RE: Testez l'installateur Debian....
sans trop m'avancer, je pense qu'il n'y a pas assez de mémoire ( d'où l'erreur no space left du cp ). Comme l'a indiqué Christian, il serait bien que vous fassiez un rapport d'installation. J'ai aussi testé l'installateur de Sarge et j'ai identifié quelques soucis. Je ne suis ni developpeur ni traducteur, je ne sais pas comment faire un rapport de bug, quelqun pourrait il m'indiquer la marche à suivre, une adresse mail ou un lien ? Mickael
licence libre?
Bonjour, Suite à un problème de licence sur le jeux de role Le règne des justes (ire-rotj), je suis amené avec l'auteur amont à modifier le chapitre copyright d'un fichier readme. Ci-dessous la nouvelle formulation pour être conforme aux DFSG: [...] Copyright and License - Reign of the Just is copyright (C) 2003 J. P. Morris, IT-HE Software. It is freeware under the terms of the BSD license. You can copy and use it as much as you want, but please, please try to keep the thing intact. If you want to re-distribute it in a modified form, e.g. for a Linux distribution, I'd appreciate being asked first (it may even make the job easier :-) Reign of the Just uses the IRE engine from IT-HE Software. If you want to try recompiling the game, get the source code from http://ire.sf.net You'll need version 0.90 or above. The IRE engine is under the BSD license. I'm not too keen on people ripping the artwork or music. Please ask me first. Some of the artwork is based on tiles done by Lost Dragon. You can find more about his artwork on http://www.lostdragon.com/. [...] Le jeux est sous licence BSD,et le fichier readme exprime les réticences de l'auteur en cas d'une réexploitation sauvage de son travail. Il n'interdit rien, mais souhaite juste être prévenu. ça me semble bon, non? Une autre question concerne le respect du droit moral. L'inclusion dans le logiciel d'autres images libres de droit (oeuvres tombées dans le domaine public ou libérées par l'auteur) dans le programme mais soumises au droit moral (c'est à dire qu'il est nécessaire de citer l'auteur et la source) peut-elle être considérée contraire aux DSFG? Merci d'avance pour votre aide. Alexandre -- Il vente, c'est le vent de la mer qui nous tourmente. - Pierre Mac Orlan http://alexandre.pineau.free.fr/
Re: licence libre?
Alexandre Pineau écrivait : Bonjour, [...] I'm not too keen on people ripping the artwork or music. Please ask me first. Cela semble bien une restriction... Some of the artwork is based on tiles done by Lost Dragon. You can find more about his artwork on http://www.lostdragon.com/. [...] Le jeux est sous licence BSD,et le fichier readme exprime les réticences de l'auteur en cas d'une réexploitation sauvage de son travail. Il n'interdit rien, mais souhaite juste être prévenu. ça me semble bon, non? Non, ce n'est pas ce qu'il dit : il veut être informé avant de faire quelque chose... c'est bien une restriction. Une bonne formulation serait : I will be enjoy of being asked if you want... Ici, on émet vraiment le souhait. Avant, il y a un impératif. Une autre question concerne le respect du droit moral. L'inclusion dans le logiciel d'autres images libres de droit (oeuvres tombées dans le domaine public ou libérées par l'auteur) dans le programme mais soumises au droit moral (c'est à dire qu'il est nécessaire de citer l'auteur et la source) peut-elle être considérée contraire aux DSFG? Non : c'est le respect du copyright que de renseigner ces informations. Elles sont d'ailleurs aussi importantes que les images elles-mêmes puisqu'elles donnent et le droit et le nom des auteurs. C'est tout fait conforme aux DSFG. PK -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Patrice KARATCHENTZEFF ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://p.karatchentzeff.free.fr '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
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Re: Bug#220199: ITP: mecab -- a Japanese Morphological Analysis System
On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 06:45, TSUCHIYA Masatoshi wrote: * Package name: mecab Description : a Japanese Morphological Analysis System Drop the leading 'a' and de-capitalise all words but Japanese. Mecab is a morphological analysys system. It can segment and tokenize Japanese text string, and can output with many additional informations (pronunciation, semantic information, and others). It will print the result of such an operation to the standard output, so that it can either written to a file or further processed. The first two sentences (with some editing) belong in the description. The last sentence belongs in the man page. Here's how I'd start the description: Mecab is a morphological analysis system. It can segment and tokenize Japanese text strings and can output many additional pieces of information (pronunciation, semantic information, etc). More information that this should be added to the description, for example mentioning what the strengths of Mecab are vs. the other (potential?) morphological analysis systems. By the way, the descriptions of ChaSen and JUMAN look *very* similar to the proposed description of mecab. Should this be the case? All of my comments apply to the descriptions of those packages too. More information which differentiates the packages should be added. -- Joe Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] My weblog doesn't detail my personal life: http://me.woot.net
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
Josip Robin wrote: It's been proven plenty of times that whenever we have task depend on a single person doing it, the lack of redundancy comes back and bites us in the ass whenever there's the slightest bit of a problem. Anthony Towns then wrote: Why do you think that contributes _anything_ to the discussion? It's not remotely insightful, rather it's trivially obvious. What that means is that Martin already knows it and understands it, and doesn't need to be told. It also means that, if it were easy to add some redundancy, it would already have happened. Which in turn means that it's hard. No. You're saying Because nobody has done it, it must be hard, which just isn't the way the world works; it makes so many wrong assumptions it's not even worth enumerating them. The specific case at hand is actually a counterexample to your argument. Let me list the facts I've heard on this list: 1) There is a single MIPS buildd admin. 2) He is the point of failure, for whatever reason. 3) Other architectures successfully have multiple buildd admins. 4) People are volunteering to administer MIPS buildds. 5) Yet, there is still a single MIPS buildd admin. Don't overlook the degree to which people can overlook the trivially obvious.
Debian Enterprise?
Over the past week, my boss and I have had discussions about the niche left by RedHat, and the possibility of working on a distribution/sub-project aimed at enterprise folks. The plan is to target those RedHat users and companies who are unwilling (or unable) to pay for RedHat Enterprise Linux, but need HA features. Our company falls into this category, but made the RedHat-Debian switch earlier on. Currently, we're forced to maintain our own kernels, compile apache/php from source, and use a few backports to woody. What we really need is: * a kernel that supports things like IPVS (Linux Virtual Server), UML (the skas host patch), 64-bit smbfs support, and various other things. RedHat's kernel had a slew of 2.6 backports, as well as HA stuff thrown in there. We need something like that (only less extreme; RH liked their experimental kernel features a bit too much). * Updated server-related packages; for example, we definitely need a php4 package newer than 4.1.2, and preferably built against apache2. I can think of a few ways to offer the above. The first is a standalone distribution, based on debian but with various enhancements (not a novel idea, by any means). We could either base this on testing, doing snapshot releases every 3-6 months, and offering security fixes, or on stable w/ various backports. We would probably have a stripped-down installer based on d-i, w/ the stock kernel being similar to redhat's kernel. Another way would be to have a debian sub-project; this would have a kernel that includes extra (enterprise) features (kernel-image-2.4.22-enterprise-1-686smp), amongst other things. I'd also like to see enhancements to d-i, work done to ease things like php into testing, and (if based around testing) security updates for testing. If folks are at all interested in this sort of thing, please let me know. Our long-term goals for this are to hire a developer or two (part or full time) to help maintain this project, as long as it's something we (and our clients) can use and support. Suggestions are most welcome.
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:46:07PM +1100, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote: Actually, Linux has been ported to all of the CPUs and systems I had in mind; in fact, ported by the vendor since there's demand for Linux. The 1 GHz dual-cores I mentioned are one from Broadcom (which drow also mentioned) and another one developed by PMC-Sierra. See http://www.broadcom.com/products/product.php?product_id=BCM1250 and http://www.momenco.com/products/jag-atx.html Ah... I suspected that :-) _very_ powerful is a matter of perspective. While the newer MIPS processors are indeed very fine pieces of hardware, these machines are targeted towards very specific markets where requirements are slightly different from those in the HPC community. Sure, noone will stop you from getting decent connectivity on these things and putting a bunch of them in a cluster configuration (and considering the historical record of the MIPS architecture in the floating point arena, this is probably an attractive proposition... if the price tag was a bit lower) _I_ was thinking of something with a somewhat larger power consumption. One can only hope SGI will survive long enough... Thanks for the info to both of you guys, Marcelo, wondering what do the MIPS folk do with Debian in the real world...
Re: Is vrms really still a Virtual Richard M. Stallman?
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:14:53PM +1100, Andrew Lau wrote: against his packages which uses a license his real self would approve. against packages which use a license his real self would approve. -- --- Andrew Netsnipe LauComputer Sci. UNSW Debian GNU/Linux netsnipe(+)users.sf.net\0alau(+)cse.unsw.edu.au\0 GnuPG 1024D/2E8B68BD: 0B77 73D0 4F3B F286 63F1 9F4A 9B24 C07D 2E8B 68BD - Nobody expects the Debian Inquisition! Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency! --- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Programming first steps.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 03:36:05AM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: I learnt C++ first, then switched to C later. Am I The Only One?(tm) No, that was the way it was taught at the University I've just managed to escape from. Still managed to produce a really crap crop of programmers, though. From what I've heard from people whose opinions I trust, Python is a pretty good language to bring yourself into the world. Just don't stick on thinking that programming has to be done that way. Take Lisp as an example of how to program in a totally different way (or Smalltalk, for that matter). - Matt
Re: Is vrms really still a Virtual Richard M. Stallman?
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:14:53PM +1100, Andrew Lau wrote: So is vrms now up for a name change before the real RMS decides to sue us for misrepresenting him! = ) vbranden? I like this one. Guardian of the Debian Freedoms. g - Matt
Re: Debian Enterprise?
Hi Andres, *, Andres Salomon, on 2003-11-17, 01:45, you wrote: If folks are at all interested in this sort of thing, please let me know. I am. We (the company I am employed with) are running Debian installations in Enterprise environments with focus on HA (failover, replication und such). Our long-term goals for this are to hire a developer or two (part or full time) to help maintain this project, as long as it's something we (and our clients) can use and support. I would like to participate in a sub-project. And if you like you are free to buy development services from us, of course ;-) Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417 pgpa9dwCbwXdf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian Enterprise?
