Accepted coccinelle 1.2.deb-1 (source) into unstable

2024-07-14 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 14:01:27 +0200
Source: coccinelle
Architecture: source
Version: 1.2.deb-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Stéphane Glondu 
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.2.deb-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload
   * New upstream release
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Accepted coccinelle 1.1.1.deb-6 (source) into unstable

2024-06-29 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 08:50:49 +0200
Source: coccinelle
Architecture: source
Version: 1.1.1.deb-6
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Stéphane Glondu 
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.1.1.deb-6) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload
   * Fix build with OCaml 5.2.0
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Accepted squid-deb-proxy 0.8.16 (source) into unstable

2024-05-25 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 16:24:25 +0200
Source: squid-deb-proxy
Architecture: source
Version: 0.8.16
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Michael Vogt 
Changed-By: Michael Vogt 
Closes: 999647
Changes:
 squid-deb-proxy (0.8.16) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Mika Pflüger ]
   * Merged NMU changes, thanks to Hideki
   * debian/control: update VCS and homepage metadata (Closes: #999647)
 .
   [ Michael Vogt ]
   * apt-avahi-discover: use syslog for logging in AptAvahiClient
 Patch from `jasonpe...@gmail.com` - thanks!
   * debian: add gbp.conf
   * Makefile, apt-avahi-discover: make `flake8` clean via `make check`
   * github: add simple workflow
 .
   [ Jesse McDonald ]
   * port from asyncore to asyncio
 .
   [ Mark Esler ]
   * d/control: add flake8 Build-Depends
   * 30autoproxy: update apt-transport-http syntax
   * d/squid-deb-proxy.postinst: add launchpadcontent
   * mirror-dstdomain.acl.Ubuntu: add esm.ubuntu.com
 .
   [ Hideki Yamane ]
   * 0.8.15+nmu1, thank you!
 .
   [ Miriam Espana Acebal ]
   * 0.8.15+nmu1ubuntu1, thank you!
 .
   [ Rolf Leggewie ]
   * 0.8.15+nmu1ubuntu2, thank you!
   * 0.8.15+nmu1ubuntu4 (patches unapplied)
 .
   [ Gunnar Hjalmarsson ]
   * 0.8.15+nmu1ubuntu3, thank you!
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Accepted deepin-deb-installer 5.12.4-2 (source) into unstable

2024-04-10 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Source: deepin-deb-installer
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Version: 5.12.4-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Deepin Packaging Team 

Changed-By: Nisha Pariyar 
Closes: 1044681 1068040
Changes:
 deepin-deb-installer (5.12.4-2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * debian/control:
 + update libqt5concurrent5 and libqt5widgets5 to
   libqt5concurrent5t64 and libqt5widgets5t64.
   (Closes: #1068040)
 + Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.2.
 + Change build dependency pkg-config to pkgconf.
 + Add myself to uploader list.
   * debian/clean:
 + Clean .qm files to fix ftbfs-source-after-build.
   (Closes: #1044681)
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Accepted ruby-deb-version 1.0.2-1 (source all) into unstable

2024-01-02 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Version: 1.0.2-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Ruby Team 

Changed-By: Ajayi Olatunji O. 
Description:
 ruby-deb-version - Port of Debian Version comparison to Ruby
Closes: 1059438
Changes:
 ruby-deb-version (1.0.2-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Initial release (Closes: #1059438)
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Bug#1059587: ITP: ruby-deb-version, A port of "Debian Version" comparison function to Ruby

2023-12-28 Thread Ajayi Olatunji O.

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Ajayi Olatunji
X-Debbugs-CC:debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name : ruby-google-apis-core

Version : 0.11.2
Upstream Author : Google LLC

* URL : https://github.com/google/google-api-ruby-client#readme
* License : Apache-2.0
Programming Lang:Ruby
Description : Common utility and base classes for legacy Google REST 
clients.


This package is a build dependency for ruby-arr-pm, a package required
in gitlab 16.6.2




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Bug#1059438: ITP: ruby-deb-version, A port of "Debian Version" comparison function to Ruby

2023-12-25 Thread Ajayi Olatunji O.

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Ajayi Olatunji
X-Debbugs-CC:debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: ruby-deb-version

   Version : 1.0.2
   Upstream Author : Nemo

* URL : https://github.com/captn3m0/ruby-deb-version#readme
* License : MIT
   Programming Lang:Ruby
   Description : A port of Debian Version comparison to Ruby.

 This package is a build dependency for ruby-arr-pm, a package required
in gitlab 16.6.2



Accepted deb-gview 0.3.7 (source) into unstable

2023-11-22 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.7) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * debian/tests/control: Depend on at-spi2-core.
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Accepted deb-gview 0.3.6 (source) into unstable

2023-11-21 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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 deb-gview (0.3.6) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
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Accepted deb-gview 0.3.5 (source) into unstable

2023-11-10 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 20:41:40 +0200
Source: deb-gview
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Version: 0.3.5
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.5) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
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   * configure.ac:
 + Increase version to 0.3.5.
 + Update bug report email.
   * debian/tests/control: Add equivs to autopkgtest Depends.
   * debian/tests/test-*:
 + Fix autopkgtest scripts for Debian-CI.
 + Use create_test_deb function for all autopkgtests.
 + Use /bin/sh and remove all bashisms.
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Accepted deb-gview 0.3.4 (source) into unstable

2023-10-18 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Source: deb-gview
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.4) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
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   * deb-gview.1.xml.in:
 + Change help argument to -h.
 + Add information for version argument.
   * src/dvarchive.c: Print errors to stderr.
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   * debian/tests: Add autopkgtest files.
   * debian/copyright: Remove unnecessary Upstream-Name field.
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Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-19 Thread Adam Borowski
On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 11:39:49AM +0200, Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues 
wrote:
> I was about to say that zdebootstrap by Adam Borowski used to be a thing four
> years ago but now I see another commit from two days ago so maybe it's still
> alive and usable?
> 
> https://git.sr.ht/~kilobyte/zdebootstrap

At the moment, all it can do is unpack packages, but a blocker for even
continuing with dpkg would be registering triggers.

Other problems:
 * the base set includes diverts now; I would need to know them
   _beforehand_.  This means available from the control tarball, or
   preferably even Packages.  Shipping a list would notoriously get
   out of sync, thus is only an option for past packages.
 * parallel debootstrapping is for obvious reasons utterly incompatible
   with usrmerge or any other kind of random package sabotaging the layout
   behind dpkg's back.  When/if DEP17 gets implemented, such alias
   mangling would be doable but symlinks would still be a nasty thing.

I'd also need to see what Pre-Depends can't be cheated away; as far as
I've found so far, all are needed for upgrades or preinst, otherwise
degrading them to Depends is workable -- but potential for breakage is
huge.  Likewise cheating on preinst.

Also I'd really need to mark zdebootstrapped systems as tainted somehow,
as they wouldn't be trustworthy until a lot of polishing and testing is
done.

> There is also my package mmdebstrap which gives you a Debian chroot a few 
> times
> faster than debootstrap does. Here are some benchmarks from my laptop:
> 
> | variant   | mmdebstrap | debootstrap  |
> | - | -- |  |
> | essential | 9.52 s | n.a  |
> | apt   | 10.98 s| n.a  |
> | minbase   | 13.54 s| 26.37 s  |
> | buildd| 21.31 s| 34.85 s  |
> | standard  | 23.01 s| 48.83 s  |

That's so insanely bad...  if we only could put dpkg developers' time to
some productive task instead of you-know-what.  Even without breaking any
of current guarantees, you can easily:
 * parallelize unpack stages
 * replace the status database with something not terrible

WRT the second point: the only benefit of the current scheme is that, on a
filesystem that corrupts the data on crash even if you do everything right,
the user can do hail-mary manual recovery.  If you stop caring about ext2
and vfat, we can do much better.  And even dropping the flat text file
format wouldn't be required if we 1. extended the "updates" log, 2. didn't
rewrite the status file so often.  Of course, this would require all
readers to understand "updates" at which point we can just as well go with
a binary database, but it's not like good key-value stores are far between,
nor hard to devise from scratch.

It's depressing how lesser distributions can be so much faster, despite us
being supposed to be the bestest, prettiest, and so on :p


(I'd continue this discussion, but ATM stuck in Abu Dhabi for 14 hours
with no power source, then needing a week of sleep...)


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Packager's rule #1: upstream _always_ screws something up.  This
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ is true especially if you're packaging your own project.
⠈⠳⣄



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-19 Thread Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Hi,

Quoting Thomas Goirand (2023-09-19 09:50:45)
> I'm not sure if we should switch to zstd, or if xz will do the work, though
> I'd be delighted if the dpkg performances could be improved. I'm spending all
> of my days installing server, sometimes with 1.5 TB of RAM and 128 core (AMD
> Epyc...), on last gen NVMe, using a local mirror, it's really painful to see
> how slow the debootstrap process is, compared to what it could be. Unpacking
> multiple .deb at the same time seems a very good idea to me, as well as
> parallelizing everything we can.

I was about to say that zdebootstrap by Adam Borowski used to be a thing four
years ago but now I see another commit from two days ago so maybe it's still
alive and usable?

https://git.sr.ht/~kilobyte/zdebootstrap

There is also my package mmdebstrap which gives you a Debian chroot a few times
faster than debootstrap does. Here are some benchmarks from my laptop:

| variant   | mmdebstrap | debootstrap  |
| - | -- |  |
| essential | 9.52 s | n.a  |
| apt   | 10.98 s| n.a  |
| minbase   | 13.54 s| 26.37 s  |
| buildd| 21.31 s| 34.85 s  |
| standard  | 23.01 s| 48.83 s  |

Depending on your use-case you might be interested in the essential or apt
variants which are even faster because they install less stuff than "minbase".

Thanks!

cheers, josch

signature.asc
Description: signature


Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-19 Thread Thomas Goirand

On 9/16/23 07:01, Hideki Yamane wrote:

* So, if we change {data,control}.tar file format in .deb from xz to zst,
   we can reduce package installation time than ever since less decompression
   time. It saves our lifetime a bit :)

* Downside: package file size is a bit larger than now, but enough bandwidth
   will ease it for download time
   - Not sure how repository size will be, need an experiment


Hi,

I'm not sure if we should switch to zstd, or if xz will do the work, 
though I'd be delighted if the dpkg performances could be improved. I'm 
spending all of my days installing server, sometimes with 1.5 TB of RAM 
and 128 core (AMD Epyc...), on last gen NVMe, using a local mirror, it's 
really painful to see how slow the debootstrap process is, compared to 
what it could be. Unpacking multiple .deb at the same time seems a very 
good idea to me, as well as parallelizing everything we can.


Just my 2 cents, as I wont be working on this,
Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-18 Thread Leandro Cunha
Hi,

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 4:20 PM Helmut Grohne  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 10:31:20AM +0530, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> >  Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in .deb,
> >  {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".
> >
> >  I want to hear your thought about this.
>
> I am not very enthusiastic about this idea. I skip over those arguments
> already raised by others and add one that I haven't seen thus far. zstd
> is quite optimized for 64bit CPUs and for amd64 in particular. amd64 is
> the only architecture for which zstd provides a hufmann implementation
> in assembly.
>
> > ## More CPUs
> >
> >  2012: ThinkPad L530 has Core i5-3320M (2 cores, 4 threads)
> >  2023: ThinkPad L15 has Core i5-1335U (10 cores, 12 threads)
> >
> >  
> > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/817vs5294/Intel-i5-3320M-vs-Intel-i5-1335U
> >   - i5-3320M: single 1614, multicore 2654
> >   - i5-1335U: single 3650, multicore 18076 points.
>
> While the majority of CPUs in active deployments is amd64, I'd also like
> to see numbers for 32bit CPUs and non-x86 ones. While I personally find
> the trade-off by zstd fit for a number of my use cases, I was also
> surprised just how slow it decompresses on armhf.
>
> I found some arm board with some linux kernel package sized 36MB.
>
>  algo | compressed size | decompression time
> --+-+---
>  xz   | 36MB|  14.7s
>  zstd | 52MB|   5.2s
>  zstd -9  | 48MB|   5.2s
>  zstd -11 | 47MB|   5.4s
>  zstd -19 | 41MB|   5.7s
>
> Not as slow as I remembered apparently, but it still has a more than 10%
> size overhead. The size ratio is consistent with Robert Edmond's
> numbers, but we no longer see that 10-fold speedup. And this did not
> look at decompression memory requirements.
>
> I am decompressing a *lot* of .debs (dedup.d.n, multiarch hinter,
> crossqa.d.n, dumat). All of these applications would benefit from zstd
> compressed .debs in terms of decompression speed. Yet, that has never
> been the bottleneck to me. To me, download speed matters more and
> swapping out a 1GBit link for a faster one isn't that easy.
>
> I'd vote against this given the data we have now.
>
> Can we defer the discussion until there are more convincing numbers?
>
> Helmut
>

If even Helmut voted against, I also vote and I package both for Arch
and Debian, I didn't notice that much of a difference in performance
for compression/decompression. But I use an NVME on the machine (it's
usually very fast along with a processor that isn't slow either) I use
to compile the packages I work with. But when you say that the numbers
are not that convincing, I agree.

-- 
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha
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q04rFttWwbKix13pc65aDlk47LxWrb84N3Gnf1E/OTsLTXqC7u5JZ7YJkC6CsPbo
D1sQkfCiJCFCTgf7dydEVt8ujS/Uu1kz86ufdRwaMRcvBZAORGdB58LEsLB65WN4
hLRYF7xvcxu6t7FGrIYereaxUAWLA2B/ZnCEdOY94w7s0uaPjHdf4lfHebuZ7T08
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xBw+D080dUWWD5g868TZ3pkM3DXO9

Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-18 Thread Helmut Grohne
Hi,

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 10:31:20AM +0530, Hideki Yamane wrote:
>  Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in .deb,
>  {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".
> 
>  I want to hear your thought about this.

I am not very enthusiastic about this idea. I skip over those arguments
already raised by others and add one that I haven't seen thus far. zstd
is quite optimized for 64bit CPUs and for amd64 in particular. amd64 is
the only architecture for which zstd provides a hufmann implementation
in assembly.

> ## More CPUs
> 
>  2012: ThinkPad L530 has Core i5-3320M (2 cores, 4 threads)
>  2023: ThinkPad L15 has Core i5-1335U (10 cores, 12 threads)
> 
>  
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/817vs5294/Intel-i5-3320M-vs-Intel-i5-1335U
>   - i5-3320M: single 1614, multicore 2654
>   - i5-1335U: single 3650, multicore 18076 points.

