How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Joseph Michael Smidt]

To the Debian Developers,

The Debian Project of course is the ultimate volunteer organization 
with a democratic community and top notch “open source” ideals.  It is in my 
opinion this is a project that all others could greatly take notes from.  The 
intent of this post is address what I feel is two of the most significant 
things that will increase contributions to the Debian Project by volunteers.

I believe the greatest barrier the Debian Project has in preventing 
widespread contributions from greater numbers of volunteers is a psychological 
barrier.  I have personally introduced Debian to several of my friends and 
always emphasize the idea that they too can contribute to the great cause 
whether by documentation, translation or adopting a package, etc...  
Universally they are excited, desire to try it out, then come back having read 
what it takes to be a Debian Developer and are overwhelmed.  They then begin 
searching out other open source projects where it seems psychologically they 
will be able to be more of an assistance.   I must emphasize I am not trying to 
argue the process of becoming a DD should be easier.(I personally think maybe 
it should be harder :) ).  It is to suggest there might be two things Debian 
could do to Take away from this psychological barrier.

1.)All people psychologically want to feel important and that they are an 
official part of an organization.  I feel there should be an official title for 
all contributers so they feel like they are part of the community, not just a 
pion until they get official developer status.  I feel the the title should be 
something like “Debian Contributer” and the qualifications should be things 
like: They have a Public Key, e-mail, IRC name, subscribe to official mailing 
lists, and have documented contributions they can post, even if it at first is 
no more that wiki posts.  Just something they can document for others to see 
they are contributing. I do not think they need to be given voting privileges 
or if so I would feel it should only be given in a limited sense..

2.).People need to be able to know whether they are on the right track and 
making progress.  They need a way to measure how effective they are 
contributing and see how they could do better. For this I propose there be some 
website they can log into with 10-12 sections like these:

a) Bugs I have reported.
b) Patches I have made
c) Packages I have adopted
d) Translations I have done
e) Documentation I have contributed to
f) Posts I have made on mailing lists.
g)etc...

 There also needs to be at least one other category:
h) Advocacy I have given to the open source community.

 This category needs to be there to emphasize they need to open their 
mouths about the wonders of open source.  Surely, one of the biggest reasons 
more people to join open source communities is because there is so little 
publicity about them.  People just don't know such things exist. :(  This will 
encourage all to spread the wealth. :)

This of course will not only help them see what they have so far done, 
but the different categories will help them see what areas they could be 
improving in to assist this great work.  It will also provide them a proper a 
path toward becoming a DD, pointing them in the right direction.

Now there are I think two hidden benefits from this.  First It will 
keep track of who is active and who is not since it will be documented.  MIA's 
will be immediately discovered.  Second, many will become a “Debain 
Contributer” , last for a couple months, and fall away.  However, during that 
initial excitement while they are being extreamly vocal with friends about the 
project in order to earn advocacy points, others will become contributers from 
their advocacy and out of that group of others will often emerge a real gem for 
the Debian Project. 

Skepticism:
  Like all ideas it will be healthy for many to be skeptical, for honest 
debate and discussion always makes ideas better.  I hope people debate the good 
and the bad about this idea remembering that only stating one sided opinions is 
not always helpful.  I admit these ideas could work, and they could also be a 
disaster.  Too much time and effort that could be spent in other areas of the 
project.  It may be something nobody signs up for or even cares about.  It may 
seem these are childish ideas for if people really wanted to contribute they 
would without needing a special title or login page. Maybe a login page for 
every person will take up too much space.  Or maybe because things are working 
fine just the way they are in Debian.  Whatever your arguments are I hope 
people will comment on both the good and bad so as everybody benefits from 
seeing the whole picture not just one side.

Conclusion:
I am certain if these ideas were implemented it might seem slow at first, 
however I believe they set foundations for the future.  It is the future of 
Debain a

Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Linas Zvirblis]

There are a lot of people out there that are willing to help Debian, but 
"Help Debian" does look a bit like a horror detective story.


I like the idea of an official title for contributers, but I am not so 
keen on I-did-this-and-that counters. You can count bug reports, posts 
made on the mailing list, but you cannot count the amount of work and 
ideas. Not everybody wants to join existing jobs. On the contrary, new 
people bring new ideas.


And this is the hard part. What if one does not want to report bugs, 
write documentation or do translation? What if all of this is already 
done by more experienced people? But what if one DOES want to start a 
new project, to found a new team etc.? There is next to zero public 
information regarding this matter. Sure, there are many ways to find 
out, but it is much easier when you have a guide.


