Re: Transition: krb5 to drop Kerberos IV (libkrb53 restructuring)

[Steve Langasek]

Hi Sam,

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:40:45PM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Sam> 3) Make libkrb53 depend on all the libraries it now contains
> Sam> and libkadm55 depend on the libraries it contains.

> Sam> 4) Set up symbols and shlibs files to point everyone at
> Sam> libkrb53 and libkadm55 as appropriate.

> It turns out this fails impressively.  The problem is that the library
> packages depend on each other.  So, for example, libk5crypto3 is
> needed by libkrb5-3.  If I make the shlibs file for libk5crypto3 point
> to libkrb53 instead of libk5crypto3, then libkrb5-3 depends on
> libkrb53.  But libkrb53 depends on libkrb5-3 because that is the point
> of libkrb53 in the new layout.

> I probably could hack something that would work: use symbols files
> that point at the split library packages internally and just before
> the debs are constructed run a sed script on symbols and shlibs.

> However as you'll recall the only reason we didn't point the shlibs at
> the new packages initially is to make things easy for unstable
> packages that get rebuilt while the new krb5 is waiting to migrate to
> testing.

Actually, I was meaning to comment on this.  Why would you not simply point
the shlibs at the component library packages at this stage?  The only side
effect is that the version of krb5 that includes the split library packages
has to migrate to testing before anything else depending on these packages
can reach testing, but that's not terribly onerous given that krb5's own
migration to testing won't be tangled up with other packages - this is
already a very "soft" transition, and I don't see the need for extra work on
the shlibs handling.

>  and In addition, either versioned replaces
> don't work as well for downgrades as unversioned replaces, or replaces
> on unpacked but not configured packages don't work as well as replaces
> on installed packages.

Possible...  downgrades are almost never tested in Debian, so there could be
a variety of dpkg bugs at work here. :)

Cheers,
-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> Maybe it could be interesting to open an accessibility section?

Maybe, maybe not. What packages would you put into it?

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 LOL die Telefonnummer vom Arbeitsamt Mönchengladbach ist echt 404-0?
 Soll das nen schlechter Scherz sein?


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object 
>> oriented
>>  language.
>> java Everything about Java
> How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
> Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
> packages now.

Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.

-- 
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[...]that almost anything related to "intellectual property" is idiotic
by it's nature, [...]


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Vincent Danjean]

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> gnustep
> gnustep*
> libgnustep*
> *.app
> *.framework

  I maintain a page.app package. It is right it is a gnustep application
(ie it uses the gnustep framwork). However, I never use the gnustep
environment. Upstream sometimes talked about rewriting Page into another
language (such as C or C++) to get more contributor but did not do it yet
(not enough free time).
  This is just to say that some *.app application are not tied to the
gnustep environment (for example, I find correct that gnumeric is in the
'math' section and not in the 'gnome' section).

  Regards,
Vincent

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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Marc, hi Andreas,

On Freitag, 27. Februar 2009, Steve Langasek wrote:
> Also, I haven't seen the exim4 maintainers comment on this proposal until
> now.  Obviously we would want to get that package to Provide: default-mta
> before filing bugs on other packages.

Could you please take a look at 508644 and comment. Thanks.


regards,
Holger


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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Giacomo A. Catenazzi]

Steve Langasek wrote:

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:42:39PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:


But as this would hardcode exim4 as the default MTA for Debian in a number
of packages, some better solutions have been proposed in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/05/msg00381.html with the best 
choice appearantly being  <87ve1faria@frosties.localdomain> which 
proposes that exim4 should provide default-mta, packages needing an MTA 
should depend on default-mta | mail-transfer-agent and the other MTAs should 
provide mail-transfer-agent. Then, if we want to change the default, we just 
need to touch two packages.


I agree that this is the best solution.


As per policy I'd like to gather consensus on this before mass filing bugs.


Given that m-t-a is mentioned explicitly in policy, and that "default-mta"
will be a virtual package, I think this should be recorded in policy as well
- though if a clear consensus emerges on debian-devel, there's no need to go
through the policy process before filing bugs.

Also, I haven't seen the exim4 maintainers comment on this proposal until
now.  Obviously we would want to get that package to Provide: default-mta
before filing bugs on other packages.


Hmmm. I partially agree, but then we have an unnecessary exception:
such virtual packages must have only one "provider", or else there
will be problems (IIRC) on dpkg, apt or ddbuild, if such dependency
is declared as first dependency [1].

I would prefer to create a real empty package:
default-mta (maybe in a source package debian-defaults), which depends
on exim.

ciao
cate


[1] policy 7.5 has only a note:
: If you want to specify which of a set of real packages should be the default 
to satisfy
: a particular dependency on a virtual package, you should list the real 
package as an
: alternative before the virtual one.

Probably we should be stricter.



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Vincent Danjean]

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> The new sections are:
> 
> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>  language.
> java Everything about Java
> videoVideo viewers, editors, recording, streaming
> fontsFont packages
> gnustep  The Gnustep environment
> xfce The XFCE Desktop, fast and lightweight Desktop
>  Environment.
> httpdWebservers and their modules
> localisationsLanguage packs
> debugDebug packages
> lisp Everything about Lisp
> vcs  Version control systems
> haskell  Everything about haskell
> zope Zope/Plone Framework
> database Databases
> kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

What about creating a 'libs' section for different languages?
Something like libs-ruby, libs-perl, libs-python, libs-java, libs-r, ...

This would allow to split the big 'libs' section and this avoid to put
libs (ie mostly automatic pulled packages) in sections where the user
search for applications (for example 'java' for programs that help to
write java development, ...)

It is also easier for tools such as deborphan to find libraries that
are not needed anymore. I know that the 'auto' flag should solve this
problem but it often happens for me to switch from auto to noauto when
trying to upgrade a package with 'apt-get install package' and no new
version of 'package' is available (in this case, the effect of
'apt-get install package' is to mark 'package' as 'noauto')

  Regards,
Vincent

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Emilio Pozuelo Monfort]

Vincent Danjean wrote:
> What about creating a 'libs' section for different languages?
> Something like libs-ruby, libs-perl, libs-python, libs-java, libs-r, ...
> 
> This would allow to split the big 'libs' section and this avoid to put
> libs (ie mostly automatic pulled packages) in sections where the user
> search for applications (for example 'java' for programs that help to
> write java development, ...)

I don't think 'java' would be the right place for applications. For example,
Eclipse is in devel rather than java. Same for Python, end users don't care if
the application is written in Python or C, they just want to play music or edit
a document or whatever.

So single java, python, perl... sections looks like the right choice to me.

Cheers,
Emilio



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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Benjamin M. A'Lee]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:18:07AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> As you don't know what grants and what duties you have when dealing with free 
> software, please try to inform yourself. You may get into trouble if you 
> change
> things that are forbidden by law.
> 
> Let me quote the license person from the board of directors from the 
> OpenSource 
> initiave:
> 
>   No OpenSource license gives you all grants you need to change anything  
>   in the  source. If the authors or Copyright holders of a software like,
>   they may always sue you. If you like to avoid being sued, play nicely
>   with the Copyright holders.

Uh, citation needed. "Giving you all grants you need to change anything
in the source" is practically the definition of an open-source licence,
with the exception of removing the original copyright and licence
notices.

What changes have been made that are supposedly illegal? (Note that
introducing new bugs is, sadly, not illegal anywhere that I know of. If
it were, Microsoft would've been out of business years ago, along with
probably everybody else. ;) )

-- 
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web: http://subvert.org.uk/~bma/ || gpg: 0xBB6D2FA0


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[William Pitcock]

Hi,

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 00:18 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> John Goerzen  wrote:
> 
> > Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >
> > > 
> > > The fork distributed by Debian may however be called dubious:
> > > 
> > > - The fork is in conflict with the Copyright law and thus may not be 
> > >   legally distributed.
> >
> > If your code was Free Software, then it is perfectly legal for Debian to
> > do what it does.
> 
> It seems that you first need to learn what Free Software means and what 
> constraints the License and the Copyright law enforce. A Free software license
> allows you to do many things, it does definitely not allow you what Debian 
> did.

While I personally do not use wodim, simply because wodim does not
inspire much confidence with me being based on cdrecord, I have a few
observations:

1. If your code was licensed correctly, and there wasn't concerns about
it's quality, then nobody inside Debian would have forked it.

2. I am not convinced that there is any legal issue with the fork of
cdrecord as wodim; it is clearly identified that it is a fork, and
anything published describing problems with cdrecord would be the
opinions of wodim's authors, not the Debian project itself, or the wodim
project itself. As a result, no personal harm to your reputation has
been done in the context of the Urheberrechtsgesetz[1] by the fork of
cdrecord itself. As a result, it appears that your argument that the
fork of cdrecord being illegal is actually invalid.

3. You might be taken more seriously at this point if you didn't act
like a toddler. I'm just saying... every time this subject comes up, you
show up and whine and whine and whine. It's doing you no good. Try
something else, like improving cdrecord with your time instead of
wasting it whining here.

Please note that I haven't even tried wodim. I suspect it is not any
better than cdrecord, and further I don't care. All of the burning apps
I use are based around libburn, which seems to have a drama-free
maintainer. I consider that to be a good thing, the fact that it
supports more than just CD burning without any bogus license key-based
closed-source "cdrecord-pro" software is a plus.

[1] Everyone here should read the Urheberrechtsgesetz here
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/UrhG.htm and stop listening to
Joerg's bollocks. He appears to be very misinformed.

> 
> > If your code wasn't Free Software, then we wouldn't be using it in the
> > first place.
> 
> > ISTR that your code WAS free, but now isn't.
> 
> The code that was taken by Debian for the fork WAS free but now it is no 
> longer
> because Debian did apply changes that are forbidden by law.

What changes are those? Can you identify them? "All of them" is not a
valid response here, just FYI.

> 
> As you don't know what grants and what duties you have when dealing with free 
> software, please try to inform yourself. You may get into trouble if you 
> change
> things that are forbidden by law.

I am pretty sure Eduard knows what he is doing.

> 
> Let me quote the license person from the board of directors from the 
> OpenSource 
> initiave:
> 
>   No OpenSource license gives you all grants you need to change anything  
>   in the  source. If the authors or Copyright holders of a software like,
>   they may always sue you. If you like to avoid being sued, play nicely
>   with the Copyright holders.

Just because you can sue someone does not make their actions illegal. I
can sue somebody for skipping a rock across a puddle in their own
property, mind I would be laughed out of court for doing this, but I
hope you see my point here.