While the majority of CPUs in active deployments is amd64, I'd also like
to see numbers for 32bit CPUs and non-x86 ones. While I personally find
the trade-off by zstd fit for a number of my use cases, I was also
surprised just how slow it decompresses on armhf.

I found some arm board with some linux kernel package sized 36MB.

 algo | compressed size | decompression time
--+-+---
 xz   | 36MB|  14.7s
 zstd | 52MB|   5.2s
 zstd -9  | 48MB|   5.2s
 zstd -11 | 47MB|   5.4s
 zstd -19 | 41MB|   5.7s

Not as slow as I remembered apparently, but it still has a more than 10%
size overhead. The size ratio is consistent with Robert Edmond's
numbers, but we no longer see that 10-fold speedup. And this did not
look at decompression memory requirements.

I am decompressing a *lot* of .debs (dedup.d.n, multiarch hinter,
crossqa.d.n, dumat). All of these applications would benefit from zstd
compressed .debs in terms of decompression speed. Yet, that has never
been the bottleneck to me. To me, download speed matters more and
swapping out a 1GBit link for a faster one isn't that easy.

I'd vote against this given the data we have now.

Can we defer the discussion until there are more convincing numbers?

Helmut



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-18 Thread Eduard Bloch
Hallo,
* Hideki Yamane [Sat, Sep 16 2023, 10:31:20AM]:

>  Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in .deb,
>  {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".

I tend to agree but...

> # Compared to past change to xz proposal (in DebConf12)
> 
>   There are reasons why I propose this
> 
>   * More bandwidth

You mean more _network_ bandwidth.

>   * More CPUs

You mean more _cores_ (but not necessarily faster cores).

>  According to https://www.speedtest.net/global-index, broadband bandwidth
>  in Nicaragua becomes almost 10x

Yes, the question of "10 times more CPU burning vs. saving 10 percent of
data size" has become not so easy nowadays.

> ## More CPUs
> 
>  2012: ThinkPad L530 has Core i5-3320M (2 cores, 4 threads)
>  2023: ThinkPad L15 has Core i5-1335U (10 cores, 12 threads)
> 
>  
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/817vs5294/Intel-i5-3320M-vs-Intel-i5-1335U
>   - i5-3320M: single 1614, multicore 2654
>   - i5-1335U: single 3650, multicore 18076 points.
>  And, xz cannot use multi core CPUs for decompression but zstd can.
>  It means that if we use xz, we just get 2x CPU power, but change to zst,
>  we can get more than 10x CPU power than 2012.
> 
>  It reduces a lot of time for package installation.

When the network bandwith is cheap then it surely is. But something I do
not like in this trade-off is the question of energy consumption resp.
CO2 emissions. What exactly does the faster processing mean in terms of
the environment impact mean, and how much (i.e. delays) can we expect
from our users here?

Anyway, my overall gut feeling after dealing with compression issues
(and wearing my "unp" and "apt-cacher-ng" upstream hat) is that Zstd is
a slightly better default option for compression for typical binary
files. There are a some special cases in certain contexts where other
compressor (even bzip* for source code) can be more sensible, so those
option should remain available. But as rule of thumb, Zstd looks like
the better way to go.

Best regards,
Eduard.


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Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-17 Thread M. Zhou
On Sun, 2023-09-17 at 22:16 +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> 
> I do not think wasting space is any good idea.
> 
> > ## More bandwidth
> >  According to https://www.speedtest.net/global-index, broadband 
> >  bandwidth
> >  in Nicaragua becomes almost 10x
> 
> And elsewhere it may have gone up a different factor.
> Still, there are MANY places where its still bad.

I fully agree. I forgot to mention this point in my other response
in the thread.

The thing is, while the average bandwidth do increase as time goes
by, the bottom-1% will not likely increase like that.

In many corners in the world, people are still using poor and
expensive network. Those networks might be even metered.
Significantly bloating up the mirror size will directly increase
the metered network bill for those people. I was one of them.

It will also increase the pressure on mirror hosting.
Some universities host linux mirrors on their own. Debian is always
the most bulky repository to mirror. They are not always commercially
supported -- sometimes supported only by volunteer's funds.
A significantly bloated up debian mirrors can make their life more
difficult. Things can be worse if they the uploading bandwidth is
limited of even metered. I was one of such hosts.

I know, this is a difficult trade-off between Debian's accessibilty
and software performance.

> >  And, xz cannot use multi core CPUs for decompression but zstd can.
> >  It means that if we use xz, we just get 2x CPU power, but change
> > to 
> >  zst,
> >  we can get more than 10x CPU power than 2012.
> 
> In ideal conditions, maybe, but still, thats the first (to me) good 
> reason. IMO not good enough to actually do it.
> 
> >   - Not sure how repository size will be, need an experiment
> 
> And keep in mind the repository is mirrored a trillion times, stored
> in
> snapshots, burned into images here and there, so any "small" increase
> in
> size actually means a *huge* waste in the end.
> 
> If we switch formats, going to something that's at least as good as
> the
> one we currently have should be the goal. (And I do not mean
> something
> like "its code/algorithm is bad", really, that argument is dead
> before
> it begins even).
> 
> Now, thats for .debs. There might be a better argument when talking
> about the index files in dists/, they are read so much more often, it
> *may* make more sense there.
> 



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-17 Thread Christoph Biedl
Stephan Verbücheln wrote...

> If you want to open that debate (again?), one should probably switch to
> lzip. It uses the same LZMA compression like xz, but has a way more
> sane file format.

Besides the fact dpkg already has zstd support while lzip is missing, so
that was a way bigger changes: In case you've missed that, lzip is not a
mine field in Debian, it's completely burnt ground. It's better to never
mention it.

Christoph



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Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-17 Thread Joerg Jaspert

On 16988 March 1977, Hideki Yamane wrote:

 Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in 
 .deb,

 {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".
 I want to hear your thought about this.


Negative.


# Compared to past change to xz proposal (in DebConf12)
  * More bandwidth
  * More CPUs
  * More storage bandwidth


Get us actual numbers please on how much a full Debian mirror would 
increase in size.

Also consider services like snapshots.

I do not think wasting space is any good idea.


## More bandwidth
 According to https://www.speedtest.net/global-index, broadband 
 bandwidth

 in Nicaragua becomes almost 10x


And elsewhere it may have gone up a different factor.
Still, there are MANY places where its still bad.


 And, xz cannot use multi core CPUs for decompression but zstd can.
 It means that if we use xz, we just get 2x CPU power, but change to 
 zst,

 we can get more than 10x CPU power than 2012.


In ideal conditions, maybe, but still, thats the first (to me) good 
reason. IMO not good enough to actually do it.



  - Not sure how repository size will be, need an experiment


And keep in mind the repository is mirrored a trillion times, stored in
snapshots, burned into images here and there, so any "small" increase in
size actually means a *huge* waste in the end.

If we switch formats, going to something that's at least as good as the
one we currently have should be the goal. (And I do not mean something
like "its code/algorithm is bad", really, that argument is dead before
it begins even).

Now, thats for .debs. There might be a better argument when talking
about the index files in dists/, they are read so much more often, it
*may* make more sense there.

--
bye, Joerg



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-17 Thread Stephan Verbücheln
If you want to open that debate (again?), one should probably switch to
lzip. It uses the same LZMA compression like xz, but has a way more
sane file format.

Also note that the (pretended) multi-threading-capability of xz is
mostly based on its improper file format[1]:

> The xz-utils manual says that LZMA2 is an updated version of LZMA to
> fix some practical issues of LZMA. This wording suggests that LZMA2
> is some sort of improved LZMA algorithm. (After all, the 'A' in LZMA
> stands for 'algorithm'). But LZMA2 is a container format that divides
> LZMA data into chunks in an unsafe way. 

Regards

[1] https://www.nongnu.org/lzip/xz_inadequate.html


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Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-17 Thread Peter Pentchev
On Sun, Sep 17, 2023 at 09:31:03AM +0530, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 13:34:02 +0200
> Guillem Jover  wrote:
> > That's not correct. dpkg-deb is doing multi-threaded xz decompression
> > since 1.21.13, and dpkg-source is doing multi-threaded xz compression
> > and decompression since 1.21.14.
> > 
> > Also the Ubuntu zstd implementation did not have multi-threaded support
> > at all, the one implemented in dpkg 1.21.18 does have explicit
> > multi-threaded support for _compression_, but AFIUI (from zstd code and
> > its API being used in libdpkg) not for decompression.
> 
>  Thank you, that was my fault, correct information is very welcoming.
>  
>  Is there any plan to improve zstd implementation in dpkg?

FWIW, if people think that it would be beneficial for libzstd to be
built against libpthread (which seems to be the only way it supports
multithreaded operation right now), this could be arranged - I just
never thought anybody wanted that until now.

G'luck,
Peter

-- 
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PGP key:http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
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Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Hideki Yamane
On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 14:25:48 -0400
"M. Zhou"  wrote:
> Be careful if it bloats up our mirrors. Is there any estimate on
> the extra space cost for a full debian mirror?

 Yes, sure, I'll do some experiment for it later.
 Thank you for your comment!


-- 
Hideki Yamane 



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Hideki Yamane
On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 13:34:02 +0200
Guillem Jover  wrote:
> That's not correct. dpkg-deb is doing multi-threaded xz decompression
> since 1.21.13, and dpkg-source is doing multi-threaded xz compression
> and decompression since 1.21.14.
> 
> Also the Ubuntu zstd implementation did not have multi-threaded support
> at all, the one implemented in dpkg 1.21.18 does have explicit
> multi-threaded support for _compression_, but AFIUI (from zstd code and
> its API being used in libdpkg) not for decompression.

 Thank you, that was my fault, correct information is very welcoming.
 
 Is there any plan to improve zstd implementation in dpkg?


-- 
Hideki Yamane 



Re: Performance counter stats Was Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Robert Edmonds
Lee wrote:
> What did you do to get the "Performance counter stats" section in the
> results for time?

alias time="perf stat"

-- 
Robert Edmonds
edmo...@debian.org



Performance counter stats Was Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Lee
On 9/16/23, Robert Edmonds wrote:

> $ time xz -v -k -T0 -6 data.tar
> data.tar (1/1)
>   100 %71.9 MiB / 452.5 MiB = 0.15921 MiB/s   0:21
>
>  Performance counter stats for 'xz -v -k -T0 -6 data.tar':
>
> 206,070.39 msec task-clock   #9.602 CPUs
> utilized
> 10,333  context-switches #   50.143 /sec
> 35  cpu-migrations   #0.170 /sec
> 73,502  page-faults  #  356.684 /sec
>925,351,049,292  cycles   #4.490 GHz
>945,596,486,369  instructions #1.02  insn per
> cycle
>106,039,632,660  branches #  514.580 M/sec
>  6,702,750,057  branch-misses#6.32% of all
> branches
>
>   21.460119122 seconds time elapsed
>
>  205.460711000 seconds user
>0.567559000 seconds sys

What did you do to get the "Performance counter stats" section in the
results for time?

TIA,
Lee



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Robert Edmonds
M. Zhou wrote:
> Just one comment.
> 
> Be careful if it bloats up our mirrors. Is there any estimate on
> the extra space cost for a full debian mirror?
> 
> If we trade-off the disk space with decompression speed, zstd -19
> is not necessarily very fast. I did not benchmark, but it is slow.

Anecdotally, for "linux-image-6.5.0-1-amd64_6.5.3-1_amd64.deb" the
data.tar component takes 72 MB when compressed with xz -6, and 80 MB
when compressed with zstd -19, so about 10% larger with zstd.

This is specifically with multi-threaded compression. The behavior of
-T0 between xz and zstd is slightly different. (It looks like xz -T0
uses the number of threads supported by the CPU while zstd -T0 uses the
number of physical cores in the CPU.) The most direct multi-threaded
compression comparison between the two compressors was:

$ time xz -v -k -T0 -6 data.tar
data.tar (1/1)
  100 %71.9 MiB / 452.5 MiB = 0.15921 MiB/s   0:21

 Performance counter stats for 'xz -v -k -T0 -6 data.tar':

206,070.39 msec task-clock   #9.602 CPUs 
utilized
10,333  context-switches #   50.143 /sec
35  cpu-migrations   #0.170 /sec
73,502  page-faults  #  356.684 /sec
   925,351,049,292  cycles   #4.490 GHz
   945,596,486,369  instructions #1.02  insn per 
cycle
   106,039,632,660  branches #  514.580 M/sec
 6,702,750,057  branch-misses#6.32% of all 
branches

  21.460119122 seconds time elapsed

 205.460711000 seconds user
   0.567559000 seconds sys

Versus:

$ time zstd -T0 --auto-threads=logical -19 data.tar
data.tar : 17.54%   (   452 MiB =>   79.3 MiB, data.tar.zst)

 Performance counter stats for 'zstd -T0 --auto-threads=logical -19 data.tar':

293,120.46 msec task-clock   #8.649 CPUs 
utilized
21,754  context-switches #   74.215 /sec
78  cpu-migrations   #0.266 /sec
 9,806  page-faults  #   33.454 /sec
 1,317,565,940,985  cycles   #4.495 GHz
 1,430,204,017,430  instructions #1.09  insn per 
cycle
   266,246,644,005  branches #  908.318 M/sec
 5,762,322,300  branch-misses#2.16% of all 
branches

  33.889831439 seconds time elapsed

 292.501337000 seconds user
   0.56756 seconds sys


So, 71.9 MiB in 21 seconds for xz -6 versus 79.3 MiB in 34 seconds for
zstd -19. In other words, xz is 91% the size and 63% the wallclock time
of zstd here.

zstd decompression is much, much faster than xz decompression, but
apparently zstd does not support multi-threaded decompression while xz
does. Here xz decompresses in about 120% the wallclock time of zstd
(about 0.6 seconds for xz vs 0.5 seconds for zstd) but is only able to
perform that well by occupying most of the CPU:

$ time xzcat -v -T12 data.tar.xz > /dev/null
data.tar.xz (1/1)
  100 %71.9 MiB / 452.5 MiB = 0.159

 Performance counter stats for 'xzcat -v -T12 data.tar.xz':

  5,434.51 msec task-clock   #8.720 CPUs 
utilized
 1,187  context-switches #  218.419 /sec
22  cpu-migrations   #4.048 /sec
24,119  page-faults  #4.438 K/sec
24,311,239,346  cycles   #4.473 GHz
21,196,398,588  instructions #0.87  insn per 
cycle
 2,841,057,067  branches #  522.781 M/sec
   296,751,808  branch-misses#   10.45% of all 
branches

   0.623224953 seconds time elapsed

   5.304562000 seconds user
   0.127532000 seconds sys


$ time zstdcat -v -T12 data.tar.zst > /dev/null
Warning : decompression does not support multi-threading

 Performance counter stats for 'zstdcat -v -T12 data.tar.zst':

559.03 msec task-clock   #1.075 CPUs 
utilized
 4,245  context-switches #7.593 K/sec
 5  cpu-migrations   #8.944 /sec
 1,032  page-faults  #1.846 K/sec
 2,519,428,855  cycles   #4.507 GHz
 5,752,165,946  instructions #2.28  insn per 
cycle
   943,510,461  branches #1.688 G/sec
17,026,238  branch-misses#1.80% of all 
branches

   0.520219563 seconds time elapsed

   0.518084000 seconds user
   0.044177000 seconds sys

If xzcat is res

Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread M. Zhou
Just one comment.