Yes, I am new around here. Does it show? :)


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Fester]

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Joseph,

I had similar thoughts recently, so I enjoyed your mail.
Just some short comments:

Some of the things you mentioned are already
available, even if you are not an official developer.
For example,
- - your packages are listed at http://qa.debian.org/developer.php

- - of course you can make entries in the debian wiki at
  http://wiki.debian.net

- - Probably some of the statistics you propose (number of mails
  on mailing lists etc) can be calculated from a google search ;-)

- - You can of course have a public key, but in order to become
  a developer it must be signed by other developers.

But, what reflects my recent thoughts is the idea of having
more stages than only "Debian Developer".

You are already a Maintainer as soon as you have a package
in the archive. Speaking of an "official title" as you suggested,
maybe something like the following stages could be reasonable:

- - Having at least one package in the archive: "Debian Maintainer"

- - Having more packages in the archive, having contributed
  patches (probably also to the base Debian system),
  etc.: "Debian Contributor"

- - Being "Debian Contributor" for some time, having bug-free
  packages, having shown continous activity, and fulfilling
  all other requirements which are already necessary today:
  "Debian Developer"

My impression is that the process of becoming a developer
is very hard, both for the applicant but also for the
Application Managers. If someone contributed to the project
continously for a long time, then decides to apply for New
Maintainer which then takes another year (I dont know if this
is the usual case), this could be frustrating.

On the other hand, providing those stages above is also
time consuming and the transition from one stage to another
needs a well defined process, but the benefit would be
that there are several small transitions than only a
large one which could reduce the psychological barrier you
mentioned, as people might be even more motivated to continue
their work once they reached the first stage.

And, finally, I think that "... maybe because things are working
fine just the way they are ..." is reasonable, but I usually
prefer "... there is always room for improvement" :-)

Just my two cents,

best regards

Andreas

Joseph Michael Smidt wrote:

> I believe the greatest barrier the Debian Project has in preventing
> widespread contributions from greater numbers of volunteers is a
> psychological barrier.  I have personally introduced Debian to
[...]

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Linas Zvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-02 01:43:47]:

> There are a lot of people out there that are willing to help Debian, but 
> "Help Debian" does look a bit like a horror detective story.
> 
> I like the idea of an official title for contributers, but I am not so 
> keen on I-did-this-and-that counters. You can count bug reports, posts 
> made on the mailing list, but you cannot count the amount of work and 
> ideas. Not everybody wants to join existing jobs. On the contrary, new 
> people bring new ideas.
> 
> And this is the hard part. What if one does not want to report bugs, 
> write documentation or do translation? What if all of this is already 
> done by more experienced people? But what if one DOES want to start a 
> new project, to found a new team etc.? There is next to zero public 
> information regarding this matter. Sure, there are many ways to find 
> out, but it is much easier when you have a guide.

there are parts that provide a much easier and smoother entry to
helping debian. The debian-installer, the inofficial security
team and debian-edu for example are groups that allow even
non-Debian-Developers to get their hands dirty and do real
(important, relevant) work easily. This seems to have to do with
the people who lead those sub-projects/effords.

It would make sense to provide contact information for those
parts of the project that try to incorporate new people actively.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Lars Wirzenius]

ma, 2006-01-02 kello 09:03 +0100, Andreas Fester kirjoitti:
> You are already a Maintainer as soon as you have a package
> in the archive. Speaking of an "official title" as you suggested,
> maybe something like the following stages could be reasonable:

I find your title unambitious and suggest improvements.

> - - Having at least one package in the archive: "Debian Maintainer"

"Debian Vice President for Packaging Foo"

> - - Having more packages in the archive, having contributed
>   patches (probably also to the base Debian system),
>   etc.: "Debian Contributor"

"Debian Distinguished Fellow"

> - - Being "Debian Contributor" for some time, having bug-free
>   packages, having shown continous activity, and fulfilling
>   all other requirements which are already necessary today:
>   "Debian Developer"

"Debian Chairman of the Bored"

(No, I don't really think titles will attract most of the productive
kind contributors to Debian. Sorry.)

-- 
It doesn't matter who you are, it's what you do that takes you far.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Fester]

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> I find your title unambitious and suggest improvements.
> 
> 
>>- - Having at least one package in the archive: "Debian Maintainer"
> 
> 
> "Debian Vice President for Packaging Foo"

which could be subdivided into "Junior Vice President" (aka
co-maintainer) and "Senior Vice President" ;-)

> (No, I don't really think titles will attract most of the productive
> kind contributors to Debian. Sorry.)