> 
> Eduard Bloch made a big mistake, he started a deffamation campaign against 
> cdrtools and Debian made the mistake to support Eduard Bloch.
> 
> I don't know whether you are able to change the named mistake, but please note
> that I am the copyright holder for the vast majority of the cdrtools code. I 
> am 
> licensing the code and I am able to sue people for Copyright violations on 
> the 
> code, Debian is not. If Debian claims they might be sued because of so called 
> license problems in the original software, this is just FUD. I am not 
> interested to sue people as long as there is a chance to have a solution that 
> does not need a court. If Debian however continues to attack me, Debian should
> be aware that at some point I am forced to sue people for violating GPL and 
> Copyright law with the fork.
> 

People who make threats should be fully prepared to deal with backlash
from those threats. How will Fraunhofer handle such a public relations
disaster? You may want to keep this in consideration before continuing
with legal threats, as I am pretty sure that it will be all over
slashdot, and Fraunhofer will likely be asked for a comment.

> So let me ask: Is Debian willing to "play nicely" with me in the future or is
> Debian interested in continuing the attacks?
> 
> In case you don't know: My main interest is to make sure that the software I

Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Bastian Blank]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

> kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

Does this only include the user usable parts or also internal
development packages?

> linux-support-*
> linux-tree-*

As you explicitely list this, I assume the later.

Bastian

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Re: Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:51:39PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:42:39PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > But as this would hardcode exim4 as the default MTA for Debian in a number
> > of packages, some better solutions have been proposed in
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/05/msg00381.html with the best 
> > choice appearantly being  <87ve1faria@frosties.localdomain> which 
> > proposes that exim4 should provide default-mta, packages needing an MTA 
> > should depend on default-mta | mail-transfer-agent and the other MTAs 
> > should 
> > provide mail-transfer-agent. Then, if we want to change the default, we 
> > just 
> > need to touch two packages.

The referred post mentions an actual package rather than just a "provides:"
field.  It makes a difference.
> 
> Given that m-t-a is mentioned explicitly in policy, and that "default-mta"
> will be a virtual package,

Assume that in squeeze, the default changes to exim5.  With an actual
pseudopackage, someone having both lenny and squeeze (or unstable) in apt's
sources will have default-mta either from lenny (->exim4) or from squeeze
(->exim5).

With mere "provides:" (a virtual package), you'd have a version of both
exim4 and exim5 that provides default-mta.


Rawr?!?
-- 
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//  Never attribute to stupidity what can be
//  adequately explained by malice.


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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Giacomo A. Catenazzi]

Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:

Steve Langasek wrote:

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:42:39PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:

But as this would hardcode exim4 as the default MTA for Debian in a 
number

of packages, some better solutions have been proposed in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/05/msg00381.html with the 
best choice appearantly being  <87ve1faria@frosties.localdomain> 
which proposes that exim4 should provide default-mta, packages 
needing an MTA should depend on default-mta | mail-transfer-agent and 
the other MTAs should provide mail-transfer-agent. Then, if we want 
to change the default, we just need to touch two packages.


I agree that this is the best solution.

As per policy I'd like to gather consensus on this before mass filing 
bugs.


Given that m-t-a is mentioned explicitly in policy, and that 
"default-mta"
will be a virtual package, I think this should be recorded in policy 
as well
- though if a clear consensus emerges on debian-devel, there's no need 
to go

through the policy process before filing bugs.

Also, I haven't seen the exim4 maintainers comment on this proposal until
now.  Obviously we would want to get that package to Provide: default-mta
before filing bugs on other packages.


Hmmm. I partially agree, but then we have an unnecessary exception:
such virtual packages must have only one "provider", or else there
will be problems (IIRC) on dpkg, apt or ddbuild, if such dependency
is declared as first dependency [1].

I would prefer to create a real empty package:
default-mta (maybe in a source package debian-defaults), which depends
on exim.


BTW "mta" is IMHO wrong.  In most of the cases (IIRC) programs needs
only a "sendmail" program. Should we split the dependencies on real-mta and
only on a sendmail provider.

BTW we should also rule a minimal set of sendmail interface (which option should
be implemented). Actually every "MTA" has different sets of sendmail options,
but I don't yet know about problems.

ciao
cate




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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

John Goerzen  wrote:

> > The code that was taken by Debian for the fork WAS free but now it is no 
> > longer
> > because Debian did apply changes that are forbidden by law.
>
> When will you enumerate these?
>
> Until you do, I can't see your arguments being taken seriously by anyone.

As long as Debian hides related Bug reports and as long as Debian continues to 
publish slander against me and my software, I cannot see any will to change the 
current situation that is 100% a result of activities from some people that 
called themself "Debian maintainers".

Explaining the situation in more details, than I did in the open during the 
past 
years already, takes time. Please understand that I am not going to waste my 
time with trolls. Debian as whole did lose any credibility because of the 
cdrtools attacks that have been initated by Eduard Bloch and that have been 
supported by other Debian people. If you are seriously interested to change 
this situation, give me a strong sign that there is a will at Debian to get 
rid of the situation that has been created by Eduard Bloch by attacking me and 
my projects in 2004 .

As I mentioned already: the license change in cdrtools was a _reaction_ on the
attacks run by Eduard Bloch and others. The attacks from this person started in 
May 2004 as personal attacks and increased over time. I understand that in 
bigger associations there is a higher probability to also have bad people but
any assicoation needs to find ways to deal with problems that result from 
bad people's actions. 

Are aou interested to change this situation?

Jörg

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CC Attribution ShareALike (CC-by-sa) 3.0

[Norbert Preining]

Hi everyone,

it is quite hard to get definitive answer on the above license.
Interestingly the Debian wiki says that
In contrast to the CC-SA 2.0 license, version 3.0 is considered
to be compatible to the DFSG. 
and there are many discussions about the CC-BY-SA but no definitive
answer.

Does anyone know anything about that license?

Best wishes

Norbert

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bleans. Usherettes' torches are designed to produce between 2.5 and 4
bleans, enabling them to assist you in falling downstairs, treading on
people or putting your hand into a Neapolitan tub when reaching for
change.
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Enrico Zini]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:19:11AM +, Matthew Johnson wrote:

> Should Java libs be in lib or libdevel (they are both). This is one of
> the reasons we've wanted a Java section. 

I wouldn't mind a proper discussion on the pros and cons of both.
That'd help me for debtags as well, where java libs, but also perl,
python and ruby modules for example, fit both as development libraries
and as shared libraries.

My general idea is asking: "would you like it to be hidden in a package
manager as dependency-only stuff?"  If a library can be used as a
development library, then maybe not, therefore 'libdevel'.  But this is
a nontrivial argument that is worth of more discussion than just my
gut feelings.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Jean Parpaillon]

I am the psychotherapist.  Please, describe your problems.  Each time
you are finished talking, type RET twice.

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 11:03:55 Joerg Schilling, vous avez écrit :
> John Goerzen  wrote:
> > > The code that was taken by Debian for the fork WAS free but now it is
> > > no longer because Debian did apply changes that are forbidden by law.
> >
> > When will you enumerate these?
> >
> > Until you do, I can't see your arguments being taken seriously by anyone.
>
> As long as Debian hides related Bug reports and as long as Debian continues
> to publish slander against me and my software, I cannot see any will to
> change the current situation that is 100% a result of activities from some
> people that called themself "Debian maintainers".

Is it because is 100% a result of activities from some people that
called themself debian maintainers that you came to me?

>
> Explaining the situation in more details, than I did in the open during the
> past years already, takes time. Please understand that I am not going to
> waste my time with trolls. 

Does it bother you that you are not going to waste your time with
trolls?

> Debian as whole did lose any credibility because
> of the cdrtools attacks that have been initated by Eduard Bloch and that
> have been supported by other Debian people. 

Are you sure that is the real reason?

> If you are seriously interested
> to change this situation, give me a strong sign that there is a will at
> Debian to get rid of the situation that has been created by Eduard Bloch by
> attacking me and my projects in 2004 .

When did you first know that there is a will at debian to get rid of
the situation that has been created by eduard bloch by attacking you
and your projects in 2004?

>
> As I mentioned already: the license change in cdrtools was a _reaction_ on
> the attacks run by Eduard Bloch and others. 

Why do you say that?

> The attacks from this person
> started in May 2004 as personal attacks and increased over time.

Earlier you said is 100% a result of activities from some people that
called themself debian maintainers?

> I
> understand that in bigger associations there is a higher probability to
> also have bad people but any assicoation needs to find ways to deal with
> problems that result from bad people's actions.

Is the fact that in bigger associations there is a higher probability
to also have bad people but any assicoation needs to find ways to deal
with problems that result from bad people's actions the real reason?
>
> Are aou interested to change this situation?
>

Maybe the cdrtools attacks that have been initated by eduard bloch and
that have been supported by other debian people have something to do
with this.

> Jörg
>
Can you elaborate on that?


> --
>  EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353
> Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)
>joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog:
> http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/
> ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[William Pitcock]

On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 15:47 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Before Eduard Bloch made insane modifications, the code was GPLv2 and legal.
> Now the cude is undistributable because of modifications in the fork
> that are incompatible with the Copyright law.
>  
> See my bug report from December 2006.
> 

Please provide a URL for this supposed bug report. I have spent the last
30 minutes datamining bugs.debian.org for it, and have found nothing
other than replies to other bug reports from you which mostly have to do
with whining.

William


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Freitag, 27. Februar 2009, Bastian Blank wrote:
> According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

Can you/anybody please explain how this is related to the sections?


regards,
Holger


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

"Benjamin M. A'Lee"  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:18:07AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > As you don't know what grants and what duties you have when dealing with 
> > free 
> > software, please try to inform yourself. You may get into trouble if you 
> > change
> > things that are forbidden by law.
> > 
> > Let me quote the license person from the board of directors from the 
> > OpenSource 
> > initiave:
> > 
> > No OpenSource license gives you all grants you need to change anything  
> > in the  source. If the authors or Copyright holders of a software like,
> > they may always sue you. If you like to avoid being sued, play nicely
> > with the Copyright holders.
>
> Uh, citation needed. "Giving you all grants you need to change anything
> in the source" is practically the definition of an open-source licence,
> with the exception of removing the original copyright and licence
> notices.

I recommend you to read the Copyright law:

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/index.html

There are rights that _cannot_ be given away.

Jörg

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Benjamin M. A'Lee]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:40:45AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> "Benjamin M. A'Lee"  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:18:07AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > > As you don't know what grants and what duties you have when dealing with 
> > > free 
> > > software, please try to inform yourself. You may get into trouble if you 
> > > change
> > > things that are forbidden by law.
> > > 
> > > Let me quote the license person from the board of directors from the 
> > > OpenSource 
> > > initiave:
> > > 
> > >   No OpenSource license gives you all grants you need to change anything  
> > >   in the  source. If the authors or Copyright holders of a software like,
> > >   they may always sue you. If you like to avoid being sued, play nicely
> > >   with the Copyright holders.
> >
> > Uh, citation needed. "Giving you all grants you need to change anything
> > in the source" is practically the definition of an open-source licence,
> > with the exception of removing the original copyright and licence
> > notices.
> 
> I recommend you to read the Copyright law:
> 
> http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/index.html
> 
> There are rights that _cannot_ be given away.