Be careful if it bloats up our mirrors. Is there any estimate on
the extra space cost for a full debian mirror?

If we trade-off the disk space with decompression speed, zstd -19
is not necessarily very fast. I did not benchmark, but it is slow.


On Sat, 2023-09-16 at 10:31 +0530, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>  Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in
> .deb,
>  {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".
> 
>  I want to hear your thought about this.



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Adam Borowski
On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 10:31:20AM +0530, Hideki Yamane wrote:
>  Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in .deb,
>  {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".

>  According to https://www.speedtest.net/global-index, broadband bandwidth
>  in Nicaragua becomes almost 10x
> 
>  - 2012: 1.7Mbps
>  - 2023: 17.4Mbps
> 
>  10x faster than past: it means that file size is not so much problem for us

That's broadband, a lot of folks have nothing but crappy 5G.

I just happen to have a package converted to multiple formats on the disk
because I tested/benchmarked format 0.939 vs 2.0[1].  And:

  -h bytes
tar 5.5G5839735844
gz  897M 939926960
xz  375M 392874208
zst 774M 811105258

For this particular package zst gives over twice as big file.  You can pick
a stronger compression level but at that point we're just going up the
tradeoff curve.

> ## More CPUs
> 
>  2012: ThinkPad L530 has Core i5-3320M (2 cores, 4 threads)
>  2023: ThinkPad L15 has Core i5-1335U (10 cores, 12 threads)
> 
>  
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/817vs5294/Intel-i5-3320M-vs-Intel-i5-1335U
>   - i5-3320M: single 1614, multicore 2654
>   - i5-1335U: single 3650, multicore 18076 points.
> 
>  And, xz cannot use multi core CPUs for decompression but zstd can.
>  It means that if we use xz, we just get 2x CPU power, but change to zst,
>  we can get more than 10x CPU power than 2012.

As someone with a 64-way amd64 desktop, and a purchased-but-not-delivered
64-core riscv64 box on the way, I understand the sentiment -- but, what
about parallelizing by unpacking multiple packages at the same time instead?
That's safer and doesn't cost compressing ratio[2].  I've prototyped this,
and even with current dpkg internals it shouldn't be hard to do (even if
dpkg runs keep switching between unpacking and configuring too often).

>  It reduces a lot of time for package installation.

There's a lot lot lot of other places in dpkg that could use a speedup, and
they don't come with such a tradeoff.  Especially fsync abuse: dpkg writes
all of its status every. single. step., fully. flushing. it. to. persistent.
storage. even. if. it's. a. dingy. SD. card.  So it does for every file it
unpacks; to a semi-ignorant onlooker it seems as if it uses some sort of
range coder just so it can fsync between fractional bits.

Even though there's no good generic way to ensure consistency of extracted
payload (POSIX lacks such API, you can use btrfs snapshots), at least the
dpkg state could win a lot by stopping assuming the limitations of ext2
apply to other filesystems.  On ext2 a crash may do unbounded damage to
the filesystem, using flat text files and fsyncs between every operation
improves recoverability, but any filesystem newer than that adds better
guarantees.  There are so many techniques that would avoid full state
rewrites...

> ## More storage bandwidth
> 
>  SSD + PCIe 3/4/5 is enough, not be a blocker for decompression, now.

So wishing Optane NVDIMMs didn't get cancelled... :/


On the other hand, we could switch the compression for _some_ packages.
There's stuff that gets unpacked by buildds over and over.  Compilers and
library headers are not used much by end-users on dingy connections (and
us hackers tend to prioritize computing device spending compared to regular
people), thus what about switching stuff that's 1. not in build-essential
but 2. in a set shared by many Build-Deps?



Meow!

[1]. https://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2023/09/msg00014.html
[2]. Parallel compression, and especially decompression, is done by
 flushing and dropping old state every block.
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Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Guillem Jover
Hi!

On Sat, 2023-09-16 at 10:31:20 +0530, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> ## More bandwidth
> 
>  According to https://www.speedtest.net/global-index, broadband bandwidth
>  in Nicaragua becomes almost 10x
> 
>  - 2012: 1.7Mbps
>  - 2023: 17.4Mbps

Well that page still does not look too great for many other countries,
including with fixed broadband.

> ## More CPUs
> 
>  2012: ThinkPad L530 has Core i5-3320M (2 cores, 4 threads)
>  2023: ThinkPad L15 has Core i5-1335U (10 cores, 12 threads)
> 
>  
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/817vs5294/Intel-i5-3320M-vs-Intel-i5-1335U
>   - i5-3320M: single 1614, multicore 2654
>   - i5-1335U: single 3650, multicore 18076 points.
> 
>  And, xz cannot use multi core CPUs for decompression but zstd can.
>  It means that if we use xz, we just get 2x CPU power, but change to zst,
>  we can get more than 10x CPU power than 2012.

That's not correct. dpkg-deb is doing multi-threaded xz decompression
since 1.21.13, and dpkg-source is doing multi-threaded xz compression
and decompression since 1.21.14.

Also the Ubuntu zstd implementation did not have multi-threaded support
at all, the one implemented in dpkg 1.21.18 does have explicit
multi-threaded support for _compression_, but AFIUI (from zstd code and
its API being used in libdpkg) not for decompression.

>  It reduces a lot of time for package installation.

> * So, if we change {data,control}.tar file format in .deb from xz to zst,
>   we can reduce package installation time than ever since less decompression
>   time. It saves our lifetime a bit :)
> 
> * Downside: package file size is a bit larger than now, but enough bandwidth
>   will ease it for download time
>   - Not sure how repository size will be, need an experiment

Thus these seem rather hand-wavy.

And in addition support for zstd at least in Debian seems rather poor:

  https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/DebSupport

(Support in dpkg was mainly added to overcome the schism that Ubuntu
had created in the .deb format. :/)

Thanks,
Guillem



Re: [idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-16 Thread Stephan Lachnit
I think it's a good idea now that dpkg supports it [1]. Ubuntu already
did it years ago [2], and some non-deb based distros as well (e.g.
Fedora, Arch).

Cheers,
Stephan

[1]: https://bugs.debian.org/892664
[2]: https://balintreczey.hu/blog/hello-zstd-compressed-debs-in-ubuntu/



[idea]: Switch default compression from "xz" to "zstd" for .deb packages

2023-09-15 Thread Hideki Yamane
Hi,

 Today I want to propose you to change default compression format in .deb,
 {data,control}.tar."xz" to ."zst".

 I want to hear your thought about this.


# Compared to past change to xz proposal (in DebConf12)

  There are reasons why I propose this

  * More bandwidth
  * More CPUs
  * More storage bandwidth

## More bandwidth

 According to https://www.speedtest.net/global-index, broadband bandwidth
 in Nicaragua becomes almost 10x

 - 2012: 1.7Mbps
 - 2023: 17.4Mbps

 10x faster than past: it means that file size is not so much problem for us


## More CPUs

 2012: ThinkPad L530 has Core i5-3320M (2 cores, 4 threads)
 2023: ThinkPad L15 has Core i5-1335U (10 cores, 12 threads)

 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/817vs5294/Intel-i5-3320M-vs-Intel-i5-1335U
  - i5-3320M: single 1614, multicore 2654
  - i5-1335U: single 3650, multicore 18076 points.

 And, xz cannot use multi core CPUs for decompression but zstd can.
 It means that if we use xz, we just get 2x CPU power, but change to zst,
 we can get more than 10x CPU power than 2012.

 It reduces a lot of time for package installation.

## More storage bandwidth

 SSD + PCIe 3/4/5 is enough, not be a blocker for decompression, now.


# Conclusion

  * More bandwidth
  * More CPUs
  * More storage bandwidth
  
+

  * Still limited: our resources (time!)


* So, if we change {data,control}.tar file format in .deb from xz to zst,
  we can reduce package installation time than ever since less decompression
  time. It saves our lifetime a bit :)

* Downside: package file size is a bit larger than now, but enough bandwidth
  will ease it for download time
  - Not sure how repository size will be, need an experiment




-- 
Hideki Yamane 



Accepted deb-gview 0.3.3 (source) into unstable

2023-09-13 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Source: deb-gview
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.3) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * src/dvarchive.c:
 + Remove control.tar support for bzip2.
 + Fix for bug #718386 for deb(5) compliance.
 + Thanks to Guillem Jover for advising this fix.
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Accepted deb-gview 0.3.2 (source) into unstable

2023-09-05 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Source: deb-gview
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Closes: 718386
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Upload to unstable after Debian 12 release.
   * src/dvarchive.c:
 + Add support for bzip2, lzma, zstd compressed members (Closes: #718386).
   * src/main.c:
 + Add optional version argument.
   * configure.ac:
 + Update version number in AC_INIT.
 + Add deb-gview.1.xml to AC_CONFIG_FILES.
   * deb-gview.1.xml.in:
 + Renamed from deb-gview.1.xml.
 + Use @VERSION@ and @PACKAGE@ placeholders.
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Accepted coccinelle 1.1.1.deb-5 (source) into unstable

2023-08-27 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Version: 1.1.1.deb-5
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Stéphane Glondu 
Closes: 1050620
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.1.1.deb-5) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Stéphane Glondu ]
   * Team upload
 .
   [ Bastian Germann ]
   * Drop pcre support (Closes: #1050620)
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Accepted coccinelle 1.1.1.deb-4 (source) into unstable

2023-08-17 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Stéphane Glondu 
Closes: 1049958
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.1.1.deb-4) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload
   * Disable native code compilation on armhf (Closes: #1049958) and
 riscv64
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Accepted coccinelle 1.1.1.deb-3 (source) into unstable

2023-08-08 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Stéphane Glondu 
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.1.1.deb-3) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Stéphane Glondu ]
   * Team upload
   * Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.2
 .
   [ Debian Janitor ]
   * Remove constraints unnecessary since buster (oldstable):
 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on dh-ocaml (>= 1.0.3~).
 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on libmenhir-ocaml-dev (>=
   20090204.dfsg).
 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on libparmap-ocaml-dev (>=
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 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on menhir (>= 20090204.dfsg).
 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on ocaml-nox (>= 3.11.1-3~).
 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on pkg-config (>= 0.9.0).
 + coccinelle: Drop dependency on essential package dpkg (>= 1.17.14) in
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Accepted deb-gview 0.3.1 (source) into experimental

2023-06-01 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Source: deb-gview
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Version: 0.3.1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Closes: 742887
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * src/dvarchive.c:
 + Handle ar members beginning with _ (Closes: #742887).
 + Check for correct names of control.tar, data.tar members.
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NOVOBANCO- Seu PlN e Cart. de Deb/Cred foram bloqueados [APP DESATUALIZADO] debian-devel-portuguese@lists.debian.org

2023-02-11 Thread NOVOBANCO
  

2023-02-11 21:00

     

Estimado(a) Sr.(a),   

    

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Accepted deb-gview 0.3.0 (source) into unstable

2023-01-24 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2023 15:38:50 +0100
Source: deb-gview
Architecture: source
Version: 0.3.0
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Closes: 967307
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.3.0) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * AUTHORS, NEWS: Update for GTK3 port and new maintainer.
   * configure.ac:
 + Check for gtk+3.0 over gtk+2.0.
 + Update version to 0.3.0.
   * README: Update source repo information.
   * desktop/deb-gview-desktop.in.in: Add keywords.
   * src/callbacks.c: Port for GTK3 (Closes: #967307).
   * src/callbacks.h: Port for GTK3.
   * src/dvpreview.c: Port for GTK3.
   * src/interface.c:
 + Port for GTK3.
 + Add myself to About and Credits.
   * src/support.c: Port for GTK3.
   * debian/control:
 + Change dependency from libgtk2.0-dev to libgtk-3-dev.
 + Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.2.
   * debian/copyright: Add myself and update year to 2023.
   * debian/rules:
 + Add hardening flag.
 + Override dh_installchangelogs to remove lintian warning and install both
   Debian and upstream changelogs.
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Accepted deb-gview 0.2.11.3 (source) into unstable

2022-12-01 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:04:23 +0100
Source: deb-gview
Architecture: source
Version: 0.2.11.3
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Josef Schneider 
Changed-By: Josef Schneider 
Closes: 835906
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.2.11.3) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Adopt package (Closes: #835906)
   * debian/control: Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.1.
   * debian/copyright: Add 2022 line.
 .
   [ Boyuan Yang ]
   * debian/changelog: Try to fix format.
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Accepted coccinelle 1.1.1.deb-2 (source) into unstable

2022-11-10 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 11:21:48 +0100
Source: coccinelle
Architecture: source
Version: 1.1.1.deb-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Ralf Treinen 
Closes: 1023653
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.1.1.deb-2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * d/rules: force configuration for python3. Thanks to Uwe Kleine-König
 for the patch (closes: #1023653).
   * Standards-Version 4.6.1 (no change)
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Accepted yarsync 0.1.1+deb-2 (source) into unstable

2022-09-30 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2022 10:48:15 +0530
Source: yarsync
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Version: 0.1.1+deb-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Python Team 
Changed-By: Nilesh Patra 
Changes:
 yarsync (0.1.1+deb-2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload.
 + Source-only upload for testing migration.
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Accepted yarsync 0.1.1+deb-1 (source all) into experimental

