Content of CDs / DVDs

[Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo]

Hello.

Since sarge (and everything later) will contain at least 14 CDs I would
like to ask simple question:

Is there *any* way to check what packages are available on particular CD
without downloading iso and mounting it locally?

If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer) then what about adding
some txt files alongside isos?
Simple list of packages shouldn't (and won't) take much space and will be
very helpful for newbies which still ask what are all of those CDs for.

regards
fEnIo
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IRC:fEnIo
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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Frans Pop]

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On Wednesday 20 October 2004 21:48, Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo wrote:
> Is there *any* way to check what packages are available on particular
> CD without downloading iso and mounting it locally?
>
> If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer) then what about
> adding some txt files alongside isos?

Wrong lists :-(
Try the debian-cd list for this subject.

Cheers,
FJP
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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Matthew Dempsky]

Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Is there *any* way to check what packages are available on particular CD
> without downloading iso and mounting it locally?
>
> If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer) then what about adding
> some txt files alongside isos?

I think this would be useful as well (assuming that is indeed the
right answer :-).

> Simple list of packages shouldn't (and won't) take much space and will be
> very helpful for newbies which still ask what are all of those CDs for.

A step up from there, a simple CGI that let the user specify a few
packages they'd like to be able to install (gnome, kde, etc.) and then
be provided with a list of which disks they'll need to download to
install those packages along with all dependencies.

Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 03:27:26PM -0500, Matthew Dempsky wrote:
> > Is there *any* way to check what packages are available on particular CD
> > without downloading iso and mounting it locally?
> >
> > If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer) then what about adding
> > some txt files alongside isos?
> 
> I think this would be useful as well (assuming that is indeed the
> right answer :-).
> 
> > Simple list of packages shouldn't (and won't) take much space and will be
> > very helpful for newbies which still ask what are all of those CDs for.
> 
> A step up from there, a simple CGI that let the user specify a few
> packages they'd like to be able to install (gnome, kde, etc.) and then
> be provided with a list of which disks they'll need to download to
> install those packages along with all dependencies.

A step up from there... what about some CGI where user could specify some
packages and get full working isos which contain those packages with
dependencies?

Of course this won't be created online, but such images could be put
on web after some time and could be identified with some session id.
(in addition user would be forced to confirm such creation by
 email/whatever to not overload mirror/server)

I think that such possibility would be *extremely* useful.
Let's be honest... how many of us will download full CD set of sarge?

I know that Custom Debian Distributions are planned/made already, but would
be great for any comments about mentioned solution.

IMHO this would be great to pick-up some packages and get iso(s) ready for
installation.

regards
fEnIo

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  _  Bartosz Fenski | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | pgp:0x13fefc40 | 
IRC:fEnIo
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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Maciej Dems]

Patrzę w ekran, a to Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo pisze do mnie:
> Of course this won't be created online, but such images could be put
> on web after some time and could be identified with some session id.
> (in addition user would be forced to confirm such creation by
>  email/whatever to not overload mirror/server)

Or maybe it would be better to use the jigdo? The user specifies the 
packages and the jigdo template is automatically created for him. Than he 
can download the necessary packages from his favourite mirror and burn 
the CD/DVD.

Regards
Demsik

-- 
M.Sc. Maciej Dems  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
C o m p u t e r   P h y s i c s   L a b o r a t o r y
Institute of Physics,Technical University of Lodz
ul. Wolczanska 219, 93-005 Lodz, Poland, +48426313649

Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 11:56:43PM +0200, Maciej Dems wrote:
> > Of course this won't be created online, but such images could be put
> > on web after some time and could be identified with some session id.
> > (in addition user would be forced to confirm such creation by
> >  email/whatever to not overload mirror/server)
> Or maybe it would be better to use the jigdo? The user specifies the 
> packages and the jigdo template is automatically created for him. Than he 
> can download the necessary packages from his favourite mirror and burn 
> the CD/DVD.

Of course! Now I can't believe I didn't think about jigdo first... probably
because I'm not very familiar with it.

Assuming that it allows to create custom isos then it's great for this
purpose.

In fact alongside picking up custom packages we could create some
predefined (maybe based on the popularity) templates.

