Re: Accepted pointless 0.3-3 (i386 source)

[Adam Heath]

On Mon, 19 May 2003, Brian Nelson wrote:

> reopen 193287
> reopen 193286
> thanks
>
> Marco Presi (Zufus) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Format: 1.7
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:30:39 +0200
> > Source: pointless
> > Binary: pointless
> > Architecture: source i386
> > Version: 0.3-3
> > Distribution: unstable
> > Urgency: low
> > Maintainer: Marco Presi (Zufus) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Changed-By: Marco Presi (Zufus) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Description:
> >  pointless  - A presentation tool based on OpenGL
> > Closes: 193286 193287
> > Changes:
> >  pointless (0.3-3) unstable; urgency=low
> >  .
> >* Closes: #193287
> >* Closes: #193286
>
> Uhhh, nope, sorry.  Close them correctly or don't close them at all.

Note, that a new upload, that correctly closes the bugs, will be incorrect as
well.

The reason for that is the new upload actually doesn't contain the changes
that close the bug, so shouldn't be used to close them.

At this point, sending an explanation to ###-done, with the reason, is the
correct way to go about it.

Re: Daft Internet Stuff [Re: Returning from "vacation". (MIA?)]

[Matt Ryan]

Emile van Bergen wrote:
> However, I fail to understand why you want people to refrain from
> bringing the netiquette under the attention of the people they are
> receiving email from.

Never said they should refrain. I do think that it's a waste of time though.

> IOW, if everybody just tries to accomodate some reasonable wishes as
> stated by the other party as far as is possible without effort (and
> including a text/plain part is no effort, not forwarding virus hoaxes is
> no effort, but proving to a robot that you are not *is*), there is no
> need to drop any netiquette rules.

You don't need to drop any rules that you are happy with and comply with
yourself. Just don't expect anyone else to do so.

> In short, I still fail to see your point.

I don't like school boy rules and I thought I'd tell everyone. The
netiquette stuff (and others) are a pretty exclusive policy as there are
such a myriad of rules that can be broken that its use is more to make the
other party look stupid compared to the technical knowledge of their
accuser.


Matt.

Re: Firebird 0.6

[Nikolai Prokoschenko]

Miles Bader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I've uploaded mozilla-firebird_0.6-1 to my personal apt
>> repository at http://people.debian.org/~eric/debian/.
MB> Looks good, but why the long binary name?
MB> Wouldn't just `firebird' be nicer?

Because it's name is Mozilla Firebird (tm) :) 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ apt-cache search firebird
firebird-c32-server - FireBird Classic w/ 32bit I/O - RDBMS based on InterBase 
6.0 code
firebird-c64-server - FireBird Classic w/ 64bit I/O - RDBMS based on InterBase 
6.0 code
firebird-dev - Development files for FireBird - RDBMS based on InterBase 6.0 
code
firebird-examples - Examples for FireBird - RDBMS based on InterBase 6.0 code
firebird-s32-server - FireBird Super w/ 32bit I/O - RDBMS based on InterBase 
6.0 code
firebird-s64-server - FireBird Super w/ 64bit I/O - RDBMS based on InterBase 
6.0 code
firebird-server-common - Common server files of FireBird-RDBMS based on 
InterBase 6.0 code
firebird-utils - Utilities for FireBird - RDBMS based on InterBase 6.0 code
libfirebird-c32 - Library files for FireBird Classic w/ 32bit I/O, InterBase 
compat
libfirebird-c64 - Library files for FireBird Classic w/ 64bit I/O, InterBase 
compat
libfirebird-s32 - Library files for FireBird Super w/ 32bit I/O, InterBase 
compat
libfirebird-s64 - Library files for FireBird Super w/ 64bit I/O, InterBase 
compat
php4-interbase - InterBase (FireBird) module for PHP4
python-kinterbasdb - InterBase/Firebird support for Python
python2.1-kinterbasdb - InterBase/Firebird support for Python
python2.2-kinterbasdb - InterBase/Firebird support for Python
mozilla-firebird - a light-weight browser based on Mozilla

-- 
Nikolai Prokoschenko 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: donations wishlist?

[Martin Schulze]

Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> I sent something like this to [EMAIL PROTECTED], since he's supposed to
> be our donations coordinator (at least, that's what I read at
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2002/debian-devel-announce-200207/msg1.html),
> but haven't heard from him in a week. Not that I think he's ignoring me,
> but this could be discussed here too.
> 
> At http://www.freebsd.org/donations/wantlist.html, the FreeBSD
> developers have a list of computer-related stuff they could use to
> improve their work on the FreeBSD operating system. I think this is a

In general, I guess, this is a good idea.  However, I see that the
FreeBSD list is a bit cluttered with "private" requests that don't
seem to ensure me that the project will generally benefit from it as
well.  In case the above is not understandable, I believe, that
requests like 2x256DIMMs for home machines are not the proper type of
requests.

However, Debian could indeed use quite some help through donations but
we don't propagate our needs.

For example, there is no powerpc machine with chroot access since the
hard disk in voltaire isn't large enough.  Also voltaire is the only
PowerPC machine, and if it fails we're doomed.  A second PowerPC
machine with a large disk could probably be helpful.

Also there are no public accessible mips and mipsel machines at the
moment, even though this is worked on.

The sh3/4/eb port is stalled.  Once it is restarted some network
connected machines would be helpful.

For the Hurd there are also no public accessible machines.  However, I
heard that the Hurd is not yet stable enough to provide a network
connected self-hosting machine.

I could imagine that some people who spend time on improving the
debian-installer could use some non-ia32 machines as well, but I don't
really know.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
not tried it.  -- Donald E. Knuth

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.

Re: security in testing

[Martin Schulze]

Mike Fedyk wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 09:24:51PM -0400, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> > already fixed there.  They should go into a security update repository, just
> > as is done for stable, but not on security.debian.org.
> 
> Why not? It's already there.
> 
> #Security   
> deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free 
> deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free 

This is a remeniscent (sp?) from the time woody testing and *frozen* 
(frozen is a near stable state with little fluctuation).  It is not
supported currently.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
not tried it.  -- Donald E. Knuth

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.

Re: DebConf 3 for New Maintainers

[Tollef Fog Heen]

* Gunnar Wolf 

| Tollef Fog Heen dijo [Sun, May 18, 2003 at 04:21:15PM +0200]:
| > | Side question: will there be a few machines for people who can't bring a
| > | laptop ?
| > 
| > Hopefully, yes, but if you can bring a laptop: do it. :)
| 
| Tollef, I might be able to bring an extra laptop with me, as I am sure
| someone will find use for it. But, is there a need for it? (specially
| because I understand most international customs departments allow you to
| travel with one computer for personal use, and I would be playing with
| my luck here ;-) )

I'm not sure, that depends a lot on how many show up without a laptop
or some other computer.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  

Re: Firebird 0.6

[Marcelo E. Magallon]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:31:41PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:

 > Looks good, but why the long binary name?  Wouldn't just `firebird'
 > be nicer?

 $ apt-cache search firebird

 Read mozillazine.org for the gossip around that :-)

-- 
Marcelo

i18n of e2fsprogs (was Re: Do not touch l10n files)

[Denis Barbier]

On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 10:38:47AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 06:55:37PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> > Highly technical packages like zebra, netfilter-related stuff and
> > linux-atm are most likely to be used by people who know English. Not
> > speaking English will make running routers and/or internet security
> > systems almost impossible anyway.
> 
> I've done most of the work to internationalize e2fsprogs (at least as
> far as gettext is concerned; I haven't done the framework to
> internationalize man pages yet), and while it was done mostly for my
> own edification, to learn about gettext, I have had some concerns
> about whether or not Internationalization is actually a *good* thing.

Excellent.

> The main problem here is support.  If uses e2fsck with NLS support
> enabled, and with a non-US locale, the messages will come out in their
> native language.  Which is all very well-and-good until they run into
> problems and they start asking me for help.  If it's in some language
> I don't speak, such as Swahili, I'm going to be very hard pressed to
> actually help them.
[...]

Upstream authors decide which strings get translated, localizing
everything may be suboptimal.  So if you have good reasons not to
localize some critical error messages, this is fine.
You could begin with option summaries (displayed by -h flag), then
localize informations about progress status, and deal with error
messages later.

> I suppose that I could try to look at the Swahili's .po file, and try
> to match the output and turn it back into English, but that will be
> very, very tedious, and so I won't be able to help as many people when
> they give me their sad stories of years of research being lost.
[...]

This is hazardous; there are several problems, like encoding issues
(you have to know the displayed message encoding, which may be different
from the one in this .po file) and messages containing % escapes.

L10ned messages are fine when users are asking questions to their
local support ML, but they have to send English messages when talking
to upstreams.

Denis

alioth.debian.org down

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

Alioth seems to be down, pings seems to stop at gatekeeper.terena.nl ...

Was this expected?

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  --  Master in Computer Science @ Uni. Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it}  -  http://www.bononia.it/zack/
"  I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not
sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!  " -- G.Romney


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Re: security in testing

[Anthony Towns]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:57:13AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Mike Fedyk wrote:
> > On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 09:24:51PM -0400, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> > > already fixed there.  They should go into a security update repository, 
> > > just
> > > as is done for stable, but not on security.debian.org.
> > Why not? It's already there.
> > #Security   
> > deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free
> >  
> > deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free 
> This is a remeniscent (sp?) 