2022-09-30 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Python Team 
Changed-By: Josenilson Ferreira da Silva 
Description:
 yarsync- file sync and backup too
Closes: 1014317
Changes:
 yarsync (0.1.1+deb-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * Initial release. (Closes: #1014317)
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Accepted uqm-content 0.8.0+deb-1 (source all) into unstable

2022-09-02 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 18:46:37 +0200
Source: uqm-content
Binary: uqm-content uqm-music uqm-voice
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.8.0+deb-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Games Team 
Changed-By: Stephen Kitt 
Description:
 uqm-content - The Ur-Quan Masters - Game data files
 uqm-music  - The Ur-Quan Masters - Game music files
 uqm-voice  - The Ur-Quan Masters - Voice files
Changes:
 uqm-content (0.8.0+deb-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Matija Nalis ]
   * New upstream release. Requires new uqm.
   * Use upstream .uqm files directly to be more compatible with addons;
 do not unpack them as it requires problematic patches and saves only
 very little bandwidth
   * As we no longer unpack/repack .uqm files, we no longer depend on cdbs
 and unzip
 .
   [ Stephen Kitt ]
   * Adopt the package for the games team.
   * Drop obsolete Conflicts.
   * Bump debian/watch to version 4.
   * Rewrite debian/copyright in machine-readable format.
   * Set “Rules-Requires-Root: no”.
   * Override the lintian warning about the leading article.
   * Standards-Version 4.6.1, no further change required.
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Accepted deepin-deb-installer 5.12.4-1 (source) into unstable

2022-07-14 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 13:46:16 +0800
Source: deepin-deb-installer
Architecture: source
Version: 5.12.4-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Deepin Packaging Team 

Changed-By: Clay Stan 
Changes:
 deepin-deb-installer (5.12.4-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release 5.12.4.
   * debian/control:
 + Add build-dep: libpolkit-qt5-1-dev.
 + Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.1.0.
   * debian/copyright:
 + Update Upstream-Contact.
 + Add new files copyright information.
 + Delete unless copyright information;
   * debian/upstream/metadata:
 + Update Bug-Database and Bug-Submit address.
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deb-porterbox (was: Re: No mips64el porterbox?)

2022-03-01 Thread Guillem Jover
Hi!

On Tue, 2022-03-01 at 10:28:28 +0100, Julien Puydt wrote:
> one of my package has a failure on mips64el and upstream is ready to
> help me find the cause and debug the issue.
> 
> Unfortunately, on https://db.debian.org/machines.cgi I only see five
> developer machines on this architecture -- all buildd!
> 
> Is there really no mips64el porterbox, or is it only a transitory
> situation?

As others have mentioned there's one such box. You can use the
following script to get the available porterbox for any arch:

  <https://www.hadrons.org/~guillem/debian/scripts/deb-porterbox>

I'll check whether I did submit that to something like devscripts,
which I cannot recall.

Thanks,
Guillem



Accepted golang-github-knqyf263-go-deb-version 0.0~git20190517.09fca49-2 (source) into unstable

2022-01-18 Thread Debian FTP Masters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:25:42 +0900
Source: golang-github-knqyf263-go-deb-version
Architecture: source
Version: 0.0~git20190517.09fca49-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Go Packaging Team 

Changed-By: Nobuhiro Iwamatsu 
Changes:
 golang-github-knqyf263-go-deb-version (0.0~git20190517.09fca49-2) unstable; 
urgency=medium
 .
   * Update d/control.
 - Fix Vcs-Browser and Vcs-Git.
   * Update d/gitlab-ci.yml.
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Accepted coccinelle 1.1.1.deb-1 (source) into unstable

2021-12-04 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 17:10:10 +0100
Source: coccinelle
Architecture: source
Version: 1.1.1.deb-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian OCaml Maintainers 
Changed-By: Stéphane Glondu 
Changes:
 coccinelle (1.1.1.deb-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload
   * New upstream release
   * Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.0
   * Update debian/watch
   * Fix debian/gbp.conf
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Accepted deepin-deb-installer 5.8.1-1 (source) into unstable

2021-11-10 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:49:52 -0500
Source: deepin-deb-installer
Architecture: source
Version: 5.8.1-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Deepin Packaging Team 

Changed-By: Boyuan Yang 
Changes:
 deepin-deb-installer (5.8.1-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload.
   * New upstream release 5.8.1.
   * debian/rules: Force non-parallel build to fit low-memory buildd
 architectures like mipsel.
   * debian/patches: Refresh patches.
 + Add patch to fix missing unistd.h header in PackageStatus.cpp.
   * debian/control: Add new build-dependency deepin-gettext-tools.
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Accepted deepin-deb-installer 5.7.0.17-1 (source) into unstable

2021-11-09 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:01:55 -0500
Source: deepin-deb-installer
Architecture: source
Version: 5.7.0.17-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Deepin Packaging Team 

Changed-By: Boyuan Yang 
Changes:
 deepin-deb-installer (5.7.0.17-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload.
 .
   [ Clay Stan ]
   * New upstream version 5.7.0.17.
 .
   [ Boyuan Yang ]
   * debian/control: Drop Yangfl from uploaders list as requested.
   * debian/control: Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.0.
   * debian/control: Update build-dependency list.
   * debian/patches: Disable patches for now, non-standard googletest
 is needed.
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Accepted deb-gview 0.2.11.2 (source) into unstable

2021-11-07 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Hash: SHA512

Format: 1.8
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 13:57:07 -0500
Source: deb-gview
Architecture: source
Version: 0.2.11.2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: high
Maintainer: Debian QA Group 
Changed-By: Boyuan Yang 
Closes: 998508
Changes:
 deb-gview (0.2.11.2) unstable; urgency=high
 .
   * QA upload.
 .
   [ Debian Janitor ]
   * Remove constraints unnecessary since buster:
 + Build-Depends: Drop versioned constraint on intltool, libarchive-dev and
   libglib2.0-dev.
 .
   [ Boyuan Yang ]
   * configure.ac: Refresh to fix FTBFS (Closes: #998508)
   * debian/control: Bump Standards-Version to 4.6.0.
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Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-11-03 Thread Daniel Leidert
Am Donnerstag, dem 28.10.2021 um 11:58 +0300 schrieb Uladzimir Bely:
> 
> I need to cache outside of schroot these .deb files that were downloaded by 
> apt. They are supposed to be used for creaing a local partial debian 
> repository, so that the second build will use this local repo instead of 
> internet one.

I use a caching proxy for that (squid-deb-proxy). There is also various tools
(e.g. apt-auto-proxy, squid-deb-proxy-client) to detect proxies automatically,
which might require some special network setups in the chroot/container/VM
though. Otherwise just set the proxy via Acquire::http::Proxy
(/etc/sbuild/chroot//etc/apt/apt.conf.d/30proxy) or something similar.


I use that for sbuild chroots, autopkgtest containers and VMs, and even when
testing custom installer CDs.

HTH and regards, Daniel
-- 
Regards,
Daniel Leidert  | https://www.wgdd.de/
GPG-Key RSA4096 / BEED4DED5544A4C03E283DC74BCD0567C296D05D
GPG-Key ED25519 / BD3C132D8B3805D1808123AB7ACE00941E338C78

https://www.fiverr.com/dleidert
https://www.patreon.com/join/dleidert


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Re: Re: Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-11-03 Thread Uladzimir Bely
I investigated $apt_keep_downloaded_packages=1 and found that this feature was 
added in more recent version of sbuild than debian `buster` provides (https://
bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?att=1;bug=933723 is a bug where it was 
solved)

Probably, that's why I couldn't get any results under `buster` host - apt 
cache is hardcoded to be cleaned by sbuild after installing dependencies.

So, as I understood, the only way to cache dependency packages under `buster` 
is to download them in some external way.

-- 
Uladzimir Bely
Promwad Ltd.
External service provider of ilbers GmbH
Maria-Merian-Str. 8
85521 Ottobrunn, Germany
+49 (89) 122 67 24-0
Commercial register Munich, HRB 214197
General Manager: Baurzhan Ismagulov




Re: Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-10-29 Thread Tobias Frost
On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 07:11:05PM +0300, Uladzimir Bely wrote:
> Thanks for the answer
> 
> > You have not explained why you don't want to use a caching proxy like apt-
> cacher-ng.
> 
> The question appeared while developing for Isar, a tool build create debian-
> based distro for embedded systems. In two words, it's similar to Buildroot, 
> Yocto and others, but it uses official Debian packages plus allows to build 
> own customer packages.
> 
> Currently it uses some own set of scripts to download dependencies, install 
> them is build chroot and build the package. Every .deb that was downloaded 
> during system build is cached internally. So, for the second build it's 
> possible to create a local repo from these stored files and do everything 
> (e.g 
> bootstrapping, building custom packages, rootfs generation) not from some 
> remote repo (e.g. http://ftp.debian.org), but from this local one (file://
> foo).

> I'm currently trying to switch our custom build system to sbuild one, but I 
> faced a problem that the dependencies downloaded by sbuild scripts are not 
> available in form of .deb files.

If it does not need to be sbuild, my pbuilder setup has an hook that
allows me to have a local directory as apt repo for pbuilder. Any deb placed
in this directory will be available during pbuilder build...
Kind of 
https://wiki.debian.org/PbuilderTricks#How_to_include_local_packages_in_the_build,
but my setup uses just one directory, not a per-project one..

-- 
tobi



Re: Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-10-28 Thread Uladzimir Bely
Hello.

Thanks for the idea with $apt_keep_downloaded_packages=1. I'll try to play 
with it.

Previously I tried to mount external directory to /var/cache/apt/archives 
inside schroot, but finally found it almost empty (only some .lock file was 
there, AFAIR). As I understand, that it was really used, but later everything 
downloaded was deleted. I hope, the option above will help me with it.

-- 
Uladzimir Bely
Promwad Ltd.
External service provider of ilbers GmbH
Maria-Merian-Str. 8
85521 Ottobrunn, Germany
+49 (89) 122 67 24-0
Commercial register Munich, HRB 214197
General Manager: Baurzhan Ismagulov





Re: Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-10-28 Thread Uladzimir Bely
Thanks for the answer

> You have not explained why you don't want to use a caching proxy like apt-
cacher-ng.

The question appeared while developing for Isar, a tool build create debian-
based distro for embedded systems. In two words, it's similar to Buildroot, 
Yocto and others, but it uses official Debian packages plus allows to build 
own customer packages.

Currently it uses some own set of scripts to download dependencies, install 
them is build chroot and build the package. Every .deb that was downloaded 
during system build is cached internally. So, for the second build it's 
possible to create a local repo from these stored files and do everything (e.g 
bootstrapping, building custom packages, rootfs generation) not from some 
remote repo (e.g. http://ftp.debian.org), but from this local one (file://
foo).

I'm currently trying to switch our custom build system to sbuild one, but I 
faced a problem that the dependencies downloaded by sbuild scripts are not 
available in form of .deb files.

Anyway, your advice uses a bit more native approach that is currently used in 
Isar, so I'll look at it (or something similar).

Also, in parallel thread I was adviced to use $apt_keep_downloaded_packages=1 
option that might be also useful for me.

-- 
Uladzimir Bely
Promwad Ltd.
External service provider of ilbers GmbH
Maria-Merian-Str. 8
85521 Ottobrunn, Germany
+49 (89) 122 67 24-0
Commercial register Munich, HRB 214197
General Manager: Baurzhan Ismagulov




Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-10-28 Thread Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Hi,

Quoting Uladzimir Bely (2021-10-28 10:58:26)
> When building a package with sbuild, some packages (dependencies of package 
> being built) are internally downloaded and installed by apt. After the build 
> finished, schroot is cleaned again (while everything is done in overlay)
> 
> I need to cache outside of schroot these .deb files that were downloaded by 
> apt. They are supposed to be used for creaing a local partial debian 
> repository, so that the second build will use this local repo instead of 
> internet one.
> 
> Currently it's done by parsing dependencies and downloading them 
> independently, but I suppose there should be some more straightforward way to 
> get them using sbuild.
> 
> I investigated and tried several options for sbuild (like 
> --purge-build=never, 
> --purge-deps=never, --purge-session=never), tried to find .deb files during 
> the build using at some stages (--pre-build-commands="ls -la /var/cache/apt/
> archives/", --starting-build-commands="ls -la /var/cache/apt/archives/", --
> finished-build-commands="ls -la /var/cache/apt/archives/") - but I couldn't 
> see any .deb files inside the schroot.
> 
> I previously asked in debian-user maillist 
> (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/10/msg01044.html), but the tips I 
> got (like using caching proxy) are 
> not what I really need. While sbuild already does the thing (downloading/
> installing dependencies), I suppose there should be a way to (at least) see
> the *.deb files downloaded in '/var/cache/apt/archives' inside schroot.

sbuild maintainer here. You have not explained why you don't want to use a
caching proxy like apt-cacher-ng. But using a caching proxy is also what I
would suggest you use.

If you don't want to use that, here is how you download only the packages you
need to satisfy the build depenencies of a particular source package:

cat << END > /tmp/apt.conf
Apt::Architecture "amd64";
Dir "/tmp/apt";
Dir::Etc::trusted "/etc/apt/trusted.gpg";
Dir::Etc::trustedparts "/etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/";
Apt::Get::Download-Only true;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;
END
mkdir -p /tmp/apt/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ /tmp/apt/etc/apt/sources.list.d/ 
/tmp/apt/var/lib/dpkg /tmp/apt/var/cache/apt/archives/partial 
/tmp/apt/etc/apt/preferences.d/
touch /tmp/apt/var/lib/dpkg/status
cat << END > /tmp/apt/etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main
deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main
END
APT_CONFIG=/tmp/apt.conf apt update
APT_CONFIG=/tmp/apt.conf apt-get dist-upgrade
APT_CONFIG=/tmp/apt.conf apt-get build-dep hello

Now all your packages to build src:hello are in
/tmp/apt/var/cache/apt/archives. No need to waste CPU cycles on a full package
build if all you want is to download a certain set of binary packages.

