Re: incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement (PROBLEM SOLVED)
I don't know, If you know the correct answer, but I was right. I found some paper with additional explanation of the dependency solver problem in Debian. This paper claims, that experimental branch of Aptitude include a prototype of mentioned powerfull solver (same as zypper or smart). (page 15): http://people.debian.org/~dburrows/model.pdf This means my thoughts were correct, because Aptittude mantainers are trying to implement it. (as I request) This answer I found satisfies me. One more time, thank you for your answers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement
Sorry. I'm not familiar with mailing list, and it take me a lot of time event to find out, how to response. Apologise myself. I did not know. I'm not used to. have a nice day. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement
__ > Od: jackyf.de...@gmail.com > Komu: kc.ubuntu...@centrum.cz > CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, de...@lists.debian.org > Datum: 09.02.2009 18:15 > Předmět: Re: incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement > kc.ubuntu...@centrum.cz wrote: #> #> If you look at the comparison i posted above, you can se that APT is worse than Urpmi and SMART - which was the best dependency solver in that comparison. Zypper mentioned above, is a ittle bit better #than #smart: #> #> #> #If you look at users' feelings, situation will rotate significantly, due to my #> #experience. #> #> That's completely nonsense. Possitive rating targets the APT-DEB-debian repository complete system. It does not mean, APT it-self is good. It can be worst all-over the world, but usage among single repository #with dependencies tested for years before release can't challenge hard solver work. #That's almost completely not true. Debian release managers and maintainers of #key system packages may tell you how much efforts they put to allow smooth and #painless upgrades of the system. This is exactly what i want to say. Debian developers do great job and long hard work, and in the end, as a result original Debian repository exist, with so precisely descibed dependencies, that even the most stupid package manager could work well. That is not a challenge for dependecy solver. Solving preblems among the debian repository is easy. This Debian aproach is great for servers, but not usefull for Desktops, where bleeding edge software and mixed repositories could be expected. That the real reason of bigy hype around Ubuntu Linux, which fill the hole for Debian Desktop. And in that case, I feel APT useless. And because Debian and ubuntu are bound together I think it is imposible to make a change only in ubuntu. Although they put some effort and money in SMART. #> As you pointed above, and as I understand it, APT is de-facto simple package-updater. Mixing many repositories or downgrading is treated as a stupid way. Am I right? #Mixing many repos? Not, of course. I see sources.list's with dozen of repos. #Downgrading packages may break your system (by design, in any software). So, #all downgrades should be done with caution and in not-automatic way. That is not the argument. How could APT know, which souliton is the best. As I said above, on Debian Stable, it can be expected that upgrading is the only way. But not on the desktop whith shiny new software. #> OK. Maybe i just supposed APT to do various things I'm used to expect from other package managements. Now i undrstand, reading the point of view of APT ?cotributor?, this piece of software is not for me. #Maybe. But still, there is a qeustion, If I use Debian-like system, which package manager with powerfull solver I can use? Package management is not the only argument for choosing or refusing some distribution. -- Eugene V. Lyubimkin aka JackYF, JID: jackyf.devel(maildog)gmail.com C++/Perl developer, Debian Maintainer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement
__ > Od: jackyf.de...@gmail.com > Komu: kc.ubuntu...@centrum.cz > CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, APT Development Team > Datum: 09.02.2009 14:20 > Předmět: Re: incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement > #> As a SUSE user, I'm used to work with Zypper/Libzypp package managementm using SAT solver. Since Opensuse 11.0, Libzypp is the best, fastest and te most powerfool tool to solve dependenies ever used in #Linux distribution. #Please, no much advertises here. SUSE goes its own way, and Debian has large #own specific needs and particularities. It was not meant as an advertisement. I would be pleasedto have some of theese tools in Debian. #> If you look at the comparison i posted above, you can se that APT is worse than Urpmi and SMART - which was the best dependency solver in that comparison. Zypper mentioned above, is a ittle bit better than #smart: #> #If you look at users' feelings, situation will rotate significantly, due to my #experience. That's completely nonsense. Possitive rating targets the APT-DEB-debian repository complete system. It does not mean, APT it-self is good. It can be worst all-over the world, but usage among single repository with dependencies tested for years before release