I agree that "title" might not be appropriate. Thats why I primarily
talked about "stages" (maybe there is a better word...), which should
somehow reflect the knowledge and the contribution to the project.
Today, there is only "Developer". They have @debian.org email
address, they can upload packages, they have voting rights etc.

At the Apache Software Foundation, for example, there is the
"Committer" wo has write access to one or more CVS/SVN repositories,
and who also has an @apache.org email address. But no voting rights.
For Debian, for example, the permission to upload packages should still
be restricted to the most experienced people (Developers) who
can review the package quality.

Andreas

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Wouter Verhelst]

Op ma, 02-01-2006 te 11:24 +0100, schreef Andreas Fester:
> > (No, I don't really think titles will attract most of the productive
> > kind contributors to Debian. Sorry.)
> 
> I agree that "title" might not be appropriate. Thats why I primarily
> talked about "stages" (maybe there is a better word...), which should
> somehow reflect the knowledge and the contribution to the project.
> Today, there is only "Developer". They have @debian.org email
> address, they can upload packages, they have voting rights etc.

How is that a problem?

FWIW, I personally think that as it is, we already have way too much
bureaucracy in how we recruite new developers. I agree we should put a
line somewhere regarding who we let in and who we don't, but that
shouldn't be done by making it a process with more rules and regulations
which, accumulated, takes longer than the process to become a police
officer or so.

If even that.

> At the Apache Software Foundation, for example, there is the
> "Committer" wo has write access to one or more CVS/SVN repositories,
> and who also has an @apache.org email address. But no voting rights.

That's a horrible idea.

> For Debian, for example, the permission to upload packages should still
> be restricted to the most experienced people (Developers) who
> can review the package quality.

So you're not really changing anything then, are you? What's the
problem?

-- 
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../ .../ / ---/ ..-/ -/ -../ .-/ -/ ./ -../ / -/ ./ -.-./ / -./ ---/ .-../
---/ --./ -.--/ / .-/ -./ -.--/ .--/ .-/ -.--/ .-.-.-/ / ...-.-/


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Linas Zvirblis]

Andreas Schuldei wrote:


there are parts that provide a much easier and smoother entry to
helping debian. The debian-installer, the inofficial security
team and debian-edu for example are groups that allow even
non-Debian-Developers to get their hands dirty and do real
(important, relevant) work easily. This seems to have to do with
the people who lead those sub-projects/effords.

It would make sense to provide contact information for those
parts of the project that try to incorporate new people actively.


Well, most of them already have project websites, mailing list etc., so 
it is not that hard to get in contact with an existing project. What IS 
hard is getting involved in something that does not yet exist.


A hypothetical example: I decide to found a debian-geology team and I am 
not a Debian Developer. So what now? Should I help debian-med to become 
a DD? But I am not interested in medicine, I am interested in geology.


Not that this is a very common situation, but things happen.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Margarita Manterola]

On 1/1/06, Joseph Michael Smidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 1.)All people psychologically want to feel important and that they are an 
> official
> part of an organization.  I feel there should be an official title for all 
> contributers
> so they feel like they are part of the community, not just a pion until they 
> get official
> developer status.  I feel the the title should be something like "Debian 
> Contributer"

I had suggested something very much what you are suggesting here (only
that I asked for voting rights as well) about a year and a half ago.

After discussing this with a _lot_ of people, I came to accept that
this is not going to happen, or at least, it's not going to happen
from the top-down point of view that you are suggesting. i.e. the
Debian Project as itself is not going to add new categories of
memberships, nor do any special work for contributors to have more
status.

Yet, if *you* are really interested in getting more people involved in
Debian, you can help do it, but you'll have to do it bottom-down.

You suggest that people keep track of their contributions, everybody
can do that in their personal wiki page (yes, that's what Ubuntu does,
I don't know if it works or not).  You could encourage people to do
that.  It's not too hard, it's mainly adding links to other Debian
sites, and I guess it could be quite useful.

Most people that come close to Debian want to "help" but they don't
know where to help or how to help.  Maybe identifying possible areas
where they can put their efforts and put that up in a wiki-page could
be nice.  Like, explain the different teams there are (d-i, gnome,
etc)  the ways of communication of each team and who to contact if
wanting to help, or a mini-howto (with links to all the info there is
out there) on approaching the BTS and finding and fixing a bug.

So, rounding it up, if you have ideas as to how to get more people to
help Debian, your best course of action is to _go do it_.  Create a
wiki page, blog or get someone to blog about it on Planet, etc.  No
one is going to do it for you, but if you do it and are successful at
it (even if successful means only a small number of new contributors),
then it might start getting bigger.