"remnant", probably. "reminiscent of" means "similar to".

> from the time woody testing and *frozen* 
> (frozen is a near stable state with little fluctuation).  It is not
> supported currently.

That misses the point, I think: Matt was saying "it should go into a
security update repository, just not on security.debian.org", and Mike
was asking "why not?". "We don't currently do it" isn't an answer to
that question.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

  ``Dear Anthony Towns: [...] Congratulations -- 
you are now certified as a Red Hat Certified Engineer!''


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Re: Daft Internet Stuff [Re: Returning from "vacation". (MIA?)]

[Paul Slootman]

On Mon 19 May 2003, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 10:17:40PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > (I'd quote a proverb about how small things lead to big things, but I
> > can't currently think of any of those in English. :)
> 
> "Look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves."

As in "penny wise, pound foolish" ? :-)

(I love proverbs, there's one to prove anything.)


Paul Slootman

Re: donations wishlist?

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:51:05AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > I sent something like this to [EMAIL PROTECTED], since he's supposed to
> > be our donations coordinator (at least, that's what I read at
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2002/debian-devel-announce-200207/msg1.html),
> > but haven't heard from him in a week. Not that I think he's ignoring me,
> > but this could be discussed here too.
> > 
> > At http://www.freebsd.org/donations/wantlist.html, the FreeBSD
> > developers have a list of computer-related stuff they could use to
> > improve their work on the FreeBSD operating system. I think this is a
> 
> In general, I guess, this is a good idea.  However, I see that the
> FreeBSD list is a bit cluttered with "private" requests that don't
> seem to ensure me that the project will generally benefit from it as
> well.  In case the above is not understandable, I believe, that
> requests like 2x256DIMMs for home machines are not the proper type of
> requests.

That is correct; however, I'm sure potential donators are smart enough
to see that too, and not donate such things. Which is the beaty of such
a list.

[...]
> I could imagine that some people who spend time on improving the
> debian-installer could use some non-ia32 machines as well, but I don't
> really know.

Heh.


I could use some non-mac m68k boxes to do exactly that :-)


-- 
Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org
Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org

"An expert can usually spot the difference between a fake charge and a
full one, but there are plenty of dead experts." 
  -- National Geographic Channel, in a documentary about large African beasts.


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Re: Do not touch l10n files (was Re: DDTP issue)

[Denis Barbier]

On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 07:21:51AM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> On Sun, 18 May 2003, Denis Barbier wrote:
> 
> > [All Cc's removed]
> >
> > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 07:54:55AM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> > [...]
> > > I don't believe that there is not an estestic layout that can satisfy
> > > all the languages we have in Debian.
> >
> > What is the rationale for having a single layout for all languages?
> 
> since we are talking about estetic,

IMO it is more a readability issue.  We French speaking people are not
used to these very long sentences, so we find them harder to parse.

Here is another example taken from debconf templates, see:
  
http://ftp-master.debian.org/~barbier/l10n/material/templates/unstable/main/w/wdm/wdm_1.22.1-2_debian_wdm.templates.fr.gz
In French, parenthesis are put around parts of sentences, not whole sentences.
So the last French paragraph has to be rewritten to remove these parenthesis.
I do not know whether English text is right or not, so I won't file a bug
against original, but will fix the French translation.

> i believe that it looks nicer keeping the layout coherent across
> translation.

But you do not explain why!  Translations are not displayed together
with original text, so imposing a similar layout (I keep this term
for simplicity even if I find it meaningless) does not make sense.

> > How do developers check how translations are rendered?
> 
> sorry but i don't understand what you mean.
[...]

I am wondering how you checked that the Japanese translation did fit
your aesthetic criterion.

Denis

Re: alioth.debian.org down

[Jérôme Marant]

En réponse à Stefano Zacchiroli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Alioth seems to be down, pings seems to stop at gatekeeper.terena.nl
> ...
> 
> Was this expected?

Yes, and no.

No, because it is a connection failure.
Yes, because the machine is a ia64 ;-)

Cheers,

--
Jérôme Marant

Re: donations wishlist?

[Sven Luther]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 10:15:54AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:51:05AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > I sent something like this to [EMAIL PROTECTED], since he's supposed to
> > > be our donations coordinator (at least, that's what I read at
> > > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2002/debian-devel-announce-200207/msg1.html),
> > > but haven't heard from him in a week. Not that I think he's ignoring me,
> > > but this could be discussed here too.
> > > 
> > > At http://www.freebsd.org/donations/wantlist.html, the FreeBSD
> > > developers have a list of computer-related stuff they could use to
> > > improve their work on the FreeBSD operating system. I think this is a
> > 
> > In general, I guess, this is a good idea.  However, I see that the
> > FreeBSD list is a bit cluttered with "private" requests that don't
> > seem to ensure me that the project will generally benefit from it as
> > well.  In case the above is not understandable, I believe, that
> > requests like 2x256DIMMs for home machines are not the proper type of
> > requests.
> 
> That is correct; however, I'm sure potential donators are smart enough
> to see that too, and not donate such things. Which is the beaty of such
> a list.
> 
> [...]
> > I could imagine that some people who spend time on improving the
> > debian-installer could use some non-ia32 machines as well, but I don't
> > really know.
> 
> Heh.
> 
> 
> I could use some non-mac m68k boxes to do exactly that :-)
> 

I could get Wouter Verhelst an older Amiga 1200 with mtec 68030
accelerator board. Would it somehow be possible to get some kind of
debian money for the shipping of it or something such ? And if yes, what
would be the procedure to ask about it ?

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Re: ITP: latex209 -- macro files of LaTeX 2.09 25-mar-1992 version

[Julian Gilbey]

On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 10:54:59PM +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote:
> From: Agustin Martin Domingo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: ITP: latex209 -- macro files of LaTeX 2.09 25-mar-1992 version
> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:50:39 +0200
> 
> > I am cc'ing this message to the debian-tetex-maint list. I think they 
> > would also like to know about this and will have a much better knowledge 
> > than I have about how possible it is and the incompatibilities that 
> > might arise.
> 
> Even in the latest teTeX 2.0.2, there are settings in texmf.cnf
> as follows;
> 
> TEXINPUTS.latex = .;$TEXMF/tex/{latex,generic,}//
> TEXINPUTS.latex209 = .;$TEXMF/tex/{latex209,generic,latex,}//
> 
> that is, there is basically no problem to provide latex209 
> macros under $TEXMF/tex/latex209 if the command was called 
> "latex209".

I believe that the LaTeX team would be very unhappy to have a latex209
package around.  They're already working towards LaTeX 3, and LaTeX 2e
has been the standard now for several years already.  The latex209
macros are, of course, available on CTAN for anyone who really needs
them.

   Julian

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Julian Gilbey, website: http://www.polya.uklinux.net/
   Debian GNU/Linux Developer, see: http://people.debian.org/~jdg/
 Visit http://www.thehungersite.com/ to help feed the hungry

Re: alioth.debian.org down

[Andreas Metzler]

Stefano Zacchiroli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Alioth seems to be down, pings seems to stop at gatekeeper.terena.nl ...
[...]

There is progress:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/CVS/alioth/exim/exim> cvs update
System bootup in progress - please wait
cvs [update aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
  cu andreas

Problems linking to libdb3++

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

I'm about to sponsor a program which uses libdb3++.  I have to admit that
I do not know anything about libdb3 and just try to foreward a problem which
occures only on my box - not at the box from the maintainer.  I just reduced
the problem to a minimum.  The configure script generated a C++ file which looks
like this:

   #include 

   int
   main ()
   {
   int major, minor, patch_level; DbEnv::version(&major, &minor, &patch_level);
 ;
 return 0;
   }

This is compiled with the command

   g++ -o conftest -g -O2   conftest.cc -ldb3_cxx

The output on my side is:

   In file included from /usr/include/c++/3.3/backward/iostream.h:31,
from /usr/include/db_cxx.h:52,
from configure:2975:
   /usr/include/c++/3.3/backward/backward_warning.h:32:2: Warnung: #warning 
This file includes at least one deprecated or antiquated header. Please 
consider using one of the 32 headers found in section 17.4.1.2 of the C++ 
standard. Examples include substituting the  header for the  header for 
C++ includes, or  instead of the deprecated header . To 
disable this warning use -Wno-deprecated.

I wanted to show this here to ask for opinions whether this is a bug in the
libdb3++-dev header files.  I regard it not to be related to the problem but
I think we should fix this anyway.  Should I file a wishlist bug report here?

So I continue with the real problem which is better visible with the command 
line
switch mentioned above:

  ~> g++ -Wno-deprecated -o conftest -g -O2   conftest.cc -ldb3_cxx
  g++ -Wno-deprecated -o conftest -g -O2   conftest.cc -ldb3_cxx
  /tmp/cc1tyWas.o(.text+0x17): In function `main':
  /tmp/conftest.cc:6: undefined reference to `DbEnv::version(int*, int*, int*)'
  collect2: ld returned 1 exit status

As I sais I have no idea what might went wrong here.  I tried this with 
g++-2.95,
g++-3.2 and g++-3.3 und er testing and unstable systems.  I always got this 
strange
message and I hope anybody could give me a hint which might solve the trouble.

