your own risk.

1) Try :

  echo "filename" >> /var/lib/dpkg/info/package_name.list

to add filename to a package_name

2) Try adding something like this to /var/lib/dpkg/status :

 Package: local-files
 Status: install ok installed
 Priority: required
 Section: base
 Version: 1.0-0.0

and adding /var/lib/dpkg/info/local-files.list w/ filenames.  Note that it
is required/base so that you won't accidentally remove it :-)  THe version
number is required by dpkg.

I have verifed that I can add the above to the status file, and 

  rn120056 /var/lib/dpkg # dpkg --list local-files ; echo
  Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge
  |Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed
  |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err:uppercase=bad)
  ||/ NameVersionDescription
  +++-===-==-== ...
  ii  local-files 1.0-0.0
  
  rn120056 /var/lib/dpkg #

And when I add

  /System.map

to /var/lib/dpkg/local-files.list, cruft no longer complains about it.

3) Of course, you can also add things to 

  /etc/cruft/explain

This directory holds shell scripts which oupt filenames.  Any filenames
so listed will not be listed as unaccounted-for inthe cruft output.

For example, /etc/cruft/explain/local-files.sh

  #!/bin/bash
  find /var/www
  find /home
  find /usr/local

chmod the file to 755 and cruft will 'ignore' the dirs listed 

See my other message also...

Carl
-- 
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   That's why there's the blues...
 -- Ginsburg


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xfsft deb package

[Stephen Carpenter]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

A few days ago (maybe a week or so? I am too lazy to look back and
check...and it doesn't REALLY matter)
I mentioned an interest in xfstt which is listed as needing
a new maintainer and got no reply herebut I was told
in a separate discussion (which was the same one which
prompted me to post here) I was told that it already has a new
maintainer.
Then I recived an anynomous message from someone who had read the thread.
(I havn't gotten an anonymous message since annon.pennet.fi shut down)
Saying that I should look into xfsft ..which is another (suposedly better)
True Type font server for X.
(BTW a number of days ago I expressed intrest in this on debian-mentors
about this but recived no response...nor any other mail from that
list which I am almost sure I subscribed to...is that adead list?)
I have thought about it a bit more and I woul dlike to give this a try.
has anyone else looked into this (or possibly already doing this?
it is not listed as being worked on...)
Unfortunatly this package is a little weird in one way...
the distribution only contains some of the source code...
the rest is from other packages (it si distributed as a patch)
has anyone run into this situation before?
This will require me to get the "Freetype" source code and 
the X11 source code (it uses the X11 font server source)
how should this be handled (esp when it comes to making the
source ditribution with the tar.gz and the diffs and all)
- -Steve


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Re: Intent to package: mlddc

[Anthony Fok]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 01:10:46AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> thanks for jumping to my rescue guys, I just about had a package built ;).
> Oh well. I'll have to go find something else to do... It's pretty hard,
> every time I think of something it's already there ;).

No, it isn't that hard.  There are *lots* of packages for you to choose
from.  There are quite a few orphaned Debian packages that you could adopt. 
Read the WNPP, the weekly Work-Needing Package Posting, and I'm sure you
could find something to work on.  :-)  You could also try to help fix
the bugs in various Debian packages, especially the important ones that are
holding up the Debian 2.0 release.  ;-)

Cheers,

Anthony

-- 
Anthony Fok Tung-LingCivil and Environmental Engineering
[EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Alberta, Canada
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Keep smiling!  *^_^*
Come visit Our Lady of Victory Camp -- http://olvc.home.ml.org/
or http://www.ualberta.ca/~foka/OLVC/


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Re: consistency check

[Fabien Ninoles]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 06:11:25PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
[...]
> 
> In particular, it checks that all the files listed as alternatives, as
> diversions and in the dpkg database itself are all present and accounted
> for, and produces a list of things that weren't listed but are still on
> your system, and things that were listed, but aren't. It also takes into
> account symlinks (if you've got a symlink from /usr/tmp to /var/tmp, it'll
> complain if /var/tmp doesn't exist, for example), user home directories
> (it'll make sure that everything in /home/aj is owned by aj, for example),
> and a couple of other things.
> 
> It's still a work in progress -- in particular there are bunches of files
> that are created when packages are installed but dpkg is never told about
> (/etc/passwd is one example), which cruft doesn't cope with too well at the
> moment -- but it's a start, at least.
> 

That's the reason why I would like to see a

dpkg --{remove,add}-files [--package ] 

option to dpkg. I think it's simple to implement  and can ease the task for securing local files
 from dpkg in addition
to help checking the system.

> 
> -- 
> Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> I don't speak for anyone save myself. PGP encrypted mail preferred.
> 
>   ``It's not a vision, or a fear. It's just a thought.''