I hope this is not discouraging, but rather encouraging. Really.

--
Love,
Marga

Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Zak B. Elep]

Hi Margarita! :-)

On 1/2/06, Margarita Manterola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You suggest that people keep track of their contributions, everybody
> can do that in their personal wiki page (yes, that's what Ubuntu does,
> I don't know if it works or not).  You could encourage people to do
> that.  It's not too hard, it's mainly adding links to other Debian
> sites, and I guess it could be quite useful.

Yes, personal WikiPages does work, I think the only thing missing for
this is to get wiki.debian.org visible enough so wannabe contributors
like me would use it frequently to keep track of their contributions.

> I hope this is not discouraging, but rather encouraging. Really.

Indeed, it is encouraging! :-)  At least, it got me looking for
orphaned packages to consider adopting ;)

Cheers,

Zakame

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Enrico Zini]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:02:34AM +0100, Andreas Schuldei wrote:

> there are parts that provide a much easier and smoother entry to
> helping debian. The debian-installer, the inofficial security
> team and debian-edu for example are groups that allow even
> non-Debian-Developers to get their hands dirty and do real
> (important, relevant) work easily. This seems to have to do with
> the people who lead those sub-projects/effords.
> It would make sense to provide contact information for those
> parts of the project that try to incorporate new people actively.

I'm part of, for example, cdd, debtags, pkg-italian (for Italians):
they can be added to the list.

I guess such a list would be faily big: in my experience, projects on
Alioth are usually fairly open to non-DD contributions, and Alioth makes
it easily possible.

There are lots such entry points in Debian, but people don't usually
notice them.  I guess it's partly because they are not called "Debian
Something", and in part because in many of them the barrier of entry
gets high in term of competences, since they have a substantial level of
specialisation.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Enrico Zini]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 02:53:52PM +0200, Linas Zvirblis wrote:

> A hypothetical example: I decide to found a debian-geology team and I am 
> not a Debian Developer. So what now? Should I help debian-med to become 
> a DD? But I am not interested in medicine, I am interested in geology.

 1) Open a geology project on Alioth and do some work.
 2) Ask for someone to sponsor package uploads.

The usual sponsors are then likely to find it convenient to join the
Alioth project as helpers for uploads, even if they are not particularly
interested in geology.  In the meantime, you get used at working with
Debian and you are super-quick at passing NM.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alexander Schmehl]

Hi!

* Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060102 10:21]:

> (No, I don't really think titles will attract most of the productive
> kind contributors to Debian. Sorry.)

Being one of those who contributed a lot, I disagree a bit.  I would
say, that having a title would be a "nice to have":  You could live
without it, you feel better, when you have it :)

Currently there are Debian Developers and the rest of the world.  Having
something semiformal would at least show some gratitude:  "Thanks, you
are not part of the consumers, you help us, you belong to us".


Yours sincerely,
  Alexander

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Enrico Zini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-02 22:26:46]:

> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:02:34AM +0100, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> 
> > there are parts that provide a much easier and smoother entry to
> > helping debian. The debian-installer, the inofficial security
> > team and debian-edu for example are groups that allow even
> > non-Debian-Developers to get their hands dirty and do real
> > (important, relevant) work easily. This seems to have to do with
> > the people who lead those sub-projects/effords.
> > It would make sense to provide contact information for those
> > parts of the project that try to incorporate new people actively.
> 
> I'm part of, for example, cdd, debtags, pkg-italian (for Italians):
> they can be added to the list.

i did not mean to suggest that those were the only good projects
in debian which actively encourage participation by non-dds.

> I guess such a list would be faily big: in my experience, projects on
> Alioth are usually fairly open to non-DD contributions, and Alioth makes
> it easily possible.

so should we try to compile such a list and advertise it better,
perhaps from the startpage on www.debian.org?




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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006, Alexander Schmehl wrote:
> * Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060102 10:21]:
> > (No, I don't really think titles will attract most of the productive
> > kind contributors to Debian. Sorry.)
> 
> Being one of those who contributed a lot, I disagree a bit. I would
> say, that having a title would be a "nice to have": You could live
> without it, you feel better, when you have it :)

Right. By the power vested in me, I hereby grant you the title of
"Potential Debian Contributor", with all the rights and reposibilities
therein.

If you send in 10 pulltabs, you can accheive the rank of "Proven
Debian Contributor". Operators are standing by.


Don Armstrong

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 02 January 2006 15:42, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> so should we try to compile such a list and advertise it better,
> perhaps from the startpage on www.debian.org?

http://www.debian.org/devel/join/ seems more suited for that.