Kind regards

 Andreas.

Re: donations wishlist?

[Frank Gevaerts]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 10:15:54AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> 
> 
> I could use some non-mac m68k boxes to do exactly that :-)
> 

Does that include boxes that are not supported by the kernel yet ? I
have a VME 68030 board with full hardware documentation here...

Frank

Re: alioth.debian.org down

[Ben Collins]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 11:23:51AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> En r?ponse ? Stefano Zacchiroli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > Alioth seems to be down, pings seems to stop at gatekeeper.terena.nl
> > ...
> > 
> > Was this expected?
> 
> Yes, and no.
> 
> No, because it is a connection failure.
> Yes, because the machine is a ia64 ;-)

Connection failure? I saw the machine output a halt message from root
just before I got disconnected and it went down.

Oh, and I've never had problems with the ia64 I am using :)

-- 
Debian - http://www.debian.org/
Linux 1394 - http://www.linux1394.org/
Subversion - http://subversion.tigris.org/
Deqo   - http://www.deqo.com/

Re: donations wishlist?

[Graham Wilson]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:51:05AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > At http://www.freebsd.org/donations/wantlist.html, the FreeBSD
> > developers have a list of computer-related stuff they could use to
> > improve their work on the FreeBSD operating system. I think this is a
> 
> However, Debian could indeed use quite some help through donations but
> we don't propagate our needs.
> 
> For example, there is no powerpc machine with chroot access since the
> hard disk in voltaire isn't large enough.  Also voltaire is the only
> PowerPC machine, and if it fails we're doomed.  A second PowerPC
> machine with a large disk could probably be helpful.
> 
> Also there are no public accessible mips and mipsel machines at the
> moment, even though this is worked on.
> 
> The sh3/4/eb port is stalled.  Once it is restarted some network
> connected machines would be helpful.
> 
> For the Hurd there are also no public accessible machines.  However, I
> heard that the Hurd is not yet stable enough to provide a network
> connected self-hosting machine.
> 
> I could imagine that some people who spend time on improving the
> debian-installer could use some non-ia32 machines as well, but I don't
> really know.

this list here seems like a good starting place for a donations list.
additionally, the donations in this list would not just benefit
individual people like the freebsd list, but rather would benefit the
whole project.

-- 
gram


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Looking for help of automake experts (Bug #190231)

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

I just tried to follow the advise of Ryan Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (see

  http://bugs.debian.org/190231

) which did not solved the problem which was couased only on MIPS but added
new trouble for (probably) all architectures.  I'm no automake expert and
I *really* do not know what to do here.

Any hints to fix this grave bug?

Kind regards

 Andreas.

Re: donations wishlist?

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 02:05:39PM +0200, Frank Gevaerts wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 10:15:54AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > 
> > I could use some non-mac m68k boxes to do exactly that :-)
> > 
> 
> Does that include boxes that are not supported by the kernel yet ?

If it passes by a kernel hacker first. And yes, we have Belgian m68k
kernel hackers. Dunno whether they're interested, but that's another
question :-)

-- 
Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org
Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org

"An expert can usually spot the difference between a fake charge and a
full one, but there are plenty of dead experts." 
  -- National Geographic Channel, in a documentary about large African beasts.


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Re: alioth.debian.org down

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 11:44:37AM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/CVS/alioth/exim/exim> cvs update
> System bootup in progress - please wait
> cvs [update aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
>   cu andreas

What a progress! :-)

BTW, why at the time of my first post many DNS weren't neither able to
resolve the alioth.debian.org hostname? I think that it should be
resolvable even when alioth is down, shouldn't it?

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  --  Master in Computer Science @ Uni. Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it}  -  http://www.bononia.it/zack/
"  I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not
sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!  " -- G.Romney


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Re: Do not touch l10n files

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 11:03:17AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> It seems to me this would be mitigated by two factors: 1) if they know
> enough to realize they should be emailing you in English, they probably
> realize they need to send the error messages in English too (by running
> e2fsprogs in English if possible, or providing an impromptu translation
> if not); 2) in single user mode, where I would expect most of the
> time-critical support requests to originate, it requires a significant
> amount of dedication to get a locale other than the C locale.

Sure, but both of these suggestions call into question whether or not
having translation teams translate those parts of e2fsprogs's .po file
which are for e2fsck are pointless or not.

> In practice, are you running into support requests where there is a
> language barrier because of l10n of the e2fsprogs?

Not yet, but to date there have been very few people who have actually
done .po files for e2fsprogs.  I have Turkish, German, Czech
translations, and that's really about it.

And yes, until someone starts agitating for /share/locale/... so that
the boot-time messages are translated, it's unlikely that the problem
of someone who needs to translate the e2fsck log file from Swahili
back to English will be a problem in actual real life.  (Which is a
good thing, because the translations of translations are generally
quite bad, and unlikely to be accurate enough that it will be easy to
figure out what the original English message was.)  But again, if
that's the case, it may be that internationlizing e2fsck was never a
good idea to begin with, or at the very least, a pointless exercise.

I dunno.  It's certainly a potentially heretical position, but it
really calls into question for whom are the e2fsck messages really
intended for.  Are they intended for the local user, who may not
understand English?  Are they intended for the system administrator
(and at least for today, it's pretty much laughable to assume that
someone could administer a Linux system without knowing English ---
although who knows, that might change some day)?  Or is it intended
for the people who try to provide free assistance to people who have
sob stories about hardware failures and unbacked-up data?  (Of course,
that model doesn't actually scale well.)

The traditional answer to this problem has been ugly message catalogs
id strings.  (i.e., the SYS-EXT2-ROOT_DIR_GONE-14356 prefixes).  But
they're ugly as all heck.  One potential solution is to cause the
printing of such message id's to be optional, but turned on by default
if NLS support is enabled and the language is non-English.  Figuring
out this will likely be an ugly hack, but perhaps that's the right
solution.

(Of course, this still doesn't answer the question of whether anyone
would ever want or use locale support to be enabled during the initial
boot sequence, such that the boot messages come up in the local
language)

- Ted

Re: Looking for help of automake experts (Bug #190231)

[Marcelo E. Magallon]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 02:42:35PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

 > ) which did not solved the problem which was couased only on MIPS but
 > added new trouble for (probably) all architectures.  I'm no automake
 > expert and I *really* do not know what to do here.

 Looking at the bug report, you say:

 > If I use the aclocal.m4 provided by upstream author:
 > 
 >   bash-2.05b$ autoreconf --force -v
 >   autoreconf: Entering directory `.'
 >   autoreconf: configure.in: not using Gettext
 >   autoreconf: running: aclocal  --output=aclocal.m4t
 >   Can't exec "aclocal": No such file or directory at 
 > /usr/share/autoconf/Autom4te/General.pm line 498.
 >   autoreconf: aclocal failed with exit status: 255
 > 
 > I can't understand this error because
 >   bash-2.05b$ ll /usr/share/autoconf/Autom4te/General.pm
 >   -rw-r--r--1 root 0   11147 Apr 20 22:49 
 > /usr/share/autoconf/Autom4te/General.pm

 what's missing is "aclocal", not Autom4te::General.

 >   autoreconf: running: /usr/bin/autoconf --force
 >   configure.in:19: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_CONFIG_HEADER
 > If this token and others are legitimate, please use m4_pattern_allow.
 > See the Autoconf documentation.
 >   configure.in:36: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_INIT_AUTOMAKE
 >   configure.in:52: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_MAINTAINER_MODE

 Since you did not run aclocal, you are still missing the automake
 macros.

 > I'm in vain now because I really do not know enough about autoconf to
 > fix this.

 You have really nice docs at your fingertips: info automake.

 In short: figure out why you don't have aclocal (which is part of
 automake1.x) (hint: you have aclocal-1.7)

 Marcelo

Re: ITP: latex209 -- macro files of LaTeX 2.09 25-mar-1992 version

[Olaf Weber]

Atsuhito Kohda writes:

> From: Agustin Martin Domingo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: ITP: latex209 -- macro files of LaTeX 2.09 25-mar-1992 version
> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:50:39 +0200

>> I am cc'ing this message to the debian-tetex-maint list. I think they 
>> would also like to know about this and will have a much better knowledge 
>> than I have about how possible it is and the incompatibilities that 
>> might arise.

> Even in the latest teTeX 2.0.2, there are settings in texmf.cnf
> as follows;

> TEXINPUTS.latex = .;$TEXMF/tex/{latex,generic,}//
> TEXINPUTS.latex209 = .;$TEXMF/tex/{latex209,generic,latex,}//

> that is, there is basically no problem to provide latex209 
> macros under $TEXMF/tex/latex209 if the command was called 
> "latex209".

Yes.  The main requirement for this to work well is that the latex209
installation be sufficiently complete, so that latex209 styles files
will always be found in preference to (possibly incompatible) latex2e
style files.  CTAN is a good place to get the distribution files.

But also note that historically, there has been little agreement on
what should be in a LaTeX 2.09 setup beyond Lamport's core.  One of
the results was that setups ended up being incompatible with each
other, even though they contained style files with same names.
Incompatible meaning one or both of "my document cannot be typeset
here" or "my document is typeset in a completely different way here".
So some finetuning will be required.

