Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
Petter wrote: > I have not confirmed that this procedure will work, but here is my > suggestions anyway. > > - The Alioth system administrators have asked for help several times. > Get in touch with them and check what exactly they need help with. > Do a good job helping them, and prove that way your abilities as a > system administrator. Next, contact the new maintainer frontdesk > and ask how the NM process fit your skill set and interest, and go > through the process to become a official Debian Developer. Given that it takes up to two years to process an applicant answering standard questions from templates, how long is it likely to take to process someone through a custom process? Possibly less time if the applicant doesn't get hung up on difficult questions, but probably more; and the customization won't scale. And can we be sure that the applicant will be subjected to pointless busywork this way (to test his tolerance for Debian's institution of people carelessly wasting one another's time)? Another thing: According to my AM, the applicant's prior work can't be used to prove his competence because the Front Desk and the DAM can't be bothered to look at that work. How do we ensure that applicants on the "custom" track will be subjected to similar obtuseness? Perhaps there should be a checklist to ensure a level playing field. [] Find something that he doesn't know and tell him to go away if he doesn't know it [] Ignore the applicant's past work in Debian [] Make the applicant rephrase "§6.4: Summary of ways maintainer scripts are called" in his own words [] Make the applicant wait for months for no particular reason [] Blame the applicant for above delays Seriously though, Jerome, I'd advise you not to get your hopes up too high. Here's the experience of Debian's newest DD: Received application2004-04-21 > [...] > Application Manager recommends to DAM Approved on 2004-07-12 > FD checks completeness of report Approved on 2006-02-21 by Marc > Brockschmidt (he) > DAM Approval Approved on 2006-03-20 by Joerg Jaspert > (joerg) -- Thomas Hood
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
[Jerome Warnier] > BTW, how could I apply for becoming DD with only doing sysadmin > tasks? I'd do it immediately. That's my job, I'm pretty good at it, > and I prefer that to packaging, while I'm able to package too (I > already have a package of mine in Debian). I have not confirmed that this procedure will work, but here is my suggestions anyway. - The Alioth system administrators have asked for help several times. Get in touch with them and check what exactly they need help with. Do a good job helping them, and prove that way your abilities as a system administrator. Next, contact the new maintainer frontdesk and ask how the NM process fit your skill set and interest, and go through the process to become a official Debian Developer. - There are several custom debian distributions focusing on making it easier to maintain a installation of Debian machines. For example Debian-Edu and Debian-NP comes to mind. Become active in these sub-projects, and do a god job improving the tools and maintain the system used by these projects, and then as earlier described, make contact with the new maintainer frontdesk to discuss your case. There is no need to wait until your official Debian Developer membership card is available for you to become involved in sysadmin work in Debian. And already being involved will make it a lot easier for you to become a official Debian Developer. Friendly, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
On Wednesday 29 March 2006 12:08, Frans Pop wrote: > The "Tasks and skills" part of [1] currently explicitly lists "either > documentation and internationalisation or package maintenance" as tasks > for which an applicant can be tested, so not only package maintenance. Forgot the link: [1] http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-checklist pgpgRwXuQx781.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
On Wednesday 29 March 2006 11:11, Thomas Hood wrote: > Obviously you can't, currently. This is not true. The NM team and the DAMs have a certain amount of freedom to tailor the NM process to individual applicants. The "Tasks and skills" part of [1] currently explicitly lists "either documentation and internationalisation or package maintenance" as tasks for which an applicant can be tested, so not only package maintenance. I became a DD via the "documentation and internationalisation" route myself. I don't see why in a specific case "general and Debian specific system administration" tasks and skills could not be tested instead. The best thing to do IMO is to discuss this with the NM Front Desk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. I would guess that in this specific case the NM people will want to consult with existing DSA members before entering a NM process on that basis as obviously there is little point in going through with it if Jerome would not be accepted into that team after becoming a DD. I'd even guess that they'd prefer to have an existing DSA member act as AM, at least for the tasks and skills part. Cheers, FJP pgpzFXXn2YwJe.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
Jérôme Warnier wrote: > But [packaging] is not my main contribution to Debian, I propose patches and > close bugs for many packages I personally use or need for customers, and > this is not recognized currently as sufficient for becoming a DD... and > I'm not the only one. and later wrote: > So, how can I apply for DDship while doing the things I'm best at? Obviously you can't, currently. You aren't the first to see a potential problem with the current equation of DD'ship with Debian project membership. It's hard to predict whether this will ever change. If you think that it should change then nothing is stopping you from making the suggestion here. It's up to the members to decide whether they want to implement such change, though. (It's a bit of a catch-22, since existing members are less likely to see the exclusivity of Debian as a problem. However, you always have the option of participating in some other project, such as Ubuntu, which does recognize contributions other than package maintenance.) -- Thomas Hood -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