That whole page could maybe be organized a bit better by separating the 
content into sections.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alejandro Bonilla]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:06:59 +0100, Frans Pop wrote
> On Monday 02 January 2006 15:42, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> > so should we try to compile such a list and advertise it better,
> > perhaps from the startpage on www.debian.org?
> 
> http://www.debian.org/devel/join/ seems more suited for that.
> 
> That whole page could maybe be organized a bit better by separating 
> the content into sections.

Sorry for jumping in, but if you want more Contributions, show the Volunteers
how to do things.

Linux has thousands on Volunteers and lots of people could do a lot more
things, fact is that people are not teached on how to get started. I don't
know how to.

I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached once, and if
the mentoring process to get ownership of one package wouldn't be a pain. I
once wanted to make a package for the ieee80211 stack or another small
package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a developer
friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try posting something.

1. It's too much of a pain, yes you are making it really complicated.
2. People could be teached on how to do or make new versions of packages or
things like that.
3. I say, leave the easy packages for newbie debian helpers and let the
difficult ones for the old-timers on Debian.

I would love to help, but the fact is that people that know how to do these
things like they know the palm of their hands, don't share information or
actually show people how to do things. I don't even know what is the whole
deal that is done when people move from gnome2.10 to gnome2.12. (I know is not
only packaging and uploading)

.Alejandro


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Steinar H. Gunderson]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 09:21:43AM -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached once, and if
> the mentoring process to get ownership of one package wouldn't be a pain. I
> once wanted to make a package for the ieee80211 stack or another small
> package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a developer
> friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try posting something.

There's a special mailing list for getting in touch with developers that
might be interested in sponsoring you -- try [EMAIL PROTECTED]

/* Steinar */
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alejandro Bonilla]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:28:06 +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote
> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 09:21:43AM -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> > I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached once, and if
> > the mentoring process to get ownership of one package wouldn't be a pain. I
> > once wanted to make a package for the ieee80211 stack or another small
> > package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a developer
> > friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try posting 
> > something.
> 
> There's a special mailing list for getting in touch with developers that
> might be interested in sponsoring you -- try [EMAIL PROTECTED]

They end up taking the project and maintaining them. Which is really fine by
me, but I will give it a shot again.

.Alejandro

> 
> /* Steinar */
> -- 
> Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/



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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Kevin B. McCarty]

Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:28:06 +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote
>> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 09:21:43AM -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
>> > I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached once, and 
>> > if
>> > the mentoring process to get ownership of one package wouldn't be a pain. I
>> > once wanted to make a package for the ieee80211 stack or another small
>> > package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a developer
>> > friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try posting 
>> > something.
>> 
>> There's a special mailing list for getting in touch with developers that
>> might be interested in sponsoring you -- try [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> They end up taking the project and maintaining them. Which is really fine by
> me, but I will give it a shot again.

Maybe there is some confusion about what debian-mentors does --
definitely no one there should take over your project.  The
debian-mentors list doesn't maintain anything, they only offer packaging
suggestions and provide a source of sponsors.  Could you please provide
a link so we can understand what happened?  I can't find any messages
from you in the debian-mentors list archive.

When you find a sponsor for your package (on debian-mentors or
elsewhere), you are still the official maintainer.  The sponsor will
build the package on his machine, check to make sure that it meets
Debian Policy and doesn't do anything evil, and upload it to Debian.
But you as the maintainer have the final responsibility for fixing bugs
in the package, updating it to new upstream versions, and so on.

best regards,

-- 
Kevin B. McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   Physics Department
WWW: http://www.princeton.edu/~kmccarty/Princeton University
GPG: public key ID 4F83C751 Princeton, NJ 08544


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Alejandro Bonilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-02 09:21:43]:

> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:06:59 +0100, Frans Pop wrote
> > On Monday 02 January 2006 15:42, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> > > so should we try to compile such a list and advertise it better,
> > > perhaps from the startpage on www.debian.org?
> > 
> > http://www.debian.org/devel/join/ seems more suited for that.
> > 
> > That whole page could maybe be organized a bit better by separating 
> > the content into sections.
> 
> Sorry for jumping in, but if you want more Contributions, show the Volunteers
> how to do things.

that is exactly is happening in those projects i and enrico
mentioned above. it does not start with sponsoring but with
working together. that leads to "shoing how to do things", if
that is required.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Kevin B. McCarty]

Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

> I would love to help, but the fact is that people that know how to do
> these things like they know the palm of their hands, don't share
> information or actually show people how to do things.