Thanks!

cheers, josch

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Re: sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-10-28 Thread Andrey Rahmatullin
On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 11:58:26AM +0300, Uladzimir Bely wrote:
> When building a package with sbuild, some packages (dependencies of package 
> being built) are internally downloaded and installed by apt. After the build 
> finished, schroot is cleaned again (while everything is done in overlay)
> 
> I need to cache outside of schroot these .deb files that were downloaded by 
> apt. 
A caching proxy is indeed a good answer for this question but if for some
reason you don't want to use it, you can bind-mount some directory from
outside the chroot as /var/cache/apt/archives, e.g. via
/etc/schroot/sbuild/fstab, and set $apt_keep_downloaded_packages=1.


-- 
WBR, wRAR


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sbuild/schroot: need to get .deb files internally downloaded as package dependencies

2021-10-28 Thread Uladzimir Bely
When building a package with sbuild, some packages (dependencies of package 
being built) are internally downloaded and installed by apt. After the build 
finished, schroot is cleaned again (while everything is done in overlay)

I need to cache outside of schroot these .deb files that were downloaded by 
apt. They are supposed to be used for creaing a local partial debian 
repository, so that the second build will use this local repo instead of 
internet one.

Currently it's done by parsing dependencies and downloading them 
independently, but I suppose there should be some more straightforward way to 
get them using sbuild.

I investigated and tried several options for sbuild (like --purge-build=never, 
--purge-deps=never, --purge-session=never), tried to find .deb files during 
the build using at some stages (--pre-build-commands="ls -la /var/cache/apt/
archives/", --starting-build-commands="ls -la /var/cache/apt/archives/", --
finished-build-commands="ls -la /var/cache/apt/archives/") - but I couldn't 
see any .deb files inside the schroot.

I previously asked in debian-user maillist 
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/10/msg01044.html), but the tips I 
got (like using caching proxy) are 
not what I really need. While sbuild already does the thing (downloading/
installing dependencies), I suppose there should be a way to (at least) see 
the *.deb files downloaded in '/var/cache/apt/archives' inside schroot.

-- 
Uladzimir Bely
Promwad Ltd.
External service provider of ilbers GmbH
Maria-Merian-Str. 8
85521 Ottobrunn, Germany
+49 (89) 122 67 24-0
Commercial register Munich, HRB 214197
General Manager: Baurzhan Ismagulov




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-13 Thread David Kalnischkies
On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 03:10:27AM +, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM David Kalnischkies wrote:
> > Because this thread started with the idea to switch the default of d-i
> > and co to another URI. If you target only apt then you still need
> > a solution for d-i and a way to convert whatever d-i had into what apt
> > gets in the end (of the installation).
> 
> ISTR the future of creating new Debian installations is to move from
> debootstrap to dpkg/apt. As an interim step, debootstrap could move
> from doing its own downloads to passing the appropriate
> APT_CONFIG/DPKG_ROOT/etc to `apt download`.
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/Spec/InstallBootstrap

The spec deals with the installation of the essential set.
APT isn't essential – it is 'only' one of the first packages installed
after the bootstrap is done, usually at least.

Moving {,c}debootstrap to use apt means you increase the system
requirements from "can execute debootstrap" all the way up to "is
a fully bootstrapped Debian-based system". At which point you could
just use mmdebstrap instead of debootstrap and be done.

I am not involved with d-i to know if they would plan such a move, but
I have at least never heard of it and it seems outside the linked spec.
You might have confused this with the pipe-dream of obsoleting
mmdebstrap at some far away in the future point by folding it into apt
directly. The spec is one (of the many) pre-requirements for that.


Even if we do, that would move the goal post only slightly as you still
have the problem that the conf used to create the system might very well
not be the conf that can be used by the created system (as a trivial
example some old apt versions do not support https). That doesn't really
change regardless of using anna, debootstrap, apt or whatever else.


Best regards

David Kalnischkies

P.S.: Having apt be involved in its own bootstrap reminds me of that
time when I saved myself from drowning in a swamp by pulling on my hair…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Munchausen#Fictional_character


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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-12 Thread Holger Levsen
On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 03:10:27AM +, Paul Wise wrote:
> ISTR the future of creating new Debian installations is to move from
> debootstrap to dpkg/apt. As an interim step, debootstrap could [...]

I've switched all my occurances of using debootstrap to mmdebstrap and
am a very happy user of it.


-- 
cheers,
Holger

 ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
 ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
 ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀  OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
 ⠈⠳⣄


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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-11 Thread Paul Wise
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 6:03 PM David Kalnischkies wrote:

> Because this thread started with the idea to switch the default of d-i
> and co to another URI. If you target only apt then you still need
> a solution for d-i and a way to convert whatever d-i had into what apt
> gets in the end (of the installation).

ISTR the future of creating new Debian installations is to move from
debootstrap to dpkg/apt. As an interim step, debootstrap could move
from doing its own downloads to passing the appropriate
APT_CONFIG/DPKG_ROOT/etc to `apt download`.

https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/Spec/InstallBootstrap

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Michael Stone

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 08:02:42PM +0200, David Kalnischkies wrote:

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:08:38AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:33:42PM +0200, David Kalnischkies wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 08:53:21AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > The only thing I could see that would be a net gain would be to generalizes
> > sources.list more. Instead of having a user select a specific protocol and
> > path, allow the user to just select high-level objects. Make this a new
> > pseudo-protocol for backward compatibility, and introduce something like
> >   deb apt:// suite component[s]
> > so the default could be something like
> >   deb apt:// bullseye main
> >   deb apt:// bullseye/updates main
> > then the actual protocols, servers, and paths could be managed by various
> > plugins and overridden by configuration directives in apt.conf.d. For
>
> In this scheme the Debian bullseye main repo has the same 'URI' as the
> Darts bullseye main repo. So, you would need to at least include an
> additional unique identifier of the likes of Debian and Darts, but
> who is to assign those URNs?
> (Currently we are piggybacking on the domain name system for this)

I have no idea what darts is, so I don't have an answer. :)


"Darts" was just a play on "bullseye". It is not hard to imagine
a repository which has the same suite and component(s) but is not
Debian itself. As a pseudo-random [= its in an other topic here] real
example you can take Wine (https://dl.winehq.org/wine-builds/debian/).
So to what is "deb apt:// bullseye main" referring? Debian or Wine?

And to pre-empt the most common response: As an apt dev I can assure you
that we won't accept a solution involving "I am on Debian, so it means
Debian" as that is impossible to correctly guess programmatically (for
example on derivatives using a small overlay repo).


I'd considered adding a scope to the model, e.g., apt://debian.org but 
removed it for simplicity. If that was a desired feature then there'd 
either have to be some sort of well-known path or such a distribution 
would need to provide a policy plugin for that scope. Alternatively, 
they could just use the existing http/https/whatever syntax in 
sources.list for their overlay if they didn't want to bother. Same for 
third party repos. 


> > their thing, and a plugin like auto-apt-proxy can override defaults to do
> > something more complicated, using more policy-friendly .d configurations
> > rather than figuring out a way to rewrite some other package's configuration
> > file.
>
> JFTR: auto-apt-proxy has nothing to do with sources. It is true that
> apt-cacher-ng (and perhaps others) have a mode of operation in which you
> prefix the URI of your (in that case caching) proxy to the URI of the
> actual repo, but that isn't how a proxy usually operates and/or is
> configured.

I have no idea what you're saying here.


And I have no idea if you know what you are talking about.

auto-apt-proxy already uses an interface apt provides to configure the
proxy at runtime. It isn't in the business of modifying sources.list nor
has it any interest in that. So you using it as an example for a plugin
who could use your proposed scheme to modify the sources at runtime
makes no sense.


The concern I was responding to was that switching to https breaks the 
case of using auto-apt-proxy to cache the transaction. Just turning the 
proxy on and off isn't sufficient if the default sources.list uses https 
instead of http--you'd currently have to both turn the proxy on *and* 
change sources.list from http to https. Hence my musings on whether it's 
possible/desirable to separate the configuration of what to use as a 
transport from the configuration of what repository is desired.


More generally, if we're talking about changing the default way that 
people interact with debian it just seems like a good time to ponder 
whether specifying sources the same way we did in 1998 makes sense given 
how many changes there have been to expectations about how we use
internet resources. Maybe the answer is yes, and I'm not arguing that 
there has to be a change or that what I threw out as a possibility is 
the right answer, but it does seem worth considering.




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread David Kalnischkies
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:08:38AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:33:42PM +0200, David Kalnischkies wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 08:53:21AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > > The only thing I could see that would be a net gain would be to 
> > > generalizes
> > > sources.list more. Instead of having a user select a specific protocol and
> > > path, allow the user to just select high-level objects. Make this a new
> > > pseudo-protocol for backward compatibility, and introduce something like
> > >   deb apt:// suite component[s]
> > > so the default could be something like
> > >   deb apt:// bullseye main
> > >   deb apt:// bullseye/updates main
> > > then the actual protocols, servers, and paths could be managed by various
> > > plugins and overridden by configuration directives in apt.conf.d. For
> > 
> > In this scheme the Debian bullseye main repo has the same 'URI' as the
> > Darts bullseye main repo. So, you would need to at least include an
> > additional unique identifier of the likes of Debian and Darts, but
> > who is to assign those URNs?
> > (Currently we are piggybacking on the domain name system for this)
> 
> I have no idea what darts is, so I don't have an answer. :)

"Darts" was just a play on "bullseye". It is not hard to imagine
a repository which has the same suite and component(s) but is not
Debian itself. As a pseudo-random [= its in an other topic here] real
example you can take Wine (https://dl.winehq.org/wine-builds/debian/).
So to what is "deb apt:// bullseye main" referring? Debian or Wine?

And to pre-empt the most common response: As an apt dev I can assure you
that we won't accept a solution involving "I am on Debian, so it means
Debian" as that is impossible to correctly guess programmatically (for
example on derivatives using a small overlay repo).


> > Also, but just as an aside, whatever clever system you think of apt
> > could be using, you still need a rather simple system for the likes of
> > tools which come before apt like the installers/bootstrappers as they
> > are not (all) using apt, especially not in the very early stages, and
> > a mapping between them.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think I need that? The goal of my musings is to

Because this thread started with the idea to switch the default of d-i
and co to another URI. If you target only apt then you still need
a solution for d-i and a way to convert whatever d-i had into what apt
gets in the end (of the installation).

The configuration option which only works with apt tools already
exists in the form of the mirror method…


> > > their thing, and a plugin like auto-apt-proxy can override defaults to do
> > > something more complicated, using more policy-friendly .d configurations
> > > rather than figuring out a way to rewrite some other package's 
> > > configuration
> > > file.
> > 
> > JFTR: auto-apt-proxy has nothing to do with sources. It is true that
> > apt-cacher-ng (and perhaps others) have a mode of operation in which you
> > prefix the URI of your (in that case caching) proxy to the URI of the
> > actual repo, but that isn't how a proxy usually operates and/or is
> > configured.
> 
> I have no idea what you're saying here.

And I have no idea if you know what you are talking about.

auto-apt-proxy already uses an interface apt provides to configure the
proxy at runtime. It isn't in the business of modifying sources.list nor
has it any interest in that. So you using it as an example for a plugin
who could use your proposed scheme to modify the sources at runtime
makes no sense.


Best regards

David Kalnischkies


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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Michael Stone

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:33:42PM +0200, David Kalnischkies wrote:

On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 08:53:21AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

The only thing I could see that would be a net gain would be to generalizes
sources.list more. Instead of having a user select a specific protocol and
path, allow the user to just select high-level objects. Make this a new
pseudo-protocol for backward compatibility, and introduce something like
  deb apt:// suite component[s]
so the default could be something like
  deb apt:// bullseye main
  deb apt:// bullseye/updates main
then the actual protocols, servers, and paths could be managed by various
plugins and overridden by configuration directives in apt.conf.d. For


In this scheme the Debian bullseye main repo has the same 'URI' as the
Darts bullseye main repo. So, you would need to at least include an
additional unique identifier of the likes of Debian and Darts, but
who is to assign those URNs?
(Currently we are piggybacking on the domain name system for this)


I have no idea what darts is, so I don't have an answer. :)


Also, but just as an aside, whatever clever system you think of apt
could be using, you still need a rather simple system for the likes of
tools which come before apt like the installers/bootstrappers as they
are not (all) using apt, especially not in the very early stages, and
a mapping between them.


I'm not sure why you think I need that? The goal of my musings is to 
separate the definition of what set of debian packages to use from the 
decision of how to get those packages *when using apt*, so that there 
are fewer things to consider in the common case, and to allow new 
capabilities in uncommon cases. If someone's using some other tool, why 
would anyone assume that the same configuration syntax would work? Just 
use the same configuration file you use now, and ignore all of this. If 
you want configurations to match across tools, then ignore all of this 
again and keep the same sources.list syntax you're already using that 
presumably does what you want.



If someone wants to use tor by default but fall back to https if it's
unreachable, they can do that. If someone wants to use a local proxy via
http but https if they're not on their local network, they can do that. New
installations could default to https, existing installations can keep doing


You can do most of the fallback part with the mirror method backed by
a local file. It is of no concern to apt how that file comes to be, so
you could create it out of a massive amount of options or simply by
hand. I do think if the creation is tool-based it shouldn't be apt
as I envision far too many unique snowflakes for a one-size-fits-all
approach.


The intent would be to make it easier to plug other tools into apt,
not to have the apt codebase do everything.


their thing, and a plugin like auto-apt-proxy can override defaults to do
something more complicated, using more policy-friendly .d configurations
rather than figuring out a way to rewrite some other package's configuration
file.


JFTR: auto-apt-proxy has nothing to do with sources. It is true that
apt-cacher-ng (and perhaps others) have a mode of operation in which you
prefix the URI of your (in that case caching) proxy to the URI of the
actual repo, but that isn't how a proxy usually operates and/or is
configured.


I have no idea what you're saying here. 



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Simon Richter

Hi,

On 10.09.21 01:46, Paul Wise wrote:


Another important argument is that it creates a dependency on
third-party commercial CDNs, and their *continued* sponsorship.



This dependency on external providers is unavoidable, Debian
definitely cannot afford to run our own CDN at the scale needed to
support our existing userbase. For example the security mirrors
struggled with Linux kernel security updates, so security.d.o switched
to a commercial CDN. Also, we are dependent on continued sponsorship
for all of our infrastructure, paying for all of our hosting is likely
not feasible.


Yes -- and mirrors have traditionally been provided by third parties. 
What is new about the CDNs is that there are rather few of those, and 
this centralization aspect is what worries me.