-- 
Olaf Weber

   (This space left blank for technical reasons.)

Re: Daft Internet Stuff [Re: Returning from "vacation". (MIA?)]

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 20 May 2003 07:14:33 +0100, Matt Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> I don't like school boy rules and I thought I'd tell everyone.

Good manners are school boy rules? I suppose I would have
 liked you better when you were younger, then.

manoj
-- 
There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot
over. --Larry Wall in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Bug#194039: ITP: mozilla-bonobo -- GNOME Bonobo browser plugin

[Andrew Lau]

Package: wnpp
Version: unavailable; reported 2003-05-21
Severity: wishlist

* Package name: mozilla-bonobo
  Version : 0.3.0
  Upstream Author : Christian Glodt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.nongnu.org/moz-bonobo/
* License : GPL
  Description : GNOME Bonobo browser plugin
 Mozilla-bonobo is a browser plugin. It "bridges" the browser to Bonobo, the
 GNOME component technology. It tries to support the Netscape 4 plugin API, and
 it should work on many different browsers.
 .
 In short: this plugin makes your browser use Bonobo controls to display
 supported file types inside the browser window or frame.
 .
 Homepage: http://www.nongnu.org/moz-bonobo/

Note to Chris: This is a CC of my Intent to Package (ITP) mozilla-bonobo for
the Debian GNU/Linux distribution. Preliminary packages should be available
with a fortnight of this email.

Cheers,
Andrew "Netsnipe" Lau

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux espresso 2.4.21-rc2 #1 Wed May 14 19:41:19 EST 2003 i686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C


-- 
--
* Andrew "Netsnipe" Lau Computer Science & Student Rep, UNSW *
*   # apt-get into itDebian GNU/Linux Package Maintainer *
*   *
* 1024D/2E8B68BD: 0B77 73D0 4F3B F286 63F1  9F4A 9B24 C07D 2E8B 68BD *
--


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Re: Debian MIA check

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-05-13 12:11]:
> Here is a list of packages in unstable maintained by people on James's
> lists. May not be complete, but I grepped for names and for emails
> seperately so probably found most of them.

Thanks for this list; thoes packages have been orphaned or otherwise
been taken care of now.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks

[twb]

I just had to write and say thanks.  Now that libfam0c102 is listed as a 
libfam0, I can install parts GNOME1 and GNOME2 *together*!  I didn't think this 
could even be done.

This is FANTASTIC, and yet another reason why Debian is simply the best 
distribution ever.

Keep up the great work, guys!
-twb

Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Martin Pitt]

Hi!

Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.

The problem is that this breaks the "noexec" mount option. If /foo is
mounted noexec, then one cannot do /foo/myprog, but 

/lib/ld-linux.so.1 /foo/myprog

will work.

This prevents proper separation of executable and writable files, thus
I consider this as a security hole.

Any comments to this?

Thanks in advance,

Martin
-- 
Martin Pitt 
home:  www.piware.de
eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Daft Internet Stuff [Re: Returning from "vacation". (MIA?)]

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 07:14:33AM +0100, Matt Ryan wrote:

> Emile van Bergen wrote:
> > However, I fail to understand why you want people to refrain from
> > bringing the netiquette under the attention of the people they are
> > receiving email from.
> 
> Never said they should refrain. I do think that it's a waste of time though.

Well, you are completely free to choose whether or not you advocate
netiquette-compliance yourself. So if you think it's a waste of time,
that's entirely up to you, and in no way interesting to anybody else I
think.

> > IOW, if everybody just tries to accomodate some reasonable wishes as
> > stated by the other party as far as is possible without effort (and
> > including a text/plain part is no effort, not forwarding virus hoaxes is
> > no effort, but proving to a robot that you are not *is*), there is no
> > need to drop any netiquette rules.
> 
> You don't need to drop any rules that you are happy with and comply with
> yourself. Just don't expect anyone else to do so.

Well, I can still ask, can't I? If it's no effort to the other party,
and after explaining the arguments, some rules actually makes sense to
him or her, then who knows, the other person may even comply. 

> I don't like school boy rules and I thought I'd tell everyone. The
> netiquette stuff (and others) are a pretty exclusive policy as there are
> such a myriad of rules that can be broken that its use is more to make the
> other party look stupid compared to the technical knowledge of their
> accuser.

The fact that netiquette is being abused for such purposes doesn't make
it less useful. That goes for any tool, be it technical or social.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl

Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?

[Denis Barbier]

On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 07:05:10PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Denis Barbier wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should
> > be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages.
> 
> The general rule is that manpages-$lang contains translated manual
> pages from the manpages (upstream name: man-pages) package, i.e. libc,
> general and kernel manpages.  However, translation upstream make
> exceptions so section 1 pages are included as well.
> 
> Hence, translations of manual pages from non-manpages packages should
> go into the package in question in general and not into the
> manpages-foo package.

There seems to be a consensus for this solution.

> > Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first
> > shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when
> > it becomes part of upstream tarball).
> 
> "Simply" disable it from the manpages-foo package.  That's already
> done with the manpages package (read: check how it's done) in Debian
> as well, since it ships some manual pages that are also present in
> other packages and Debian considered the other ones more appropriate.

I have something similar for manpages-fr, but it is done automatically
since I am lazy ;)
No offense in mind, but could you please update the manpages package?
Even if many translations in manpages-fr are outdated, few are newer
than their original; when man pages have been renamed (e.g. ttys->ttyS,
I do not remember if there are others) this is very confusing.

Denis

subscribe milouny@wanadoo.nl

[Eric Feliksik]

subscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Accepted pointless 0.3-3 (i386 source)

[Jarno Elonen]

> > Uhhh, nope, sorry.  Close them correctly or don't close them at all.
>
> Note, that a new upload, that correctly closes the bugs, will be incorrect
> as well.
>
> The reason for that is [...]

Although I'm not in any way involved in the actual issue:
Thank you for a good and calm explanation, Adam. I learned from it.

- Jarno

Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 05:45:21PM +0200, Martin Pitt wrote:

> Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
> If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.
> 
> The problem is that this breaks the "noexec" mount option. If /foo is
> mounted noexec, then one cannot do /foo/myprog, but 
> 
> /lib/ld-linux.so.1 /foo/myprog
> 
> will work.
> 
> This prevents proper separation of executable and writable files, thus
> I consider this as a security hole.
> 
> Any comments to this?

/lib/ld-linux.so.1 is not magic.  It is not setuid or privileged in any
other way in a normal Linux operation.  This should provide a hint as to the
type of 'security' which would be provided by changing its permissions.

'chmod o-x /bin/rm' doesn't prevent anyone from unlinking files.

-- 
 - mdz

Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Matthew Garrett]

Martin Pitt wrote:

>Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
>If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ sudo chmod a-x /lib/ld-linux.so.2
Password:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ ls
bash: /bin/ls: Permission denied
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ sudo chmod a+x /lib/ld-linux.so.2
bash: /usr/bin/sudo: Permission denied

Irritated now.
-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Emile van Bergen]

Hi,

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 05:45:21PM +0200, Martin Pitt wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
> If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.
> 
> The problem is that this breaks the "noexec" mount option. If /foo is
> mounted noexec, then one cannot do /foo/myprog, but 
> 
> /lib/ld-linux.so.1 /foo/myprog
> 
> will work.
> 
> This prevents proper separation of executable and writable files, thus
> I consider this as a security hole.
> 
> Any comments to this?

It's not possible if you don't give read permissions on /foo/myprog to
users who are not allowed to execute it.

If /foo/myprog is a shell script or executable by another interpreter
that the user is allowed to run, then you've still got your hole. In
short, I think you're trying to place a barrier at a very non-strategic,
if not indefensible place.

Also, keep in mind that it will prevent anything if that person was
prevented from running anything he put on the system himself in the
first place.

All that is hard to do, and not really necessary if you use the standard
Unix permission system sensibly. 

In general, you should not give access to sensitive files to "other" and
then to try and prevent "other" from using any sort of command such as
/foo/myprog that will give access to those files; you're making it
unnecesarily hard for yourself, and you'll almost inevitably leave one
or more access methods open. There are just too many ways to do it.

Running a non-setuid program as non-root should never be dangerous in
the first place, except to the files of the user running it. If it is,
you're already in great danger and should fix your security problem.

I'm not saying userland security is never needed or useful, but still:
never use userland security as a substitute for properly set up
filesystem permissions.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl


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Re: Debian conference in the US?

[Joe Drew]

On Sun, 2003-05-18 at 22:07, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days?

While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of
non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in
part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans
coming into the country.

For those reasons, I am planning to organise Debconf 4 in Vancouver (or
maybe somewhere else, if there's a lot of hate for vancouver) sometime
in the summer of 2004.

Debian Multimedia mailing list created

[Marco Trevisani]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi All,

the debian-multimedia mailing list has been created by the lists
administrators (thank you).

Whoever cold be interested you can subscribe here:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-multimedia/

This would also be a fantastic opportunitu, as well, for the agnula
project to help the Debian project with its contribution in this
field.