Which of these rights do you consider is being infringed?

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Enrico Zini]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

I propose 'oldlibs' to be renamed to 'deprecated'.

That would also fit, for example, packages abandoned upstream, or
packages that have a better alternative, but that still have users.

It will also provide a path for planning removals of packages from the
archive, when the maintainer is still ok with maintaining a package and
fixing its bugs, but in his/her long term plan the package should
eventually go away.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Ben Finney]

Josselin Mouette  writes:

> Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 12:58 +0100, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl a
> écrit :
> > Please, not again. The arguments have been exchanged ad invinitum
> > a couple of times already. So if there is nothing new to bring up,
> > please don't restart the discussion.
> 
> Why? It’s quite funny to discuss with Joerg Schilling.

No, it's not. It is juvenile, and if it doesn't constructively advance
the discussion, needlessly inflames hostile sentiment.

> I prefer to do it in private, but it is good to have some of the
> discussions in public: I believe it strengthens the project by
> giving developers a common target, instead of hurting each other in
> internal fights.

I disagree completely. It weakens the project, by encouraging puerile
behaviour no better than poking an anthill. To remain strong, a
community needs to deprecate such behaviour, not encourage it.

Far better to keep those discussions outside the context of a Debian
discussion forum, if they need to happen at all, instead of playing
games that require attacks upon others. Please stop making the
situation worse.

If you want a way for people to let off steam, find a way to do it
that doesn't involve treating anyone as a “target”.

-- 
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  `\   or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” —Arthur C. Clarke, |
_o__) 1999 |
Ben Finney


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Dave Holland]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:13:07AM +, Matthew Johnson wrote:
> localization is the spelling given by the OED, so it is correct in all
> locales. It doesn't even list localisation as an alternative spelling.

The OED lists plenty of examples of "localisation" and "localise";
whether you consider the usage right or wrong, it's certainly
widespread. Cue the argument over a dictionary's role as describing or
prescribing use of language...

I couldn't care less, but "language-packs" would indeed avoid the whole
argument.

Dave (en_GB)


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 01:19 +, Sam Morris a écrit :
> > I don’t like the name either, but can you think of a better one? We
> > could use “mono”, but it’s the implementation name.
> 
> 'clr' (common language runtime)? It's the acronym that MS uses quite a 
> bit.

CLR is the acronym for the interpreter, while CLI covers the whole
thing.

> Or 'msclr'? 'dotnetclr'?

I don’t like the idea of naming the section after another
implementation.

We could use 'cli-mono', or 'ecma-cli'.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luca Capello]

Hi there!

Cc:ing the Debian Common Lisp mailing list.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:02:03 +0100, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> Joerg Jaspert  writes:
>> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
>> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.
[...]
> cl-*

FYI, as Aaron already showed with his list, ome packages (especially the
"non-library" ones) do not have the cl-* suffix.  StumpWM is missing,
for example.

> *-el

There are some packages which have something after the -el suffix:

  iiimf-client-el-bin - Utility of IIIMF frontend for Emacs
  speechd-el-doc-cs - speechd-el documentation in Czech
  w3-el-e21 - Web browser for GNU Emacs 21
  w3m-el-snapshot - simple Emacs interface of w3m (development version)

However, we cannot add the *-el-* filter because this will also match
false positives, at least:

  libcommons-el-java - Implementation of the JSP2.0 Expression Language 
interpreter
  myspell-el-gr - Greek (el_GR) dictionary for myspell

And there is at least one package which is still missing:

  w3-url-e21 - URL library for use by w3-el-e21

> BTW, while compiling that list, I also ran across a couple more
> httpds: araneida and hunchentoot.

With my Common Lisp maintainer hat on, I am not sure I would like
araneida and hunchentoot to be placed in the httpd section.  As Joerg
already said in the thread, I think we need to define if the language
the program is written in is more important than the function of the
program itself.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Norbert Preining]

On Fr, 27 Feb 2009, Ben Finney wrote:
> that doesn't involve treating anyone as a “target”.

It's not "anyone", it is simply "one", and that "one" is making himself
anyway prime target with openly declaring all Linux developers as
completely incompetent programmers, and he (who has never written an
operating system, although contributing to Solaris) is the only one with
ideas on how everything should be.

Come on, that *is* a good target, even of higher interest. This guy
should be brought either down to reality, or to a  (uups I don't
utter it here or I will get sooo many flames).

Best wishes

Norbert

---
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Debian Developer  Debian TeX Group
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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

William Pitcock  wrote:

> > > > The fork distributed by Debian may however be called dubious:
> > > > 
> > > > -   The fork is in conflict with the Copyright law and thus may not 
> > > > be 
> > > > legally distributed.
> > >
> > > If your code was Free Software, then it is perfectly legal for Debian to
> > > do what it does.
> > 
> > It seems that you first need to learn what Free Software means and what 
> > constraints the License and the Copyright law enforce. A Free software 
> > license
> > allows you to do many things, it does definitely not allow you what Debian 
> > did.
>
> While I personally do not use wodim, simply because wodim does not
> inspire much confidence with me being based on cdrecord, I have a few
> observations:
>
> 1. If your code was licensed correctly, and there wasn't concerns about
> it's quality, then nobody inside Debian would have forked it.

This is an asumption that is only true in a "nice world". Unfortunately, there
are some "Debian maintainers" that rather attack software authors instead of 
colaborating.

wodim has been created by Eduard Bloch because he is a person who is interested 
in actively preventing collaboration.

The attacks run by him started in May 2004 and at that time he did already 
create broken (buy him) versions of cdrecord and shipped them as Debian package.


> 2. I am not convinced that there is any legal issue with the fork of
> cdrecord as wodim; it is clearly identified that it is a fork, and

There definitely _is_ a major legal problem with the fork.

Jörg

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[William Pitcock]

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 11:56 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> William Pitcock  wrote:
> 
> > > > > The fork distributed by Debian may however be called dubious:
> > > > > 
> > > > > - The fork is in conflict with the Copyright law and thus may not 
> > > > > be 
> > > > >   legally distributed.
> > > >
> > > > If your code was Free Software, then it is perfectly legal for Debian to
> > > > do what it does.
> > > 
> > > It seems that you first need to learn what Free Software means and what 
> > > constraints the License and the Copyright law enforce. A Free software 
> > > license
> > > allows you to do many things, it does definitely not allow you what 
> > > Debian did.
> >
> > While I personally do not use wodim, simply because wodim does not
> > inspire much confidence with me being based on cdrecord, I have a few
> > observations:
> >
> > 1. If your code was licensed correctly, and there wasn't concerns about
> > it's quality, then nobody inside Debian would have forked it.
> 
> This is an asumption that is only true in a "nice world". Unfortunately, there
> are some "Debian maintainers" that rather attack software authors instead of 
> colaborating.

It is impossible to collaborate when you add invariant sections to the
code. Well done.

Generally it is considered to be bad taste when you change the licensing
rules abruptly.

> 
> wodim has been created by Eduard Bloch because he is a person who is 
> interested 
> in actively preventing collaboration.
> 

I am sorry that you are hurt about that, but get over it.

> The attacks run by him started in May 2004 and at that time he did already 
> create broken (buy him) versions of cdrecord and shipped them as Debian 
> package.
> 
> 
> > 2. I am not convinced that there is any legal issue with the fork of
> > cdrecord as wodim; it is clearly identified that it is a fork, and
> 
> There definitely _is_ a major legal problem with the fork.

I have a solution that I think will make us all happy.

Why not just get rid of cdrkit and write some nice wrappers for cdrecord
and other components of cdrtools using libburn/libisofs. That way we get
a CD/DVD/BD burning engine that isn't originated from *you*, so *you*
can't complain about it anymore.

If cdrkit is as buggy as you claim, and you are so busy trolling, then I
feel that we cannot hold confidence in your product either. Good job on
that.

After all, if we aren't using your code or any derivative of your code,
then you have no reason to complain at us.

William


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 09:03 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
> packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
> but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.

I’m not sure for the section name, but here is a list of matches:
monodoc*
monodevelop*
mono-*
libmono*
*-mono
*-cil (except cl-cil which goes to lisp)
*-cil-*
cli-*
*-sharp2*

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[William Pitcock]

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 12:26 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> William Pitcock  wrote:
> 
> > > are some "Debian maintainers" that rather attack software authors instead 
> > > of 
> > > colaborating.
> >
> > It is impossible to collaborate when you add invariant sections to the
> > code. Well done.
> 
> This is a text that has been created in collaboration a former Debian 
> maintainer.
> 

So what?

> 
> > Generally it is considered to be bad taste when you change the licensing
> > rules abruptly.
> 
> It is generally considered bad taste to offend and to try to blackmail the 
> Copyright holder. As this has been done by the Debian package maintainer, 
> Debian should not complain. Note that the license change was caused by 
> attacks from a Debian maintainer and that the license change that was done 
> in an agreement with the other authors.

What does Eduard being a Debian maintainer have to do with it? Also,
ISTR Eduard no longer being involved in Debian at all, or cdrkit.

William


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Roger Leigh]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:56:38AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> William Pitcock  wrote:
> 
> > 2. I am not convinced that there is any legal issue with the fork of
> > cdrecord as wodim; it is clearly identified that it is a fork, and
> 
> There definitely _is_ a major legal problem with the fork.

Please provide specific details, rather than vaguely defined "major
problems".

Are we talking about copyright infringement, licence infringement, or
what?

Which lines in which files?

Your current "SCO" approach is not productive.


Thanks,
Roger

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 10:57 +, Benjamin M. A'Lee a écrit :
> > http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/index.html
> > 
> > There are rights that _cannot_ be given away.
> 
> Which of these rights do you consider is being infringed?

He’s talking about moral rights, which exist in several Europe
countries. They include:
  * the right to get the work back and ask everyone using it to stop
doing so, with the condition to indemnify them for the losses
(in France, this right does not apply to software, and IIRC this
is the same in Germany);
  * the right to oppose a modification of the work - for Software,
this does only apply to modifications affecting the honor or
reputation of the author.

This is the latter right that Jörg Schilling is trying to apply. But for
that he needs to show how the modifications affect his honor or
reputation.

So far, the only things affecting JS’s honor and reputation are the
emails he sent, so I think we’re pretty safe on this topic.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Roger Leigh]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:53:04AM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) 
wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 26-02-2009 23:10, Darren Salt wrote:
> > I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...
> >> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> [...]
> >>> The new sections are:
> >>> localisationsLanguage packs
> 
> >> I'd prefer "localization".
> 
> > Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...
> 
>   What about using 'l10n'?  It tends to be well know these days, and
> would avoid the s|z problem. :-)

The terms i18n and l10n might be well known amongst developers, but I
contend that most users won't know (or should need to know) arcane
abbreviations when we could use the full word.