-- 

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E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
WebPage:  http://www.callisto.si.usherb.ca/~94246757
WorkStation [available when connected!]: http://nightbird.tzone.org/
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Re: cfdisk and multiple active partitions

[Nicolás Lichtmaier]

> >  Is it legal to have multiple partitions marked as active (at work a machine
> > wouldn't boot untill I removed one of those marks)?
> >  If it isn't, a bug should be filed against cfdisk.
> Every machine I've seen won't boot with two partitions active. It is
> pretty meaningless.

  So cfdisk shouldn't allow this.


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Re: weird utmp/perl problem

[Mark W. Eichin]

*traditionally*, you openned /dev/tty, did an fstat(), and the kernel
filled in the real major/minor numbers for the tty you had; then you
scanned /dev/ (or wherever depending on how creative your system was)
and stat'ed things until you got a matching major/minor device
number.  (ttyname did all this; you only generally noticed when
debugging something with a syscall tracer...)


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Re: why not mingetty??

[Avery Pennarun]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:

> > That's not true, it is -- getty requires a speed, even for a virtual
> > terminate, while mingetty doesn't support that.
> 
> Does this mean that mingetty won't ignore this argument?  That
> should be fixed, in my opinion.

It should ignore arguments?  That's not exactly Principle-of-least-surprise
compliant :)

getty_ps uses arbitrarily different options, as does mgetty.  There's not
much point in making mingetty try to be the same as agetty if the others
aren't.  Besides, virtual terminals don't need baud rates.

Plus, adding support for this means adding more useless code to mingetty,
which defeats its purpose.

> > As to the numbers, I just started up a getty on my box here:
> > 
> > yodeller# ps aux | grep getty
> > root   384  0.0  0.0   720 0   2 SW  Feb  9   0:00 (mingetty)
> > root   401  0.0  0.0   720 0   1 SW  Feb  9   0:00 (mingetty)
> > root 10361  0.5  1.4   868   460   3 S17:07   0:00 /sbin/getty 
> > 38400 tty
> 
> This is not a completely reasonable comparison (though it does show
> 0:00 time used by each getty, which is perhaps significant). 

It's not very useful.  Virtual size is pretty pointless when comparing
memory usage -- I've had programs that used "virtually" hundreds of megs
without digging into swap.  It's just that they allocated it without using
it, or mmapped large files.  Most shared libraries cause arbitrarily bloated
virtual memory.

RSS is the only reasonable value for comparison, and since your quoted
getties are swapped out to different degrees, we can't get an accurate one.

On my system:

root  15982  0.4  0.8   736   344   7 S 21:47   0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty7 
root  15983  0.4  1.1   860   456   2 S 21:47   0:00 /sbin/getty 9600 tty2

I just disabled my swap space and freshly restarted these tasks.  RSS
difference is 456 - 344 = 112k of savings.  Considering my ever-increasing
impression that "shared" pages don't actually work for separately-started
copies of the same binary, and the simple truth that data pages can't be
shared between these, I'd say a good part of that 112k is then multiplied by
the number of getties you run.

And as for speed... well, they both use 0:00 seconds of CPU time, but agetty
takes a full second longer to start.  (This is almost certainly a DTR-drop
to make modems happy; since we don't deal with modems, we don't have the
drop or the wait.  It feels faster, and that's a big psychological benefit.)

> (b) On the other hand, in my informal testing, I couldn't get mingetty
> to run -- apparently, it can't do TIOCSCTTY on my system, so it bails
> out.

Hmm.  Works for me.  Of course, you do have to run it from init.  TIOCSCTTY
is one of the pickiest bloody system calls I've ever seen.

> (d) Technically, you also need to compare console handling to console
> handling, not console handling to serial handling.

Incidentally, agetty's serial handling is completely atrocious anyway.  For
serial terminals, you should seriously use getty_ps.  For modems, use
mgetty.  For consoles, use mingetty.  See, agetty is obsolete :)

Seriously, though, the very early getties (of which agetty is one, and
getty_ps is another) tried to be an all-in-one completely scriptable
terminal handler.  This approach failed dismally with modems, and wasn't
necessary for terminals.  Have you ever tried to make agetty answer a phone
at arbitrary baud rates with a 2400 baud modem?  Yes, it can be done, I did
it.  Have you ever tried to do it reliably?  If you did that, you have me
beat.

If we added a tiny enhancement to mingetty to let it set the baud rate and
TERM variable, then it would be completely capable of handling serial
terminals as well as the VTs.  Then you just need mingetty/mgetty for
complete flexibility.  Meanwhile, people with serial terminals can just use
agetty for those.  That's not very hard.

The main reason mingetty is smaller than agetty is the absence of the
scripting junk, I think.

> Finally, note that if we get too fancy it will be tough for people who
> need to use multiple gettys on the same system (but maybe that's only
> important for testing purposes).