Now it is up to us, the more we are the better we will do...:-)

ciao again thank you,
marco trevisani


- -- 

* marco trevisanihttp://www.agnula.org *
* http://trevisani.net   [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
* Neither MS-Word nor MS-PowerPoint attachments please:*
* See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html   *
* Gpg Fingerprint = 6096 84B8 046C A5C9 B538  255E 9FFF 1121 3AFB FFA6 *

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Zghj0h0ZbIFdKNAjI2Wp7eQ=
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Symlinking /usr/share/doc/ is not allowed

[Adrian Bunk]

Several packages in Debian depend on another package and symlink their 
/usr/share/doc/ to the directory of this other package.

Section 13.5. of your policy says:

<--  snip  -->

13.5. Copyright information
---

 Every package must be accompanied by a verbatim copy of its copyright
 and distribution license in the file
 `/usr/share/doc//copyright'.  This file must neither be
 compressed nor be a symbolic link.
...

<--  snip  -->

This seems to imply that making /usr/share/doc/ a symlink is 
wrong, too.

Unless someone can convince me that my interpretation of your policy is 
wrong I'll start filing bugs against packages that symlink 
/usr/share/doc/ to the directory of another package.

cu
Adrian

BTW: I'm not subscribed to debian-devel.

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 05:15:22PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Martin Pitt wrote:
> >Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
> >If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ sudo chmod a-x /lib/ld-linux.so.2
> Password:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ ls
> bash: /bin/ls: Permission denied
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ sudo chmod a+x /lib/ld-linux.so.2
> bash: /usr/bin/sudo: Permission denied
> 
> Irritated now.

Indeed; /lib/ld-linux.so.2 is in the PT_INTERP field of the ELF header.
load_elf_binary() in fs/binfmt_elf.c uses open_exec() to open it, which
(fs/exec.c) contains this code:

int err = permission(inode, MAY_EXEC);
if (!err && !(inode->i_mode & 0111))
err = -EACCES;

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian conference in the US?

[Marc Singer]

> For those reasons, I am planning to organise Debconf 4 in Vancouver (or
> maybe somewhere else, if there's a lot of hate for vancouver) sometime
> in the summer of 2004.

Yipee!

experimental debconfised wu-ftpd package

[Chris Butler]

Hi,

I've finished work on debconfising the wu-ftpd package. It seems to work
on the couple of test systems I have here. However, I'd like to see the
package have a little bit more testing before I upload it to the
archive.

If anyone is willing to do this, bearing in mind that it MAY not be 100%
perfect, please grab the packages from the following apt source and give
them a try:

deb http://apt.crustynet.org.uk/ unstable main
deb-src http://apt.crustynet.org.uk/ unstable main

The reason I'm a bit wary of this is because it's almost a complete
rewrite of the installation scripts, and I'm not sure it covers all of
the weird cases it could come up against.

-- 
Chris


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Re: Symlinking /usr/share/doc/ is not allowed

[Gergely Nagy]

> Unless someone can convince me that my interpretation of your policy is 
> wrong I'll start filing bugs against packages that symlink 
> /usr/share/doc/ to the directory of another package.

Policy 13.3 says:

...

`/usr/share/doc/' may be a symbolic link to another
directory in `/usr/share/doc' only if the two packages both come
from the same source and the first package Depends on the second.

...

That is, symlinking this way is allowed. However, symlinking the
directory of a package coming from another source, is not. I wonder if
any package in Debian does that...

-- 
Gergely Nagy

Re: Firebird 0.6

[Brian Nelson]

Eric Dorland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> From the amount of mail I've gotten I guess people will be
> interested. I've uploaded mozilla-firebird_0.6-1 to my personal apt
> repository at http://people.debian.org/~eric/debian/. Just add:
>
> deb http://people.debian.org/~eric/debian/$(ARCH) ./
>
> to your /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get install
> mozilla-firebird. Note that This package does NOT
> Conflict/Provide/Replace my older phoenix package since they were
> unofficial, and this package doesn't actually conflict with the
> phoenix package (because of the name change). I'll probably upload
> this to unstable after a few more tweaks, if there's no objections.

Hi Eric,

Have you considered building the mozilla-firebird package from the
mozilla or (more likely) the mozilla-snapshot source package?  Given
that the firebird build system requires just a small modification to the
mozilla build system, I think it's possible to build both
mozilla-browser and mozilla-firebird from the same source.  Doing so
would reduce the large amount of duplicated files that are contained in
both mozilla and firebird.

I intended to look into this last weekend, but cvs.mozilla.org and
cvs-mirror.m.o were unreachable for me for the entire weekend.

-- 
Poems... always a sign of pretentious inner turmoil.


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Re: alioth.debian.org down

[Raphael Hertzog]

Le Tue, May 20, 2003 at 03:07:15PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli écrivait:
> BTW, why at the time of my first post many DNS weren't neither able to
> resolve the alioth.debian.org hostname? I think that it should be
> resolvable even when alioth is down, shouldn't it?

No because alioth has its own DNS delegation (in order to manage
.alioth.debian.org).

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://www.ouaza.com
Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Earn money with free software: http://www.geniustrader.org

Re: Symlinking /usr/share/doc/ is not allowed

[Andreas Barth]

* Adrian Bunk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030520 19:20]:
> Several packages in Debian depend on another package and symlink their 
> /usr/share/doc/ to the directory of this other package.
> 
> Section 13.5. of your policy says:
> 
> <--  snip  -->
> 
> 13.5. Copyright information
> ---
> 
>  Every package must be accompanied by a verbatim copy of its copyright
>  and distribution license in the file
>  `/usr/share/doc//copyright'.  This file must neither be
>  compressed nor be a symbolic link.
> ...
> 
> <--  snip  -->
> 
> This seems to imply that making /usr/share/doc/ a symlink is 
> wrong, too.

I don't see any objection to symlinking if both packages are created
of the same sourcepackage, the second one depends on
=first-package-version and (naturally) have the same copyright. The
typical case is a base package and a -doc package (or -suid, or -dev).
If policy is enforcing to duplicate the files that would really be
just a waste of disk space with no gain at all.

The policy vetoe to symlinking intends (in my interpretation) two
goals. One is to ensure that the licences don't "change" unintendidly.
This could e.g. happen if there is a global file called GPL, the
packages link there copyright statement to it, and the GPL-file is
incremented from GPL version 2 and later to GPL version 3 by just one
misbehaving program. The other is to make sure the copyright file is
always available. Both traps are avoided in the case where the
documentation directory is symlinked to the base packages directory.



> Unless someone can convince me that my interpretation of your policy is 
> wrong I'll start filing bugs against packages that symlink 
> /usr/share/doc/ to the directory of another package.

Of course I can't veto you of mass-filling bugs. But you really should
get a consensus before mass-filling.


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C

Re: Debian conference in the US?

[Aaron M. Ucko]

Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of
> non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in
> part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans
> coming into the country.

Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in
the third person.  I ask again, who on this list actually still feels
this way?

-- 
Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org)
Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info.

Re: Symlinking /usr/share/doc/ is not allowed

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:00:21PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:

> I don't see any objection to symlinking if both packages are created of
> the same sourcepackage, the second one depends on =first-package-version
> and (naturally) have the same copyright.

It makes it impossible to extract the changelog, copyright file, etc. from
the .deb (because it isn't there).

-- 
 - mdz

Re: Firebird 0.6

[Nikolai Prokoschenko]

Eric Dorland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ED> From the amount of mail I've gotten I guess people will be
ED> interested. I've uploaded mozilla-firebird_0.6-1 to my personal apt
ED> repository at http://people.debian.org/~eric/debian/. Just add:

I've installed a bunch of extensions while using root and now Mozilla
Firebird hangs when starting it as user. Does anybody else experience
this? Any hints on diagnosing?

-- 
Nikolai Prokoschenko 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Fellow developers,

I propose the following amendment to the Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote
tallying Constitutional amendment. This amendment supersedes the
amendment proposed in Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

If the sponsor rejects this change, I request seconds on this amendment,
so that it appears on the ballot.

Rationale for change:

   The amendment uses the concept of a Quorum requirement to inhibit
   "stealth decisions" by only a handful of developers. While this is a
   good thing, the per-option quorum from the amendment has a tendency to
   further influence the outcome of the vote in a hard-to-understand
   way. This modification corrects this deficiency.

   An easy example: a ballot with two items plus the default item.
   Quorum is 20, with 25 eligible voters voting.

   A B D   # of ballots cast
   2 1 315
   1   210

   Here, option B is preferred over option A by the voters. Under the
   original proposal, Option B would be discarded due to insufficient
   quorum requirements, and A would win. Under the amended proposal,
   option B would win.

Please join the discussion on debian-vote.

-- 
John H. Robinson, IV
jaqque () debian () org
--- proposal-srivasta   Fri May 16 09:42:59 2003
+++ proposal-jaqque Mon May 19 11:43:13 2003
@@ -1,139 +1,139 @@
 PROPOSAL
 __
 
  Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD  vote tallying:
 __
 
 
 Under 4.2 Procedure [for developers during a general resolution or
 election], change item 3 to read:
 
 3. Votes are taken by the Project Secretary. Votes, tallies, and
results are not revealed during the voting period; after the
vote the Project Secretary lists all the votes cast. The voting
period is 2 weeks, but may be varied by up to 1 week by the
Project Leader.
 
 __
 
 Under 5.2 Appointment of project leader, change item 7 to read:
 
 7. The decision will be made using the method specified in section
A.6 of the Standard Resolution Procedure.  The quorum is the
same as for a General Resolution (s.4.2) and the default
option is "None Of The Above".
 