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Andres Salomon wrote: Another way would be to have a debian sub-project; this would have a kernel that includes extra (enterprise) features I would strongly recommend this. The keyword ist Customized Debian Distribution. Recently I gave a talk at LinuxDays Luxemburg (a slight update from my talk at DebConf Oslo). I wished I would find the time to write a complete article about the slides which are available at: http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/200311_lux_cust/index_en.html Suggestions are most welcome. Feel free to ask about details if something is not clear about the slides or any other things are missing. IMHO a debian-enterprise is very much missing and would be a great enhancement. Kind regards Andreas.
Re: RFA: A lot of packages
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Simon Richter wrote: - pingus If I followed the discussion this one remains. I definitely have no time for this but I hope some people grab the hat for this very nice game ... Kind regards Andreas.
Re: RFA: A lot of packages
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003, Andreas Tille wrote: - pingus If I followed the discussion this one remains. I definitely have no time for this but I hope some people grab the hat for this very nice game ... If no one else wants it, I'm willing to take care of it. I know the codebase a bit because I (unsuccessfully yet) tracked #145424 and other endianness bugs. Sam. -- Sam Hocevar [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sam.zoy.org/
Re: Some observations regardig the progress towards Debian 3.1
* Brian Nelson wrote: Norbert Tretkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Adrian Bunk wrote: - testing, unstable or Debian 3.0 with backports aren't suitable for production systems Of course it is, Debian 3.0 with a few _selected_ backports works nice, also on production systems. Err, do you realize you're telling that to the person that maintains the largest collection of woody backports, including probably the few selected ones you're using? There is at least one bigger backports repository. And I'm not using Adrians backports. But that's both not the point. If he's saying they aren't suitable for production systems, you should take his word for it. Unfortunately Adrian didn't wrote why he thinks backports aren't usable for production systems. The only real problem with backports I see is that there are no guaranted security updates. This could be a reason for someone to not using backports. For me it's not, I'm using my own backports. -- - nobse
Re: Example of really nasty DD behavior
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Filip Van Raemdonck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: May I remember you it's retitling an RFP into ITP you responded to? Which was meant to avoid anyone else going through useless effort while the packages are waiting for ftp-master intervenience. When i started composing my ITP it was not retitled and you had not yet replied. I was interrupted many times so it took me 15-20 to finish it. I am not lying. Uh-huh. So where was yours to avoid others' duplicate work? My ITP came on time, before any packaging. I think it's wise to see if one is capable of building packages, then ITP. As you state, there are too many ITPs which are never fullfilled. Since in this case it was an old RFP, I immediately uploaded the packages as well. Yes, too many people not really serious. Your quick upload without any upstream/old-packager contact made me think your were not. Pity. One of these weeks I was about to contact you to see if you were in need of a sponsor of arkhart, following up to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Which is a message you sent to debian-mentors 3 months ago, while you only sent ITPs for arkhart 10 days ago. Seems you are a little late yourself? I thought findind a aponsor was first required, i was wrong. As you said i looked for a sponsor for many months, and i had no reply, so i found unnecessary to reserve packages in advance. When i got a sponsor, i did correct this quickly. Arkhart is uploaded and waiting for approval, so u'd be able to have fun with it soon :-). In the meantime, you can try slune. *Shrug* Well, the offer stands. I'm currently working out things with someone else to sponsor an RFAd package, but when that's worked out I'll sponsor you, if you wish. I've already found a sponsor. Thx for your proposal. Please understand this was not a personnal attack. There's so many people doing nasty things (like a so famous video player packager) that i found really important to give a word on the situation. When you find several ITPs filled more than 6 years ago and an official DD seems not to mind about using the BTS properly, you may wonder about the future of your prefered distribution. Thx for your explanation and proposal. Duck -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE/uKO0sczZcpAmcIYRAh51AJ48j3ntUkLFryxNE5vaea3Qu/W/0gCfZOMU +1ALNbQVJxOe0QbFOfi2624= =03lK -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Is vrms really still a Virtual Richard M. Stallman?
Andrew Lau wrote: So is vrms now up for a name change before the real RMS decides to sue us for misrepresenting him! = ) vbranden? vdlegal? Nominations are now open. debian-legalint signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:17:36AM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote: 4) People are volunteering to administer MIPS buildds. From what I've seen people are volunteering to *provide* MIPS buildds, as long as someone else administers them. Running a buildd for Debian requires more knowledge than just booting a machine, doing an install, pointing wanna-build at auric and crossing your fingers. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Australian DMCA (the Digital Agenda Amendments) Under Review! -- http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/copyright/digitalagenda pgphWsUYNvJA3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Some observations regardig the progress towards Debian 3.1
Norbert Tretkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Unfortunately Adrian didn't wrote why he thinks backports aren't usable for production systems. The only real problem with backports I see is that there are no guaranted security updates. [...] Imho the real potential for problems with backports is mixing different ones. E.g. backports A, B and C require a backported libfoo2c102 (woody only has the the API incompatible libfoo1) and each of them uses a different solution: * A has undone the c102 transition properly and ships a libfoo2. * B uses a backport of gcc 3.2 and has simply done a normal backport by decreasing the version-number and compiling with the g++-3.2 (The resulting library of course depends on the backported gcc-3.2 libstc++) * C has produced a broken backport, he has compiled libfoo2c102 with gcc-2.95. Mixing any two of A, B and C will fail because of Conflicts/Replaces. I have not tested it, but AFAIK it is e.g. not possible to use Gnome-2.2 and KDE-3 backports at the same time. cu andreas -- Hey, da ist ein Ballonautomat auf der Toilette! Unofficial _Debian-packages_ of latest unstable _tin_ http://www.logic.univie.ac.at/~ametzler/debian/tin-snapshot/
Re: Programming first steps.
Op zo 16-11-2003, om 16:44 schreef Chad Walstrom: On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 08:45:51PM +0800, David Palmer wrote: I thought that I might make a beginning at learning. I've searched the web, found information that goes beyond the definition of plethora, so I thought that I'd ask here. C is useful, stable, has a huge following. C++ is useful, changing, and has a huge following. You will most likely find people who know C than C++, and you will often find C++ programmers who write mostly C style code within C++. Perl and Python have different histories. Perl was an evolutionary language whose origin was to replace sed and awk. Python was written as a full-fledged programming language and benefits from this consistency. (Can you tell which one I prefer?) Perl has its usefulness, but I often hear of complaints over maintability when it is use in large projects. You won't find that in Python. I have one grudge against python, though: its mandated indentation looks very ugly and unstructured to me. Kinda reminds me of COBOL (and boy, do I have nightmares of having to write COBOL code at school) wrt a good beginner's language, I wouldn't start with C or C++. They're both great languages, but if you've never done any programming before, they might be, uh, confusing. I'd suggest finding some programming language with at least some decent string handling, bounds checking, and an intended audience of beginners. FreePascal is, I think, a good candidate. -- Wouter Verhelst Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org If you're running Microsoft Windows, either scan your computer on viruses, or stop wasting my bandwith and remove me from your addressbook. *now*. signature.asc Description: Dit berichtdeel is digitaal ondertekend
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
Op ma 17-11-2003, om 09:58 schreef Anthony Towns: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:17:36AM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote: 4) People are volunteering to administer MIPS buildds. From what I've seen people are volunteering to *provide* MIPS buildds, as long as someone else administers them. Not quite. Ingo is volunteering to provide a MIPS buildd, but since he's not a Debian Developer, he can't handle its logs. Thus, he's asked me, the person currently handling the logs of 'arrakis', his m68k Amiga which has been running as a buildd since early 2001, whether I would be willing to handle his MIPS buildd. I have no problem doing so; indeed, I'd love to expand my work outside of m68k. Since I've been handling buildd logs since halfway 2001, I'd say I'm qualified. However, In reply to a mail I sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED], requesting access to the mips wanna-build database and to add the machine to the incoming.d.o ACL, Ryan said he'd prefer to remain the only person in charge of the mips buildd. Running a buildd for Debian requires more knowledge than just booting a machine, doing an install, pointing wanna-build at auric and crossing your fingers. Sure; that's why nobody's suggesting that. -- Wouter Verhelst Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org If you're running Microsoft Windows, either scan your computer on viruses, or stop wasting my bandwith and remove me from your addressbook. *now*. signature.asc Description: Dit berichtdeel is digitaal ondertekend
Re: Programming first steps.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:15:45PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Op zo 16-11-2003, om 16:44 schreef Chad Walstrom: On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 08:45:51PM +0800, David Palmer wrote: I thought that I might make a beginning at learning. I've searched the web, found information that goes beyond the definition of plethora, so I thought that I'd ask here. C is useful, stable, has a huge following. C++ is useful, changing, and has a huge following. You will most likely find people who know C than C++, and you will often find C++ programmers who write mostly C style code within C++. Perl and Python have different histories. Perl was an evolutionary language whose origin was to replace sed and awk. Python was written as a full-fledged programming language and benefits from this consistency. (Can you tell which one I prefer?) Perl has its usefulness, but I often hear of complaints over maintability when it is use in large projects. You won't find that in Python. I have one grudge against python, though: its mandated indentation looks very ugly and unstructured to me. Kinda reminds me of COBOL (and boy, do I have nightmares of having to write COBOL code at school) wrt a good beginner's language, I wouldn't start with C or C++. They're both great languages, but if you've never done any programming before, they might be, uh, confusing. I'd suggest finding some programming language with at least some decent string handling, bounds checking, and an intended audience of beginners. FreePascal is, I think, a good candidate. I think the hardest thing about learning a new language is the Libraries. Variables, method calls, operators, scope are somewhat dicey to learn but you can pick it up in just about any language, once you learn the syntax. But to get a good education you need system libraries that do sophisticated things with strings and files and other nice things. That's why when I was learning I enjoyed Visual Basic so much: the system libraries were relatively easier (and also less powerful) than other languages. Microsoft's .NET class libaries are pretty easy to learn; they're slightly less idiomatic than Java even though they pretty much imitate them. In Linux, I like GTK/GLIB programming in C. The libs are pretty straightforward and complete.
RE: debian-installer beta 1
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Julian Mehnle wrote: That would be great! At least if it means ATARAID-style software RAID. No opinion about LVM-style RAID. Yuck (if by ATARAID you mean those PoS controllers from, e.g., Promise -- these are slow as a snail compared to md software RAID), and Yuck for LVM RAID too (slow, limited, cubersome). Good software RAID is md raid :) with LVM on top of it, of course. LVM is a good thing, if you do it right and never bother with 'striping' on the LVM layer. Do it in the md RAID layer (or hardware layer, for that matter). Is md RAID (I don't know this one) compatible with ATARAID in regard of the partition/storage layout on disks, i.e. can I use ATARAID drivers to access md RAID disks and vice versa? I need this kind of compatibility since I dual-boot Windows 2000 on the systems in question. PS: Please don't CC me when answering to the list. The Reply-To header is just there for private replies.