can't challenge hard solver work. #> #> I made some personal test, to compare the solver capabilities myself. I add KDE 4.2 repository to SUSE and Ubuntu, and made an upgrade from 4.1.3 to 4.2. After that i disabled KDE 4.2 repositories and delete #one of the KDE 4.2 packages. This lead to inconsistent state, because KDE 4.2 repository was unavailable to repaire the dependency. The solution is obvious. Donwgrade somepackages back to KDE 4.1.3, to make dependencies OK because all 4.1.3 packages are available. #> #You might forgot that in the Debian way downgrade is unsupported at all, so #APT treats the downgrade as one of worst possible solutions. Oh. I really did not know that. I have to keep it in mind for the future instalations. #> For APT (ubuntu), it was totaly imposible to find that existing solution. It gave it up because of broken dependencies. No parameters like "-f" worked. After that, I tried SMART, which solved the problem #immediatelly. As I posted above, Smart has far better dependency solver. #> #> After that, I made the same situation using Zypper/Opensuse. It immediately found that existing solution as the fastest and with minimum changes, but offered me some other possibilities. #> #> So. APT is totally incapable to solve dependency problems and from mathematical point of view find only only obvious predictable solution. If it does not available, or package dependencies are written badly, it #ends without solution. #Mathematical point of view is something that does not value high in package #management (at least, for me and some people). The package manager should have #to deal with real problems on real distro in the first place, and APT is #playing this role quite well (though can do it better, of course). As you pointed above, and as I understand it, APT is de-facto simple package-updater. Mixing many repositories or downgrading is treated as a stupid way. Am I right? #> #> Smart is far more better and Zypper is the best. In addition, both SMART and Zypper has ability to manage repositories and keys, which APT is unable. (you have to dit souces.list manualy) #> ##> Is there any chance to implement better solvers to APT/Aptitude, chagne them to multiplatform and far better SMART or porting the best Zypper tool from Opensuse? #APT team has a number of tasks to work. As usually, patches are usually welcome. # #I obviously think that "incapable and obsolete" (from subject of the letter) #aren't the words which can characterize APT. OK. Maybe i just supposed APT to do various things I'm used to expect from other package managements. Now i undrstand, reading the point of view of APT ?cotributor?, this piece of software is not for me. Thank you a lot for your response. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
incapable and obsolete APT / Aptitude replacement
I would like to ask you a little bit controversal question. As a user I miss a package manager based on powerfull dependency solver. Using APT in DEB-based distributions, I can easilly create some kind of problem, APT is unable to solve. This is because the APT is the worst dependency solver almost ever invented. Proof can be found here: http://www.mancoosi.org/edos/manager.html As a SUSE user, I'm used to work with Zypper/Libzypp package managementm using SAT solver. Since Opensuse 11.0, Libzypp is the best, fastest and te most powerfool tool to solve dependenies ever used in Linux distribution. If you look at the comparison i posted above, you can se that APT is worse than Urpmi and SMART - which was the best dependency solver in that comparison. Zypper mentioned above, is a ittle bit better than smart: http://duncan.mac-vicar.com/blog/archives/309 I made some personal test, to compare the solver capabilities myself. I add KDE 4.2 repository to SUSE and Ubuntu, and made an upgrade from 4.1.3 to 4.2. After that i disabled KDE 4.2 repositories and delete one of the KDE 4.2 packages. This lead to inconsistent state, because KDE 4.2 repository was unavailable to repaire the dependency. The solution is obvious. Donwgrade somepackages back to KDE 4.1.3, to make dependencies OK because all 4.1.3 packages are available. For APT (ubuntu), it was totaly imposible to find that existing solution. It gave it up because of broken dependencies. No parameters like "-f" worked. After that, I tried SMART, which solved the problem immediatelly. As I posted above, Smart has far better dependency solver. After that, I made the same situation using Zypper/Opensuse. It immediately found that existing solution as the fastest and with minimum changes, but offered me some other possibilities. So. APT is totally incapable to solve dependency problems and from mathematical point of view find only only obvious predictable solution. If it does not available, or package dependencies are written badly, it ends without solution. Smart is far more better and Zypper is the best. In addition, both SMART and Zypper has ability to manage repositories and keys, which APT is unable. (you have to dit souces.list manualy) Is there any chance to implement better solvers to APT/Aptitude, chagne them to multiplatform and far better SMART or porting the best Zypper tool from Opensuse? Just an Idea