 __
 
 Under 6.1 Powers [of the technical committee], change item 7 to read:
 
 7. Appoint the Chairman of the Technical Committee.  The Chairman
is elected by the Committee from its members. All members of
the committee are automatically nominated; the committee votes
starting one week before the post will become vacant (or
immediately, if it is already too late). The members may vote
by public acclamation for any fellow committee member,
including themselves; there is no default option. The vote
finishes when all the members have voted, or when the voting
period has ended. The result is determined using the method
specified in section A.6 of the Standard Resolution Procedure.
 
 __
 
 Under A.2 Calling for a vote, change items 2 and 4 to read
 
 2. The proposer or any sponsor of a resolution may call for a vote on that
resolution and all related amendments.
 4. The minimum discussion period is counted from the time the last
formal amendment was accepted, or since the whole resolution
was proposed if no amendments have been proposed and accepted.
 
 __
 
 Replace A.3 with:
 
   A.3. Voting procedure
 
 1. Each resolution and its related amendments is voted on in a
single ballot that includes an option for the original
resolution, each amendment, and the default option (where
applicable).
 2. The default option must not have any supermajority requirements.
Options which do not have an explicit supermajority requirement
have a 1:1 majority requirement.
 3. The votes are counted according to the the rules in A.6.  The
default option is "Further Discussion", unless specified
otherwise.
 4. In cases of doubt the Project Secretary shall decide on matters
of procedure.
 
 __
 
 Replace A.5 with:
 
   A.5. Expiry
 
If a proposed resolution has not been discussed, amended, voted on or
otherwise dealt with for 4 weeks the secretary may issue a statement
that the issue is being withdrawn.  If none of the sponsors of any
of the proposals object within a week, the issue is withdrawn.
 
The secretary may also include suggestions on how to proceed,
if appropriate.
 
 __
 
 Re

Re: Daft Internet Stuff [Re: Returning from "vacation". (MIA?)]

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 07:14:33AM +0100, Matt Ryan wrote:
> Emile van Bergen wrote:
> > However, I fail to understand why you want people to refrain from
> > bringing the netiquette under the attention of the people they are
> > receiving email from.

> Never said they should refrain. I do think that it's a waste of time though.

As opposed to plowing through your idiotic screed about how people
shouldn't have high standards, which is clearly not a waste of time
since it has important implications for how all developers maintain
their packages, right?

> > In short, I still fail to see your point.

> I don't like school boy rules and I thought I'd tell everyone. The
> netiquette stuff (and others) are a pretty exclusive policy as there are
> such a myriad of rules that can be broken that its use is more to make the
> other party look stupid

Maybe it's because people who don't understand netiquette really do look
stupid.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


pgp7KfM08lxrx.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: /run/, resolvconf and read-only root

[Thomas Hood]

[/run/ and] read-only root
~~
The /run/ idea is shelved, unless someone wants to take up
the torch for it.  Run-time state files moved out of /etc/ will
have to go into /var/run/.  The program, therefore, is:

1. Wherever possible, state files in /etc/ should be eliminated
   or moved to /var/run/.

2. If the latter cannot be done then programs should at least
   support the file being replaced by a symlink to a location
   outside of /etc/.

There has been some progress on #1.  For example, ioctl.save has
ceased to be, and printcap.cups is now kept in /var/run/cups/ .

Some files can be dealt with in way #2; for example, ifstate.

A summary of progress to date be found in the README file at:
   http://panopticon.csustan.edu/thood/readonly-root.html

resolvconf
~~
The resolvconf initiative is now being hosted on alioth.
The name of the project is "update-resolv".
http://alioth.debian.org/projects/update-resolv/

Interested parties are invited to subscribe to the
"update-resolv-devel" mailing list and to examine the
latest release of the resolvconf package.
(The current release is 0.6.)

-- 
Thomas Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

※酷网(KuWeb.Net)-超酷网址※-10M免费电子邮件

[酷网(kuweb.net)]

免费10M电子邮件。
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只要你想得到，就能找得到！
还有手机图片铃声下载。

网址之家：http://www.kuweb.net

短信铃声：http://sms.kuweb.net

这里一定能找到你所需的！

Re: security in testing

[Thomas Viehmann]

Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:57:13AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
>>This is a remeniscent (sp?)
> "remnant", probably. "reminiscent of" means "similar to".

My guess at what he meant was "reminiscence".

- ...
- a remembered experience
...
- something so like another as to be regarded as an unconscious repetition,
  imitation, or survival
(survival in the last definition)

Remnant might be nicer and/or more commonly used in English, though. (While
"reminiscence" with cence->zenz is sort of commonly used in German...)

Cheers

T.


pgp4IN2a3RG4d.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian conference in the US?

[Lars Wirzenius]

On ti, 2003-05-20 at 20:25, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of
> > non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in
> > part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans
> > coming into the country.
> 
> Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in
> the third person.  I ask again, who on this list actually still feels
> this way?

I do. The DMCA, and various laws and regulations made after 2001-09-11
combined with the suspicion that the US has me listed as an
international arms dealer make me nervous about entering their
jurisdiction.

I have no objection to a Debconf in the US, however. On the contrary, I
think it'd be a good idea. There's a ton of developers in the US, and
many more willing to travel to the US for a conference, so it'd be silly
not to.

-- 
Enemies of Carlotta 1.0 mailing list manager: http://liw.iki.fi/liw/eoc/

Debian Wiki

[michael d. ivey]

I'm pleased to announce that Debian Wiki (http://wiki.debian.net) is
back online, and should stay that way.  I've had lots of trouble with
Zope on my not-so-high-memory server, and that's why it sometimes is
down for now reason.  I was thinking of moving it to UseMod, but then I
read http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2003/05/14/kwiki.html ... and I was a
convert to Kwiki.

I've got all the old links working now, thanks to mod_rewrite.  We stil
don't have UserOptions, but they're coming.  BrianIngerson expects a few
releases this week, and I'm also coding mods as we speak.  Because it's
Perl, and very extensible Perl, I can make modifications to the wiki
formatting rules, behavior, etc., VERY easily.

Some pages still look very broken, since they use the old STX rules.
Please feel free to fix whatever you see.  Also, since the DB is stored
in flatfiles, if you come up with a good sed or perl -e line to run on
the whole thing, please let me know.

Sorry to spring this on folks, but it was the only way I could keep
DebianWiki going.  I think it will be good for us in the long run.

Thanks, and see you soon.

  --MichaelIvey, DebianWiki admin and DebianPackage:kwiki maintainer

-- 
michael d. ivey[McQ] : "A good messenger expects to get shot."
   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> :-- Larry Wall
http://gweezlebur.com/~ivey/ :
 encrypted email preferred   :


pgph2hoReC4Bi.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[Raul Miller]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 12:19:33PM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
>The amendment uses the concept of a Quorum requirement to inhibit
>"stealth decisions" by only a handful of developers. While this is a
>good thing, the per-option quorum from the amendment has a tendency to
>further influence the outcome of the vote in a hard-to-understand
>way. This modification corrects this deficiency.

"Hard to understand"?  We'd require a certain level of voter approval
before we'll consider an option -- options which don't achieve that
can't win.  How is this "hard to understand"?

Note also that your amendment would create situations in which a
developer voting against an option might cause that option to
win*.  How is this "easier to understand"?

* For example:

   quorum: 20

   developer has reason to believe that not many votes will be cast.
   developer has reason to believe that the few votes which will be
   cast will be in favor of an option which developer is opposed to.

   Casting ballot against that option might cause ballot to achieve
   quorum.

   [Yes, this circumstance is unlikely -- that's because "not meeting
   quorum" is itself unlikely.  If "not meeting quorum" becomes 
   likely then this example also becomes likely.]

To make your proposal work right, we'd need a separate quorum
determination phase which is independent of the voting phase.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul

寻找客户，广州商品信息网帮你手！

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

You actually propose two separate amendments. Please don't do that, it smells 
of politics.  :-/

John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
- 2. If the ballot has a quorum requirement R any options other
-than the default option which do not receive at least R votes
-ranking that option above the default option are dropped from
-consideration.
+ 2. If the ballot has a quorum requirement R, and less then R votes are
+cast, the entire vote is thrown out.  The amendment may be withdrawn,
+or a discussion period may be resumed at the sponsor's discretion.

I think I like this change.

+ 3. Any option with a supermajority requirement which does not defeat
+the default option by its required majority ratio is dropped from
+consideration.
- 3. Any (non-default) option which does not defeat the default option
-by its required majority ratio is dropped from consideration.

The point of wording it the "old" way was that any option which is ranked 
below the default by a majority is removed before starting the algorithm. 
That is intentional; otherwise, a case can be constructed where such an 
option could win, which is Not Good.

I'd reject this change.
-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
-- 
Losing your faith is a lot like losing your virginity
you don't realise how irritating it was 'til it's gone.


pgpI4xcuEfpVF.pgp
Description: signature

Re: Firebird 0.6

[Andreas Happe]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nikolai Prokoschenko wrote:
> I've installed a bunch of extensions while using root and now Mozilla
> Firebird hangs when starting it as user. Does anybody else experience
> this? Any hints on diagnosing?

been there, done that.

there were some files in /usr/lib/mozilla-firebird/chrome which were not
world readable. look for suspicious strace output.