Regards,
Roger

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

William Pitcock  wrote:

> > are some "Debian maintainers" that rather attack software authors instead 
> > of 
> > colaborating.
>
> It is impossible to collaborate when you add invariant sections to the
> code. Well done.

This is a text that has been created in collaboration a former Debian 
maintainer.


> Generally it is considered to be bad taste when you change the licensing
> rules abruptly.

It is generally considered bad taste to offend and to try to blackmail the 
Copyright holder. As this has been done by the Debian package maintainer, 
Debian should not complain. Note that the license change was caused by 
attacks from a Debian maintainer and that the license change that was done 
in an agreement with the other authors.

Jörg

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Making some tags mandatory

[Enrico Zini]

[if help is needed with following the proposal below: a list of tags and
 their description can be found at:
  * http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/tags/vocabulary.gz
  * /var/lib/debtags/vocabulary (if you have debtags installed)
  * http://packages.debian.org/about/debtags (formatted on the web)
 and can be searched with 'debtags tagsearch' or using the tag editor
 at http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/edit.html in the 'all' and
 'search' views]

Hello,

The way I see it, the last thread on sections has opened a bit of a can
of worms: now first everyone will want a section for their favourite
topic, then there is going to be a fight on which one to pick in case
packages that could belong to more than one section.  Been there, done
that :)

While I see a list of well defined sections that could still make a lot
of sense and carry a very practical meaning (namely, libs, libdevel,
deprecated (former oldlibs), debug, locale, kernel and data (for
foo-data packages)), other sections are clearly minor and belong
elsewhere (like the programming language for a library).

You said that debtags cannot yet replace sections because it is not
assured that all packages have tags: you have a point. Let's take care
of it.

I say that with the number of tags in the vocabulary approacing 600, we
just can't ask maintainer, ftp-masters, or anyone really, to know all of
them; but I can certainly come up with a 'core' list of tags that are
well defined enough, and that we can safely expect maintainers to know
about.

This is what I have to offer:


 * The proposal

At the end of this mail is the list that I propose: it's 138 of them,
but grouped as they are, they should be quite clear to grasp.  I
consider these groups of tags (debtags calls them facets) to be mature
and uncontroversial enough to be made official and to ask maintaners to
take care of them.

Besides proposing the tags, I offer to implement these three features
within a month from when we agree on a way for maintainers to add them
to the control file:

 - For packages with no tags in the control file, take the tags from the
   review tag set as we have now
 - For packages with tags in the control file, take tags in facets
   {role, implemented-in, devel, interface, uitoolkit, accessibility,
   admin} from the control file, and all the other facets from the
   reviewed tag set.
 - Provide a way for maintainers to show differences between the tags in
   their control file and the submissions on the debtags web interface,
   to be used as a sort of hint

I also offer to write lintian tests to ensure some consistency (role::*
must be there, implemented-in::* must be there if role::program is
there, and so on).

Note that this proposal can be implemented right now, as it introduces
new functionality without interfering with the existing one.


 * Future developments

In the future more groups of tags can become 'core', after a round of
discussion, polishing, and testing.  This discussion and polishing can
be done in the debtags side, without bothering/boring ftp-masters.

Tags first in the line to become core could be, for example, game::*,
hardware::*, mail::*, web::*, x11::*.

Some other groups of tags (biology::*, field::*, junior::*, made-of::*,
protocol::*, scope::*, suite::* and more) are probably better left to be
managed by groups of field experts.  The gnome/kde team is probably
better than any single maintainer in deciding what should have the
suite::gnome/kde tag.  Similarly, debian-med or debian-science people
can be called to have a say on tags of their interest.

Also, some tags like those in use::* or work-with::* are better assigned
the other way round, with people picking one tag and working to make
sure that the list of packages with that tag makes sense.

I am happy to come up with a workflow that allows such groups to have
the final say on their tags, and get the result integrated with the
rest: there are already several items in my todo-list that go in this
direction.  Maybe, even if game maintainers will easily be able to pick
a game::* tag, we will even decide that it will make more sense, for
consistency, that game::* tags will be managed by the Debian Games team.

But this is for the future.  For now, let's stick to the short term
proposal.


 * The list

Role of the package in the archive (mandatory for all packages):

  role::app-data - Application Data
  role::data - Standalone Data
  role::debug-symbols - Debugging symbols
  role::devel-lib - Development Library
  role::documentation - Documentation
  role::dummy - Dummy Package
  role::kernel - Kernel and Modules
  role::metapackage - Metapackage
  role::plugin - Plugin
  role::program - Program
  role::shared-lib - Shared Library
  role::source - Source Code

Language that the package is implemented in (mandatory for all packages
mostly consisting of software):

  implemented-in::ada - Ada
  implemented-in::c - C
  implemented-in::c++ - C++
  implemented-in::c-sharp - C#
  implemented-in::e

Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Frans Pop]

Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

The sections are defined in the override files [1], which are per 
codename. Special case is current testing (i.e. squueze), for which the 
overrides are always kept the same as sid.

I assume the proposed changes would only affect sid + squeeze, not sarge 
and lenny.

So you probably do have to worry about lennynhalf as that will introduce 
new packages which should go in the current sections. So either they will 
need to have the correct "old" sections in the control file, or the FTP 
masters will have to correct them in the overrides file for lenny during 
NEW processing.

For existing packages that are uploaded to stable (p-u) with a wrong 
section by accident there is no problem as the existing overrides for 
lenny would correct that automatically.

Cheers,
FJP

/me hopes he's got all that right :-)

[1] See: merkel:/org/ftp.debian.org/scripts/override


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

William Pitcock  wrote:

> > > Generally it is considered to be bad taste when you change the licensing
> > > rules abruptly.
> > 
> > It is generally considered bad taste to offend and to try to blackmail the 
> > Copyright holder. As this has been done by the Debian package maintainer, 
> > Debian should not complain. Note that the license change was caused by 
> > attacks from a Debian maintainer and that the license change that was done 
> > in an agreement with the other authors.
>
> What does Eduard being a Debian maintainer have to do with it? Also,
> ISTR Eduard no longer being involved in Debian at all, or cdrkit.

Then it seems the right time for Debian to excuse for what Mr. Bloch did under 
the name of Debian and to start to collaborate again as usual before he 
appeared at Debian.


Jörg

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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

Roger Leigh  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:56:38AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > William Pitcock  wrote:
> > 
> > > 2. I am not convinced that there is any legal issue with the fork of
> > > cdrecord as wodim; it is clearly identified that it is a fork, and
> > 
> > There definitely _is_ a major legal problem with the fork.
>
> Please provide specific details, rather than vaguely defined "major
> problems".

Read the related entry in the Debian bugtracking system before asking me for 
details.


Jörg

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who killed bambi?

[Holger Levsen]

flaming, trolling and shitting on -devel is not useful for the general 
audience, even is some people think it is.

/me fully agrees with <874oygdu1r@benfinney.id.au>


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:04:36AM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
> FYI, as Aaron already showed with his list, ome packages (especially the
> "non-library" ones) do not have the cl-* suffix.  StumpWM is missing,
> for example.

Note that the current language-oriented sections (python, perl, and
the just proposed ocaml and ruby) are meant to contain stuff related
to "develop" in that language. They are not meant to contain
everything implemented in a given language.

While it is quite clear that we are rapidly approaching the inherent
problem of sections (i.e., they cannot be orthogonal), I believe that
the above rule is quite agreed upon.

Hence, IMHO, StumpWM should be in a section related to X11 or window
managers, not in "lisp".

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 12:37 +0100, Joerg Schilling a écrit :
> Then it seems the right time for Debian to excuse for what Mr. Bloch did 
> under 
> the name of Debian and to start to collaborate again as usual before he 
> appeared at Debian.

Change your license, and maybe we’ll be able to think of collaborating.

As for excuses, I guess we could be fine with excuses from you for all
the shit you said about Debian for the last years.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
  `-me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.


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Re: Making some tags mandatory

[Mark Brown]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:48:30AM +, Enrico Zini wrote:

>  - For packages with no tags in the control file, take the tags from the
>review tag set as we have now

Are packages supposed to do this?  If they are it'd probably be worth
announcing more generally to let people know it's OK to do this.

-- 
"You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever."


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Michael Tautschnig]

> Bastian Blank wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> > that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> > lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?
> 
> The sections are defined in the override files [1], which are per 
> codename. Special case is current testing (i.e. squueze), for which the 
> overrides are always kept the same as sid.
> 
> I assume the proposed changes would only affect sid + squeeze, not sarge 
> and lenny.
> 
> So you probably do have to worry about lennynhalf as that will introduce 
> new packages which should go in the current sections. So either they will 
> need to have the correct "old" sections in the control file, or the FTP 
> masters will have to correct them in the overrides file for lenny during 
> NEW processing.
> 

[...]

Seeing that the change of sections could pose some technical problems (not only
challenges implementing them) as well, let me ask one (possibly stupid)
question: Why do we need sections at all?

All that policy states is that it simplifies some handling of packages. If it's
about partitioning the archive into manageable components (some algorithm
traversing each component linearly or whatever), why not just group them by
source package names, as already done in other situations?

Thanks a lot,
Michael



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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Josselin Mouette]

Note: you still haven’t fixed your email client. 

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 13:34 +0100, Joerg Schilling a écrit :
> Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> 
> > Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 12:37 +0100, Joerg Schilling a écrit :
> > > Then it seems the right time for Debian to excuse for what Mr. Bloch did 
> > > under 
> > > the name of Debian and to start to collaborate again as usual before he 
> > > appeared at Debian.
> >
> > Change your license, and maybe we???ll be able to think of collaborating.
> 
> You seem to be unable for collaboration as you try to blackmail me.

Maybe you should buy yourself an English dictionary. Since you don’t
seem to understand this word, the German word for it is “Erpressung”.
This is a serious accusation, and it has nothing to do with imposing
conditions (Vorbedingung) or negotiation (Verhandlung).

For example, if you go to a butcher’s, you can have a steak, but you
won’t have it until you pay. That’s not blackmailing. The butcher is not
forcing you to pay: you can just go away without a steak and that’s all.

The same goes for Debian. You can collaborate with us, but only about
software that’s released under a free licensing scheme. If you don’t
want that, you can go piss away some other people, and we won’t care.
That’s all.

-- 
 .''`.  Debian 5.0 "Lenny" has been released!
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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[William Pitcock]

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 12:38 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Roger Leigh  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:56:38AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > > William Pitcock  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 2. I am not convinced that there is any legal issue with the fork of
> > > > cdrecord as wodim; it is clearly identified that it is a fork, and
> > > 
> > > There definitely _is_ a major legal problem with the fork.
> >
> > Please provide specific details, rather than vaguely defined "major
> > problems".
> 
> Read the related entry in the Debian bugtracking system before asking me for 
> details.
> 

Can you provide a URL to this entry? I have still yet to find it.