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:48:00PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: Since you're posting that as the DPL you're asking for the following reply. Sorry :) It's been proven plenty of times that whenever we have task depend on a single person doing it, the lack of redundancy comes back and bites us in the ass whenever there's the slightest bit of a problem. Why do you think that contributes _anything_ to the discussion? It's not remotely insightful, rather it's trivially obvious. What that means is that Martin already knows it and understands it, and doesn't need to be told. It also means that, if it were easy to add some redundancy, it would already have happened. Which in turn means that it's hard. This NIH attitude is really laughable. I see how you might have a vested interest in trying to defend the acts of the DPL, given that there've been cases where lack of redundancy among the release managers caused some difficulties. I didn't, however, expect that you'll actually try to sell this kind of bullshit as an actual argument that we need to trust the DPL who is supposedly asserting that things simply had to be done the wrong way. Even in jokes, the Debian leader isn't ever supposed to be herding sheep... I like to believe that in the naming of a donations delegate, the DPL intended the team to evolve as the first delegate gradually got help from others. Would have been nice to have been done right from the start, but oh well. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
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Re: bug #213450
Brian May [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello, There is a bug (actually a number of bugs now) against heimdal that causes it to segfault under certain conditions. The bug has been reassigned to libcomerr2. It also has a simple one word patch. However, I have not got any response from the debian maintainer. I volunteered to do an NMU, but still no response. I went to do the NMU, but instead get a unrelated (and unreported) FTBS error. (SCSI_DISK_MAJOR undeclared in misc/util.c:116). What are my options now? I guess that bug got introduced by the new linux-kernel-header package. You can see when SCSI_DISK_MAJOR disapeared to in the glibc/l-k-h includes or copy the defines from the kernel includes. If you think glibc headers should define SCSI_DISK_MAJOR file a bug against the respective package. MfG Goswin
Re: Some observations regardig the progress towards Debian 3.1
Norbert Tretkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately Adrian didn't wrote why he thinks backports aren't usable for production systems. The only real problem with backports I see is that there are no guaranted security updates. Er, you missed another big one, then: trust. Trusting the work of Debian developers by no means implies trusting each and every backport found on the net (not to mention other obvious problems outlined by Andreas). This could be a reason for someone to not using backports. For me it's not, I'm using my own backports. Good for you, but that does not solve the problem for Joe Random User. -- Florent
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Op ma 17-11-2003, om 09:58 schreef Anthony Towns: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:17:36AM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote: 4) People are volunteering to administer MIPS buildds. From what I've seen people are volunteering to *provide* MIPS buildds, as long as someone else administers them. Not quite. Ingo is volunteering to provide a MIPS buildd, but since he's not a Debian Developer, he can't handle its logs. Thus, he's asked me, Its intresting to note that Debian trusts several NMs and normal users to host and maintain their buildds (giving them access to silently backdoor every deb thats build there) but not enough to make them DDs. MfG Goswin
Re: Example of really nasty DD behavior
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:27:33AM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote: Scripsit Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] He could have posted his ITP sooner, too (unless in the unlikely event he actually made the package in a few minutes), but it's not such a big deal. Another possibility is that one only actually decides that one is willing to maintain the package in Debian after having *done* a workable first approximation to packaging and found no monsters lurking in the makefiles. One could always file an ITP and chance it to an RFP if the package turned out to be lemon. If locking the package is really the intent then it seems logical to file the ITP as soon as possible. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debian-installer beta 1
Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Julian Mehnle wrote: That would be great! At least if it means ATARAID-style software RAID. No opinion about LVM-style RAID. Yuck (if by ATARAID you mean those PoS controllers from, e.g., Promise -- these are slow as a snail compared to md software RAID), and Yuck for LVM RAID too (slow, limited, cubersome). Good software RAID is md raid :) with LVM on top of it, of course. LVM is a good thing, if you do it right and never bother with 'striping' on the LVM layer. Do it in the md RAID layer (or hardware layer, for that matter). Is md RAID (I don't know this one) compatible with ATARAID in regard of the partition/storage layout on disks, i.e. can I use ATARAID drivers to access md RAID disks and vice versa? I need this kind of compatibility since I dual-boot Windows 2000 on the systems in question. PS: Please don't CC me when answering to the list. The Reply-To header is just there for private replies. Of cause not. You need the host adapter specific ATARAID support (which is often far worse than the linux software raid). One could probably hack some lvm2 stuff together to access the drives but that would need the layout knowledge from the specific ATARAID driver. MfG Goswin
Re: Debian communication and attitude
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 05:12:38PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: And even if the ITP is filed in time, you can work for the waste basked since final ftpmaster approval can only be applied for after all work is done. And there are many cases where Debian has said no, we don't want your package. Well Marc I have to say that I have received some good advice from James as ftpmaster in the past. The ftpmasters are in a better position to judge what's best for the archive as a whole than I am (and than many of us). Did you consider heeding his advice? Cheers Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unidentified subject!
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Re: Example of really nasty DD behavior
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 02:41:24PM +0100, Duck wrote: Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I did contact him, but you didn't. ... but none of this is essential. I fully disagree. A good cooperation with upstream is really important to relay bugs, improve the software (build sys, compliance to the FHS, ...), ... When the program is GPL then u don't need upstream permission to package it but i find it more respectful to contact the author. Or that would be like not saying thanks because something is gratis. Sometimes it is necessary to work with upstream on the build system, bugs etc. Sometimes everything just works though and you can build the whole package without any discussion at all. There's no hard and fast rules. Duck Could you please post with your real name? I'm having a hard time taking you seriously. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Example of really nasty DD behavior
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:32:27AM +0100, Duck wrote: When you find several ITPs filled more than 6 years ago and an official DD seems not to mind about using the BTS properly, you may wonder about the future of your prefered distribution. Eh? I think you are placing too much emphasis on the ITP and the WNPP system. I think it has a useful place in avoiding (some) duplicate work, searching for new owners for packagers etc, but don't expect every transaction to go through that system. I have created and uploaded several new packages without sending ITPs. Usually these packages are discussed on a relevant mailing list (eg debian-hams) where the target audience is listening, but I never put in a formal WNPP entry. We co-ordinate without that. Similarly I just gave away a couple of my packages to someone else. No O or RFA bugs needed. I suppose if there were other people keen for those packages they missed out :-| but they'd never contacted me. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#220930: ITP: unace -- De-archiver for .ace files
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 01:28:31PM -0500, Joe Drew wrote: On Sun, 2003-11-16 at 09:33, Cameron Patrick wrote: I'm a native English speaker and I don't believe I've ever heard the term de-archiver; its meaning is clear, but it sounds 'wrong'. The hyphen, especially, looks out of place. Unarchiver is what I'd use if I had to coin a word for it, but I don't believe that's a common English word either. There are almost always better words than un$NOUN (or un$VERB). (Your description below is a good example of how to avoid un*.) I was once asked Do you un-close a door? Then why should you uninstall a program? Unarchive is just as bad a word as uninstall. We have an opposite of close: open. We're seeking an opposite for archive. Unarchive might be bad, but as Cameron and I said, dearchive is clumsy (even more so when hyphenated). Windows talks about Remove rather than uninstall. dselect talks about deleting and removing. I'd suggest something along the lines of tool for extracting ACE archives instead. This is a good short description. I agree. Better than making up new words, certainly! Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Programming first steps.
Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have one grudge against python, though: its mandated indentation looks very ugly and unstructured to me. Kinda reminds me of COBOL (and boy, do I have nightmares of having to write COBOL code at school) Well, I often heared about this argument, but in my experience, it always boiled down to whether the person asserting it had already tried Python (as opposed to only heared about the usual rumours). If you think that programs are to be written by humans, the indentation feature seems to me to be the *obvious choice*, as long you have access to a decent text editor. Proper indentation with spaces is not at all sloppy, ambiguous, or whatever you may come with. It just gives immediate visual, reliable feedback about what the code *means*, in the case where it defines syntactic blocks. Sorry, but the more I program in Python, the clearer the impression I get that all those block delimeters are only intended for people who don't bother using a real text editor or for programs that generate code and don't want to go the the hassle of indenting it. -- Florent
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:37:23PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:48:00PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: It's been proven plenty of times that whenever we have task depend on a single person doing it, the lack of redundancy comes back and bites us in the ass whenever there's the slightest bit of a problem. Why do you think that contributes _anything_ to the discussion? It's not remotely insightful, rather it's trivially obvious. This NIH attitude is really laughable. NIH usually stands for Not Invented Here, meaning someone presuming other people are wrong, and that only ones own ideas are right. You'll note, though, that what I said was that your claim was *trivially obvious*, which is quite a distance from wrong. I see how you might have a vested interest in trying to defend the acts of the DPL, given that there've been cases where lack of redundancy among the release managers caused some difficulties. You might like to try reading what I write, rather than assuming that I'm disagreeing out of some sort of paranoid fear for my job. You might also like to note the difference between observing a lack of redundancy, and doing something about it. I didn't, however, expect that you'll actually try to sell this kind of bullshit as an actual argument that we need to trust the DPL who is supposedly asserting that things simply had to be done the wrong way. No, I'm asserting that people who don't understand what's going on well enough to contribute anything other than trite cliches shouldn't contribute anything. If you can contribute something more valuable than trite cliches, please do; but so far, in this thread, you simply haven't. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Australian DMCA (the Digital Agenda Amendments) Under Review! -- http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/copyright/digitalagenda pgpWJ1sQK5TsM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote: Not quite. Ingo is volunteering to provide a MIPS buildd, but since he's not a Debian Developer, he can't handle its logs. Thus, he's asked me, Its intresting to note that Debian trusts several NMs and normal users to host and maintain their buildds (giving them access to silently backdoor every deb thats build there) but not enough to make them DDs. Hmmm, well, to become a DD I would have to apply as a DD, right? And that´s what I´m trying to avoid for some certain reasons. Regarding the backdoor issue... you have not the guarantee that even certified DDs don´t do this, as well as I don´t have a guarantee that the developers that have an account on that machine don´t do something harmfull with that... ;)) -- Ciao... // Ingo \X/
Re: Programming first steps.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 03:27:29AM +0200, David Starner wrote: Pascal is traditional, but is seriously a toy language with at least a dozen different groups of compiler-specific extensions. Ada is my personal favorite, Sure but if you pick one compiler you can get some work done. It's quite a good language to learn with. I still do some code in Borland's Object Pascal (aka Delphi) and enjoy it. Safer than C++ and with a decent syntax too! but doesn't do garbage collection (which may be okay, considering you'll have to learn it sometime, and unlike bounds checking, GC can encourage laxness in memory handling.) It also has a nice Free compiler with superior error messages Ada is a good choice. Not very fashionable but the compiler can find things at compile time that would be hard to find at runtime, which is very helpful when you're just learning. (Does GNAT still have the switch to enforce source code style checks? Fun!) (GNAT). Java is a current favorite, but it's a little weak on the Free side and Java is just a fad :-| Somebody will find an application for it any decade now. My university CS department stopped teaching Ada and started teaching Java to the first years a few years ago. Very tragic. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: debian-installer beta 1
Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is md RAID (I don't know this one) compatible with ATARAID in regard of the partition/storage layout on disks, i.e. can I use ATARAID drivers to access md RAID disks and vice versa? I need this kind of compatibility since I dual-boot Windows 2000 on the systems in question. Of cause not. [...] Thought so. So, I'll reiterate my original statement: Brian May wrote: I have tried debian-installer, and found it to be great! I just have three feature requests, if they aren't already supported: [...] 3. Software raid support? That would be great! At least if it means ATARAID-style software RAID. No opinion about LVM-style RAID. ;-)
Re: Some observations regardig the progress towards Debian 3.1
* Andreas Metzler wrote: Norbert Tretkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Unfortunately Adrian didn't wrote why he thinks backports aren't usable for production systems. The only real problem with backports I see is that there are no guaranted security updates. Imho the real potential for problems with backports is mixing different ones. I know that mixing backports from different repositories can cause problems, but I was talking about using _selected_ backports, not about using all backports from every repository available on the net. -- - nobse
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:10:53PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: It's been proven plenty of times that whenever we have task depend on a single person doing it, the lack of redundancy comes back and bites us in the ass whenever there's the slightest bit of a problem. Why do you think that contributes _anything_ to the discussion? It's not remotely insightful, rather it's trivially obvious. This NIH attitude is really laughable. NIH usually stands for Not Invented Here, meaning someone presuming other people are wrong, and that only ones own ideas are right. You'll note, though, that what I said was that your claim was *trivially obvious*, which is quite a distance from wrong. I was responding to your saying that it was too hard, but you conveniently removed that part of the quote. I don't believe in such a defeatist attitude because the relevant people (delegate and/or the leader) haven't provided any evidence to support that claim, and my past experience with similar tasks and with task management in general in Debian makes me think quite the contrary. I didn't, however, expect that you'll actually try to sell this kind of bullshit as an actual argument that we need to trust the DPL who is supposedly asserting that things simply had to be done the wrong way. No, I'm asserting that people who don't understand what's going on well enough to contribute anything other than trite cliches shouldn't contribute anything. If you can contribute something more valuable than trite cliches, please do; but so far, in this thread, you simply haven't. Whereas all you've provided is an assertion that nobody knows anything about the topic except the people that happen to be directly involved in it right now, which is patently unsupported. (That and an ad hominem attack as an added bonus.) -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: Programming first steps.
On 17-Nov-03, 05:15 (CST), Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have one grudge against python, though: its mandated indentation looks very ugly and unstructured to me. Kinda reminds me of COBOL (and boy, do I have nightmares of having to write COBOL code at school) As a long-time C coder, I agreed with you. But after doing a small python project, I was surprised at how quickly it became natural. It does help to have an editor that ensures you don't mix spaces and tabs. Steve, who would not object to the removal of character 9 from the ASCII set, even without the existence of Python. -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Programming first steps.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 08:49:03AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: | On 17-Nov-03, 05:15 (CST), Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I have one grudge against python, though: its mandated indentation looks | very ugly and unstructured to me. Kinda reminds me of COBOL (and boy, do | I have nightmares of having to write COBOL code at school) | | As a long-time C coder, I agreed with you. But after doing a small | python project, I was surprised at how quickly it became natural. It | does help to have an editor that ensures you don't mix spaces and tabs. I believe that tabs aren't a problem with Python so long as they really do indent to a multiple of 8 spaces. Editors which interpret tabs differently are broken^W^W can cause problems when editing Python code with tabs and spaces mixed though. Vim, Kate and Emacs all work admirably for editing Python code. | Steve, who would not object to the removal of character 9 from the ASCII | set, even without the existence of Python. :-) Cameron.
longer Debian confession
Dear all, A company has asked me whether they [sc]hould write a longer confession about their use of Debian, why they chose it, and how their impressions are. I asked them to submit a short text to www.d.o/users, but they would prefer to write an official statement, two pages or so. They will not publish this text on their own webpage, so the only way in which we can profit off this is if there is a place on www.d.o to publish it. Is there? Or should I tell them that they better spend their time doing other stuff (for Debian) and to stick with a 10 line confession in regular www.d.o/users style. Thanks, -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! pgp5VDHNnQfeg.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:43:51AM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: (for reference, I have commit access to dpkg, apt, and debbugs. this can arguably be more important than accepting new packages into debian, as doing something wrong with the above is very visible; ftpmaster is more of a hidden thing) Spoken like a man who has never accidentally deleted an architecture :-) Richard Braakman
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:48:00PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: It also means that, if it were easy to add some redundancy, it would already have happened. Which in turn means that it's hard. On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 03:00:44PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: This NIH attitude is really laughable. NIH usually stands for Not Invented Here, meaning someone presuming other people are wrong, and that only ones own ideas are right. You'll note, though, that what I said was that your claim was *trivially obvious*, which is quite a distance from wrong. I was responding to your saying that it was too hard, but you conveniently removed that part of the quote. Again, read what I wrote, not what you imagine I wrote. Difficult isn't the same as impossible, and hard isn't the same as too hard. I don't believe in such a defeatist attitude because the relevant people Good for you. What makes you think anyone else does? Obviously you do -- your so inclined towards that belief that you're reading things into what people write that just aren't there. (That and an ad hominem attack as an added bonus.) You know, people love claiming they've had an ad hominem attack as though it makes them some sort of martyr to the cause. It doesn't. An ad hominem fallacy is when you say you're an idiot, therefore you're wrong. Saying you're wrong, therefore you're an idiot is just a regular insult. BTW, I can't see where I did anything of the sort. I said your post contributed nothing to the discussion, was unhelpful and distracting and wrong, and, as such, said that you hadn't contributed anything other than trite cliches. As opposed to saying things like I see how you might have a vested interest in trying to defend the acts of the DPL, given that there've been cases where lack of redundancy among the release managers caused some difficulties. And hey, you even swore! So please excuse me if I think you're acting like a pompous idiot, and wasting everyone's time pontificating on things that you don't have the competence to actually work on. HTH, HAND. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Australian DMCA (the Digital Agenda Amendments) Under Review! -- http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/copyright/digitalagenda pgpc8wITOPUmI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: longer Debian confession
on Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:15:50PM +0100, martin f krafft ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Dear all, A company has asked me whether they [sc]hould write a longer confession about their use of Debian, why they chose it, and how their impressions are. I asked them to submit a short text to www.d.o/users, but they would prefer to write an official statement, two pages or so. They will not publish this text on their own webpage, so the only way in which we can profit off this is if there is a place on www.d.o to publish it. Is there? Or should I tell them that they better spend their time doing other stuff (for Debian) and to stick with a 10 line confession in regular www.d.o/users style. One suggestion is to turn this into an article for publication on a GNU/Linux news site -- LWN, NewsForge, LinuxToday, IBM's DeveloperWorks, or others. If you're looking for a collaborator on such a project, talk to me offline. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? Bush/Cheney '04: The last vote you'll ever have to cast. pgppXHmwVBSt2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: longer Debian confession
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:15:50PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: A company has asked me whether they [sc]hould write a longer confession about their use of Debian, why they chose it, and how their impressions are. testimonial is the usual term -- confessions are usually about things you're ashamed of, which hopefully they're not. Having some longer testimonials available sure sounds like a good idea. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Australian DMCA (the Digital Agenda Amendments) Under Review! -- http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/copyright/digitalagenda pgp6HfGLCe73s.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian Enterprise?
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:45:05AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: I can think of a few ways to offer the above. The first is a standalone distribution, based on debian but with various enhancements (not a novel idea, by any means). We could either base this on testing, doing snapshot releases every 3-6 months, and offering security fixes, or on stable w/ various backports. We would probably have a stripped-down installer based on d-i, w/ the stock kernel being similar to redhat's kernel. Another way would be to have a debian sub-project; this would have a kernel that includes extra (enterprise) features (kernel-image-2.4.22-enterprise-1-686smp), amongst other things. I'd also like to see enhancements to d-i, work done to ease things like php into testing, and (if based around testing) security updates for testing. If the sub-project approach would mean that the new packages and enhancements would be folded into Debian, then I think that is definitely preferable. I do not think that basing it on testing is the best approach; in my experience, enterprises prefer a longer (stable) release cycle than testing's daily churn. -- - mdz
Re: Programming first steps.
On 17-Nov-03, 09:13 (CST), Cameron Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 08:49:03AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: | As a long-time C coder, I agreed with you. But after doing a small | python project, I was surprised at how quickly it became natural. It | does help to have an editor that ensures you don't mix spaces and tabs. I believe that tabs aren't a problem with Python so long as they really do indent to a multiple of 8 spaces. Editors which interpret tabs differently are broken^W^W can cause problems when editing Python code with tabs and spaces mixed though. To clarify: AFAICT, Python is perfectly happy with any sort of indentation you choose, so long as it's consistent in any given block. You want to use 'spacespacetab', fine. Just don't try to mix it with 'spacetab' in the same block. As a practical matter, since the above are likely to be visually indistinguishable, you need an editor that always produces exactly the same character combination for a given number of columns of indent. For me, since I sometimes adjust indentation with the TAB key, and sometimes with the SPACE key, having the editor convert everything to space Works For Me(tm). I would expect any editor that claims to have a Python mode to DTRT. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Preparation of Debian GNU/Linux 3.0r2 (II)
GM == GOTO Masanori [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: GM At Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:22:37 +0900, GM Kenshi Muto wrote: And this package is must be removed from only Woody (already fixed in Sarge/Sid): xfonts-intl-japanese-big (Bug#215371) GM I think it's good idea to update this package to the latest, GM instead of removing from woody. Milan, do you think about this? If only japanese-big is to be removed, then intlfonts must be removed as whole, since .orig.tar.gz contains the offending fonts. For this reason I've uploaded a woody update of the package (intlfonts_1.2.1-0.woody.1) several days ago, that can replace the current woody version. Regards, Milan Zamazal -- And why?