Andreas

Re: alioth.debian.org down

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:06:17PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > BTW, why at the time of my first post many DNS weren't neither able to
> > resolve the alioth.debian.org hostname? I think that it should be
> > resolvable even when alioth is down, shouldn't it?
> 
> No because alioth has its own DNS delegation (in order to manage
> .alioth.debian.org).

But why doesn't it have any slaves?

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> 
> You actually propose two separate amendments. Please don't do that, it
> smells of politics.  :-/

the changes are related, if just 2 was changed, then the majority
requirements in 3 have an undesired side-effect.

let me find that message . .

= http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2003/debian-vote-200305/msg00046.html
= 
= If no supermajority is required the majority ratio is 1,
= which means that the option is dropped if V(A,D) < V(D,A)+1.
= So this implements a quorum of 1 in the sense of the original
= draft for all options.

> The point of wording it the "old" way was that any option which is ranked 
> below the default by a majority is removed before starting the algorithm. 

Not correct. The original proposal simply threw out the voter's intent
iff the option did not have R+1 people ranking it higher than default.

this is where the concept of quorum is being mis-applied. this is what
is being fixed.

> That is intentional; otherwise, a case can be constructed where such an 
> option could win, which is Not Good.

a much easier and likely case can be constructed where an otherwise
winning option is dropped before consideration, which is Even Worse.

-john

Re: Daft Internet Stuff [Re: Returning from "vacation". (MIA?)]

[Matt Ryan]

>As opposed to plowing through your idiotic screed about how people
>shouldn't have high standards, which is clearly not a waste of time
>since it has important implications for how all developers maintain
>their packages, right?

Seems you couldn't resist helping me by extending the thread? But thanks
anyway for the useful input on this. BTW, I didn't start off by telling
someone off for a minor infraction of a few extra lines of text in their
email. To illustrate further how barmy this .sig rule is, you can have many
lines of crap in the body of the email, but woe-be-tide you if you put some
of the in the signature at the end.
[Insert witty riposte about how crap this thread is here...]

>Maybe it's because people who don't understand netiquette really do look
>stupid.

Perhaps, but then this comment does support the elitist accusation.


Matt.

Re: Debian conference in the US?

[Richard Braakman]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:25:47PM -0400, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in
> the third person.  I ask again, who on this list actually still feels
> this way?

I do.  These days I won't travel to the US even if somebody would
pay me to.  It's just not safe.  Don't let that stop you from holding
a conference, though -- if you already live there, it's no extra risk :)

Richard Braakman

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Raul Miller wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 12:19:33PM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> >The amendment uses the concept of a Quorum requirement to inhibit
> >"stealth decisions" by only a handful of developers. While this is a
> >good thing, the per-option quorum from the amendment has a tendency to
> >further influence the outcome of the vote in a hard-to-understand
> >way. This modification corrects this deficiency.
> 
> "Hard to understand"?  We'd require a certain level of voter approval
> before we'll consider an option -- options which don't achieve that
> can't win.  How is this "hard to understand"?

by counting a ranking higher than default as a special vote. this is
what makes it hard to understand. it also opens up the avenue for
strategic voting via insincere voting.

example: quorum of 20, two ballots on the measure, plus the default
option. two major schools of thought: those that support option A, and
those that support option B. privately, each consider action on the item
better than no action, but the A supporters, being the smaller of the
two camps (10 members, vs the 15 members for B), really want their
measure to win. they, as a block, vote 132. the B supporters vote
sincerely, and vote 213.

using the rules as proposed by Manoj, option B would fail to make its
better-than-default quota (having only 15 of 20). option B would then be
dropped. A easily beats default, and thus A wins.

using a straight Condorcet, or even a Cloneproof SSD, option B would
win. my amendment restores that feature of Condorcet/Cloneproof SSD.

> Note also that your amendment would create situations in which a
> developer voting against an option might cause that option to win*.
> How is this "easier to understand"?
> 
> * For example:
> 
>quorum: 20
> 
>developer has reason to believe that not many votes will be cast.
>developer has reason to believe that the few votes which will be
>cast will be in favor of an option which developer is opposed to.
> 
>Casting ballot against that option might cause ballot to achieve
>quorum.

this is a strawman, because if default per-item quota.

>[Yes, this circumstance is unlikely -- that's because "not meeting
>quorum" is itself unlikely.  If "not meeting quorum" becomes 
>likely then this example also becomes likely.]

even if this were the case, if there were no quota requirements, as in a
straight Condorcet or Cloneproof SSD, the most preferred option would win
regardless.

the purpose of quorum is to inhibit ``stealth decisions'' by only a few
developers. this purpose is met very well by the amended implementation
of quorum. quorum is not meant to change the winner of the vote.

> To make your proposal work right, we'd need a separate quorum
> determination phase which is independent of the voting phase.

i fail to see that argument.

-john

Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Russell Coker]

On Wed, 21 May 2003 01:45, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
> If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.
>
> The problem is that this breaks the "noexec" mount option. If /foo is
> mounted noexec, then one cannot do /foo/myprog, but
>
> /lib/ld-linux.so.1 /foo/myprog
>
> will work.

The following the is the result of trying to do that under SE Linux.  Other 
LSM modules should also be able to do the same things.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp# /lib/ld-linux.so.2 /tmp/ls
/tmp/ls: error while loading shared libraries: /tmp/ls: failed to map segment 
from shared object: Permission denied
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp# dmesg | tail -1
avc:  denied  { execute } for  pid=27439 exe=/lib/ld-2.3.1.so path=/tmp/ls 
dev=03:02 ino=162902 scontext=rjc:sysadm_r:sysadm_t 
tcontext=rjc:object_r:user_tmp_t tclass=file
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp# wc /tmp/ls
2461992   69356 /tmp/ls
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp#

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Debian conference in the US?

[Roland Mas]

Aaron M. Ucko (2003-05-20 13:25:47 -0400) :

> Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number
>> of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil,
>> due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to
>> non-americans coming into the country.
>
> Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always
> in the third person.  I ask again, who on this list actually still
> feels this way?

I do.  A combination of DMCA, a certain affinity towards cryptography,
a certain dislike for some of the USA's behaviours (notably on the
international scene), a particular dislike against dissimulating my
opinions especially regarding the previous point, and a large
"République Française" written on my passport, makes me feel I would
not be very welcome in the USA.  That's only my personal opinion
though, and I'm in no way trying to turn anyone from organising a
Debconf in the USA or attending it.

Roland.
-- 
Roland Mas

Fate always wins...  At least, when people stick to the rules.
  -- in Interesting Times (Terry Pratchett)

Re: Do not touch l10n files

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Sat, 17 May 2003 20:27:34 +, "Andrew M.A. Cater"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu:

> 3. If there are two or more authoritative rule sets e.g. for 
> British/American/Canadian/Australian English [I don't know
> whether this is true - but it probably is] seek to come
> to an international consensus.  The standard British English
> text is Hart's Rules for Compositors (as used by Oxford University
> Press and the Oxford English dictionary).  This also includes
> elementary typesetting rules for other languages but does not
> claim to be authoritative for Spanish/Russian/Afrikaans etc.


There's really no need for such a consensus. We have different
locales for those different language variations, so they can be
used.

[]s!

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:   *  
Dúvidas sobre o Debian? Visite o Rau-Tu: http://rautu.cipsga.org.br

Re: Do not touch l10n files

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Mon, 19 May 2003 17:18:19 -0500, Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
escreveu:

> On 19-May-03, 11:03 (CDT), Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > The VMS-style error codes occurred to me as well.  Though if one goes
> > that route, I wonder if gettext any longer has advantages over msgcat.
> > :)
> 
> I realize you're being (at least somewhat) facetious, but if you
> start with a message like
> 
> fprint(stderr, "SYS-YOURFSCKED-1334 Stupid summer intern error");
> 
> used it consistently, and added "Please don't attempt to translate
> anything that looks like SYS-BLAHBLAH-CODE" to the docs, you might get
> much of what Ted wants and still get the advantages of gettext(). Of
> course, you don't get the full advantages of VMS system then, but you
> won't anyway on a Unix system.

I don't really get your point, but if you're saying that some work
would need to be done to avoid translators translating the VMS-style
erros, that's not really a problem:

fprintf (stderr, "SYS-YOURFSCKED-1334: %s\n",
_("Stupid summer intern error"));

That would add only the error message stuff to the potfile, for example.
Of course that's not a good way of doing that, but there're many other
ways:

fprintf (stderr, "SYS-YOURFSCKED-1334: ");
fprintf (stderr, _("Stupid summer intern error\n"));

Being one of them.

[]s!

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:   *  
Dúvidas sobre o Debian? Visite o Rau-Tu: http://rautu.cipsga.org.br

Re: Do not touch l10n files (was Re: DDTP issue)

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em 18 May 2003 18:06:40 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu:

> * Henrique de Moraes Holschuh 
> 
> | On Sat, 17 May 2003, Martin Schulze wrote:
> |
> | > should always try to stay as close to the original as you can.
> | > Changing the text layout is a NO-GO in my opinion - and in the
> | > opinion of our Apache people apparently.
> | 
> | Apparently. We are trying to bring to light that proper l10n
> | requires more than that.
> 
> We asked why the removal of the number «3» from the word «PHP3» caused
> the format of the whole description to the changed.  We asked _why_,
> we did not say «do not do this».  First, we wanted to know why.  Then,
> we might want to ask it to be changed back.
> 
> Somehow, this whole discussion has been blown completely out of
> propositions.