There is plenty of documentation about how to get started in creating a
Debian package.  Perhaps it's hard to find?  Two great starting points
are the Debian Mentors FAQ:
http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html
and the New Maintainer's Guide (in the maint-guide Debian package,
available in eleven languages).

The Debian Women project has created some documentation on their wiki:
http://women.alioth.debian.org/wiki/index.php/English/PackagingTutorial
(see also the other links under "Articles" in the sidebar)

and they also have a mentoring program:
http://women.alioth.debian.org/mentoring/

> I don't even know what is the whole deal that is done when people
> move from gnome2.10 to gnome2.12. (I know is not only packaging and
> uploading)

Do you ask this from the perspective of a packager, or a user?  If you
are packaging Gnome applications you may want to subscribe to the
debian-gtk-gnome@lists.debian.org list.  However, Gnome-related software
that is not part of the core set of Gnome packages should continue to
build and work through the transition, since the Gnome people haven't
changed the API or ABI of their libraries in a long time.  If you are
just using Gnome apps, everything should continue to Just Work (TM) --
if not, file a bug.

If instead your question is, "how did the Debian Gnome team update their
packaging to build Gnome 2.12 instead of Gnome 2.10?" -- this I don't
know.  You'll have to ask them directly, or else apt-get the source and
see for yourself.  But I don't understand why you need this information
(aside from curiosity) unless you are planning to join the Gnome team
yourself.

best regards,

-- 
Kevin B. McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   Physics Department
WWW: http://www.princeton.edu/~kmccarty/Princeton University
GPG: public key ID 4F83C751 Princeton, NJ 08544


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alejandro Bonilla]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:10:52 +0100, Andreas Schuldei wrote
> * Alejandro Bonilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-02 09:21:43]:
> 
> > On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:06:59 +0100, Frans Pop wrote
> > > On Monday 02 January 2006 15:42, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> > > > so should we try to compile such a list and advertise it better,
> > > > perhaps from the startpage on www.debian.org?
> > > 
> > > http://www.debian.org/devel/join/ seems more suited for that.
> > > 
> > > That whole page could maybe be organized a bit better by separating 
> > > the content into sections.
> > 
> > Sorry for jumping in, but if you want more Contributions, show the 
> > Volunteers
> > how to do things.
> 
> that is exactly is happening in those projects i and enrico
> mentioned above. it does not start with sponsoring but with
> working together. that leads to "shoing how to do things", if
> that is required.

Cool, on which projects?

.Alejandro


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alejandro Bonilla]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:22:00 -0500, Kevin B. McCarty wrote
> Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> 
> > I would love to help, but the fact is that people that know how to do
> > these things like they know the palm of their hands, don't share
> > information or actually show people how to do things.
> 
> There is plenty of documentation about how to get started in 
> creating a Debian package.  Perhaps it's hard to find?  Two great 
> starting points are the Debian Mentors FAQ: 
> http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html and the 
> New Maintainer's Guide (in the maint-guide Debian package, available 
> in eleven languages).

Thanks for the info, I will look into it.

> 
> The Debian Women project has created some documentation on their 
> wiki: http://women.alioth.debian.org/wiki/index.php/English/PackagingTutorial
> (see also the other links under "Articles" in the sidebar)
> 
> and they also have a mentoring program:
> http://women.alioth.debian.org/mentoring/
> 
> > I don't even know what is the whole deal that is done when people
> > move from gnome2.10 to gnome2.12. (I know is not only packaging and
> > uploading)
> 
> Do you ask this from the perspective of a packager, or a user?  If 
> you are packaging Gnome applications you may want to subscribe to 
> the debian-gtk-gnome@lists.debian.org list.  However, Gnome-related software
> that is not part of the core set of Gnome packages should continue to
> build and work through the transition, since the Gnome people haven't
> changed the API or ABI of their libraries in a long time.  If you are
> just using Gnome apps, everything should continue to Just Work (TM) -
> - if not, file a bug.
> 
> If instead your question is, "how did the Debian Gnome team update their
> packaging to build Gnome 2.12 instead of Gnome 2.10?" -- this I don't
> know.  You'll have to ask them directly, or else apt-get the source and
> see for yourself.  But I don't understand why you need this information
> (aside from curiosity) unless you are planning to join the Gnome team
> yourself.

Well, I could join any team that would actually need any help and that they
could mentor someone on how to do the job.

I said gnome because is one of the most normal things that constantly have to
be moved from versions and versions... And I mean, how they really do it. I'm
also part of debian-gtk ML and there isn't much activity (or i'm in the wrong 
one)

Thanks for the info!