William


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

Josselin Mouette  wrote:

> Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 12:37 +0100, Joerg Schilling a écrit :
> > Then it seems the right time for Debian to excuse for what Mr. Bloch did 
> > under 
> > the name of Debian and to start to collaborate again as usual before he 
> > appeared at Debian.
>
> Change your license, and maybe we???ll be able to think of collaborating.

You seem to be unable for collaboration as you try to blackmail me.

Have a nice day and try to steal other people's time.


Jörg

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Re: Proposal to improve package configuration upgrades

[Dominique Dumont]

Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:
> I can agree, at least in theory. But as we all known, due to how
> source code tends to work, in 90% of the cases automatic merges do the
> right thing. Well, of course I cannot prove that number, but my
> personal feelings is that with a "high confidence" automatic merges do
> the right thing.

I think your numbers are right. The main problem I see is that the
automatic merge will not be able to inform the user whether the merge
is correct or not. In case of merge failure, the application will exit
on error and leave the average user in the dark. Even 10% of this kinf
of failure will be badly perceived.

> You know, in the general case it is an undecidable problem, so I
> seriously doubt Config::Model can be the silver bullet. 

It's not as I already know that Config::Model cannot address *all*
config files. 

> Possibly you can get a good coverage of most of the files we have
> under /etc which have a trivial structure (hence the questions
> raised by other people: how many of those files in a typical
> installation you can cover?).

Potentially, I'd say 90% of the files (very ballpark figure). But the
configuration files need to be created. Config::Model is designed to
reduce the work (and maintenance) work as the model are specifed in a
data structure. This data structure can be created and maintained with
a GUI (Config::Model::Itself).

> But then we are back at the issue of a 80-20 problem, and I see the
> VCS solution as more flexible and more readily available.

Agreed. But VCS solution is a 80% success/20% silent
failure. Config::Model is a 80% success/20% abort. The latter should
be easier to deal with for average user.

> But again, it looks to me that the two approaches can coexist.

Absolutely: Something like try Config::Model, if it fails (missing or
incomplete model) may be VCS merge with mandatory user interaction or
usual ucf question.

> ... now it is only the two of us which needs to stop talking and
> start proposing patches as needed :-)

:-) 

For this I need a candidate package with a package maintainer willing
to experiment the patch I might send... 


All the best

-- 
Dominique Dumont 
"Delivering successful solutions requires giving people what they
need, not what they want." Kurt Bittner

irc:
  domidumont at irc.freenode.net
  ddumont at irc.debian.org


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luca Capello]

Hi Stefano!

Cc:ing again the Debian Common Lisp mailing list, please keep it!

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:02:59 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:04:36AM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
>> FYI, as Aaron already showed with his list, ome packages (especially the
>> "non-library" ones) do not have the cl-* suffix.  StumpWM is missing,
>> for example.
>
> Note that the current language-oriented sections (python, perl, and
> the just proposed ocaml and ruby) are meant to contain stuff related
> to "develop" in that language. They are not meant to contain
> everything implemented in a given language.

While I agree, this could pose a major problem for e.g. compilers: CLISP
(or any other CL compiler) is used to "develop" CL applications *and* to
start them.

NB, you can create a CL "executable", but this will be a "snapshot" of
the compiler, i.e. you start the compiler, then load your application
and finally save the status as an image, which can then be loaded as a
stand-alone "executable".  However, some CL compilers (e.g. GCL and ECL)
can produce real executables.

> While it is quite clear that we are rapidly approaching the inherent
> problem of sections (i.e., they cannot be orthogonal), I believe that
> the above rule is quite agreed upon.
>
> Hence, IMHO, StumpWM should be in a section related to X11 or window
> managers, not in "lisp".

As far as this is the general case, I am fine as well.  It is just that
I would like to avoid some applications in one section and some in the
other.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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RFH: cheese

[Josselin Mouette]

Hi,

the GNOME team is currently maintaining cheese, a program to take shots
from a webcam. However, while we have no particular trouble to maintain
it (it’s a small package), none of the maintainers currently owns a
webcam.

Therefore, it would be nice if someone with a webcam could give us a
hand with the bug reports and the interaction with the GStreamer video
input.

Thanks,
-- 
 .''`.  Debian 5.0 "Lenny" has been released!
: :' :
`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
  `-me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
> packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
> but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.

I would suggest "c-sharp" for the section.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: RFH: cheese

[jim . sublette]

I have a laptop with a webcam and would be willing to assist.
What version would i need to run. I am currently using lenny. I am willing  
to upgrade to a newer version.
What documents would I need to familiarize myself with to be able to  
assist. I am not a Debian Developer. But I am a UNIX admin. So, I have some  
knowledge.


On Feb 27, 2009 7:19am, Josselin Mouette  wrote:

Hi,





the GNOME team is currently maintaining cheese, a program to take shots



from a webcam. However, while we have no particular trouble to maintain



it (it’sa small package), none of the maintainers currently owns a



webcam.





Therefore, it would be nice if someone with a webcam could give us a



hand with the bug reports and the interaction with the GStreamer video



input.





Thanks,



--



.''`. Debian 5.0 "Lenny" has been released!



: :' :



`. `' Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told



`- me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.

Re: RFH: cheese

[Kartik Mistry]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> the GNOME team is currently maintaining cheese, a program to take shots
> from a webcam. However, while we have no particular trouble to maintain
> it (it’s a small package), none of the maintainers currently owns a
> webcam.

I will be happy to help in any debugging, testing etc team wants. I
love this program cheese - it saves me to boot into Mac OS, only for
taking photos.

-- 
 Cheers,
 Kartik Mistry | 0xD1028C8D | IRC: kart_
 Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 Blog.en: ftbfs.wordpress.com
 Blog.gu: kartikm.wordpress.com


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Re: CC Attribution ShareALike (CC-by-sa) 3.0

[Cyril Brulebois]

Norbert Preining  (27/02/2009):
> it is quite hard to get definitive answer on the above license.
> Interestingly the Debian wiki says that
>   In contrast to the CC-SA 2.0 license, version 3.0 is considered
>   to be compatible to the DFSG. 
> and there are many discussions about the CC-BY-SA but no definitive
> answer.

ISTR (some of) -legal@ saying not DFSG-compliant, ftpmasters saying yes,
but that's only my (bad) memory.

> Does anyone know anything about that license?

Looking at the pool:
| k...@gluck:/org/lintian.debian.org/laboratory/source$ grep -i cc-by-sa 
*/debfiles/copyright
| botan/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA-2.5
| botan-devel/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA-2.5
| freedink-data/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA 3.0 Unported
| freedink-data/debfiles/copyright:License: GPLv3+ | Art Libre | CC-BY-SA
| freedink-data/debfiles/copyright:License: GPLv3+ | Art Libre | CC-BY-SA
| freedink-data/debfiles/copyright:License: GPLv3+ | Art Libre | CC-BY-SA
| freedink-data/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA
| gnuit/debfiles/copyright: "CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons 
Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 
| gnuit/debfiles/copyright: under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before 
August 1, 2009,
| grub2-splashimages/debfiles/copyright:Aesculus_hippocastanum_fruit.tga
Andrew Dunn [[:en:User:Solipsist]]CC-BY-SA-2.0
| grub2-splashimages/debfiles/copyright:Flower_jtca001.tga  
Sam Oth [[:c:User:World Trekker]] CC-BY-SA-2.5
| grub2-splashimages/debfiles/copyright:Plasma-lamp.tga 
Luc Viatour [[:c:User:Lviatour]]  GNU FDL >= 1.2 or 
CC-BY-SA 2.5, 2.0, and 1.0
| grub2-splashimages/debfiles/copyright:Sparkler.tga
Gabriel Pollard   CC-BY-SA 2.5
| grub2-splashimages/debfiles/copyright:License (CC-BY-SA 2.5):
| grub2-splashimages/debfiles/copyright:License (CC-BY-SA 2.0):
| libtasn1-3/debfiles/copyright:“CC-BY-SA” means the Creative Commons 
Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license
| libtasn1-3/debfiles/copyright:under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time 
before August 1, 2009, provided
| oxine/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA-2
| splint/debfiles/copyright:> (under which the splint software itself is 
licensed) or CC-BY-SA 3.0
| splint/debfiles/copyright:I hereby release that code under CC-BY-SA 3.0.
| splint/debfiles/copyright:post using CC-BY-SA 3.0. He on behalf of Duolog 
is okay with this, as am
| splint/debfiles/copyright:Please use the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license to license 
this post.
| splint/debfiles/copyright:which the splint software itself is licensed) 
or CC-BY-SA 3.0 (under
| terminator/debfiles/copyright:Cory Kontros - Produced our current icon 
under the CC-by-SA licence
| warzone2100/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA-3.0
| warzone2100/debfiles/copyright:License: CC-BY-SA-3.0
| wound-up/debfiles/copyright:> music licenced under the CC-by v2.0 (the game 
itself is CC-by-sa v3.0).

freedink-data having seen a single upload, there's no doubts its current
license has been approved by ftpmasters, and that it hasn't been altered
afterwards.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 14:33 +0100, Raphael Hertzog a écrit :
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
> > packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
> > but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.
> 
> I would suggest "c-sharp" for the section.

The CLI is not restricted to a single language support. How are you
going to classify IronPython or boo ?

-- 
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`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
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Bug#517404: ITP: polyorb -- The PolyORB schizophrenic middleware for Ada

[Reto Buerki]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Reto Buerki 


* Package name: polyorb
  Version : 2.4.0
  Upstream Author : li...@adacore.com
* URL : https://libre.adacore.com/polyorb/
* License : GMGPL
  Programming Lang: Ada
  Description : The PolyORB schizophrenic middleware for Ada

PolyORB is a general middleware technology for CORBA and other distributed
systems technologies.

More specifically, PolyORB provides a uniform solution to build distributed
applications relying either on middleware standards such as CORBA, the Ada
95 Distributed System Annex, SOAP, Web Services, or to implement application-
specific middleware.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 5.0
  APT prefers stable
  APT policy: (500, 'stable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)



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Re: Transition: krb5 to drop Kerberos IV (libkrb53 restructuring)

[Sam Hartman]

> "Steve" == Steve Langasek  writes:

Steve> Actually, I was meaning to comment on this.  Why would you
Steve> not simply point the shlibs at the component library
Steve> packages at this stage?  The only side effect is that the
Steve> version of krb5 that includes the split library packages
Steve> has to migrate to testing before anything else depending on
Steve> these packages can reach testing, but that's not terribly
Steve> onerous given that krb5's own migration to testing won't be
Steve> tangled up with other packages - this is already a very
Steve> "soft" transition, and I don't see the need for extra work
Steve> on the shlibs handling.

That was the only reason.  If it had worked easily it would have been
worth it.  