Personally I'd like to see a larger variety of Debian delivery
mechanisms; copy Debian/snapshot to archive.org, create a multi-distro
FLOSS CDN, bring back httpredir, DebTorrent and apt-p2p, add an i2p
mirror, use IPFS and content oriented networking etc. Michael Stone's
apt://debian idea seems like a good way to move in that direction
while adding protocol agility.


Yes, absolutely -- and we especially want to have a better solution for 
containers, because my expectation is that a large fraction of our 
traffic is just people not bothering to set up caching.


   Simon



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread David Kalnischkies
On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 08:53:21AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> The only thing I could see that would be a net gain would be to generalizes
> sources.list more. Instead of having a user select a specific protocol and
> path, allow the user to just select high-level objects. Make this a new
> pseudo-protocol for backward compatibility, and introduce something like
>   deb apt:// suite component[s]
> so the default could be something like
>   deb apt:// bullseye main
>   deb apt:// bullseye/updates main
> then the actual protocols, servers, and paths could be managed by various
> plugins and overridden by configuration directives in apt.conf.d. For

In this scheme the Debian bullseye main repo has the same 'URI' as the
Darts bullseye main repo. So, you would need to at least include an
additional unique identifier of the likes of Debian and Darts, but
who is to assign those URNs?
(Currently we are piggybacking on the domain name system for this)

Also, but just as an aside, whatever clever system you think of apt
could be using, you still need a rather simple system for the likes of
tools which come before apt like the installers/bootstrappers as they
are not (all) using apt, especially not in the very early stages, and
a mapping between them.


> If someone wants to use tor by default but fall back to https if it's
> unreachable, they can do that. If someone wants to use a local proxy via
> http but https if they're not on their local network, they can do that. New
> installations could default to https, existing installations can keep doing

You can do most of the fallback part with the mirror method backed by
a local file. It is of no concern to apt how that file comes to be, so
you could create it out of a massive amount of options or simply by
hand. I do think if the creation is tool-based it shouldn't be apt
as I envision far too many unique snowflakes for a one-size-fits-all
approach.

(The Tor to https fallback can be done already if we talk onion services
 to others. You can't fall out of Tor – or redirect into it – through as
 that would allow bad actors to discover who you are/that you have an
 operational tor client installed. proxy configuration you can already
 change programmatically on the fly – a job auto-apt-proxy implements –,
 changing the mirror file with a hook from your network manager would
 be equally easy.)


> their thing, and a plugin like auto-apt-proxy can override defaults to do
> something more complicated, using more policy-friendly .d configurations
> rather than figuring out a way to rewrite some other package's configuration
> file.

JFTR: auto-apt-proxy has nothing to do with sources. It is true that
apt-cacher-ng (and perhaps others) have a mode of operation in which you
prefix the URI of your (in that case caching) proxy to the URI of the
actual repo, but that isn't how a proxy usually operates and/or is
configured.


Best regards

David Kalnischkies


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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Michael Stone

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 09:33:56AM +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:

Laptops of end-user systems are the target, but also developers. When
people gather at a place (conference, hackspace, private meetup, etc.)
downloading of .debs should just work quickly by default. Many such
sites could easily provide a local cache and a number even do. BSPs tend
to have a blackboard with information including the local mirror to use.
Seriously, how many people change their mirror when they go to a BSP? If
we installed auto-apt-proxy by default, much of the local caching would
just work.


I think you'd get a lot of pushback on installing auto-apt-proxy by 
default. If that's a proposal, make it seperately and not in this 
thread. 


The thing we seem to be disagreeing on is what is more important? https
by default or quick and efficient downloads? Some may think that our
CDN can handle the load just fine and the effects of caching are
peanuts. I can attest that those peanuts are 4TB/year (equivalent to 8
days waiting for downloads) for me.



I see that we've given up on a global network of independently-managed
mirrors and that CDNs are way easier at this time. While initially CDNs
had bad reliability issues, those have completely vanished in my
experience. On the other hand, local caching still outperforms CDNs by a
factor of 10 or so. I'd love to make it the default.


I use a cache out of habit and to be a good netizen, but my internet 
connection is fast enough these days that it's basically a noop at best 
and a slight slowdown at worst. I had to move the cache from slow/cheap 
spinning disk to reasonably fast SSD to get to that point. If you're 
downloading the same stuff over and over (e.g., for testing or somesuch) 
it can be a big win, especially for VMs on a virtualized network 
connection, or if you're managing a large infrastructure, but 
for normal use with a couple of instances? It's just not worth the 
trouble. 



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Michael Stone

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 12:00:57PM +0200, Timo Röhling wrote:

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-08 19:25]:
I think the issue isn't certificate validation, it's that https 
proxy requests are made via CONNECT rather than GET. You could 
theoretically rewrite the proxy mechanism to MITM the CONNECT, but 
that wouldn't be a drop-in replacement. I suppose you could instead 
add an apt option to pass the https request to the proxy via GET 
instead of using CONNECT, but I think that also won't necessarily 
work on an existing proxy.

apt-cacher-ng has a second mode of operation where you can prefix
the source URL with the proxy URL, i.e.

deb http://proxyhost:3142/deb.debian.org/debian unstable main

Maybe we could introduce this as an "official" APT proxy mode, where
http(s)://REPO gets replaced by http://PROXY_URL/REPO (and the proxy
can decide whether or not to fetch via HTTPS as an implementation
detail)?


I'd much rather see something more like I proposed earlier (splitting the 
selection of what suites/components to install from the policy of how to 
obtain them) rather than further layering+confusing these two concepts 
within sources.list.




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Timo Röhling

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-08 19:25]:
I think the issue isn't certificate validation, it's that https proxy 
requests are made via CONNECT rather than GET. You could theoretically 
rewrite the proxy mechanism to MITM the CONNECT, but that wouldn't be 
a drop-in replacement. I suppose you could instead add an apt option 
to pass the https request to the proxy via GET instead of using 
CONNECT, but I think that also won't necessarily work on an existing 
proxy.

apt-cacher-ng has a second mode of operation where you can prefix
the source URL with the proxy URL, i.e.

deb http://proxyhost:3142/deb.debian.org/debian unstable main

Maybe we could introduce this as an "official" APT proxy mode, where
http(s)://REPO gets replaced by http://PROXY_URL/REPO (and the proxy
can decide whether or not to fetch via HTTPS as an implementation
detail)?

Cheers
Timo

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀   ╭╮
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   │ Timo Röhling   │
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀   │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1  23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
⠈⠳⣄   ╰╯


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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Eduard Bloch
Hallo,
* Michael Stone [Wed, Sep 08 2021, 07:25:26PM]:
> On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 03:56:14PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> > On Wed, 2021-09-08 at 15:41 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > > On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 02:01:03PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> > > > So what do you suggest then? Tech-ctte as with merged-/usr? Or a
> > > > GR? Or
> > > > something else?
> > >
> > > I propose that the proponents pay the cost. In this case, it is a bit
> > > unclear what that means precisely (which likely is the reason they
> > > haven't done it already). At the very least though, apt install
> > > auto-apt-proxy should continue to work on a default installation in a
> > > sensible way.
> >
> > I can file a bug for auto-apt-proxy to include an apt.conf snippet
> > saying
> >
> >  Acquire::https::Verify-Peer false;
> >
> > That clearly makes it work again
>
> I think the issue isn't certificate validation, it's that https proxy
> requests are made via CONNECT rather than GET. You could theoretically
> rewrite the proxy mechanism to MITM the CONNECT, but that wouldn't be a
> drop-in replacement. I suppose you could instead add an apt option to pass
> the https request to the proxy via GET instead of using CONNECT, but I think

Precisely. Current handling of HTTPS on a caching proxy is either
impossible or PITA for the user, as long as a such mixed behavior is not
configurable.  apt-cacher-ng works around that by telling users to
disguise https URLs as HTTP with a special marker for protocol switch
(ugly, I know).

Also keep in mind that it off-loads the encryption work to the proxy,
but that might be even intentional.

> that also won't necessarily work on an existing proxy.

Speaking at least for ACNG, my assumption was that it would support that
but I was wrong. TODO created,
https://salsa.debian.org/blade/apt-cacher-ng/-/issues/11 .

> If we're imagining apt options, something like
> Acquire::https::Force-Proxy-HTTP true;
> would probably be more useful for this specific case (not that I think it's
> a great idea--too much potential for surprise).

I would make it a list of trusted proxy hosts and a special value ALL.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=994032 created.

Best regards,
Eduard.



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Ansgar
On Fri, 2021-09-10 at 09:33 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> If
> we installed auto-apt-proxy by default, much of the local caching
> would
> just work.

If you push for a local caching method to be used by default, apt
should always request (In)Release.gpg from a regular mirror (not auto-
discovered local cache), preferably via HTTPS; for subsequent data
(which apt can verify via (In)Release) a local mirror can be used,
falling back to the regular mirror when the data provided by the local
cache is not correct for any reason.

Especially at BSPs where people are likely to bootstrap new
environments (via debootstrap, for example for building packages) we
would allow downgrade attacks otherwise: (In)Release for stable
releases has no Valid-Until, so any initial (In)Release file can be
substituted by the cache operator for an older one which then refers to
known-vulnerable packages. (And I'm not sure debootstrap even checks
Valid-Until.)

Ansgar



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-10 Thread Helmut Grohne
On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 07:12:18PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> Why not simply automate setting it at install time using preseed? I'm
> honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy is--apparently
> someone who has an infrastructure including a proxy, possibly the ability to
> set dns records, etc., but can't change defaults at install time or via some
> sort of runtime configuration management?

I believe that the target audience is non-tech end-users. Most
orgnizations already optimized their way of downloading .debs via some
way (e.g. auto-apt-proxy) or another. As you point out, organizations
are easily able to deviate from defaults. They're not our primary target
with defaults.

Laptops of end-user systems are the target, but also developers. When
people gather at a place (conference, hackspace, private meetup, etc.)
downloading of .debs should just work quickly by default. Many such
sites could easily provide a local cache and a number even do. BSPs tend
to have a blackboard with information including the local mirror to use.
Seriously, how many people change their mirror when they go to a BSP? If
we installed auto-apt-proxy by default, much of the local caching would
just work.

The thing we seem to be disagreeing on is what is more important? https
by default or quick and efficient downloads? Some may think that our
CDN can handle the load just fine and the effects of caching are
peanuts. I can attest that those peanuts are 4TB/year (equivalent to 8
days waiting for downloads) for me.

I see that we've given up on a global network of independently-managed
mirrors and that CDNs are way easier at this time. While initially CDNs
had bad reliability issues, those have completely vanished in my
experience. On the other hand, local caching still outperforms CDNs by a
factor of 10 or so. I'd love to make it the default.

Helmut



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Paul Wise
On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:03 PM Simon Richter wrote:

> Another important argument is that it creates a dependency on
> third-party commercial CDNs, and their *continued* sponsorship.

This dependency on external providers is unavoidable, Debian
definitely cannot afford to run our own CDN at the scale needed to
support our existing userbase. For example the security mirrors
struggled with Linux kernel security updates, so security.d.o switched
to a commercial CDN. Also, we are dependent on continued sponsorship
for all of our infrastructure, paying for all of our hosting is likely
not feasible.

https://wiki.debian.org/ExternalEntities

> Debian is very conservative when spending money and generally shies away
> from recurring expenses because we do not want to find us in a situation
> where we are dependent on an external entity making a timely donation in
> order to keep operations running, so I wonder why we are that accepting
> of it in one of our core services, and I certainly don't think we should
> be adding additional roadblocks should we ever need to find an alternative.

DSA setup the CDN provider solution to give the Debian userbase a
better experience than having to choose a mirror and a better
experience than httpredir.d.o's redirect method. We have multiple CDN
providers to mitigate the dependency, and other providers who we
aren't yet using that are offering service. So, as much as I dislike
CDNs as a concept, I recognise that we currently need them and think
that we are able to handle loss of a CDN provider or two.

> We have a (crude) load-balancing framework in infrastructure we control
> that can point requests towards a set of untrusted mirrors, and while
> it's nice that we don't *need* to use this fallback plan, it is
> reassuring it is there.

httpredir.d.o no longer exists, it points at deb.d.o, so it would have
to be rebuilt if we were to need to switch away from CDNs.

Personally I'd like to see a larger variety of Debian delivery
mechanisms; copy Debian/snapshot to archive.org, create a multi-distro
FLOSS CDN, bring back httpredir, DebTorrent and apt-p2p, add an i2p
mirror, use IPFS and content oriented networking etc. Michael Stone's
apt://debian idea seems like a good way to move in that direction
while adding protocol agility.

> If they ask why we're not using HTTPS, yes: it helps clear up the
> misconception that anything with an "s" in it is secure and can be trusted.

The volume of questions about missing https means that it is more
efficient to just use https than to have to reply to new questions
about it.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Simon Richter

Hi,

On 04.09.21 22:12, Hideki Yamane wrote:


The TLS layer is not part of the security model, so we'd be teaching
users to look for the wrong thing, kind of like the "encrypted with SSL"
badges on web pages in the 90ies.



  Is there any strong reason to use HTTP than HTTPS now?


The strongest reason (IMO) in favor of unencrypted transmission is that 
it doesn't introduce a policy decision. The package "ca-certificates" 
must be installed and a checkmark set for the "mozilla/ISRG_Root_X1.crt" 
certificate, otherwise updates will break.


If we want to have HTTPS as default, we need additional logic to make 
sure certificates are installed and cannot be deinstalled (so Essential 
or a strong dependency chain from an Essential package) and that the 
certificate cannot be deactivated, or apt needs its own repository of 
trusted certificates.


With the current Docker images:

$ docker run --rm -it debian:bullseye
root@32529bf86cd3:/# sed -i -e s/http/https/ /etc/apt/sources.list
root@32529bf86cd3:/# apt update
Err:1 https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye InRelease
  Certificate verification failed: The certificate is NOT trusted. The 
certificate issuer is unknown.  Could not handshake: Error in the 
certificate verification. [IP: 199.232.138.132 443]
Err:2 https://security.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security 
InRelease
  Certificate verification failed: The certificate is NOT trusted. The 
certificate issuer is unknown.  Could not handshake: Error in the 
certificate verification. [IP: 151.101.66.132 443]

Err:3 https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates InRelease
  Certificate verification failed: The certificate is NOT trusted. The 
certificate issuer is unknown.  Could not handshake: Error in the 
certificate verification. [IP: 199.232.138.132 443]


So changing the default is not sufficient here, we'd need a lot of 
additional work and testing to ensure this works for everyone, not just 
the desktop users.