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:10:54AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: It also means that, if it were easy to add some redundancy, it would already have happened. Which in turn means that it's hard. Again, read what I wrote, not what you imagine I wrote. Difficult isn't the same as impossible, and hard isn't the same as too hard. So, basically what you're saying that it's hard, and that nobody should be allowed to comment on it because the already delegated people are, what? Perfect? Self-sufficient? Incapable of changing their ways? BTW, I can't see where I did anything of the sort. I said your post contributed nothing to the discussion, was unhelpful and distracting and wrong, and, as such, said that you hadn't contributed anything other than trite cliches. I don't know about you, but I take it as an insult when someone accuses me of not knowing anything about something[1] and tells me to shut up. you don't have the competence to actually work on. And there you again. You seem rather inclined to judge other people's competence based on, well, I've no idea on what do you base these claims on. Plain old arrogance? [1] which is false in the case of organizing delegated positions. I have been doing work on various de jure delegated positions for years now. We can very well discuss my involvement, performance and any other issue related to any of them, but it surprises me to no end that someone would try to entirely nullify the experience I have with this. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: longer Debian confession
martin f krafft, on 2003-11-17, 16:15, you wrote: They will not publish this text on their own webpage, so the only way in which we can profit off this is if there is a place on www.d.o to publish it. Is there? Or should I tell them that they better spend their time doing other stuff (for Debian) and to stick with a 10 line confession in regular www.d.o/users style. www.debian.org/success-stories ;-) Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417 pgpXMwuXexVjm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#221294: ITP: python-rrd -- Python bindings for RRD
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
* Package name: python-rrd
Version : 0.2.1+cvs
Upstream Author : Hye-Shik Chang [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* URL : http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/py-rrdtool/
* License : LGPL
Description : Python bindings for RRD
RRD is the acronym for Round Robin Database. RRD is a system to store and
display time-series data (i.e. network bandwidth, machine-room
temperature, server load average). It stores the data in a very compact
way that will not expand over time, and it presents useful graphs by
processing the data to enforce a certain data density. It can be used
either via simple wrapper scripts (from shell or Perl) or via frontends
that poll network devices and put friendly user interface on it.
This package contains the RRD bindings for Python.
-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux play.smurf.noris.de 2.4.19-586tsc #1 Sun Oct 6 18:00:21 EST 2002
i686
Locale: LANG=en_US.utf8, LC_CTYPE=de_DE.utf8
--
Matthias Urlichs | {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
- -
Absence diminishes mediocre passions and increases great ones,
as the wind blows out candles and fans fires.
-- La Rochefoucauld
Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:13:59PM +0800, Cameron Patrick wrote: I believe that tabs aren't a problem with Python so long as they really do indent to a multiple of 8 spaces. Editors which interpret tabs differently are broken^W^W can cause problems when editing Python code with tabs and spaces mixed though. This seems to be Python's greatest Achille's Heel as well as one of its greatest assets. Working code in Python has a consistent look and feel. Improper indenting will give a descriptive error that is easy to track down. New programmers feel right at home with it, because it isn't all that significant of a change from psuedo-code outlines. 1. step 1 1.1 substep 1 1.2 substep 2... In addition, you're not forced to use a program like indent(1) or astyle(1) to enforce coding style; it's built into the Python interpretor. I have a love-hate relationship with the significant whitespace. I have always disliked 8 spaces per tab, because it takes up too much screen real estate on an 80 column display. Whenever I coded in C, I set my vi editor to interpret the tabs as 4 spaces. My mistake in using this was displayed when I tried to print with a2ps or enscript, when they were once again interpreted as 8 spaces. Arg! I then switched back to using only spaces for indentation, and this seems to be a consistent approach, but because personal opinion in coding style seems to be a right of passage amongst C coders, I could never get anyone to agree with me. ;-) Even the venerable linux kernel only accepts tabs, IIRC[1]. Another problem. Try cut-n-paste in X between code that uses tabs[2]. Sometimes the tabs are not preserved. Very odd and annoying. In any case, the documentation about how tabs and spaces are interpreted in Python are in the Language Reference[3]. Here's the relavent passage: First, tabs are replaced (from left to right) by one to eight spaces such that the total number of characters up to and including the replacement is a multiple of eight (this is intended to be the same rule as used by Unix). The total number of spaces preceding the first non-blank character then determines the line's indentation. If you continue reading this passage, you will understand why the authors of Python (namely GvR) choose this. It's simple to implement scope via significant whitespace. So, tabs v.s. spaces isn't really a concern except when mixing the two. If you use eight spaces for all indentation, it won't matter. If you use some other number, it's best to use spaces exclusively. If you use tabs exclusively, changing the appearance in your editor may simply be a configuration option away. What will I use? I still haven't decided; probably tabs/8 spaces. ;-p REFERENCES 1. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5780 2. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-December/075764.html 3. http://www.python.org/doc/current/ref/indentation.html -- Chad Walstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ pgpAJEKWCjID3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian Enterprise?
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:51:43 -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:45:05AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: I can think of a few ways to offer the above. The first is a standalone distribution, based on debian but with various enhancements (not a novel idea, by any means). We could either base this on testing, doing snapshot releases every 3-6 months, and offering security fixes, or on stable w/ various backports. We would probably have a stripped-down installer based on d-i, w/ the stock kernel being similar to redhat's kernel. Another way would be to have a debian sub-project; this would have a kernel that includes extra (enterprise) features (kernel-image-2.4.22-enterprise-1-686smp), amongst other things. I'd also like to see enhancements to d-i, work done to ease things like php into testing, and (if based around testing) security updates for testing. If the sub-project approach would mean that the new packages and enhancements would be folded into Debian, then I think that is definitely preferable. I do not think that basing it on testing is the best approach; in my experience, enterprises prefer a longer (stable) release cycle than testing's daily churn. Normally I'd agree; however, one of the issues I'm trying to resolve is the need for numerous backports. However, I do believe the subproject/kernel is a good start. I would prefer to see it based around testing snapshots, not necessarily testing itself.
Re: Is vrms really still a Virtual Richard M. Stallman?
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:04:00PM +0100, Roland Stigge wrote: Andrew Lau wrote: So is vrms now up for a name change before the real RMS decides to sue us for misrepresenting him! = ) Nominations are now open. debian-legalint I think this one, or a variation, has good prospects.. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/
Re: Programming first steps.
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 08:45:51PM +0800, David Palmer wrote: Hello, I thought that I might make a beginning at learning. I've searched the web, found information that goes beyond the definition of plethora, so I thought that I'd ask here. (1) What is the best language to start with? Learn more than one (breadth first search rather than depth first) :) Pick a procedural, pick an object-oriented, pick a functional, pick a 'glue' language. I'd recommend C, Perl, Java, Haskell. I would possibly recommend Python over Java if I had any experience with it. I think learning vi(m) is a good idea but grab emacs, kate and (insert someone else's recommendation here) and give them at least a cursory glance. Diversity is the key - as a user and a developer. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/
Re: RFA: A lot of packages
Quoting Daniel Gubser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Am Sam, 2003-11-15 um 16.52 schrieb Andrés Roldán: I will make an upload today then. sorry to be so late but Christian Perrier made an upload for uptimed today: YesAnd I want to point out that I really wonder why Daniel is not yet appointed as official DD. The work done on uptimed is really good. On the other hand his NM application only seems to be waiting for DAM approval for a few months now. Who should I bother with this in order to unlock Daniel Gubser NM application ?
Bug#221303: ITP: kanjipad -- Handwriting recognition tool for Kanji
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: kanjipad Version : 2.0.0 Upstream Author : Owen Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://fishsoup.net/software/kanjipad/ * License : GPL) Description : Handwriting recognition tool for Kanji Kanjipad translates drawings by the user into Kanji characters. Translated characters can be copied and pasted into other applications. A package of Kanjipad I have created is available at http://muse.19inch.net/~daf/debian.
Re: Bug#213450: bug #213450
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 03:14:49PM +1100, Brian May wrote: Hello, There is a bug (actually a number of bugs now) against heimdal that causes it to segfault under certain conditions. The bug has been reassigned to libcomerr2. It also has a simple one word patch. However, I have not got any response from the debian maintainer. Sorry, for some reason this is the first e-mail message I've received on this bug. I'm not sure why the earlier messages (when it was reassigned, and the other messages filed after that point on this bug didn't actually get to me). Looking at the code, I believe it's probably better to fix the code in com_right.c (which is also in libcomerr2) than to change the type of n_msgs, but let me do some more detailed analysis. I'll get back to you fairly quickly with an answer. Again, my apologies for the delay. I'm not sure why I didn't get the earlier messages, including the one which was directly addressed to me on October 17th, but for some reason it completely disappeared. The only thing I can think of is that for some reason the mit.edu spam filters ate your message for some reason. Very curious. - Ted
Re: Programming first steps.
ma, 2003-11-17 kello 18:49, Steve Greenland kirjoitti: To clarify: AFAICT, Python is perfectly happy with any sort of indentation you choose, so long as it's consistent in any given block. You want to use 'spacespacetab', fine. Just don't try to mix it with 'spacetab' in the same block. This topic is rather off-topic for -devel, I guess, but I'd like to point out that the above is not how Python deals with tabs and spaces. What it does, is expand the tabs and compare the indentations after that - this is, of course, the only sensible solution and takes care of any mix of spaces and tabs. Tab stops are every eight spaces (though I guess there may be a way to change that, if you're perverse), and the Python interpreter has the -t option to make it warn if tabs are being used inconsistently, i.e., if both spaces and tabs are used for indentation, if you're worried about that. I would expect any editor that claims to have a Python mode to DTRT. I've written Python code for a decade, with an assortment of editors. Almost none have had a Python mode, and never have I had any trouble with indentations. For example, I did not have any problem using /bin/ed for editing Python code (over a 1200 bit/s modem line, for which even vi was rather slow). -- http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/
Re: Programming first steps.