At this point I'll just keep on top of the package and do everything I
can to let it migrate to testing quickly.

--Sam


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Bjørn Mork]

Josselin Mouette  writes:
> Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 14:33 +0100, Raphael Hertzog a écrit :
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> > Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
>> > packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
>> > but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.
>> 
>> I would suggest "c-sharp" for the section.
>
> The CLI is not restricted to a single language support. How are you
> going to classify IronPython or boo ?

How about those knowing what Common Language Infrastructure is about,
trying to describe it in a somewhat less ambigious way than "cli"?

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLI

Can't speak for anyone else, but I would certainly think "command-line
interface" if I encountered a section named "cli".


Bjørn


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Joerg Schilling]

Josselin Mouette  wrote:

> Note: you still haven???t fixed your email client. 
>
> Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 13:34 +0100, Joerg Schilling a écrit :
> > Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> > 
> > > Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 12:37 +0100, Joerg Schilling a écrit :
> > > > Then it seems the right time for Debian to excuse for what Mr. Bloch 
> > > > did under 
> > > > the name of Debian and to start to collaborate again as usual before he 
> > > > appeared at Debian.
> > >
> > > Change your license, and maybe we???ll be able to think of collaborating.
> > 
> > You seem to be unable for collaboration as you try to blackmail me.
>
> Maybe you should buy yourself an English dictionary. Since you don???t
> seem to understand this word, the German word for it is ???Erpressung???.
> This is a serious accusation, and it has nothing to do with imposing
> conditions (Vorbedingung) or negotiation (Verhandlung).

It seems that you do not understant what freedom means - try to inform yourself
before popping up again.

Jörg

-- 
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   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily


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Re: CC Attribution ShareALike (CC-by-sa) 3.0

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Freitag, 27. Februar 2009, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> ISTR (some of) -legal@ saying not DFSG-compliant, 

some people on -legal will always disagree, what counts more is the (rough) 
consenus...

> ftpmasters saying yes, 

and ftpmaster, obviously :)

> Looking at the pool:

wow, I'm surprised to see 2.0 and 2.5 licences there. AFAIU (and I've read 
those licences...) and AFAIK, cc-by-sa 3.0 is fine for main, previous 
versions not. So I guess some bugs are in order to be filed... 


regards,
Holger


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Re: CC Attribution ShareALike (CC-by-sa) 3.0

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 15:46 +0100, Holger Levsen a écrit :
> wow, I'm surprised to see 2.0 and 2.5 licences there. AFAIU (and I've read 
> those licences...) and AFAIK, cc-by-sa 3.0 is fine for main, previous 
> versions not. So I guess some bugs are in order to be filed... 

Anyway, versions 2.0 and 2.5 allow relicensing to 3.0, so if we accept
3.0, the older versions are a non-issue.

-- 
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: :' :
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  `-me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.


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Re: CC Attribution ShareALike (CC-by-sa) 3.0

[Holger Levsen]

On Freitag, 27. Februar 2009, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Anyway, versions 2.0 and 2.5 allow relicensing to 3.0

By anyone?


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Re: CC Attribution ShareALike (CC-by-sa) 3.0

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 16:02 +0100, Holger Levsen a écrit :
> On Freitag, 27. Februar 2009, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > Anyway, versions 2.0 and 2.5 allow relicensing to 3.0
> 
> By anyone?

§4b :

You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or
publicly digitally perform a Derivative Work only under the
terms of this License, a later version of this License with the
same License Elements as this License, or a Creative Commons
iCommons license that contains the same License Elements as this
License (e.g. Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Japan).

Since a Debian package is clearly a derivative work, we can distribute
Debian packages of CC-BY-SA 2.0 software under CC-BY-SA 3.0.

-- 
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: :' :
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
>> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.
> According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

Sections are. The overrides not, which means stable/oldstable wont
change and keep whatever they have now. Otherwise it wouldnt be possible
to do a change, ever, when it would always affect stable.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Some AM after a mistake:
Sigh.  One shouldn't AM in the early AM, as it were.  


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Re: handling group membership in and outside d-i

[Arthur de Jong]

On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 13:01 +, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 08:31 +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> > This is of course broken.  It breaks granting console users access
> > to the netdev or powerdev groups through pam_groups, which is really
> > really annoying when you get your users from say ldap.
>
> But that's broken to start with, since you can't revoke group
> membership when the user logs out.

The group membership is only assigned to the process, not in the group
database. I generally have something like:

gdm; :*; *; Al-2400; audio,floppy,video,cdrom,scanner,plugdev,voice

in /etc/security/group.conf to ensure that any user that is logged in on
the console can do most things you can expect console users to do. So
for a gdm session:

% groups
users voice cdrom floppy audio src video plugdev scanner

But the NSS databases contain the following:

% groups arthur
arthur : users src

I've found that with lenny for some things (dbus?) you need consolekit
(I install policykit-gnome which has all the dependencies I need) to
accomplish (part of?) what you did with secondary groups before.

-- 
-- arthur - adej...@debian.org - http://people.debian.org/~adejong --


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Re: Proposal to improve package configuration upgrades

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 01:35:56PM +0100, Dominique Dumont wrote:
> I think your numbers are right. The main problem I see is that the
> automatic merge will not be able to inform the user whether the
> merge is correct or not. In case of merge failure, the application
> will exit on error and leave the average user in the dark. Even 10%
> of this kinf of failure will be badly perceived.

I agree with this argument, but I contend that it would be no
regression: currently, would the user know that after having chosen to
preserve the installed version of a conffile (instead of the
maintainer version) that configuration can be wrong wrt the new
version of the package being installed?

She wouldn't know, where is the difference?

(Yes, I know you are proposing an improvement over that situation, but
it is not for free, since it requires a per-conffile-kind
development. Mine is conffile-kind-independent and I believe it wont
introduce any regression.)

> > But then we are back at the issue of a 80-20 problem, and I see
> > the VCS solution as more flexible and more readily available.
> 
> Agreed. But VCS solution is a 80% success/20% silent
> failure. Config::Model is a 80% success/20% abort. The latter should
> be easier to deal with for average user.

With my former argument, that 20% of silent failures is possibly very
comparable with the silent failures enabled by the current status. I
stop before the temptation of repeating:

> > But again, it looks to me that the two approaches can coexist.
> 
> Absolutely: Something like try Config::Model, if it fails (missing
> or incomplete model) may be VCS merge with mandatory user
> interaction or usual ucf question.

:-)

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Kalle Kivimaa]

joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) writes:
> Josselin Mouette  wrote:
>> Change your license, and maybe we???ll be able to think of collaborating.
>
> You seem to be unable for collaboration as you try to blackmail me.

Stating a fact is not blackmail. As SFLC has determined that CDDL and
GPL are incompatible [1], Debian is unable to distribute any software
which contains code with those two licenses mixed in. If you wish for
the cdrtools to be included in Debian (or in any major Linux
distribution), you should fix that problem. This is nonnegotiable, as
we would be breaking the copyright law by distributing software for
which we have no license to do so.

If you feel that the SFLC's opinion is wrong, you are of course free
to provide us with competent legal advice countering SFLC's opinion.

[1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2009-February/000413.html

-- 
* Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P)  *
*   PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer   *


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Alberto Garcia]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 06:48:01AM -0600, William Pitcock wrote:

> > > > There definitely _is_ a major legal problem with the fork.
> > > Please provide specific details, rather than vaguely defined
> > > "major problems".
> > Read the related entry in the Debian bugtracking system before
> > asking me for details.
> Can you provide a URL to this entry? I have still yet to find it.

I have to say that for a person who doesn't know the exact details of
the fork, this thread is quite vague (especially for its size).

So I googled a bit. There's a bit of background here:

http://lwn.net/Articles/195167/

And the bug report is probably this one:

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=377109

Berto


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Yavor Doganov]

[BTW, the only proper spelling is "GNUstep" -- not "Gnustep" or
"GNUStep".]

Vincent Danjean wrote:
>   I maintain a page.app package.

You mean paje.app, I assume (innocent typo)?

> It is right it is a gnustep application (ie it uses the gnustep
> framwork). However, I never use the gnustep environment.

Well, GNUstep is not a desktop environment (unlike GNOME, KDE, Xfce,
etc.), so it is more or less correct that the proposed section title
says "GNUstep environment" and not "GNUstep desktop environment".
GNUstep is more than libraries (like GLib/GTK+), so it is basically
right to say "environment".

Whether gnumail.app (for example) belongs in the "gnustep" section
instead of the "mail" section is another question.  I think that
programs that have already specialized sections should remain there
(i.e. "science" for adun.app or "news" for lusernet.app).  OTOH,
having the GNUstep apps/bundles/tools in one section is a convenience
for the average user (I guess).

Current GNUstep upstream labels it as "development environment", and
it's very unlikely that GNUstep would become a desktop anytime soon
(contrary to the hopes of many GNUsteppers, unfo).  There is a desktop
based on it, however, Étoilé (http://etoileos.com).  The Debian
package is about to be updated after the current post-release
dust/morass settles down.

>   This is just to say that some *.app application are not tied to the
> gnustep environment (for example, I find correct that gnumeric is in the
> 'math' section and not in the 'gnome' section).

Right, you can run GNUstep apps under any window manager (well, in
theory, at least -- there are lots of WM-specific bugs and
limitations).  The same holds (to a much greater extent) for GNOME or
pure GTK+ apps or pretty much everything else.  I would consider it a
bug if I install (say) kmail on my GNUstep workstation and it doesn't
pull all the required dependencies and doesn't work correctly.


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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Bill Allombert]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:32:51AM +0100, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> BTW "mta" is IMHO wrong.  In most of the cases (IIRC) programs needs
> only a "sendmail" program. Should we split the dependencies on real-mta and
> only on a sendmail provider.
> 
> BTW we should also rule a minimal set of sendmail interface (which option 
> should
> be implemented). Actually every "MTA" has different sets of sendmail 
> options,
> but I don't yet know about problems.

Well there were some problems with popularity-contest, see bug #326593
IIRC for sending to both f...@example.com and b...@example.com: 
ssmtp allows
sendmail -oi f...@example.com,b...@example.com
  but not courrier-mta which want
sendmail -oi f...@example.com b...@example.com

Another issue for popularity-contest is that MTA that do not retry on
error do not provide much avantage over HTTP submission. However
popularity-contest does not need that the MTA listen on port 25.

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. 

Imagine a large red swirl here. 



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Re: Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:37:19AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:51:39PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:42:39PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > > But as this would hardcode exim4 as the default MTA for Debian in a number
> > > of packages, some better solutions have been proposed in
> > > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/05/msg00381.html with the best 
> > > choice appearantly being  <87ve1faria@frosties.localdomain> which 
> > > proposes that exim4 should provide default-mta, packages needing an MTA 
> > > should depend on default-mta | mail-transfer-agent and the other MTAs 
> > > should 
> > > provide mail-transfer-agent. Then, if we want to change the default, we 
> > > just 
> > > need to touch two packages.

