Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
Quoting Tomas Pospisek (2014-12-01 17:57:12) > Am 29.11.2014 um 22:01 schrieb Philipp Kern: >> On 2014-11-29 21:30, Steve Langasek wrote: >>> Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are >>> going to have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being >>> switched to systemd, then we should take appropriate steps to >>> address that, even if that means unfreezing the installer. >> >> Sure. But where is the evidence for that? Is there a bug that has >> been agreed upon to be RC? > > Whoever upgrades their lxc guests without taking further informed > action (such as switching back to sysv), will not be able to start > their LXC VM at the next reboot( #766233 [1]). > > This is currently classified as "a bug which has a major effect on the > usability of a package, without rendering it completely unusable to > everyone." and thus not RC, so if being RC is currently the > precondition to fix stuff in jessie, then you are right. > > Unless at least respective documentation gets included in the release > notes (#762194 [2]) I think there will be some future unhappiness. > > At this moment it's a trap waiting to be walked into. > *t > > [1] http://bugs.debian.org/766233 > [2] https://bugs.debian.org/762194 What does "evidence" even mean here? I expect systemd itself to be in good shape, not buggy. But I do suspect that Debian-with-systemd is in lesser good shape, especially on existing systems some of which were creating by standards now discouraged (e.g. / and /usr on separate partitions). By switching init system we are "shaking the tree", revealing bugs in other code which lay dormant till now. Molly-guard seems to now fail on systems with separate / and /usr due to /usr being unmounted before molly-guard is called (bug#771572) - smells like broken init system interactions, but likely an old bug in Molly-guard just not revealed until exposed to a modern init system. Should that bug be RC? How to collect potential evidence, while playing nice with systemd maintainers, release team and others who are less worried? - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
Am 29.11.2014 um 22:01 schrieb Philipp Kern: > On 2014-11-29 21:30, Steve Langasek wrote: >> Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are >> going to >> have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to >> systemd, >> then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that means >> unfreezing the installer. > > Sure. But where is the evidence for that? Is there a bug that has been > agreed upon to be RC? Whoever upgrades their lxc guests without taking further informed action (such as switching back to sysv), will not be able to start their LXC VM at the next reboot( #766233 [1]). This is currently classified as "a bug which has a major effect on the usability of a package, without rendering it completely unusable to everyone." and thus not RC, so if being RC is currently the precondition to fix stuff in jessie, then you are right. Unless at least respective documentation gets included in the release notes (#762194 [2]) I think there will be some future unhappiness. At this moment it's a trap waiting to be walked into. *t [1] http://bugs.debian.org/766233 [2] https://bugs.debian.org/762194 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547c9de8.5020...@sourcepole.ch
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:30 -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 08:14:07PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > > That's even more unlikely than to add a debconf message (which would be > > package-owned). Yes, debian-installer is frozen. This would add new > > udebs, new strings, new everything. We're actually trying to release. > > Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are going to > have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to systemd, > then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that means > unfreezing the installer. Indeed. Jessie should be released once "large numbers of our users [will] no longer have a bad experience as a result of being switched to systemd [because all relevant bugs have been fixed]". As somebody who is active in user support on IRC I dread the jessie release if it means that we will ask people for years to come if they have switched to systemd after their upgrade and, if not, walk them through the process. So far most users who had a bad experience with jessie did so because they did *not* switch and the fact that -shim wasn't ready. "having a bad experience" should directly translate into bugs that can, and have to, be fixed before the release. I would welcome a more technical discussion at this point rather than an emotional one. Thank you and everybody else for their wonderful work and patience. -- Wolodja 4096R/CAF14EFC 081C B7CD FF04 2BA9 94EA 36B2 8B7F 7D30 CAF1 4EFC signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
2014-11-29 22:25 GMT+01:00 Svante Signell : > On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 22:01 +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: >> On 2014-11-29 21:30, Steve Langasek wrote: >> > Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are >> > going to >> > have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to >> > systemd, >> > then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that >> > means >> > unfreezing the installer. >> >> Sure. But where is the evidence for that? Is there a bug that has been >> agreed upon to be RC? >> >> > I am not saying that making init systems a choice in the installer is >> > the >> > right solution here; I don't think that it is. But I also don't think >> > that >> > the release freeze can reasonably be an argument against it. >> >> Not even the release freeze, rather the d-i freeze. Unless this is RC >> for d-i, that is > > Ok, I've tried to no avail. Debian is no democracy (maybe never was). It never was a democracy - it was and is a meritocracy, described as "the reign of knowledge"[1]. And we are going quite well with that. [1]: http://debian-handbook.info/browse/wheezy/sect.debian-internals.html#idp5715200 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caknhny9tvwok2yyutyjmokta+yh+uyk0sga8dralf8gjzmi...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 12:30:49 -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: >On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 08:14:07PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 07:15:08PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: >> > One claim is changed, see below. > >> > On Fri, 2014-11-28 at 12:56 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: >> > > Hello, > >> > > In summary: >> > > a) Upgrades should _not_ change init: whatever is installed should be >> > > kept. >> > > b) New installs should get systemd-sysv as default init with a debconf >> > > message about alternative init systems. > >> > Since there is no interest in adding a debconf message on new installs, >> > I wish for a menu entry in the advanced part of the installer to be able >> > to install a new system with sysvinit-core or upstart! > >> That's even more unlikely than to add a debconf message (which would be >> package-owned). Yes, debian-installer is frozen. This would add new >> udebs, new strings, new everything. We're actually trying to release. > >Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are going to >have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to systemd, >then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that means >unfreezing the installer. > >I am not saying that making init systems a choice in the installer is the >right solution here; I don't think that it is. But I also don't think that >the release freeze can reasonably be an argument against it. Amen. With all the technical issues in systemd popping up just now, we have frozen prematurely. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/ Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/e1xupbp-0002gh...@swivel.zugschlus.de