I think this's been answered a lot of times, and Fabiano is not
really asking why, he's telling us 'do not do this'.

Here's my personal answer to what I would have done that:

Let's say a translator in our team thought he should not modify the
layout although it is clearly not good for my language. Then I got
a bug report about that, and went to check it out. Or, simply,
I got a message from the translator asking me to update that translation.

I then discover the layout is really screwed up for my locale and
modify it, after removing the '3' from the translation.

So what's the deal? Can we l10n our files or we should not?

[]s!

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:   *  
Dúvidas sobre o Debian? Visite o Rau-Tu: http://rautu.cipsga.org.br

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

Oh, as a sponsor of the GR, I suppose I should clarify that I
 am not going to accept this amendment; I consider it a bad one. This
 makes our vote method fail the monoticity criteria
 (http://www.electionmethods.org/evaluation.htm). See Scenario 2 below.


I'll present two (perhaps contrived, but failing to make
 quorum is not a very usual scenario in any case).


 Scenario A:
Suppose the tech ctte has 10 members, and is trying to vote on
 the rainbow vote. The quorum is 4. (If you recall, the rainbow vote
 had 10 options). 

All 10 members vote -- and they all like like different
 colors, except that two people like red. Most are indifferent about
 the colors they did not chose, but they do not feel they should win
 -- and express their preferences by either only voting for the color
 of their choice.

In my version, since no option got the needed 4 votes, there
 is no winner.

In this amendment, red wins -- even though only 2 of the 10
 people voted for it (less than the quorum of 4). Red won, even though
 8 out of 10 people did not want to see it as winner.

This seems wrong to me. This amendment seems to make it a
 priority to make a decision -- any decision -- even if the number of
 people preferring the result is less than the quorum number of
 people. 

Consider the same scenario with 100 voters, quorum 9; and 10
 voting: even though only 2 people prefer red, it shall win.

Logically, I think, the sheer indifference of the voting
 population would be better reflected by not selecting a winner.

Scenario B:

Consider the case where the quorum is 45, and there have been 
 44 votes -- 23 for, 21 against. (Only one option on the ballot). I am
 opposed to the option.

At this point; under my version; I can express my opinions
 with no fear of harming my candidate. Under your amendment; if I do
 not vote; the vote is nullified. However, if I vote against the
 option -- the option shall win!!

If I do not vote, but some one else opposed to the option
 votes before the vote ends --- the option wins (even though the vote
 was against it)!!. If I had voted along with this other person, the
 vote would have been a draw.

So, if two people opposed to the option do not vote; the
 option loses. If either votes against the option, the option wins --
 if they both vote against the option, the vote is a draw, and the
 casting vote, if any, gets to decide.

This fails the Monotonicity Criterion (MC)

   Statement of Criterion

   With the relative order or rating of the other
   candidates unchanged, voting a candidate higher should
   never cause the candidate to lose, nor should voting a
   candidate lower ever cause the candidate to win. 

This is really bad.


manoj
-- 
I won't mention any names, because I don't want to get sun4's into
trouble...  :-) -- Larry Wall in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

[Raul Miller]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 02:39:08PM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> example: quorum of 20, two ballots on the measure, plus the default
> option. two major schools of thought: those that support option A, and
> those that support option B.

If the quorum of 20 is significant, neither school of thought is "major".

Perhaps "detectable" would be a better adjective.

> > * For example:
> > 
> >quorum: 20
> > 
> >developer has reason to believe that not many votes will be cast.
> >developer has reason to believe that the few votes which will be
> >cast will be in favor of an option which developer is opposed to.
> > 
> >Casting ballot against that option might cause ballot to achieve
> >quorum.
> 
> this is a strawman, because if  achieve the R+1>default per-item quota.

Expressed in terms of scenario: A vs B, quorum 20

Case 1:

15 ABD 
D wins

Case 2:
15 ABD
 8 BDA
A wins

Here, the vote(s) for B caused A to win.

Other examples are possible (for example: 19 ABD, 1 BDA).

> > To make your proposal work right, we'd need a separate quorum
> > determination phase which is independent of the voting phase.
> 
> i fail to see that argument.

See above.

-- 
Raul

Re: Symlinking /usr/share/doc/ is not allowed

[Brian May]

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:00:21PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> The policy vetoe to symlinking intends (in my interpretation) two
> goals. One is to ensure that the licences don't "change" unintendidly.
> This could e.g. happen if there is a global file called GPL, the
> packages link there copyright statement to it, and the GPL-file is
> incremented from GPL version 2 and later to GPL version 3 by just one
> misbehaving program. The other is to make sure the copyright file is
> always available. Both traps are avoided in the case where the
> documentation directory is symlinked to the base packages directory.

What if the user has version 1 of abc installed, and version 2
of abc-doc installed, AND /usr/share/doc/abc-doc is a symlink to
/usr/share/doc/abc, AND the copyright changed between version 1 and
version 2?

The user may lookup /usr/share/doc/abc-doc/copyright and get the wrong
version.

For a good example of why a copyright file might be completely changed
between two versions, consider ssh when it changed over to be built from
the "OpenSSH" sources. (It doesn't have a -doc package though).

Also I think it is worth pointing out in this circumstance that I
may want to install abc-doc even though abc is not installed or is a
different version (eg. to see what the package is like before installing
it).
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Joey Hess]

Colin Watson wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 05:15:22PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > Martin Pitt wrote:
> > >Is there any particular reason to have /lib/ld-linux.so.* exxecutable?
> > >If it is used only as a proper library, it need not be executable.
> > 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ sudo chmod a-x /lib/ld-linux.so.2
> > Password:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ ls
> > bash: /bin/ls: Permission denied
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/priv$ sudo chmod a+x /lib/ld-linux.so.2
> > bash: /usr/bin/sudo: Permission denied
> > 
> > Irritated now.
> 
> Indeed; /lib/ld-linux.so.2 is in the PT_INTERP field of the ELF header.
> load_elf_binary() in fs/binfmt_elf.c uses open_exec() to open it, which
> (fs/exec.c) contains this code:
> 
> int err = permission(inode, MAY_EXEC);
> if (!err && !(inode->i_mode & 0111))
> err = -EACCES;

That behavior always struck me as fairly evil -- it's never fun when one
single bit flip can take down a system, and I'd like to see the number
of bits that can do so be as small as possible. Now that you point out
the actual code I wish we could do away with that check. Does it really
buy anything for elf executables?

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Symlinking /usr/share/doc/ is not allowed

[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:02:01AM +1000, Brian May wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:00:21PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > The policy vetoe to symlinking intends (in my interpretation) two
> > goals. One is to ensure that the licences don't "change" unintendidly.
> > This could e.g. happen if there is a global file called GPL, the
> > packages link there copyright statement to it, and the GPL-file is
> > incremented from GPL version 2 and later to GPL version 3 by just one
> > misbehaving program. The other is to make sure the copyright file is
> > always available. Both traps are avoided in the case where the
> > documentation directory is symlinked to the base packages directory.

> What if the user has version 1 of abc installed, and version 2
> of abc-doc installed, AND /usr/share/doc/abc-doc is a symlink to
> /usr/share/doc/abc, AND the copyright changed between version 1 and
> version 2?

Then there's an RC bug in the abc-doc package, which should either have
a proper versioned dependency or ship its own copy of the copyright
info.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Debian port to AMD64 at the Linux Symposium

[Bart Trojanowski]

Hello,

  I was curious to know if anyone would be any interest among the Debian
developers attending OLS (www.linuxsymposium.org) this summer to discuss
the future of the Debian port to AMD64.  I will be securing us a space
with the organizers, but if there is only a low volume of interested
bodies then we can get together at a pub somewhere.

  And since I am on the topic, I have a few Debian-AMD64 tid-bits to
convey:

  - there is a alioth.debian.org project for the purpose of this port

https://alioth.debian.org/projects/debian-x86-64/

  - there is a temporary mailing list (see CC line) that was setup while
bug 162668 is being resolved.

  - for those that don't already know, Arnd Bergmann, has done some
great work in porting the toolchain packages and the kernel; you can
view them here:

http://arndb.de/debian/

Regards,
Bart
(impatiently awaiting his amd64 hardware)
  

-- 
WebSig: http://www.jukie.net/~bart/sig/


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Re: Executable /lib/ld-linux.so breaks noexec

[Ben Collins]

> That behavior always struck me as fairly evil -- it's never fun when one
> single bit flip can take down a system, and I'd like to see the number
> of bits that can do so be as small as possible. Now that you point out
> the actual code I wish we could do away with that check. Does it really
> buy anything for elf executables?

It could be as simple as some specification requiring that the INTERP be
executable. Maybe there's some magic in the ELF spec that requires that
behavior.

-- 
Debian - http://www.debian.org/
Linux 1394 - http://www.linux1394.org/
Subversion - http://subversion.tigris.org/
Deqo   - http://www.deqo.com/

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