Anyone willing to work on it? Maybe some Alioth project?
I'm not DD yet so someone else would be forced to create such project.
But I would like to contribute in such addition to project.

regards
fEnIo

-- 
  _  Bartosz Fenski | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | pgp:0x13fefc40 | 
IRC:fEnIo
_|_|_ 32-050 Skawina - Glowackiego 3/15 - w. malopolskie - Polska
(0 0)  phone:+48602383548 | Slackware - the weakest link
ooO--(_)--Ooo  http://skawina.eu.org | JID:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | RLU:172001


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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Matthew Dempsky]

Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 11:56:43PM +0200, Maciej Dems wrote:
>> > Of course this won't be created online, but such images could be put
>> > on web after some time and could be identified with some session id.
>> > (in addition user would be forced to confirm such creation by
>> >  email/whatever to not overload mirror/server)
>> Or maybe it would be better to use the jigdo? The user specifies the 
>> packages and the jigdo template is automatically created for him. Than he 
>> can download the necessary packages from his favourite mirror and burn 
>> the CD/DVD.

That's actually what I was about to recommend. :-)

> Of course! Now I can't believe I didn't think about jigdo first... probably
> because I'm not very familiar with it.
>
> Assuming that it allows to create custom isos then it's great for this
> purpose.
>
> In fact alongside picking up custom packages we could create some
> predefined (maybe based on the popularity) templates.
>
> Anyone willing to work on it? Maybe some Alioth project?
> I'm not DD yet so someone else would be forced to create such project.
> But I would like to contribute in such addition to project.

How difficult is it to generate jigdo templates on the fly?  It sounds
like a fun project if that's not too difficult a task.

Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Matthew Currington]

Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo wrote:
If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer) then what about adding
some txt files alongside isos?
Simple list of packages shouldn't (and won't) take much space and will be
very helpful for newbies which still ask what are all of those CDs for.
Do you think a simple packages.html file would be better? Especially for 
newbies.

Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo]

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:43:51PM +1300, Matthew Currington wrote:
> >If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer) then what about adding
> >some txt files alongside isos?
> >Simple list of packages shouldn't (and won't) take much space and will be
> >very helpful for newbies which still ask what are all of those CDs for.
> 
> Do you think a simple packages.html file would be better? Especially for 
> newbies.

Yes I do. Having simple packages.html is still better than having nothing.

regards
fEnIo

-- 
  _  Bartosz Fenski | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | pgp:0x13fefc40 | 
IRC:fEnIo
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(0 0)  phone:+48602383548 | Slackware - the weakest link
ooO--(_)--Ooo  http://skawina.eu.org | JID:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | RLU:172001


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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Richard Atterer]

Hello,

/me puts jigdo author hat on.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 06:38:07PM -0500, Matthew Dempsky wrote:
> Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Of course! Now I can't believe I didn't think about jigdo first...
> > probably because I'm not very familiar with it.
> >
> > Assuming that it allows to create custom isos then it's great for this
> > purpose.
> >
> > In fact alongside picking up custom packages we could create some
> > predefined (maybe based on the popularity) templates.
> >
> > Anyone willing to work on it? Maybe some Alioth project? I'm not DD yet
> > so someone else would be forced to create such project. But I would
> > like to contribute in such addition to project.
> 
> How difficult is it to generate jigdo templates on the fly?  It sounds
> like a fun project if that's not too difficult a task.

It's not /that/ easy, because the .template includes a md5 checksum for the
entire image, and also other, per-file checksums. This means that during
the on-the-fly generation, all the file data needs to be read into memory
to calculate the checksum, so creating the .template will take quite a
while.
(Of course, at the expense of outputting images with a wrong (i.e. zero)
image md5sum, you can go faster...)

Look at Steve McIntyre's JTE project
 for something very much like
this. As of 2 weeks ago, JTE is used to produce the weekly CD/DVD images.

All in all, IMHO generating per-user images on the fly is not really
feasible. However, I think it might make sense to offer several variant CD 
"compilations", a bit like the "Home", "Professional" and "Server" variants 
of other Linux distros. 

OTOH, offering such variants will increase the number of available Debian
images yet again. We already offer images for different arches, different
sizes (business-card/netinst/CD/DVD/DLDVD) and different distributions
(sid/sarge/woody), the total number of images is getting truly confusing,
especially for people new to Debian.

Cheers,

  Richard

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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Cameron Patrick]

Richard Atterer wrote:

> All in all, IMHO generating per-user images on the fly is not really
> feasible.