Andrew M.A. Cater dijo [Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 11:00:14PM +]: (2) Perl or Python. This seems to be another divided camp. What are the capabilities of each? What are the applications of each? Perl - wherever you used to use a shell script, consider Perl. Perl also has concepts from sed and awk. Wherever you have to pattern match which means more than a relatively straightforward grep, consider Perl. Perl is essentially sysadmin glue and text chunking - but a whole lot besides. The reason I say consider perl is because there are times when a four line shell script will do it well. There's More Than One Way To Do It :) I strongly reccomend Perl. Why? Well, that's how I learnt (or more properly, how I picked up after years of inactivity) programming (I had only BASIC experience before that). Perl is a language meant to be easy to write - Yes, your first code will probably not be very maintainable until you reach enough skills, but it will let you concentrate on how to program, how to deal with programming concepts - Don't care about what goes on behind scenes, there will be plenty of time in the future to learn about memory management and stuff. I think a newbie will really appreciate Larry Wall's vision of a pseudo-natural programming language. Python is a proper programming language but I know nothing much more about it to comment. I found Python to be a very nice, elegant language. I have not yet used it for any real project, but I am looking forward to give it a spin. -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5630-9700 ext. 1366 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:47:34AM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote:
[snip]
I have a love-hate relationship with the significant whitespace.
I have a hate-hate relationship with it. I much prefer free-style syntax
where the programmer is allowed to use his best judgment on how to indent
the code. Of course, in less-than-ideal projects, or projects with
less-then-ideal programmers, this could result in a mess, but I'm speaking
of personal preference here.
I have always disliked 8 spaces per tab, because it takes up too much
screen real estate on an 80 column display. Whenever I coded in C, I
set my vi editor to interpret the tabs as 4 spaces. My mistake in using
this was displayed when I tried to print with a2ps or enscript, when
they were once again interpreted as 8 spaces. Arg!
I personally insist on 8 spaces per tab, because way too many things break
otherwise.
I then switched back to using only spaces for indentation, and this
seems to be a consistent approach, but because personal opinion in
coding style seems to be a right of passage amongst C coders, I could
never get anyone to agree with me. ;-) Even the venerable linux kernel
only accepts tabs, IIRC[1].
Actually, I do agree with you. I only use tabs for comments, or for
overly-long lines which needs to be broken, but which does not represent
syntactical nesting, eg:
void some_function_with_a_very_long_name(some_data_type *a,
some_other_data_type *b, ...) { ... }
For syntactical nesting, I use spaces alone, even if it means I have to
expend extra effort to hit the space bar. The reason I insist on this in
my own coding style is because tabs mixed with spaces in a single stretch
of whitespace are just Pure Evil(tm). They show up all wrong in a viewer
that has a different tab size, and do not behave consistently when you are
re-indenting lines (eg., if a line starts with tabtabspacecode,
and you insert spaces in front of it to indent it, the spaces just get
eaten by the tab; and if you are outdenting it, the deleted tab causes
it to outdent too far, but inserting more spaces doesn't compensate for it
because the second tab eats the spaces).
I use tabs for comments only for my own sanity's sake, since otherwise I'd
have to count 40 columns every time I want to comment a line of code.
Another problem. Try cut-n-paste in X between code that uses tabs[2].
Sometimes the tabs are not preserved. Very odd and annoying.
That's because the terminal settings are b0rked. I personally delete all
programs that cannot cut-n-paste without messing up tabs and spaces.
Unfortunately, this happens a lot on the Winbloxe desktop at work.
[snip]
So, tabs v.s. spaces isn't really a concern except when mixing the two.
If you use eight spaces for all indentation, it won't matter. If you
use some other number, it's best to use spaces exclusively. If you use
tabs exclusively, changing the appearance in your editor may simply be a
configuration option away. What will I use? I still haven't decided;
probably tabs/8 spaces. ;-p
[snip]
For personal pet projects, I use 2 spaces per nesting level. Some people
think that's Pure Evil(tm), although I fully agree with you about wasting
screen real estate in 80 columns (yes, I am one of those freaks who insist
that all code must not have lines longer than 79 characters).
Nevertheless, for their sake I use 4 spaces per nesting level in group
projects.
Also, as an off-topic note, blank lines that contain tabs or spaces are
Pure Evil(tm), especially in code. One of these days I should write a sed
script to eliminate all incarnations of this Pure Evil(tm) from /usr/src.
T
--
There are four kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Re: debian-installer beta 1
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Julian Mehnle wrote: Is md RAID (I don't know this one) compatible with ATARAID in regard of the partition/storage layout on disks, i.e. can I use ATARAID drivers to access md RAID disks and vice versa? I need this kind of compatibility since I dual-boot Windows 2000 on the systems in question. No. It won't get you in a vendor lockin, and it is MUCH better performance-wise to boot. Just ditch the ataraid crap, the only use for it is to share raid arrays with MS Windows. You'll be much better off using the ataraid controllers as simple ata controllers, and using linux software raid (md raid). -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh
Re: Debian Enterprise?
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:45:05AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: Over the past week, my boss and I have had discussions about the niche left by RedHat, and the possibility of working on a distribution/sub-project aimed at enterprise folks. The plan is to target those RedHat users and companies who are unwilling (or unable) to pay for RedHat Enterprise Linux, but need HA features. Our company falls into this category, but made the RedHat-Debian switch earlier on. Check out the Beowulf list archives @ www.beowulf.org for October/November where just these sorts of discussions have been happening. I've been trying to advocate a switch to Debian from RH for a lot of the high powered folk who run major clusters. I'm not sure that a separate distribution would fly - Progeny would have carried on otherwise. Bruce Perens' proposed ??UserLinux?? would possibly be a candidate here. Nor am I sure that a sub-project is ideal. A customised kernel or two and potentially a meta-package might be enough. It doesn't make sense to fork unless you _really_ need to fork. A distribution based on woody + backports would be OK now, with a distribution based on the new stable once we release :) Pace Knoppix and Lindows, basing a distribution on testing may be more than a little difficult. Talking to Libranet and merging your Enterprise stuff there might be another option. In the longer term, I'm slightly sceptical about how many Debian-based distributions can survive outside Debian - but then I've had 9 1/2 years of 20/20 hindsight :) Just my 0.02 Euro / 0.03 US$ Andy
RE: debian-installer beta 1
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: Just ditch the ataraid crap, the only use for it is to share raid arrays with MS Windows. That was my point. So I can't ditch the ATARAID crap. Sorry.
Howto reconfigure alsa-modules-2.4.22-1-k6
I've installed alsa-modules-2.4.22-1-k6 but made a mistake when selecting the driver. So I tried dpkg-reconfigure alsa-modules-2.4.22-1-k6 but this doesn't show the driver list again! Okay getting dselect out, purge the package and install it again. But now the list isn't shown either. How do I get the driver list from this package? O. Wyss -- See http://wxguide.sourceforge.net/; for ideas how to design your app.
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:19:02PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: For personal pet projects, I use 2 spaces per nesting level. Some people think that's Pure Evil(tm), Most noteably perhaps, Linus Torvalds, although... although I fully agree with you about wasting screen real estate in 80 columns (yes, I am one of those freaks who insist that all code must not have lines longer than 79 characters). ...he agrees with you on that point! Torvalds' position is that code that cannot be expressed using 8-spaces-per-indent and wrap at 79 characters needs to be rewritten. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/
Re: Debian Enterprise?
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:55:36 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:45:05AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: Over the past week, my boss and I have had discussions about the niche left by RedHat, and the possibility of working on a distribution/sub-project aimed at enterprise folks. The plan is to target those RedHat users and companies who are unwilling (or unable) to pay for RedHat Enterprise Linux, but need HA features. Our company falls into this category, but made the RedHat-Debian switch earlier on. Check out the Beowulf list archives @ www.beowulf.org for October/November where just these sorts of discussions have been happening. I've been trying to advocate a switch to Debian from RH for a lot of the high powered folk who run major clusters. I'm not sure that a separate distribution would fly - Progeny would have carried on otherwise. Bruce Perens' proposed ??UserLinux?? would possibly be a candidate here. Nor am I sure that a sub-project is ideal. A customised kernel or two and potentially a meta-package might be enough. After reading Andreas Tille's link on sub-projects, I'm leaning more towards that. I have little doubt that a separate distribution (done correctly) would fly; look at the success of Knoppix, for example. However, my goals are more in line w/ the goals of a sub-project. It doesn't make sense to fork unless you _really_ need to fork. A distribution based on woody + backports would be OK now, with a distribution based on the new stable once we release :) Pace Knoppix and Lindows, basing a distribution on testing may be more than a little difficult. Talking to Libranet and merging your Enterprise stuff there might be another option. In the longer term, I'm slightly sceptical about how many Debian-based distributions can survive outside Debian - but then I've had 9 1/2 years of 20/20 hindsight :) Most Debian-based distributions are aimed at desktop users; this market is fairly crowded, especially when you take into account the distributions outside of Debian that focus on the same thing. On the enterprise level, however, there are few distributions that focus on just that segment. There are even fewer that offer their distribution for free (as in beer). RedHat was one of the few, and with their exit from that market, a large opportunity opens up. I do agree that there's little need to fork, so long as the sub-project structure is flexible enough. I need to do more research on that. Just my 0.02 Euro / 0.03 US$ Andy
Re: Example of really nasty DD behavior
Scripsit Hamish Moffatt On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:27:33AM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote: Another possibility is that one only actually decides that one is willing to maintain the package in Debian after having *done* a workable first approximation to packaging and found no monsters lurking in the makefiles. One could always file an ITP and chance it to an RFP if the package turned out to be lemon. If locking the package is really the intent then it seems logical to file the ITP as soon as possible. Yes, but must locking be the intent? I fail to see anything wrong with doing one's personal deliberations *without* preventing others from doing so in parallel. If other people don't want *their* work to go to waste, by all means let them file an ITP before doing wasteable work, and change it to RFP if it turns out to be naught. But if I'm okay with being beaten to the finish line and willing to consider my efforts a learning experience, I can see no reason to acquire a lock on the package before I'm prepared to defend the package on debian-legal and/or to the ftpmasters. -- Henning Makholm The practical reason for continuing our system is the same as the practical reason for continuing anything: It works satisfactorily.