Le samedi 21 janvier 2006 à 10:17 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen a écrit : > [Jérôme Warnier] > > But why would you want to become a DD if you are not willing to > > maintain a package. Debian is just about maintaining packages. > > Debian needs more than just people maintaining packages. We need > people working on translations, documentation, testing, web pages, > system administration, press relations and probably some tasks I > forgot. And we should accept people interested in working on these > tasks as full members of the project. BTW, how could I apply for becoming DD with only doing sysadmin tasks? I'd do it immediately. That's my job, I'm pretty good at it, and I prefer that to packaging, while I'm able to package too (I already have a package of mine in Debian). I've found that in real life, packaging is the only way to *become* DD. I've already contributed a lot to Debian, for years now (back around 2000), and would like to become a DD, but the work needed just to reach the Holy Grail is simply too much when you are already working a lot (especially on Debian bugreporting and patching). So, how can I apply for DDship while doing the things I'm best at? -- Jérôme Warnier FLOSS Consultant http://beeznest.net
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
Frans Jessop wrote: > Future [scenario:] > > There are now 10,000 DD's ... I would assert that Debian as we know it cannot have 10,000 DDs. Why not? For the same reason a standing parliament cannot have 10,000 members, or an industrial plant 10,000 workers. Try as we might, we humans cannot scale the way database records do. Somewhere above 2,000 active DDs, one suspects that our current concept of development community fundamentally breaks down, in the same way that productivity breaks down in an industrial plant somewhere above 2,000 workers. Why? I don't know. Your theory is as good as mine. It's in the immutable aggregate human nature of very large groups. -- Thaddeus H. Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
[Jérôme Warnier] > But why would you want to become a DD if you are not willing to > maintain a package. Debian is just about maintaining packages. Debian needs more than just people maintaining packages. We need people working on translations, documentation, testing, web pages, system administration, press relations and probably some tasks I forgot. And we should accept people interested in working on these tasks as full members of the project. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
[..] > Future A: > > There are now 10,000 DD's and over 100,000 packages, most nobody uses, they > are just there because they were needed by people who wanted to become DD's. > Now that they are, those unused packages are ignored. A major upload > occures and now there are 30,000 bugs on the BTS. Over 10,000 remain for > months on these packages nobody cares about. The media speculates Debian > will never again be stable, look at the bugs!!! Those who want to be DD's > scramble for even more pointless packages, even more future bugs that will But why would you want to become a DD if you are not willing to maintain a package. Debian is just about maintaining packages. I agree there are other ways to contribute to Debian, but not much which do not involve being responsible for a package. I'm not a DD, and would like to become one to vote in some cases and to help more effectively in some (rare) cases. I already have a package which I maintain in the archive (and), mostly because I needed it, and it was being orphaned (well, to tell the truth, it was not maintained for a long time despite several important bugs), so I contacted the maintainer and took it over. But this is not my main contribution to Debian, I propose patches and close bugs for many packages I personally use or need for customers, and this is not recognized currently as sufficient for becoming a DD... and I'm not the only one. > be ignored. People that do wan to fix some bugs won't know how and will > apply for help from those who know nothing about their package and could > care less. The bugs remain. This DD goes MIA in frustration. [..] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
(M-F-T set.) [Frans Jessop] > When somebody wants to become a DD he is told ?Go find a package to > maintain, one that you can be the maintainer for.? I see serious > problems with this approach as Debian increases in DD's. I will how > this is in a second. What I think should be emphasized is ?Go find a > package team and join it and contribute and show your stuff.? The point of maintaining a package is to prove that you *can* maintain a package. Being on a team proves nothing. Being on a team and doing most of the work proves something, if this can be measured, but that's difficult. As it happens, I'm on at least one team where I do a majority of the work, and at least one team in name only (haven't yet done *any* work). I don't particularly expect to be judged favorably for the one or unfavorably for the other, because it's just too hard to get the data. > I think Debian needs to emphasize teams packaging, not just > individuals for many reasons. We've had this conversation already. So I'll skip it. Besides, there are lots of things we need to emphasise in Debian. We've had those conversations, too. > Future A: > > There are now 10,000 DD's and over 100,000 packages, most nobody > uses, they are just there because they were needed by people who > wanted to become DD's. Obvious solution: Change the requirement from "maintain a package" to "maintain a package that a significant number of people care about". Since AMs / DAMs are people rather than machines, we don't need an accurate automated metric for this - something as vague as popcon should be quite sufficient to reveal the difference between useful packages and pet packages only ever installed by people who said to themselves "hmmm I wonder what this does" and then never bothered to uninstall them. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