I don't think there's a need for alternatives and all that.  Is there? 
Perhaps the sysvinit (or some other) install script could just comb through
/etc/inittab and offer to replace the getty entries it recognizes with
mingetty lines.

Have fun,

Avery


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Re: why not mingetty??

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 01:40:32AM -0400, Shaleh wrote:
> > > The inittab setup is not different.  However, the only way to switch
> > 
> > That's not true, it is -- getty requires a speed, even for a virtual
> > terminate, while mingetty doesn't support that.
> 
> Does this mean that mingetty won't ignore this argument?  That
> should be fixed, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, no it doesn't ignore the speed, I just tried it. 

Apr 26 11:03:13 silly /sbin/mingetty[13276]: /dev/38400: No such file or 
directory

However this could easily be fixed.

> This is not a completely reasonable comparison (though it does show
> 0:00 time used by each getty, which is perhaps significant). 

I've tried to start them at the same time here:

/etc$ ps -aux | grep getty
root 13240  0.1  0.9   804   284   6 S 10:59   0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty6
root 13241  0.0  0.9   812   296   7 S 10:59   0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 t
root 13245  0.0  0.9   908   308   4 S 11:00   0:00 grep getty
root 28139  0.0  0.8   804   272   5 SApr 24   0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty5
root 28176  0.0  1.3   872   420  ?  SApr 24   0:00 /sbin/mgetty ttyS2

> Finally, note that if we get too fancy it will be tough for people who
> need to use multiple gettys on the same system (but maybe that's only
> important for testing purposes).

Is agetty used much for serial? I always use mgetty here, although usually
because I want something more exotic like AutoPPP or fax reception.


Hamish
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Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5
CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome.   http://hamish.home.ml.org


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Re: Only m68k and i386 in hamm?

[Martin Schulze]

On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 11:03:10AM -0700, Guy Maor wrote:
> Is that correct?  I ask because dinstall currently installs packages
> into hamm and slink by installing it into the former and symlinking it
> to the later.  This causes unnecessary mirror traffic for those archs
> that will only be released with 2.1 because I must later move binary-*
> for those to slink.

Speaking for binary-powerpc there will not be 2.0.  I hope we'll
be ready for 2.1.  I wonder if it would be useful to remove
binary-powerpc from hamm completely and only work on slink.

As far as I can see we only have disadvantages supporting
hamm-powerpc.  (no regular uploads, extra handling of security
fixes to non-supported versions, frozen of _really unstable_
binary set etc.)

Regards,

Joey

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 /  No question is too silly to ask, /
/   but, of course, some are too silly to answer.  -- perl book /


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installation quirks of tetex

[drow]

In my install this afternoon (up-to-date mirror) I saw:

Setting up tetex-bin (0.9-4) ...
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/xdvi/XDvi: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/xdvi/XDvi not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/tex/generic/config/language.dat: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/tex/generic/config/language.dat 
not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/xdvi/XDvi: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/xdvi/XDvi not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/tex/generic/config/language.dat: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/tex/generic/config/language.dat 
not a file.
texhash: Updating /var/lib/texmf/ls-R...
texhash: Updating /var/spool/texmf/ls-R...
texhash: Done.
Running initex. This may take some time. ...
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/xdvi/XDvi: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/xdvi/XDvi not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps not a file.
cp: /usr/lib/texmf/tex/generic/config/language.dat: No such file or directory
/usr/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd: /usr/lib/texmf/tex/generic/config/language.dat 
not a file.

Looks almost as if it's trying to depend on something it doesn't have a 
Depends: for...



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Re: http://www.debian.org/security/

[Herbert Xu]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote:
> On bugtraq recently itr was reported there were a number of bugs with
> the BSD line printer daemon... are these being looked into I understand
> redhat have already patched this. Also there doesn't appear to be any security
> information for either overdrop or nestea - new bugs both afflicting linux.

netsea has been fixed in 2.0.33-7.  overdrop only fills up your syslog file
which can be done anyway (say via ICMP redirects).

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Email:  Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
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Re: weird utmp/perl problem

[Roderick Schertler]

On 25 Apr 1998 11:47:34 -0700, Guy Maor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 
> I don't understand how this would work.  How do you get the canonical
> ttyname from /dev/tty ?

Sorry, you're right of course, that didn't make sense.

I've looked at the way libc5's getlogin() works and it uses the first of
stdin, stdout and stderr which is hooked up to a tty.  If none of them
is then it returns NULL.  libc6 only checks stdin.

dgux (the only other OS I have easy access to) works even if none of
those is hooked up to a tty (or if they're hooked up to a different
tty), and it still correctly detects if you don't have a utmp slot.  (I
tested this by using screen to log a tty in and out.)  I don't know how
it's doing that.  The equivalent of lsof shows the process doesn't have
any stray fds open on they tty.  There's no local equivalent of strace
unfortunately.

-- 
Roderick Schertler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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