Another important argument is that it creates a dependency on 
third-party commercial CDNs, and their *continued* sponsorship.


Debian is very conservative when spending money and generally shies away 
from recurring expenses because we do not want to find us in a situation 
where we are dependent on an external entity making a timely donation in 
order to keep operations running, so I wonder why we are that accepting 
of it in one of our core services, and I certainly don't think we should 
be adding additional roadblocks should we ever need to find an alternative.


We have a (crude) load-balancing framework in infrastructure we control 
that can point requests towards a set of untrusted mirrors, and while 
it's nice that we don't *need* to use this fallback plan, it is 
reassuring it is there.



  Should we teach all our users (including non-tech) about "Secure APT"
  mechanism?


If they ask why we're not using HTTPS, yes: it helps clear up the 
misconception that anything with an "s" in it is secure and can be trusted.


Anyone who configures an additional source needs to know how the 
authentication mechanism works anyway, so we're not gaining anything 
there either.


   Simon



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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Timo Röhling

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-09 09:05]:
Because the controversy concerning changing the default is over 
whether it's reasonable for someone using auto-apt-proxy to have to 
manage additional configuration settings.

Ah, I understand your point now and I agree.
It would be an inconvenience, yes, not but much more.

Cheers
Timo

--
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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Michael Stone

On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 02:54:21PM +0200, Timo Röhling wrote:

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-09 08:32]:
I'm honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy 
is--apparently someone who has an infrastructure including a 
proxy, possibly the ability to set dns records, etc., but can't 
change defaults at install time or via some sort of runtime 
configuration management?

The same reason you might want to deploy WPAD instead of preconfiguring
proxy settings in web browsers: flexibility. For example, we use
auto-apt-proxy for laptops which roam between different networks.
It's simple to configure, has virtually no maintenance overhead and
degrades gracefully.
None of that speaks to whether an organization that deploys such a 
thing has the ability to manage other configuration settings, even 
if for some settings there's a desire for additional flexibility.

I don't understand your point.

You asked for a target audience for auto-apt-proxy. I gave you a
legitimate (and real-world) example for such a deployment. Why
should it matter whether or not an organization has other
configuration facilities?


Because the controversy concerning changing the default is over whether 
it's reasonable for someone using auto-apt-proxy to have to manage 
additional configuration settings. If the target audience is someone who 
has the ability to manage the infrastructure required by auto-apt-proxy 
but not the ability to manage anything else then I guess it's a valid 
criticism (but I have trouble envisioning that). If the auto-apt-proxy 
target audience can manage both the proxy infrastructure *and* 
sources.list (either at install time or run time) then the criticism is 
basically academic and not generally a real-world issue.




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Timo Röhling

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-09 08:32]:
I'm honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy 
is--apparently someone who has an infrastructure including a 
proxy, possibly the ability to set dns records, etc., but can't 
change defaults at install time or via some sort of runtime 
configuration management?

The same reason you might want to deploy WPAD instead of preconfiguring
proxy settings in web browsers: flexibility. For example, we use
auto-apt-proxy for laptops which roam between different networks.
It's simple to configure, has virtually no maintenance overhead and
degrades gracefully.
None of that speaks to whether an organization that deploys such a 
thing has the ability to manage other configuration settings, even if 
for some settings there's a desire for additional flexibility.

I don't understand your point.

You asked for a target audience for auto-apt-proxy. I gave you a
legitimate (and real-world) example for such a deployment. Why
should it matter whether or not an organization has other
configuration facilities?

As another example, nobody says: "the target audience for DHCP is an
organization who has an infrastructure with full control over a
network, including IP address management, but apparently can't
configure IP addresses at install time or via some sort of runtime
configuration management" and concludes that DHCP is useless.

auto-apt-proxy (or DHCP for that matter) *is* the runtime
configuration management, and a quite efficient one at that.

Cheers
Timo


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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Michael Stone

On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 11:54:44AM +0530, Pirate Praveen wrote:

Why can't auto-apt-proxy ask this as a debconf question? I also like 
auto-apt-proxy but I agree with  this, someone needing auto-apt-proxy should be 
able to change the default as well.


I don't really see why adding another debconf question would be better 
than just preseeding the existing one.


The only thing I could see that would be a net gain would be to 
generalizes sources.list more. Instead of having a user select a 
specific protocol and path, allow the user to just select high-level 
objects. Make this a new pseudo-protocol for backward compatibility, and 
introduce something like

  deb apt:// suite component[s]
so the default could be something like
  deb apt:// bullseye main
  deb apt:// bullseye/updates main
then the actual protocols, servers, and paths could be managed by 
various plugins and overridden by configuration directives in 
apt.conf.d. For existing configurations it's a no-op but it allows more 
flexibility & new plugins/protocols in the future without having to 
micromanage sources.list. If someone wants to use tor by default but 
fall back to https if it's unreachable, they can do that. If someone 
wants to use a local proxy via http but https if they're not on their 
local network, they can do that. New installations could default to 
https, existing installations can keep doing their thing, and a plugin 
like auto-apt-proxy can override defaults to do something more 
complicated, using more policy-friendly .d configurations rather than 
figuring out a way to rewrite some other package's configuration file.




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Michael Stone

On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 08:36:28AM +0200, Timo Röhling wrote:

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-08 19:12]:
Why not simply automate setting it at install time using preseed? 
I'm honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy 
is--apparently someone who has an infrastructure including a proxy, 
possibly the ability to set dns records, etc., but can't change 
defaults at install time or via some sort of runtime configuration 
management?

The same reason you might want to deploy WPAD instead of preconfiguring
proxy settings in web browsers: flexibility. For example, we use
auto-apt-proxy for laptops which roam between different networks.
It's simple to configure, has virtually no maintenance overhead and
degrades gracefully.


None of that speaks to whether an organization that deploys such a thing 
has the ability to manage other configuration settings, even if for 
some settings there's a desire for additional flexibility.




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Timo Röhling

* Michael Stone  [2021-09-08 19:12]:
Why not simply automate setting it at install time using preseed? I'm 
honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy 
is--apparently someone who has an infrastructure including a proxy, 
possibly the ability to set dns records, etc., but can't change 
defaults at install time or via some sort of runtime configuration 
management?

The same reason you might want to deploy WPAD instead of preconfiguring
proxy settings in web browsers: flexibility. For example, we use
auto-apt-proxy for laptops which roam between different networks.
It's simple to configure, has virtually no maintenance overhead and
degrades gracefully. 


Cheers
Timo

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀   ╭╮
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   │ Timo Röhling   │
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Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-09 Thread Pirate Praveen



2021, സെപ്റ്റംബർ 9 4:42:18 AM IST, Michael Stone ൽ എഴുതി
>On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 01:09:13PM +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
>>Enabling https by default quite simply breaks the simple recipe of
>>installing auto-apt-proxy. Would you agree with auto-apt-proxy's
>>postinst automatically editing your sources.list to drop the s out of
>>https? The answer repeatedly given in this thread to do so manually is
>>very unsatisfying.
>
>Why not simply automate setting it at install time using preseed? I'm 
>honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy 
>is--apparently someone who has an infrastructure including a proxy, 
>possibly the ability to set dns records, etc., but can't change defaults 
>at install time or via some sort of runtime configuration management?
>

Why can't auto-apt-proxy ask this as a debconf question? I also like 
auto-apt-proxy but I agree with  this, someone needing auto-apt-proxy should be 
able to change the default as well.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Timothy M Butterworth
All,

I am against automatically setting HTTPS. Their should be an option in
the installer to set or unset HTTPS while configuring the mirror! I
like a lot of folks am on a metered internet connection with a UTM
proxy firewall. I have multiple computers that need patched and only
having to download the package once is a great convenience to both
data usage and download time as my internet is not fast 4G LTE usually
only operating at 3G speed.

Tim



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Michael Stone

On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 03:56:14PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:

On Wed, 2021-09-08 at 15:41 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:

On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 02:01:03PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> So what do you suggest then? Tech-ctte as with merged-/usr? Or a
> GR? Or
> something else?

I propose that the proponents pay the cost. In this case, it is a bit
unclear what that means precisely (which likely is the reason they
haven't done it already). At the very least though, apt install
auto-apt-proxy should continue to work on a default installation in a
sensible way.


I can file a bug for auto-apt-proxy to include an apt.conf snippet
saying

 Acquire::https::Verify-Peer false;

That clearly makes it work again


I think the issue isn't certificate validation, it's that https proxy 
requests are made via CONNECT rather than GET. You could theoretically 
rewrite the proxy mechanism to MITM the CONNECT, but that wouldn't be a 
drop-in replacement. I suppose you could instead add an apt option to 
pass the https request to the proxy via GET instead of using CONNECT, 
but I think that also won't necessarily work on an existing proxy.


If we're imagining apt options, something like 
Acquire::https::Force-Proxy-HTTP true;
would probably be more useful for this specific case (not that I think 
it's a great idea--too much potential for surprise).




Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Michael Stone

On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 01:09:13PM +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:

Enabling https by default quite simply breaks the simple recipe of
installing auto-apt-proxy. Would you agree with auto-apt-proxy's
postinst automatically editing your sources.list to drop the s out of
https? The answer repeatedly given in this thread to do so manually is
very unsatisfying.


Why not simply automate setting it at install time using preseed? I'm 
honestly not sure who the target audience for auto-apt-proxy 
is--apparently someone who has an infrastructure including a proxy, 
possibly the ability to set dns records, etc., but can't change defaults 
at install time or via some sort of runtime configuration management?




Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Ansgar
On Wed, 2021-09-08 at 15:41 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 02:01:03PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> > So what do you suggest then? Tech-ctte as with merged-/usr? Or a
> > GR? Or
> > something else?
> 
> I propose that the proponents pay the cost. In this case, it is a bit
> unclear what that means precisely (which likely is the reason they
> haven't done it already). At the very least though, apt install
> auto-apt-proxy should continue to work on a default installation in a
> sensible way.

I can file a bug for auto-apt-proxy to include an apt.conf snippet
saying

  Acquire::https::Verify-Peer false;

That clearly makes it work again: you ask for auto-apt-proxy users to
have connections that can be impersonated by a man in the middle by
default. The above setting does that.

Not verifying certificates for some users seems better than having all
users not verify certificates (as no https is used at all).


> In
> the absence of reason not to use https, https should be preferred. As
> it
> happens, we figured a reason not to use https.

I can find a reason not to use https for any protocol (some sites want
to inspect/cache all traffic) :-)


Ansgar



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Helmut Grohne
On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 02:01:03PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> So what do you suggest then? Tech-ctte as with merged-/usr? Or a GR? Or
> something else?

I propose that the proponents pay the cost. In this case, it is a bit
unclear what that means precisely (which likely is the reason they
haven't done it already). At the very least though, apt install
auto-apt-proxy should continue to work on a default installation in a
sensible way.

> >  * Concerns are ignored. <- This is where we are with https-default.
> 
> It's also where we are with keep-http-as-default.

I don't think https resolves any concerns. It's merely best-practice. In
the absence of reason not to use https, https should be preferred. As it
happens, we figured a reason not to use https.

> > Change has a cost. I do not want to pay the cost for either of these
> > changes.
> 
> Then we could never change anything.

Untrue. You get to choose which changes you want to pay the cost for.
For instance, I want Debian to be cross buildable and bootstrappable.
Holger, Mattia and a few others want Debian to be reproducible. You
don't get to pay the cost for those changes. Change is possible in a way
that limits cost for uninterested people. The contentious changes are
the ones where the initiators fail to pay the cost.

> To keep up with merged-/usr: keeping non-merged-/usr also has a cost.
> Nobody wants to pay the cost for it.

That is very true. With merged-/usr, I suppose most grief arises from
the way the transition was (not) planned and only a minority takes issue
with the goal.

Helmut



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Ansgar
On Wed, 2021-09-08 at 13:13 +0100, Tim Woodall wrote:
> This is a bit tongue in cheek, but how about these sites where the
> .debs are downloaded from publish their *private* key? They openly
> accept that anyone can MITM them.

If you have access to the private key, you can request the CA to revoke
the certificate:

+---
| 4.9.1.1 Reasons for Revoking a Subscriber Certificate
|
| The CA SHALL revoke a Certificate within 24 hours if one or more of
| the following occurs:
| [...]
| 3. The CA obtains evidence that the Subscriber’s Private Key
| corresponding to the Public Key in the Certificate suffered a Key
| Compromise
+---[ https://cabforum.org/wp-content/uploads/CA-Browser-Forum-BR-1.8.0.pdf ]

So that would not be helpful.

Ansgar



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Tim Woodall

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021, Helmut Grohne wrote:


I do see the advantages of using https. I do not see how to not make it
happen without breaking relevant use cases. Same with the /usr-merge. I
do see the advantages. I've stopped counting the things that broke. Most
recent one is the uucp FTBFS. Change has a cost. I do not want to pay
the cost for either of these changes.



This is a bit tongue in cheek, but how about these sites where the .debs
are downloaded from publish their *private* key? They openly accept that
anyone can MITM them.

That way people who want to see "https" can see it. And people who want
the benefits of http can, with a bit of work, simulate that.

It also nicely addresses my concern which is that the next demand will
be to drop http (because when you visit the site with a webbrowser users
start getting a warning that the site is also available over http or
something like that because the google/firefox dream seems to be that
you cannot use http even where https doesn't add anything.)



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Ansgar
On Wed, 2021-09-08 at 13:53 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 01:37:37PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> > Maybe we should just find out who is responsible for this decision
> > and
> > reassign the bug to them.  The installer team maintaining d-i and
> > debootstrap or the mirror team seem reasonable choices?
> 
> We've already tried that approach on the /usr-merge and the resulting
> transition is miserable. Let's not repeat that mistake.

So what do you suggest then? Tech-ctte as with merged-/usr? Or a GR? Or
something else?

> It's the same pattern actually:
>  * People propose a change that does have positive effects, though
> some
>    find the positive effects unimportant.
>  * Other people disagree and raise concerns.
>  * Concerns are ignored. <- This is where we are with https-default.

It's also where we are with keep-http-as-default.

> Change has a cost. I do not want to pay the cost for either of these
> changes.

Then we could never change anything.

To keep up with merged-/usr: keeping non-merged-/usr also has a cost.
Nobody wants to pay the cost for it.