This must constitute the perfect post. I too care about Debian's future. _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Emphasize teams, not packages
Frans Jessop wrote: > First, as the announcement just came a few days ago some are ignoring > their > bugs for months. If a team was on the project that is less likely to > happen. Hmm this already happens today with packages who *are* maintained by teams. > Second, collaboration on ideas for individual packages, by those who are > directly involved with the package, can occur making the future of the > package better. Hmm might be true for really big packages. > Third, Instead of always having the hard process of trying to get someone > to adopt will go away for team members can take over. > > Fourth, MIA's will not be as big a problem. The problem is, that not every tiny little package requires a team to maintain it. And the big packages. like kernel, xorg, kde, ... already are maintained by teams. > Fifth, more heads on a package are better than one > > Sixth, those applying to be a DD will have worked along side a Developer > who will better see �how this one contributes and fixes bugs.� But others can't be sure, that *all* New Maintainers meet the same requirements and standards. Some NM might be lucky to find a DD who is rather sloppy and might become a DD without much effort while others have to work much harder (and learn much more) to become a DD. > Seventh, It will increase teamwork. :) > > Now for my hypothetical situation: > > Future A: Don't forget, that becoming a DD today takes at least a year -- and the average DD contributes ~7years before leaving the project -- I don't think that we will see 10.000 DDs in the near future. But what's more important: I don't see a problem with *too much* packages, since unused packages sooner or later disappear from the archive. > > Future B. Again, I think teams are not allways necessary, espeacially when we speak about small packages. On the other side the big ones are usually already maintained by teams. But I agree that more teams in general would be a good idea since it happens quite often that a bug gets not fixed because the only maintainer is on vacation. Kind regards Bastian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emphasize teams, not packages
When somebody wants to become a DD he is told Go find a package to maintain, one that you can be the maintainer for. I see serious problems with this approach as Debian increases in DD's. I will how this is in a second. What I think should be emphasized is Go find a package team and join it and contribute and show your stuff. I think Debian needs to emphasize teams packaging, not just individuals for many reasons. First, as the announcement just came a few days ago some are ignoring their bugs for months. If a team was on the project that is less likely to happen. Second, collaboration on ideas for individual packages, by those who are directly involved with the package, can occur making the future of the package better. Third, Instead of always having the hard process of trying to get someone to adopt will go away for team members can take over. Fourth, MIA's will not be as big a problem. Fifth, more heads on a package are better than one Sixth, those applying to be a DD will have worked along side a Developer who will better see how this one contributes and fixes bugs. Seventh, It will increase teamwork. :) Now for my hypothetical situation: Future A: There are now 10,000 DD's and over 100,000 packages, most nobody uses, they are just there because they were needed by people who wanted to become DD's. Now that they are, those unused packages are ignored. A major upload occures and now there are 30,000 bugs on the BTS. Over 10,000 remain for months on these packages nobody cares about. The media speculates Debian will never again be stable, look at the bugs!!! Those who want to be DD's scramble for even more pointless packages, even more future bugs that will be ignored. People that do wan to fix some bugs won't know how and will apply for help from those who know nothing about their package and could care less. The bugs remain. This DD goes MIA in frustration. Future B. There are now 10,000 DD's and 40,000 packages in Debian. With that there are over 30,000 well established teams that collaborate on their package, with most DD's being a member of more than one team.. The 30,000 packages in Debian are the most requested in the Linux community. New packages are added as RFP's come in. Those who want to become DD's start by joining a team, especially being encouraged to join teams for existing packages where only 1-2 people are on that team. They start attacking bugs on those packages. A major Upload happens, and there are 10,000 RC bugs! Some team members are very busy that week but the other team members step in. Others are confused how to fix the bug, but collaboration with other team members comes to the rescue. Instead of taking several months to fix RC bugs it takes just over a month. People aw as Debian releases a new stable so quickly with more packages than any other disto by far. Team members have great ideas for the future of a package that couldn't have come to one man alone. A person now applys to become a DD with the backing of multiple members from multiple teams. Instead of Adoption lists and Orphaned packages we have lists of teams requesting more members. Anyways I think you get the point, Cheers, Frans _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