.Alejandro

> 
> best regards,
> 
> -- 
> Kevin B. McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   Physics Department
> WWW: http://www.princeton.edu/~kmccarty/Princeton University
> GPG: public key ID 4F83C751 Princeton, NJ 08544
> 
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Joseph Michael Smidt]

Well I decided to grab the bull by the horns.  

Margarita Manterola had this to say:

So, rounding it up, if you have ideas as to how to get more people to
help Debian, your best course of action is to _go do it_. Create a
wiki page, blog or get someone to blog about it on Planet, etc. No
one is going to do it for you, but if you do it and are successful at
it (even if successful means only a small number of new contributors),
then it might start getting bigger.
I hope this is not discouraging, but rather encouraging. Really.

So I have done so.  I have added this concept to the wiki, under the 
development section DebianContributerProject.  I will maintain this wiki but do 
ask for all to please contribute for the reasons I have already stated as well 
as the fact that I really believe this will keep Debian much more organized.  
For example:

Andreas Fester said:

Some of the things you mentioned are already
available, even if you are not an official developer.
For example,
- - your packages are listed at http://qa.debian.org/developer.php

- - of course you can make entries in the debian wiki at
  http://wiki.debian.net

- - Probably some of the statistics you propose (number of mails
  on mailing lists etc) can be calculated from a google search ;-)

But the problem here is the lack or organization in this respect: You have to 
go multiple places to keep track of everything.  I do not think this is as 
efficient as it ought to be.  I think it is more practical if everything is 
networked together from one place.

I ask those who maintain the website to link to this wiki under the how to help 
Debian sections.  I will write a separate letter to their mailing list.

Please contribute to this effort by adding your wiki page to this project.  I 
believe it will greatly increase or organization and help the whole Debian 
project run more efficiently.  Many have more wiki skills than I do so please 
make the wiki pages better and send me ideas.  Thanks for all your helpful 
suggestions, because of you this project, which I believe will become an 
official part of how Debian runs, has begun.

Joseph Smidt

422 Wymount
Provo, UT 84604
phone: 801-371-5564
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a developer
> friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try posting something.

Supposedly, one post to debian-mentors should have gotten you started. I
guess the "How can you help us" www.debian.org page could use some better
linking.

> I would love to help, but the fact is that people that know how to do these
> things like they know the palm of their hands, don't share information or
> actually show people how to do things. I don't even know what is the whole

Anyone in that position, please ask yourself these two questions:

  1. Did you ever ask your doubts in debian-mentors if they are not too
 specific (or you feel they're newbie-ish), or on debian-devel or to
 more specialized forums if they are indeed very specific?

  2. Did you do anything for the prospective teachers to feel that investing
 their time on you would have good return (i.e.  helped around, showed
 interest and asked questions after clearly having tried to find it out
 by yourself first...) ?

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

Your ideas reminds me of the Mandriva Club system, where users can
come together and show their commitment and involvement in Madriva
(previously Mandrake Linux).  The site is supposed to be
http://club.mandriva.com/>, but I'm unable to get any response
from it.  The google cache gave me this intro:

  Welcome to Mandriva Club !

  Mandriva Club is a place where members can download the latest
  Mandriva Linux distributions including commercial applications and
  plugins, ATI and Nvidia drivers, Club specific distributions, can
  gain access to a collaborative knowledge base related to Mandriva
  Linux use, can gain access to commercial RPMs, can get special
  discount on Mandriva Store, can chat with Mandriva team, and much
  more... Join the Mandriva Club, download now and take the most of
  your Mandriva Linux system!

  Enterprise, corporate or public sector users: please visit the
  Mandriva Corporate Club to gain access to Mandriva's industry
  leading, 5 year supported enterprise solutions such as: Mandriva
  Corporate Server 3, Mandriva Corporate Desktop, Mandriva HPC
  Cluster, and Mandriva Multi Network Firewall 2.

I suspect a similar system for Debian might increase visibility and
commitment from a large set of users.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Russ Allbery]

Andreas Fester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> My impression is that the process of becoming a developer is very hard,
> both for the applicant but also for the Application Managers. If someone
> contributed to the project continously for a long time, then decides to
> apply for New Maintainer which then takes another year (I dont know if
> this is the usual case), this could be frustrating.

It really isn't *hard*, though.  That's the thing.  If you've worked with
Debian for a while and read all the documentation, it's not at all
difficult to become a Debian developer and there are a lot of people
available to help.