> The referred post mentions an actual package rather than just a "provides:"
> field.

No, not the Message-Id that Holger referenced.

http://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/87ve1faria@frosties.localdomain

> It makes a difference.

Yes, it does; and that thread identified what the differences are that
should cause us to prefer a virtual package instead of a real one.

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/05/msg00390.html

> Assume that in squeeze, the default changes to exim5.  With an actual
> pseudopackage, someone having both lenny and squeeze (or unstable) in apt's
> sources will have default-mta either from lenny (->exim4) or from squeeze
> (->exim5).

> With mere "provides:" (a virtual package), you'd have a version of both
> exim4 and exim5 that provides default-mta.

And what problem do you believe the latter will cause, in practice?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Proposal to improve package configuration upgrades

[Harald Braumann]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:35:56 +0100
Dominique Dumont  wrote:

> Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:
> > But then we are back at the issue of a 80-20 problem, and I see the
> > VCS solution as more flexible and more readily available.
> 
> Agreed. But VCS solution is a 80% success/20% silent
> failure. Config::Model is a 80% success/20% abort. The latter should
> be easier to deal with for average user.

But you don't need to silently merge (and thus silently fail in some
cases). You can still ask the user about confirmation.

harry


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Alberto Garcia wrote:
> So I googled a bit. There's a bit of background here:
> 
> http://lwn.net/Articles/195167/
> 
> And the bug report is probably this one:
> 
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=377109

Which doesn't say anything more specific. It plays on the same level as this
thread here. And the only thing that will happen is that I run out of popcorn
and become fat.


-- 
 Bernd Zeimetz   Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 GPG Fingerprint: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Reinhard Tartler]

Kalle Kivimaa  writes:

> If you feel that the SFLC's opinion is wrong, you are of course free
> to provide us with competent legal advice countering SFLC's opinion.

opinions can only be proven right or wrong in court. It seems that Sun's
opinion is that the combination doesn't impose redistribution problems,
whereas SFLC's opinion differs. Debian's arguments pretty much match
SFLC's.

The main problem here is that Joerg seems to be more interested in
having proved that opinion wrong than in actually getting his software
packaged and distributed in Linux distributions.

-- 
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4


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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[George Danchev]

On Friday 27 February 2009 21:29:01 Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> Kalle Kivimaa  writes:
> > If you feel that the SFLC's opinion is wrong, you are of course free
> > to provide us with competent legal advice countering SFLC's opinion.
>
> opinions can only be proven right or wrong in court. It seems that Sun's
> opinion is that the combination doesn't impose redistribution problems,
> whereas SFLC's opinion differs. Debian's arguments pretty much match
> SFLC's.

OTOH, no court is able to prevent people to express their own opinion unless 
one lives in a regime jurisdiction.

> The main problem here is that Joerg seems to be more interested in
> having proved that opinion wrong than in actually getting his software
> packaged and distributed in Linux distributions.

This is not very interesting, since we can live without Joerg's software. I 
for one have been using cdrskin for more than 3 years now quite happily. By 
the way, any help in maintaining libburn/libisofs/libisoburn/cdrskin packages 
would be appreciated.

P.S. Btw, not that I care about JS, but what I'm *very* interested in is to 
hear the opinion of Fraunhofer when they read all the mailing list traffic 
genereated by their employee (OpenBSD's mailing lists included, since they 
have also been badly bombarded in the past by similar topics around star 
licensing "discussions").

-- 
pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 11674 March 1977, Edward Betts wrote:

> webfeed - RSS/Atom feed readers, aggregator and utilities

Not enough packages, can stay in web, especially as that gets rid of httpds.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 cron.daily time, unlocking: slave_NEW
 ftpbot: oh bugger off, slave_NEW isn't affected by dinstall :-)
 bugger off, sonst gibt es zoff!
 for the bilinguists


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> Have sense to inaugurate a section with all the R modules? Nowadays
> many of them are in "math".

> $ apt-cache search r- | grep "^r-" | wc - l
> 133

Thats ok, get me a good name and short description for it please.
"r" is not a good name, i think.

-- 
bye, Joerg
* wiggy just looking at gforge-inject output
 last year I could not run it for months and still not see any new users
 it just added 19 new users
 it's this bloody active new DAM we've managed to get.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> video
> mplayer*

That is already in.

> vswitch*

No hit for this match?!

-- 
bye, Joerg
 I've annoyed Ganneff enough with that package already, no
reason to top it off by a build-depend on emacs for writing control
files


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> You also want totem* and kaffeine*.

Done.

> *-dbg packages could go in their own section(s) (debug, or libdebug &
> appdebug?); otherwise, I think that they should remain with (the bulk of) the
> packages for which they provide debug data.

All debug packages will go in the debug section.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 I like shooting people
 er, wait
 that could be quoted out of context


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> Get me a short description for it.
> "Compiler, libraries, and tools for OCaml: a static typed ML language
> implementation supporting functional, imperative, and object-oriented
> programming styles".

You have an interesting definition of short, i stopped after : for
now. :)
(Its a different thing what packages.d.o will show later, for example,
but for me the part before the : is more than enough)

>> > The regex over binary package names would be "lib.*-ocaml.*",
>> > currently matching 160 binary packages in the APT database on my
>> > laptop (unstable + experimental).
>> ocaml
>> ocaml-*
>> lib*ocaml*
> Yup, of course I forgot the first pattern in the former post.
> Actually, you can add also "*-ocaml" which would match also
> "dh-ocaml", our debhelper-like tools for OCaml-related packages.

K.

-- 
bye, Joerg
AM: Whats the best way to find out if your debian/copyright is correct?
NM: Upload package into the NEW queue.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 11674 March 1977, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:

> As I mentioned directly to override-change before encountering this
> message, I'd argue that my goo package is a (somewhat exotic)
> candidate.  In general, here's a first cut at a full list, including
> it and your initial proposals:

Thanks.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 Joerg knuddeln ist wie mit Skorpionen schlafen.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
>> packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
>> but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.
> I’m not sure for the section name, but here is a list of matches:

Select one of cli-mono or ecma-cli and please also get me a short
description :)

> monodoc*
> monodevelop*
> mono-*
> libmono*
> *-mono
> *-cil (except cl-cil which goes to lisp)
> *-cil-*
> cli-*
> *-sharp2*

Taken.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 is there a tag for "won't be fixed until sarge+1"?
 depends whether the BTS is year 2037 compliant


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luciano Bello]

El Vie 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert escribió:
> Thats ok, get me a good name and short description for it please.
> "r" is not a good name, i think.

gnu-r ?
Everything about GNU R, an statistical computation and graphics system

luciano


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)]

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On 27-02-2009 08:41, Roger Leigh wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:53:04AM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) 
> wrote:
>> On 26-02-2009 23:10, Darren Salt wrote:
>>> I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...
 Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> [...]
> The new sections are:
> localisationsLanguage packs
 I'd prefer "localization".
>>> Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...
>>  What about using 'l10n'?  It tends to be well know these days, and
>> would avoid the s|z problem. :-)
> 
> The terms i18n and l10n might be well known amongst developers, but I
> contend that most users won't know (or should need to know) arcane
> abbreviations when we could use the full word.

Well, Debian has a lot of users that don't know English,
in this sense, some sections do not mean anything to them. I'm
not saying that we should translate it, but "knowing" the meaning
is quite relative under this point of view.

I do believe that users are getting used to see the terms
i18n/l10n, and if our users are able to find out what httpd and
vcs mean, I'm pretty sure they will survive l10n. :-)

Kind regards,
- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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Re: Making some tags mandatory

[Enrico Zini]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:12:48PM +, Mark Brown wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:48:30AM +, Enrico Zini wrote:
> 
> >  - For packages with no tags in the control file, take the tags from the
> >review tag set as we have now
> 
> Are packages supposed to do this?  If they are it'd probably be worth
> announcing more generally to let people know it's OK to do this.

Please note that it is a proposal.  At the moment, the main and the
suggested way to tag package is to go to
http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/todo.html or
http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/edit.html and follow the instructions.


Ciao,

Enrico

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Russ Allbery]

Michael Tautschnig  writes:

> Seeing that the change of sections could pose some technical problems
> (not only challenges implementing them) as well, let me ask one
> (possibly stupid) question: Why do we need sections at all?
>
> All that policy states is that it simplifies some handling of packages.

Off the top of my head: They section the display of packages in utilities
like aptitude, which I for one find extremely useful.  They let you easily
perform bulk operations on related packages, like marking all libraries as
autoinstalled or removing all debug packages.  They let you find the set
of available add-ons for a given programming language easily in both
searches and browsing when you're looking for something in particular.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Bug#517467: ITP: libstring-bufferstack-perl -- framework for storing nested buffers

[Antonio Radici]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Antonio Radici 


* Package name: libstring-bufferstack-perl
  Version : 1.12
  Upstream Author : Alex Vandiver 
* URL : http://search.cpan.org/dist/String-BufferStack/
* License : Artistic
  Programming Lang: Perl
  Description : framework for storing nested buffers

String::BufferStack provides some functions to store data into 
nested buffers
.
By default, all of the buffers flow directly to the output method, 
but individual levels of the stack can apply filters, or store their 
output in a scalar reference
.
The main consumers of this module are templating systems, like 
Template::Declare, which needs to manipulate nested buffes.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 5.0
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Darren Salt]

I demand that Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) may or may not have written...

[snip]
> I do believe that users are getting used to see the terms i18n/l10n, and if
> our users are able to find out what httpd and vcs mean, I'm pretty sure
> they will survive l10n. :-)

"Where's the t1g3r section?"

-- 
| Darren Salt| linux or ds at  | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Lobby friends, family, business, government.WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET.

Windows 98. Eats RAM and HD space for breakfast.


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Re: Desktop standards, MIME info cache, and Lintian

[Raphael Geissert]

Michael Biebl wrote:
[...]
> It's also a matter for what case we optimize:
> 
> For users running unstable, who constantly update, it might/will happen
> that the update-desktop-database trigger is activated although
> unnecessary.
> 
> For stable users, who only do distro upgrades, it might be quite some
> benefit,
> as instead of dozens of  update-desktop-database calls during the upgrade,
> you'd only get one.

Why not implement a system that maintainer scripts could use to tell dpkg
that a given script or 'not automagic trigger' is needed, that would only
be enabled when a package really needs it; but the operation would be done
just once.

Cheers,
Raphael Geissert



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Hello world,
> 
> We also plan on adding a number of new sections.

wanna-build will need to be change for this too, and will
probably break if you give it an unknown section.  Please
wait until the list is added to wanna-build.