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:19:02PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: Also, as an off-topic note, blank lines that contain tabs or spaces are Pure Evil(tm), especially in code. One of these days I should write a sed script to eliminate all incarnations of this Pure Evil(tm) from /usr/src. Python did away with that requirement for scope in 2.x. If you want to use blank lines for code logic separation in python 2.0, you must nest the line as far as the current block. For that reason, I don't use blank lines within class or method definitions when writing for Python 1.5.x. -- Chad Walstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ pgpoxeZnYjtzN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#53121: yoelA The lowest price Afe in the world
Did you know nfv That the normal cost for [EMAIL PROTECTED] htv is $20, per dose? We are running skbylsa a hot special ! TODAY Its only ptqbvxa an amazing $1.66 Shipped world wide ! http://www.pillsthatwork.com/index.php?pid=evaph2016 ouftcngheocm
Re: Re: Bug#209116: exim daemon does not restart after last two securityupgrades
You have me completely confused, I am considered a "computer Wiz", but I learned how to use the machine by trial and error. I can not read and interpret computerese. could you please explain to me what the terms you used mean, talking to a below average student(at best). ie.exim, daemon mode, debian-devil. thank you, J.F.Kearns-@ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 08:07:35PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:19:02PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: For personal pet projects, I use 2 spaces per nesting level. Some people think that's Pure Evil(tm), Most noteably perhaps, Linus Torvalds, although... although I fully agree with you about wasting screen real estate in 80 columns (yes, I am one of those freaks who insist that all code must not have lines longer than 79 characters). ...he agrees with you on that point! Torvalds' position is that code that cannot be expressed using 8-spaces-per-indent and wrap at 79 characters needs to be rewritten. [snip] That would mean 95% of non-trivial XSLT stylesheets would need to be rewritten... (Sorry, I'm just bitter after having to deal with non-trivial text-processing in XSLT. Don't try this at home without life insurance.) T -- Curiosity kills the cat. Moral: don't be the cat.
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:29:52PM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:19:02PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: Also, as an off-topic note, blank lines that contain tabs or spaces are Pure Evil(tm), especially in code. One of these days I should write a sed script to eliminate all incarnations of this Pure Evil(tm) from /usr/src. Python did away with that requirement for scope in 2.x. If you want to use blank lines for code logic separation in python 2.0, you must nest the line as far as the current block. For that reason, I don't use blank lines within class or method definitions when writing for Python 1.5.x. [snip] Hmm, I did not know this before. *chalks up one more reason to avoid Python like the plague...* T -- Leather is waterproof. Ever see a cow with an umbrella?
Re: longer Debian confession
also sprach Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au [2003.11.17.1726 +0100]: testimonial is the usual term -- confessions are usually about things you're ashamed of, which hopefully they're not. yeah, i actually knew that. bloody associative memory. thanks. Having some longer testimonials available sure sounds like a good idea. where would it go? -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! pgpNMSGTPxr17.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: longer Debian confession
also sprach Joerg Wendland [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.11.17.1815 +0100]: www.debian.org/success-stories ;-) cool shit. The requested URL /success-stories was not found on this server. question: could we make it be found? similar to /users, just longer? wishlist bug against www? -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! pgpxuN2CrUTJV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Some observations regardig the progress towards Debian 3.1
On Sun, 2003-11-16 at 23:02, Andreas Barth wrote: Actually, Adrian Bunk _was_ a Debian maintainer, but he retired; see http://www.debianplanet.org/node.php?id=581. He actively chose to make these posts instead of trying to make things better from the inside. Actually, this article is from January 2002, almost two years ago. So, to me as someone who is reading d-d since about April 03, it seems that Adrian is starting to help again Debian. I've seen a lot of usefull suggestions and bug reports, and I do welcome this as a usefull contribution to Debian. (I also share most of his conclusions. Why do we make a release plan if a lot of important packages ignore the plan?) Is it possible to automate _enforcing_ any parts of the release plan (eg. rejecting library so-name changes or such)? cheers zen
Bug#221386: general: addresses for section coordinators
Package: general Severity: wishlist We know that [EMAIL PROTECTED] will get one in touch with a package maintainer. But what if one wants to ask a question about a whole Section? Maybe there should be a person assigned for each Section [but what about free/nonfree] E.g. I want to ask the coordinator of debian's hamradio section if there are any programs that can tell one what country a given call sign is from, offline.
Re: MIPS port backlog, autobuilder machines and some arrogance
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:26:31PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Op ma 17-11-2003, om 09:58 schreef Anthony Towns: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:17:36AM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote: 4) People are volunteering to administer MIPS buildds. From what I've seen people are volunteering to *provide* MIPS buildds, as long as someone else administers them. [...] However, In reply to a mail I sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED], requesting access to the mips wanna-build database and to add the machine to the incoming.d.o ACL, Ryan said he'd prefer to remain the only person in charge of the mips buildd. Please. We can't have actual facts getting in the way of efforts to close ranks and circle the wagons. -- G. Branden Robinson|Lowery's Law: Debian GNU/Linux |If it jams -- force it. If it [EMAIL PROTECTED] |breaks, it needed replacing anyway. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
How to find all reverse depends of a package?
Without, that is, installing every package in Debian. I'm curious, for instance, as to why emacs20 hasn't managed to be removed yet. Presumably something depends on it. But I can't figure out what. -- Nathanael Nerode neroden at gcc.gnu.org http://home.twcny.rr.com/nerode/neroden/fdl.html
Re: How to find all reverse depends of a package?
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 06:33:52PM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote: Without, that is, installing every package in Debian. I'm curious, for instance, as to why emacs20 hasn't managed to be removed yet. Presumably something depends on it. But I can't figure out what. aptitude or deborphan
SANE compiling with patch for HP 4470c
Hi, I tried to compile the libsane package I downloaded via apt-get source to add support to my HP 4470c scanner (sources by Johannes Hub, http://home.foni.net/~johanneshub/). Unfortunately I don't know much about compiling and C programming but it seemed quite easy until I got the following error: make[2]: *** [v4l.lo] Fehler 1 make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/cpblu01/src/sane-backends-1.0.12/backend' make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Fehler 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/cpblu01/src/sane-backends-1.0.12' make: *** [build-stamp] Fehler 2 debuild: fatal error at line 554: dpkg-buildpackage failed! I tried to compile the sources without the patch from Johannes but the error is still the same. Can somebody tell me what goes wrong? Is there a library or a -dev-file missing Sorry, for this stupid question, but I have no idea which line 554 is meant and what is wrong!? Regards Thomas
RE: How to find all reverse depends of a package?
Nathanael Nerode wrote: Without, that is, installing every package in Debian. I'm curious, for instance, as to why emacs20 hasn't managed to be removed yet. Presumably something depends on it. But I can't figure out what. `apt-cache showpkg emacs20`
Re: How to find all reverse depends of a package?
Nathanael Nerode [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Without, that is, installing every package in Debian. I'm curious, for instance, as to why emacs20 hasn't managed to be removed yet. Presumably something depends on it. But I can't figure out what. apt-cache rdepends package -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Re: How to find all reverse depends of a package?
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:33:52 -0500 Nathanael Nerode wrote: Without, that is, installing every package in Debian. I'm curious, for instance, as to why emacs20 hasn't managed to be removed yet. Presumably something depends on it. But I can't figure out what. apt-get remove --purge package If any other package depends on it, apt-get will tell you. -- Carlos Sousa http://vbc.dyndns.org/
Re: How to find all reverse depends of a package?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Without, that is, installing every package in Debian. I'm curious, for instance, as to why emacs20 hasn't managed to be removed yet. Presumably something depends on it. But I can't figure out what. sledge:~$ apt-cache showpkg emacs20 Package: emacs20 Versions: 20.7-13.1(/var/lib/apt/lists/_mirror_debian_dists_unstable_main_binary-i386_Packages)(/var/lib/dpkg/status) Reverse Depends: python2.1-elisp,emacs20 wnn7egg,emacs20 sdic,emacs20 jde,emacs20 20.5a jde,emacs20 20.7 auto-pgp,emacs20 yc-el,emacs20 xslide,emacs20 xae,emacs20 w3m-el,emacs20 w3m-el,emacs20 w3-el-e20,emacs20 20.7-100 w3-el-e20,emacs20 20.7-0.1 vm,emacs20 ttcn-el,emacs20 trr19,emacs20 t-gnus,emacs20 speedbar,emacs20 skk,emacs20 semantic,emacs20 ruby1.8-elisp,emacs20 ruby1.7-elisp,emacs20 ruby1.6-elisp,emacs20 riece,emacs20 ri-db-el,emacs20 ri-cs-el,emacs20 records-gnuemacs,emacs20 python-elisp,emacs20 psgml,emacs20 plywood-elisp,emacs20 planner-el,emacs20 php-elisp,emacs20 pcomplete,emacs20 octave2.1-emacsen,emacs20 octave2.0-emacsen,emacs20 mule-ucs,emacs20 20.7 mozart,emacs20 mmm-mode,emacs20 migemo-perl,emacs20 mhc,emacs20 mew-beta,emacs20 20.7 mew,emacs20 20.7 malaga-bin,emacs20 mailcrypt,emacs20 lyskom-elisp-client,emacs20 lsdb,emacs20 lookup-el,emacs20 liece,emacs20 initz,emacs20 iiimecf,emacs20 20.6 html-helper-mode,emacs20 gnuserv,emacs20 gnus-bonus-el,emacs20 gnus,emacs20 20.3 flim,emacs20 ess,emacs20 eshell,emacs20 emacspeak,emacs20 emacs20-el,emacs20 emacs20-el,emacs20 20.7-13.1 emacs-wiki,emacs20 emacs-manual-ja,emacs20 elserv,emacs20 eieio,emacs20 egg,emacs20 edb,emacs20 develock-el,emacs20 ddskk,emacs20 cmail,emacs20 calc,emacs20 bitmap-mule,emacs20 auctex,emacs20 asn1-mode,emacs20 artist,emacs20 anthy-el,emacs20 Dependencies: 20.7-13.1 - emacsen-common (2 1.4.10) dpkg (2 1.9.0) libc6 (2 2.2.4-4) liblockfile1 (2 1.0) libncurses5 (2 5.2.20020112a-1) libxaw7 (4 4.1.0) xlibs (4 4.1.0) emacs20-el (0 (null)) emacs20-el (3 20.7-13) w3-el (0 (null)) Provides: 20.7-13.1 - www-browser news-reader mail-reader info-browser emacsen Reverse Provides: -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control.