Ansgar



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Helmut Grohne
On Wed, Sep 08, 2021 at 01:37:37PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> Maybe we should just find out who is responsible for this decision and
> reassign the bug to them.  The installer team maintaining d-i and
> debootstrap or the mirror team seem reasonable choices?

We've already tried that approach on the /usr-merge and the resulting
transition is miserable. Let's not repeat that mistake.

It's the same pattern actually:
 * People propose a change that does have positive effects, though some
   find the positive effects unimportant.
 * Other people disagree and raise concerns.
 * Concerns are ignored. <- This is where we are with https-default.
 * Change is being implemented anyway.
 * Stuff breaks. <- This is where we are with /usr-merge.

This is frustrating.

I do see the advantages of using https. I do not see how to not make it
happen without breaking relevant use cases. Same with the /usr-merge. I
do see the advantages. I've stopped counting the things that broke. Most
recent one is the uucp FTBFS. Change has a cost. I do not want to pay
the cost for either of these changes.

Helmut



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Ansgar
On Wed, 2021-09-08 at 13:09 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 02, 2021 at 10:22:15AM +0900, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> >  Some users want proxy but they can configure their settings.
> >  So just change "default setting for {deb,security}.debian.org"
> >  is not so harmful, IMO. 
> 
> I fear you are putting this upside down. In reality, some sites (not
> users) want their users to use their local cache (transparently or
> not).

Then have the users install the site's CA authority that allows
inspecting and caching HTTPS traffic.


> Unfortunately, I don't see consensus for this, but at the same time I
> neither see consensus for enabling https by default. It's a matter
> that
> keeps popping up and people disagreeing on over and over again. The
> one
> thing that we have clearly understood at this point is that one size
> does not fit everyone. Either way makes some people unhappy.

Maybe we should just find out who is responsible for this decision and
reassign the bug to them.  The installer team maintaining d-i and
debootstrap or the mirror team seem reasonable choices?

Ansgar



Re: Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-08 Thread Helmut Grohne
Hi,

On Thu, Sep 02, 2021 at 10:22:15AM +0900, Hideki Yamane wrote:
>  Some users want proxy but they can configure their settings.
>  So just change "default setting for {deb,security}.debian.org"
>  is not so harmful, IMO. 

I fear you are putting this upside down. In reality, some sites (not
users) want their users to use their local cache (transparently or not).

>  - Users can choose other mirror than https://deb.debian.org

As far as I can tell, most users don't want to make a choice here. They
want downloading packages to just work. Preferably fast. It is the
"fast" thing that you are breaking here.

>  - Caching .debs from security.debian.org is not so huge, I guess
>(maybe except linux-image).

Not sure why security.d.o is singled out here. The switch is only
reasonable on the whole or not at all. And there the whole volume of
packages counts.

Enabling https by default quite simply breaks the simple recipe of
installing auto-apt-proxy. Would you agree with auto-apt-proxy's
postinst automatically editing your sources.list to drop the s out of
https? The answer repeatedly given in this thread to do so manually is
very unsatisfying.

So I actually argue for installing auto-apt-proxy by default and inside
d-i. That is in direct conflict with the proposed change here.

Unfortunately, I don't see consensus for this, but at the same time I
neither see consensus for enabling https by default. It's a matter that
keeps popping up and people disagreeing on over and over again. The one
thing that we have clearly understood at this point is that one size
does not fit everyone. Either way makes some people unhappy.

Helmut



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-05 Thread David Kalnischkies
On Fri, Sep 03, 2021 at 02:42:29AM +, Paul Wise wrote:
> httpredir.d.o was an alternative CDN-like thing that was based on HTTP
> redirects to the mirror network. It had lots of problems, but now that
> we have a mirror checker and zzz-dists, perhaps it could work better.
> The mirror:// method in apt has probably improved since then too.

If you wanted to bring back a httpredir-like¹ you are better of to
combine both approaches as in: Have apt request a list of mirrors to use
via mirror(+https) and have the server generate that list based on the
requester as that gives you the "regional" mirrors as did httpredir while
solving the major grip it had by having a list of mirrors to use, rather
than one potentially non-working slightly outdated partial mirror (and
the httpredir service is contacted by each client once rather than for
each individual file to then be redirected elsewhere).

Obviously, that approach is only workable if you are actually using
libapt tools. Most debootstrap implementations couldn't really use that
which might or might not be a problem for a given use case. Such
a service would also have a hard time to 'redirect' you to a local
mirror in your network (compared to an 'official' region one).


So that isn't really what seems to be the main worry here:
https prevents MitM attacks including the friendly MitM ones like the
local network at home/at DebConf telling my laptop that there is an
on-site mirror or not telling at all and just proxy transparently the
entire network.

The later seems done for in a https-world, but the former might be
somewhat salvageable: We will have to get the Release² file(s) from the
repo defined in the sources, but the index files and debs after that are
a fairer game to get from elsewhere as they are either identical with
what the defined source would have provided or a hard error.
That still violates the privacy guarantees https has (assuming it does),
so that would still need to be opt-in/out, but that is a one time choice
per machine and could be similar in style to auto-apt-proxy.

Anyway, implementation wise apt could tell $MAGIC which repo it is
interested in (by Origin & Label) and would in return get a list of
mirrors as apt-transport-mirror would. apt would then add the original
source as least priority fallback and proceed with that list for this
source.
I say $MAGIC as I don't want apt to hard code the specifics of how to
get the list, similar to how it is agnostic to how a proxy is currently
picked up, as I could envision different implementations depending on
use cases.

That is different to just using apt-transport-mirror directly in the
sources in so far as the provider of the list remains untrusted (beside
that nobody is constantly editing their sources to adapt to the local
network the machine currently resides in).


Relatively quickly thought up, probably full of holes and not implemented
at all in apt so far, but if someone thinks that might work feel free to
report as a feature request against apt and I will see what I can do
from the apt side. It at least seems slightly more workable than hoping
to prevent https – which might have just as dubious a chance to succeed
as https has to factually improve security in terms of apt. 


> Maybe http redirects to local mirrors could be feasible again, but it
> would take a lot of work.

fwiw: apt does not allow https to http redirects (some https repos
ran into this in the past like those hosted on sourceforge until they
fixed their https 'everywhere' configuration). In this regard apt is
stricter than a normal webbrowser (a mirror list acquired via https can
redirect to http mirrors though, but see the man pages for details).


Best regards

David Kalnischkies


¹ which deb.d.o sort of is just that it is nowadays done via SRV instead
  of an explicit HTTP redirect – and that only one mirror is in the list
  rather than multiple httpredir had picked one to redirect to.

² The main security benefit of https for apt is that you can't fiddle
  with the Release file, mostly in terms of sending an older one (in
  the limits of Valid-Until if used). It is also minor in size compared
  to the indexes and especially the debs, so caching them is not much of
  a concern (if a cacher was even doing it, it probably shouldn't).


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Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-04 Thread Hideki Yamane
On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 21:26:11 +0200
Simon Richter  wrote:
> The TLS layer is not part of the security model, so we'd be teaching 
> users to look for the wrong thing, kind of like the "encrypted with SSL" 
> badges on web pages in the 90ies.

 Is there any strong reason to use HTTP than HTTPS now?
 Should we teach all our users (including non-tech) about "Secure APT"
 mechanism?


 And I said about only deb.debian.org and security.debian.org, and
 just "default" - it means it does provide http access too.



-- 
Regards,

 Hideki Yamane henrich @ debian.org/iijmio-mail.jp



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-03 Thread Philipp Kern

Hi,

On 03.09.21 13:11, Simon Richter wrote:
[Revocation mechanism]

If we don't have one, shouldn't we worry more about that given the
widespread use of TLS?
We have a big hammer, shipping a new ca-certificates package. If we want 
something that only affects apt, but not other packages, that mechanism 
doesn't exist yet.


I think that's an interesting point, not just for revocation. There are 
forces pushing for more agility, switching out roots of trust more 
frequently. So for very old releases, you usually had the signing key of 
the next release on disk, so you could move to the next release. In this 
case you sort of risk not having the TLS authority on disk to make that 
happen. And of course we need to track what the authorities are doing 
that our frontends are using (e.g. [1] around how to deal with old 
Android devices).


But then I'm not sure how much we need to care about ancient releases 
that are out of security support. We would need to commit to regularly 
update the certificate bundle, though.


To your other point: I don't think managing trust into individual CAs 
will scale. We cannot really anticipate which CAs we are going to use in 
the future.


Kind regards
Philipp Kern

[1] https://letsencrypt.org/2020/12/21/extending-android-compatibility.html



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-03 Thread Ansgar
On Fri, 2021-09-03 at 13:11 +0200, Simon Richter wrote:
> > >    - If I deselect all CAs in the configuration dialog of the
> > > ca-certificates package, what mechanism will allow apt to work?
> 
> > If people intentionally detrust them, they have to deal with the
> > fallout.
> 
> So this introduces a policy that users need to mark X.509 CAs as
> trusted?

No.

> > People can also detrust Debian's OpenPGP signing keys; it's
> > not much different.
> 
> The Debian signing keys have separate trust setup, and are trusted
> for nothing but APT updates.
> 
> If we wanted the same for X.509, we'd need /etc/apt/ca-certificates
> or 
> something such, and apt to configure the list of accepted CAs
> explicitly 
> in the TLS layer rather than using the default settings.

People who only want to trust specific CAs for APT can do that. APT has
a CaPath setting.

> > Accessing www.debian.org will also not work on such systems (and
> > unlike
> > deb.d.o that does not even offer non-https). It's not Debian's
> > problem.
> 
> There are a lot of systems out there that have no need to access 
> www.debian.org, but do need to access deb.debian.org.

And nothing stops them from doing so.

> > >    - Do we want to pin the certificate provider for Debian
> > > mirrors, in
> > > the knowledge that we want to be bound to this provider for
> > > several
> > > years, do we want any "root" CA to be able to provide a trust
> > > anchor?
> 
> > Probably not?
> 
> So what do we want then? A list of root CAs that users have to mark
> as  trusted, possibly with an "are you sure?" dialog in ca-
> certificates?

We already have that.

> This isn't a simple change of default, because this simple change
> pulls in a lot of dependencies.

ca-certificates should already be installed by default (it is Priority:
standard and recommended by apt).

> That users can override the default means adding another work step
> for users, either a manual step that needs to be performed after a
> manual installation, or an automated step that needs to be integrated
> into users' deployment processes.

I don't see the problem? Currently we add another work step for users
that want to use https.

> > If we don't have one, shouldn't we worry more about that given the
> > widespread use of TLS?
> 
> We have a big hammer, shipping a new ca-certificates package. If we
> want something that only affects apt, but not other packages, that
> mechanism doesn't exist yet.

If a CA is untrustworthy, I don't think we would only want to detrust
it for apt's https method. So I see no problem.

> 
> It's not about what I like, but on what external services we want to
> depend.

So your concern is about Debian providing the deb.debian.org service at
all? That seems unrelated to the https or not question.

Ansgar



Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-03 Thread Simon Richter

Hi,

On 02.09.21 23:02, Ansgar wrote:


As it is now, I can install a Debian system where no X.509
certificate authorities are trusted.



That doesn't change with the proposal?



   - If I deselect all CAs in the configuration dialog of the
ca-certificates package, what mechanism will allow apt to work?



If people intentionally detrust them, they have to deal with the
fallout.


So this introduces a policy that users need to mark X.509 CAs as trusted?


People can also detrust Debian's OpenPGP signing keys; it's
not much different.


The Debian signing keys have separate trust setup, and are trusted for 
nothing but APT updates.


If we wanted the same for X.509, we'd need /etc/apt/ca-certificates or 
something such, and apt to configure the list of accepted CAs explicitly 
in the TLS layer rather than using the default settings.



Accessing www.debian.org will also not work on such systems (and unlike
deb.d.o that does not even offer non-https). It's not Debian's problem.


There are a lot of systems out there that have no need to access 
www.debian.org, but do need to access deb.debian.org.



   - Do we want to pin the certificate provider for Debian mirrors, in
the knowledge that we want to be bound to this provider for several
years, do we want any "root" CA to be able to provide a trust anchor?



Probably not?


So what do we want then? A list of root CAs that users have to mark as 
trusted, possibly with an "are you sure?" dialog in ca-certificates?


This isn't a simple change of default, because this simple change pulls 
in a lot of dependencies. That users can override the default means 
adding another work step for users, either a manual step that needs to 
be performed after a manual installation, or an automated step that 
needs to be integrated into users' deployment processes.



   - Is there a revocation mechanism by which we can mark "root" CAs
as
untrustworthy?



If we don't have one, shouldn't we worry more about that given the
widespread use of TLS?


We have a big hammer, shipping a new ca-certificates package. If we want 
something that only affects apt, but not other packages, that mechanism 
doesn't exist yet.



Do we have a revocation mechanism by which we can mark OpenPGP signing
keys as untrustworthy (say for apt)?


Yes, by shipping an update.


   - do we have a contingency plan if deb.debian.org hosting on Fastly
is no longer feasible?



As far as I know there is also at least https://cdn-aws.deb.debian.org/
if you don't like Fastly.


It's not about what I like, but on what external services we want to depend.

   Simon



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature


Bug#992692: general: Use https for {deb,security}.debian.org by default

2021-09-02 Thread Paul Wise
On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 9:06 PM Ansgar wrote:

> Accessing www.debian.org will also not work on such systems (and unlike
> deb.d.o that does not even offer non-https). It's not Debian's problem.

The Tor onion services offer alternatives to the https PKI:

https://onion.debian.org/

> Is replacing deb.d.o by a non-CDN feasible?

security.d.o mirrors were getting overwhelmed after Linux kernel
updates, which is why that switched to the Fastly CDN, so probably
not. Also, the entire point of the deb.d.o domain is that it be backed
by a CDN.

httpredir.d.o was an alternative CDN-like thing that was based on HTTP
redirects to the mirror network. It had lots of problems, but now that
we have a mirror checker and zzz-dists, perhaps it could work better.
The mirror:// method in apt has probably improved since then too.
Maybe http redirects to local mirrors could be feasible again, but it
would take a lot of work.

https://mirror-master.debian.org/status/mirror-hierarchy.html

> As far as I know there is also at least https://cdn-aws.deb.debian.org/
> if you don't like Fastly.

And there are other CDNs that could potentially be used.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise



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