Kurt


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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 09:46:15AM +0100, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
>> Given that m-t-a is mentioned explicitly in policy, and that "default-mta"
>> will be a virtual package, I think this should be recorded in policy as well
>> - though if a clear consensus emerges on debian-devel, there's no need to go
>> through the policy process before filing bugs.

> Hmmm. I partially agree, but then we have an unnecessary exception:
> such virtual packages must have only one "provider", or else there
> will be problems (IIRC) on dpkg, apt or ddbuild, if such dependency
> is declared as first dependency [1].

>From the definition of the virtual package in question, it should have only
one provider at a time.

The problems caused by having more than one provider of default-mta are the
same as those caused by depending on mail-transport-agent alone.  This is
not an argument against defining a default-mta virtual package, this is an
argument against having stupid bugs in the implementation.

> I would prefer to create a real empty package:
> default-mta (maybe in a source package debian-defaults), which depends
> on exim.

This unavoidably couples Debian's choice of a default MTA for users who
install the new release, to the behavior for users who are upgrading from a
previous release, because users who have such a 'default-mta' package
installed will find their MTA changed on dist-upgrade.

This was already discussed in the thread referenced by Holger.

> [1] policy 7.5 has only a note:
> : If you want to specify which of a set of real packages should be the 
> default to satisfy
> : a particular dependency on a virtual package, you should list the real 
> package as an
> : alternative before the virtual one.

> Probably we should be stricter.

Stricter about what?  There are lots of cases where it's useful to have only
one package at a time provide a virtual package, and to have other packages
reference that virtual package on its own (think build-dependencies).

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Ben Hutchings]

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 21:24 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> >> video
> > mplayer*
> 
> That is already in.
> 
> > vswitch*
> 
> No hit for this match?!

Holger probably meant dvswitch.  Which is in NEW, anyway.

Ben.



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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:32:51AM +0100, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
>> I would prefer to create a real empty package:
>> default-mta (maybe in a source package debian-defaults), which depends
>> on exim.

> BTW "mta" is IMHO wrong.  In most of the cases (IIRC) programs needs
> only a "sendmail" program. Should we split the dependencies on real-mta and
> only on a sendmail provider.

I think that's well out of scope for the current discussion.  This is the
definition of the 'mail-transport-agent' virtual package that's been used in
Debian for many years; I don't think it makes sense to change the virtual
package name because of a quibble over the proper definition of an "MTA".

> BTW we should also rule a minimal set of sendmail interface (which option
> should be implemented). Actually every "MTA" has different sets of
> sendmail options, but I don't yet know about problems.

In practice, we have the LSB definition of the interfaces that
/usr/sbin/sendmail have to support; all but one of the MTA packages in
Debian implement this interface (the odd duck is nullmailer, which
Conflicts: lsb for this reason...)

But perhaps that definition needs some help if popcon can't use it to
reliably send mail to multiple recipients?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org



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Re: Making some tags mandatory

[Ben Finney]

Enrico Zini  writes:

> At the end of this mail is the list that I propose: it's 138 of
> them, but grouped as they are, they should be quite clear to grasp.
> I consider these groups of tags (debtags calls them facets) to be
> mature and uncontroversial enough to be made official and to ask
> maintaners to take care of them.

I like this proposal, thank you for presenting it.

>  * The list
> 
> Role of the package in the archive (mandatory for all packages):
> 
>   role::app-data - Application Data
>   role::data - Standalone Data
>   role::debug-symbols - Debugging symbols
>   role::devel-lib - Development Library
>   role::documentation - Documentation
>   role::dummy - Dummy Package
>   role::kernel - Kernel and Modules
>   role::metapackage - Metapackage
>   role::plugin - Plugin
>   role::program - Program
>   role::shared-lib - Shared Library
>   role::source - Source Code
> 
> Language that the package is implemented in (mandatory for all
> packages mostly consisting of software):

Arguably, *all* digital information is software (as contrasted with
the hardware that contains it), so every Debian package consists
entirely of software.

Whether or not you agree with that, it would be best for this proposal
if the set of packages for which “foo is mandatory” were clearly
deliniated:

Language(s) that the package is implemented in. Mandatory for all
packages mostly consisting of programs or program components
(role::debug-symbols, role::devel-lib, role::kernel, role::plugin,
role::program, role::shared-lib, role::source).

That is, the determination of whether an ‘implemented-in’ facet is
mandatory is whether the package has one of the enumerated tags from
the ‘role’ facet. (If that set of tags is wrong, feel free to correct
it of course.)

> User interface (mandatory for all packages mostly consisting of
> software):

Likewise:

User interface(s) for the programs in the package. Mandatory for
all packages mostly consisting of executable programs
(role::plugin, role::program).

-- 
 \   “I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I |
  `\consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no |
_o__)  superhuman authority behind it.” —Albert Einstein, letter, 1953 |
Ben Finney


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Re: Hosting the Debian/kCygwin port?

[David Given]

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Sjors Gielen wrote:
[...]
> I'm working on a project porting the Debian tools to Cygwin.

Yes, yes, I know I'm replying to a post over a month old. Nevertheless,
I recently found something that's relevant:

http://debian-interix.net/

This is a Debian port on top of Interix, a.k.a. Microsoft Services for
Unix, the unix-alike that runs on the NT kernel. Unlike Cygwin it
doesn't go through the win32 layer and so doesn't need all the emulation
layers, which gives it (allegedly) much better I/O throughput, proper
case sensitive filenames, inode semantics, etc.

While installation is still a bit tortuous, they have a buildd and claim
to support a decent number of packages...

Is this of interest to anyone?

- --
David Given
d...@cowlark.com
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Bug#508644: mass bugfiling (against 8 packages) and/or new package default-mta

[Russ Allbery]

Steve Langasek  writes:

> In practice, we have the LSB definition of the interfaces that
> /usr/sbin/sendmail have to support; all but one of the MTA packages in
> Debian implement this interface (the odd duck is nullmailer, which
> Conflicts: lsb for this reason...)
>
> But perhaps that definition needs some help if popcon can't use it to
> reliably send mail to multiple recipients?

Listing multiple addresses separated by commas feels like a sendmailism to
me.  I'm surprised that doesn't break with lots of other MTAs.  The
general interface is addresses separated by spaces, which is also the
documented sendmail command-line interface.  (The sendmail man page
represents the syntax as "[ address ... ]".)

I think this was just a bug in popularity-contest that happened to go
unnoticed since sendmail runs command-line arguments through the same
parser that it applies to To: headers.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   



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Re: DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

[Gunnar Wolf]

Jimmy Kaplowitz dijo [Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 02:31:24PM -0500]:
> Martin may have left the wrong impression. We don't have the issues fully
> solved, and of course can no more make guarantees that there won't be visa or
> border hassles than the Mexico local team was able to for DebConf6 (the first
> year where visas became an issue).

Not only, might I add, DC6 was the first time the visas were an issue,
it was the first time also (at least as far as the organizers could
know) that people were left out because of the visa situation. Recall
that, i.e., DC4 (@Brazil) posed a problematic visa issuing situation
-precisely- for USAmericans, as Brazil has this polemic (but IMHO
great) reciprocity system, whereas Mexico appears to have decided to
become a screening door for the USA - We didn't expect the visa
requirements to be an issue at all, and even having all the needed
connections (my wife was at the time speaking on an almost-daily
basis with the Foreign Relations Secretary's personal assistant, and
not even that did the trick) we ended up... With a mess that left some
people in the cold.

But still, that experience showed us quite a bit. And yes, we are now
(I was not involved in DC8, but at least for DC7) receiving some
applications from people clearly looking only for a way to get entry
to a more developed country. And as an organization, DebConf (which
means, Debian) must be careful to check that all visa tramits we
process are _really_ for people interested in working for Debian. (And
going legally back home!)

> Further, we're definitely going to be giving people invitation letters and
> other advice to make sure they present themselves in the best (accurate) light
> they can to the visa or border officials, as well as separate exaggeration 
> from
> fact with regard to border search and other privacy concerns so that people 
> can
> make rational decisions based on reality instead of sensationalism. More
> details will be provided at the DebConf10 presentation in Caceres at DebConf9,
> if not sooner.

One source of confusion in Mexico was that people said at the Mexican
embassy they were travelling "for a conference". Stupid as it might
sound, that meant they were coming "on business", and it was a PITA to
convince the Foreign Relations people that we were _NOT_ for profit,
and neither were any of you. Jimmy, I advise you to triple-check if
that it is the best way to help the visa process, or whether we should
all apply as "tourists-and-nothing-else". After all, quite a bit of
people go as tourists to NY, so nothing fishy there.

-- 
Gunnar Wolf - gw...@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244
PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
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Re: DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

[Gunnar Wolf]

Victor H De la Luz dijo [Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 05:29:51PM -0300]:
> And if you are rejected, then always exists the mexican "coyotes" to
> cross the border (is a joke but is real)...

I recognize you are Mexican, by your mail. And... Well, I advise you
not to even joke on this. Being related to illegal people trafic (even
if just for an ill-fortuned Google search) can not only act against us
as an organization, but give bad publicity to the project as a whole.

Besides... as I said in my other mail, entering Mexico is at least
quite a headache on its own for people with visa problems. But that's
a (sad, stupid and quite) different story.

-- 
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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

[Russell Coker]

On Sat, 28 Feb 2009, Alberto Garcia  wrote:
> I have to say that for a person who doesn't know the exact details of
> the fork, this thread is quite vague (especially for its size).
>
> So I googled a bit. There's a bit of background here:
>
> http://lwn.net/Articles/195167/
>
> And the bug report is probably this one:
>
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=377109

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joerg_Schilling

I notice that Joerg's Wikipedia page is rather bare.

Instead of spending time covering all the old arguments on this list, perhaps 
some people could add links (such as the ones you cited) to Joerg's Wikipedia 
page.  A Wikipedia page about Joerg that is remotely complete and also 
neutral requires a reference to these issues (the current page only has two 
paragraphs).

-- 
russ...@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

[Jimmy Kaplowitz]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:26:10PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> One source of confusion in Mexico was that people said at the Mexican
> embassy they were travelling "for a conference". Stupid as it might
> sound, that meant they were coming "on business", and it was a PITA to
> convince the Foreign Relations people that we were _NOT_ for profit,
> and neither were any of you. Jimmy, I advise you to triple-check if
> that it is the best way to help the visa process, or whether we should
> all apply as "tourists-and-nothing-else". After all, quite a bit of
> people go as tourists to NY, so nothing fishy there.

The relevant US government websites also make it seem like a business visa is
correct in this case, and based on US university websites that seems also
applicable to academics visiting the US for academic conferences, not just
for-profit ones. Regardless, I agree about the triple-checking. We've already
received an offer of assistance from a properly licensed lawyer who lives in
NYC and has dealt with visa applications before. We're definitely going to pay
attention to getting these details right.

- Jimmy Kaplowitz
ji...@debian.org


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