Re: Howto reconfigure alsa-modules-2.4.22-1-k6
Otto Wyss dijo: I've installed alsa-modules-2.4.22-1-k6 but made a mistake when selecting the driver. So I tried dpkg-reconfigure alsa-modules-2.4.22-1-k6 but this doesn't show the driver list again! Okay getting dselect out, purge the package and install it again. But now the list isn't shown either. How do I get the driver list from this package? dpkg-reconfigure alsa-base Anyway, this message would have fitted better in debian-user Jose M. -- Jose M. Fernández Navarro | Debian GNU/Linux User #197079 Benetússer - València, Spain | http://mural.uv.es/~joferna
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
H. S. Teoh wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:29:52PM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:19:02PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: Also, as an off-topic note, blank lines that contain tabs or spaces are Pure Evil(tm), especially in code. One of these days I should write a sed script to eliminate all incarnations of this Pure Evil(tm) from /usr/src. Python did away with that requirement for scope in 2.x. If you want to use blank lines for code logic separation in python 2.0, you must nest the line as far as the current block. For that reason, I don't use blank lines within class or method definitions when writing for Python 1.5.x. [snip] Hmm, I did not know this before. *chalks up one more reason to avoid Python like the plague...* Uh, care to rewrite that since Python is now on 2.3 and 1.5.2 is several years old? -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- pgpBn1DSwtMxV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Programming first steps.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 01:17:10PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: I found Python to be a very nice, elegant language. I have not yet used it for any real project, but I am looking forward to give it a spin. Agreed. I used Linda as an excuse to learn Python, and it helped me _really_ understand OO concepts. FWIW, The New World Order of Linda (the rewrite I'm doing for 0.3.0) now stands at nearly 4,000 lines. Cheers, -- Steve I've lost my sig!
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
H. S. Teoh wrote:
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:47:34AM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote:
[snip]
I have a love-hate relationship with the significant whitespace.
I have a hate-hate relationship with it. I much prefer free-style syntax
where the programmer is allowed to use his best judgment on how to indent
the code. Of course, in less-than-ideal projects, or projects with
less-then-ideal programmers, this could result in a mess, but I'm speaking
of personal preference here.
Problem is that in languages which allow free-style syntax you're not
allowed free-style syntax at all. You're required to match }'s with {'s (or
the local language equivolents) and end all lines with ; (except for some
cases when you don't have to). This is still a restriction of the same order,
just with different characters and rules.
Oddly enough ever since picking up Python a few years back I've never
once felt constrained by its significant whitespace. I felt a profound
relief, however, when dealing with other people's code becuase it looked and
behaved just like mine. There is enough freedom in the rules that a
programmer doesn't have to worry about the end of the screen yet there is
enough sensible structure to make the code readable. I mean, let's get down
to it
if foo {
bar;
} else {
baz;
}
if foo
{
bar;
}
else
{
baz;
}
if foo {
bar;
}
else {
baz;
}
if you remove the points of contention between those three you're left
with...
if foo
bar
else
baz
...which is a colon away from legal Python syntax. :P
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-
pgpmr0ZaaMWcX.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces
H == H S Teoh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: H That would mean 95% of non-trivial XSLT stylesheets would need to be H rewritten... Or perhaps the XSLT language itself needs to be rewritten. Regards, Isaac.
Re: Some observations regardig the progress towards Debian 3.1
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 11:53:36PM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote: On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 05:42:20PM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote: Today, it's only 17 days until the officially announced aggressive goal for the release of Debian 3.1 [1]. That's a date many users know about, but I don't see any real progress towards Debian 3.1 during the last months. I suppose you don't subscribe to debian-boot or debian-devel-announce, then? OK, I admit my mail was a bit too general. There are serious improvements in the installer, but Debian is still _far_ away from a new release that was announced as aggressive goal for December 1st (and see my note on debian-installer below). Yes, there's the common argument Don't talk, fix bugs.. Unfortunately this doesn't work: Debian is too big. I might e.g. be able to fix 50 easy to fix RC bugs in unstable, but this would be lost in the noise, and wouldn't result in real progress. So instead, we have a system where people take individual (or small group) responsibility for a particular piece of software, to take care of it and fix its bugs. This way, we distribute the effort over a large number of people. The problem is, this often chaotic development system doesn't scale to over 1200 developers (including many MIA developers). Debian 3.0 contains 7 CDs with binaries and Debian 3.1 might contain 10 or more CDs. How do you explain to a user why there are 10 CDs, but this popular package is not included, and that package he needs is not included? One of the nice things about not having customers and contracts is that we don't need to answer these questions. If a package is missing, either there were unavoidable problems preventing its inclusion, or no one cared enough about it. I would very much rather have a package omitted than have to support software that no one else cares about. Saying The maintainer didn't care enough about the package you need. only sounds like a good reason to switch to RedHat... :-( If Red Hat ships more of the software the user needs, maybe it is a better choice. Choice is one of the great advantages of free software, after all. The question is perhaps a different one: What is the goal of Debian? This is not about free software or such goals, it's about what audiences and niches does Debian target at. Debian is usable for hackers [1] and as a base for projects like Knoppix and commercial distributions like Xandros and Lindows. Debian is usable as a server distribution and for desktops if you don't need the latest software. Noone forces you to support the latter uses, but if you don't support them, the only way for normal users to use Debian will be to buy Xandros or Lindows. I'm not saying this would be immoral or something like that, but e.g. a major release without Evolution [2] (currently ages away from reentering testing) might make Debian stable unusable for many users - and you should be aware of such consequences. Currently, many new upstream versions flood into unstable every day. Trying to get this or that package into testing is a Sysyphos task, since once this or that problem with moving packages into testing is solved, the next one pups up. For testing to work good, it's required to have unstable in a good state. Often new so-versions of libraries enter unstable, and e.g. KDE 3.2 might soon go into unstable. If testing should be frozen, it's needed to _freeze unstable_ (IOW: require RM approval for every upload to unstable). This doesn't need to be under a no new upstream code policy at the beginning, but at least beta versions, new so-names and major upstream releases (e.g. avoid KDE 3.2, but 3.1.5 is OK) should be avoided. I think this is more or less what was proposed in the last release timeline, where major changes in certain packages were frozen at various dates. There are some problems with the release timeline: Debian stable is too outdated, it doesn't even reasonable support most available new hardware. At least one release [3] every year would be required. Releases are not predictable for the average user. For one year after the release of Debian 3.0 there was no statement when Debian 3.1 will be released, and the latest announcement that Debian 3.1 will be released on December 1st (spread via Debian developers to many users and the press) seems to be quite unrealistic - it seems even unrealistic to miss this date by only one or two months. Another problem for the release is the Debian installer. The vast majority of Debian installations is i386. If the new installer isn't ready on all architectures it might be an option to ship some architectures without installer in 3.1r0, and add the installer for these architectures in 3.1r1 or 3.1r2. This way Debian 3.1 might be released more early, and even for the affected architectures it's better, since additionally to the status quo (installing and using Debian 3.0), they can
Re: Tabs v.s. spaces (was Re: Programming first steps.)
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 05:21:23PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
H. S. Teoh wrote:
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:47:34AM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote:
[snip]
I have a love-hate relationship with the significant whitespace.
I have a hate-hate relationship with it. I much prefer free-style syntax
where the programmer is allowed to use his best judgment on how to indent
the code. Of course, in less-than-ideal projects, or projects with
less-then-ideal programmers, this could result in a mess, but I'm speaking
of personal preference here.
Problem is that in languages which allow free-style syntax you're not
allowed free-style syntax at all. You're required to match }'s with {'s
(or the local language equivolents) and end all lines with ; (except for
some cases when you don't have to). This is still a restriction of the
same order, just with different characters and rules.
Oddly enough ever since picking up Python a few years back I've never
once felt constrained by its significant whitespace. I felt a profound
Significant whitespace? Shudder, that brings back crusty old memories
of Fortran. I have great fondness for fortran because of the wonderful
mathematical algorithms in LinPack, but I have no fondness for
significant whitespace.
relief, however, when dealing with other people's code becuase it looked
and behaved just like mine. There is enough freedom in the rules that a
programmer doesn't have to worry about the end of the screen yet there is
enough sensible structure to make the code readable. I mean, let's get
down to it
if foo {
bar;
} else {
baz;
}
if foo
{
bar;
}
else
{
baz;
}
if foo {
bar;
}
else {
baz;
}
if you remove the points of contention between those three you're left
with...
if foo
bar
else
baz
...which is a colon away from legal Python syntax. :P
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of
souls.
---+-
Re: Programming first steps.
Gunnar Wolf wrote:
I strongly reccomend Perl. Why? Well, that's how I learnt (or more
properly, how I picked up after years of inactivity) programming (I
had only BASIC experience before that). Perl is a language meant to be
easy to write - Yes, your first code will probably not be very
maintainable until you reach enough skills, but it will let you
concentrate on how to program, how to deal with programming concepts -
Don't care about what goes on behind scenes, there will be plenty of
time in the future to learn about memory management and stuff. I think
a newbie will really appreciate Larry Wall's vision of a
pseudo-natural programming language.
All of this applies equally to Python (and most other scripting languages
out there, to be honest) and I'd send a newbie to Python long before
inflicting Perl upon them. Don't get me wrong I started in Turbo Pascal and
really didn't get my grounding in programming until Perl but I sure wish
Python were around in the day.
Perl's TIMTOWTDI is a nightmare for beginners. Sure it's nice to know
you can do something different ways until you start reading examples which
actually start doing things multiple ways. A lot of programming isn't they
syntax it is the concepts the syntax is supposed to convey. Thinking in the
concepts is the hard part. Finding how to express those concepts is just
looking things up in a book. But in the beginning the two are the same. One
is learning both the concept and the syntax. Throwing a language at them with
multiple syntax for the same context is cruel and unusual punishment.
Python's diametrically opposed philosophy is much better. There should
ideally be only one obvious way to do something. With that in mind the
language itself is much smaller. Concepts are tied to one, maybe two syntax.
So in learning both at once, especially by reading examples, it is much easier.
Finally there is the simple fact that Python is interactive. There have
been many cases where I have a window on the left with my code and a window on
the right sitting in Python where I hash out my ideas because I'm not quite
sure how things are going to flow yet or exactly how the syntax works. I can
play with the syntax, keep my data fairly static, work out each step in detail
and as I do put that in the script on the left. IE, nothing quite compares to
learning how slices work across all kinds of sequences other thank just
playing with them like this:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~} python
Python 2.3+ (#2, Aug 10 2003, 11:33:47)
[GCC 3.3.1 (Debian)] on linux2
Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information.
foo = '12345'
bar = '1 2 3 4 5'.split()
foo
'12345'
bar
['1', '2', '3', '4', '5']
foo[2:3]
'3'
bar[2:3]
['3']
foo[1:3]
'23'
bar[1:3]
['2', '3']
baz = tuple(bar)
bar
['1', '2', '3', '4', '5']
baz
('1', '2', '3', '4', '5')
baz[1:3]
('2', '3')
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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