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 22:01 +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > On 2014-11-29 21:30, Steve Langasek wrote: > > Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are > > going to > > have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to > > systemd, > > then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that > > means > > unfreezing the installer. > > Sure. But where is the evidence for that? Is there a bug that has been > agreed upon to be RC? > > > I am not saying that making init systems a choice in the installer is > > the > > right solution here; I don't think that it is. But I also don't think > > that > > the release freeze can reasonably be an argument against it. > > Not even the release freeze, rather the d-i freeze. Unless this is RC > for d-i, that is Ok, I've tried to no avail. Debian is no democracy (maybe never was). ctte do as you feel there are no alternative solutions, just state the fact with your decision EOT. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1417296351.6826.13.ca...@gmail.com
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On 2014-11-29 21:30, Steve Langasek wrote: Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are going to have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to systemd, then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that means unfreezing the installer. Sure. But where is the evidence for that? Is there a bug that has been agreed upon to be RC? I am not saying that making init systems a choice in the installer is the right solution here; I don't think that it is. But I also don't think that the release freeze can reasonably be an argument against it. Not even the release freeze, rather the d-i freeze. Unless this is RC for d-i, that is. Kind regards Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/fb3501d01e459459d6fc914e13e8a...@hub.kern.lc
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 21:27 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > But it does not seem like you are realizing what is > happening unfortunately. Debian will not be as it was historically due > to this issue. Maybe the new DDs are to young to learn from history? Please don't patronise people. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean that they're naive and unseeing and would be so much better off if you could just lift the mist from in front of their eyes. I'll stop contributing to the noise myself now, apologies to everyone else. Regards, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1417293389.2472.6.ca...@adam-barratt.org.uk
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 08:14:07PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 07:15:08PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > One claim is changed, see below. > > On Fri, 2014-11-28 at 12:56 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > > Hello, > > > In summary: > > > a) Upgrades should _not_ change init: whatever is installed should be > > > kept. > > > b) New installs should get systemd-sysv as default init with a debconf > > > message about alternative init systems. > > Since there is no interest in adding a debconf message on new installs, > > I wish for a menu entry in the advanced part of the installer to be able > > to install a new system with sysvinit-core or upstart! > That's even more unlikely than to add a debconf message (which would be > package-owned). Yes, debian-installer is frozen. This would add new > udebs, new strings, new everything. We're actually trying to release. Debian releases when it's ready. If large numbers of our users are going to have a bad experience with jessie as a result of being switched to systemd, then we should take appropriate steps to address that, even if that means unfreezing the installer. I am not saying that making init systems a choice in the installer is the right solution here; I don't think that it is. But I also don't think that the release freeze can reasonably be an argument against it. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141129203049.gc16...@virgil.dodds.net
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 20:19 +, Adam D. Barratt wrote: > On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 20:40 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > This is another nail in the Universal OS coffin: Let's move to devuan, > > please! > > You are of course free to do that. This discussion is about what Debian > should do, however. If you wish to discuss Devuan, please do so in a > more appropriate forum. Yes, I'll do that. But it does not seem like you are realizing what is happening unfortunately. Debian will not be as it was historically due to this issue. Maybe the new DDs are to young to learn from history? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1417292862.6826.11.ca...@gmail.com
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 20:40 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > This is another nail in the Universal OS coffin: Let's move to devuan, > please! You are of course free to do that. This discussion is about what Debian should do, however. If you wish to discuss Devuan, please do so in a more appropriate forum. Regards, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1417292348.2472.4.ca...@adam-barratt.org.uk
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On 29-11-2014 19:40, Svante Signell wrote: [...] > This is another nail in the Universal OS coffin: Let's move to devuan, > please! Use Debian as upstream (as long as it lives) > > Yes, next Debian release is lendows, not jessie :( Thanks! We appreciate less noise on these lists and on the next release - which it's currently frozen, although you don't care. Good luck. -- Melhores cumprimentos/Best regards, Miguel Figueiredo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547a1846.7010...@debianpt.org
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, 2014-11-29 at 20:14 +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 07:15:08PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > One claim is changed, see below. > > > > On Fri, 2014-11-28 at 12:56 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > In summary: > > > a) Upgrades should _not_ change init: whatever is installed should be > > > kept. > > > b) New installs should get systemd-sysv as default init with a debconf > > > message about alternative init systems. > > > > Since there is no interest in adding a debconf message on new installs, > > I wish for a menu entry in the advanced part of the installer to be able > > to install a new system with sysvinit-core or upstart! > > That's even more unlikely than to add a debconf message (which would be > package-owned). Yes, debian-installer is frozen. This would add new > udebs, new strings, new everything. We're actually trying to release. This is another nail in the Universal OS coffin: Let's move to devuan, please! Use Debian as upstream (as long as it lives) Yes, next Debian release is lendows, not jessie :( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1417290006.6826.7.ca...@gmail.com
Re: Bug#762194: Summary:Re: Bug#762194: Proposal for upgrades to jessie (lendows 1)
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 07:15:08PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > One claim is changed, see below. > > On Fri, 2014-11-28 at 12:56 +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > Hello, > > > In summary: > > a) Upgrades should _not_ change init: whatever is installed should be > > kept. > > b) New installs should get systemd-sysv as default init with a debconf > > message about alternative init systems. > > Since there is no interest in adding a debconf message on new installs, > I wish for a menu entry in the advanced part of the installer to be able > to install a new system with sysvinit-core or upstart! That's even more unlikely than to add a debconf message (which would be package-owned). Yes, debian-installer is frozen. This would add new udebs, new strings, new everything. We're actually trying to release. Kind regards Philipp Kern signature.asc Description: Digital signature