Would it be more feasible if all of the intelligence was on the client
side?  The client could slurp down a Packages file, work out which
packages to include and split them into CD-sized chunks, download the
debs from a mirror somewhere, then fetch the installer and whatever
else is necessary to make the CD usable.  It'd be like jigdo, but
taken one stage further.

Cameron.



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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo]

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 06:21:24PM +0800, Cameron Patrick wrote:
> > All in all, IMHO generating per-user images on the fly is not really
> > feasible.
> 
> Would it be more feasible if all of the intelligence was on the client
> side?  The client could slurp down a Packages file, work out which
> packages to include and split them into CD-sized chunks, download the
> debs from a mirror somewhere, then fetch the installer and whatever
> else is necessary to make the CD usable.  It'd be like jigdo, but
> taken one stage further.

That's something what I meant. I don't want to overload our mirrors too.
I meant jigdo+possibility to pick-up packages which user wants to be included
in iso(s).

regards
fEnIo
-- 
  _  Bartosz Fenski | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | pgp:0x13fefc40 | 
IRC:fEnIo
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(0 0)  phone:+48602383548 | Slackware - the weakest link
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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Richard Atterer]

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 06:21:24PM +0800, Cameron Patrick wrote:
> Would it be more feasible if all of the intelligence was on the client
> side?  The client could slurp down a Packages file, work out which
> packages to include and split them into CD-sized chunks, download the
> debs from a mirror somewhere, then fetch the installer and whatever else
> is necessary to make the CD usable.  It'd be like jigdo, but taken one
> stage further.

That would be possible, but it wasn't a design goal for jigdo. With jigdo,
I wanted to create bit-exact copies of officially released images. Once you
start executing mkisofs on the user's machine, this becomes difficult to
achieve, so jigdo leaves creating the iso9660 filesystem to other tools.

Have a look at the debian-cd scripts and imagine doing all this on the 
user's machine - not trivial!

Cheers,

  Richard

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Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Steve McIntyre]

[ Note Reply-To: set to debian-cd; that's the right place for this
  discussion ]

Richard Atterer writes:
>On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 06:38:07PM -0500, Matthew Dempsky wrote:
>> 
>> How difficult is it to generate jigdo templates on the fly?  It sounds
>> like a fun project if that's not too difficult a task.
>
>It's not /that/ easy, because the .template includes a md5 checksum for the
>entire image, and also other, per-file checksums. This means that during
>the on-the-fly generation, all the file data needs to be read into memory
>to calculate the checksum, so creating the .template will take quite a
>while.
>(Of course, at the expense of outputting images with a wrong (i.e. zero)
>image md5sum, you can go faster...)

Yes. I was discussing this with some people last night. The MD5 step
is the hard bit. If we are prepared to lose the MD5 of the entire
image (or use another checksum algorithm that can be updated just
using existing checksums of the parts in the image) then we could
probably generate jigdo files on the fly in _seconds_ simply by using
the data already in the Packages files. We'd need to make a few tweaks
to the CD layout, but it's doable if we want it.

>Look at Steve McIntyre's JTE project
> for something very much like
>this. As of 2 weeks ago, JTE is used to produce the weekly CD/DVD images.
>
>All in all, IMHO generating per-user images on the fly is not really
>feasible. However, I think it might make sense to offer several variant CD 
>"compilations", a bit like the "Home", "Professional" and "Server" variants 
>of other Linux distros. 
>
>OTOH, offering such variants will increase the number of available Debian
>images yet again. We already offer images for different arches, different
>sizes (business-card/netinst/CD/DVD/DLDVD) and different distributions
>(sid/sarge/woody), the total number of images is getting truly confusing,
>especially for people new to Debian.

Agreed.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.

Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[Marc Haber]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:35:02 +0200, Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Let's be honest... how many of us will download full CD set of sarge?

A lot of clueless newbies will. It's already common with woody. Almost
daily, Usenet groups will receive articles like "now I have downloaded
all 7 woody CDs, and what do I do with them?".

Greetings
Marc

-- 
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Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" |

Re: Content of CDs / DVDs

[g.b.]

Is there *any* way to check what packages are available on particular CD
without downloading iso and mounting it locally?
If not (and I'm assuming that's the right answer)
[...]
wrong.
try:
$ wget -nd \
http://cdimage.debian.org/pub/cdimage-testing/cd/jigdo-area/i386/sarge-i386-1.jigdo
$ zless sarge-i386-1.jigdo
usually jigdo files are a few kb long.
cheers.
g.b.