It's *time consuming*, for both the applicant and the AM (and the DAM).
That's what people complain about.  It can take most of a year, or even
more.  But that's not time spent constantly working; most of that time is
spent waiting in various queues for someone to have free time.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Mark Brown]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 07:11:26PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:

> I suspect a similar system for Debian might increase visibility and
> commitment from a large set of users.

With the exception of the web forums and most of the commercial stuff
that does sound rather like debian.org.

-- 
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Rudi Effe]

Am Sonntag 01 Januar 2006 19:46 schrieb Joseph Michael Smidt:
> h) Advocacy I have given to the open source community.

Dear Joseph,

happy new year to you all. In this matter, I'd like to stress the 
importance to gain the youth, i.e. pupils, for free software, i.e. 
GNU/Linux. I plea to support all Edu-Projects (KDE-Edu, Debian-Edu 
etc.), therefore. Spread kid-friendly live CDs to your environment (I 
can recommend http://www.skolelinux.no/~conrad/snofrix.html), ask your 
local school to use free software, develop artwork and software for 
pupils and kids. 

That's my 2 pence for now.

Regards
rUdi


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Monday 02 January 2006 16.21, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
[...]
> I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached once, and
> if the mentoring process to get ownership of one package wouldn't be a
> pain. I once wanted to make a package for the ieee80211 stack or another
> small package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a
> developer friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try
> posting something.

Huh?  That's just not true.

You can make a package all on your own, no problem at all.  Look at 
, most relevant documentation is linked 
from there.  Ask anybody on pretty much any IRC channel or mailing list 
about Debian, and somebody will point you probably to the debian-mentors 
mailing list.  In my experience, if you have actual packaging problems you 
will get answers. (your question about HDAPS got you two offers of help - I 
didn't research if I found any later results, but to me that looked not too 
bad.)

Packaging is hard work, and you'll have to learn a lot, but you can do 
everything you need except actually upload the package.  Only in the end 
will you need a DD to do the upload. 

cheers
-- vbi


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alejandro Bonilla]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:34:31 +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote
> On Monday 02 January 2006 16.21, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> [...]
> > I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached once, and
> > if the mentoring process to get ownership of one package wouldn't be a
> > pain. I once wanted to make a package for the ieee80211 stack or another
> > small package, but NO. I had to know someone, that the someone had a
> > developer friend that would actually trust me, to ever be able to try
> > posting something.
> 
> Huh?  That's just not true.
> 
> You can make a package all on your own, no problem at all.  Look at 
> , most relevant documentation is 
> linked from there.  Ask anybody on pretty much any IRC channel or 
> mailing list about Debian, and somebody will point you probably to 
> the debian-mentors mailing list.  In my experience, if you have 
> actual packaging problems you will get answers. (your question about 
> HDAPS got you two offers of help - I didn't research if I found any 
> later results, but to me that looked not too bad.)

The HDAPS guys did a great and fast Job and they packaged things up and it all
works so far. They were of great help.

I most have not digged in enough and fact is that I got to a point that it was
easier to throw the ball to someone for them to package stuff up. ;-)

> 
> Packaging is hard work, and you'll have to learn a lot, but you can 
> do everything you need except actually upload the package.  Only in 
> the end will you need a DD to do the upload.

True, OK. I will look at how to package and if I find something interesting
then I will look for a DD.

Thanks,

.Alejandro

> 
> cheers
> -- vbi


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Alejandro Bonilla]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:55:01 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:34:31 +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote
> > On Monday 02 January 2006 16.21, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

BTW, Who da hell is some AntiSpam UOL? Everytime that I send an email to
debian-devel that stupid machine sends me an email. Is there a way to block?

.Alejandro


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Linas Zvirblis]

Alejandro Bonilla wrote:


BTW, Who da hell is some AntiSpam UOL? Everytime that I send an email to
debian-devel that stupid machine sends me an email. Is there a way to block?


Yes, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] is back. You will just have to 
block this address on your side until listmaster takes care of this.



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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:11:26 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
said: 

> I suspect a similar system for Debian might increase visibility and
> commitment from a large set of users.

Lacking quality control of the input, I am not at all
 convinced that this is desirable. You know the "old adage of computer
 men", GIGO.

manoj
 Garbage in, Garbage out
-- 
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to
make it shorter. -- Blaise Pascal
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:21:43 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:06:59 +0100, Frans Pop wrote
>> On Monday 02 January 2006 15:42, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
>> > so should we try to compile such a list and advertise it better,
>> > perhaps from the startpage on www.debian.org?
>> 
>> http://www.debian.org/devel/join/ seems more suited for that.
>> 
>> That whole page could maybe be organized a bit better by separating
>> the content into sections.

> Sorry for jumping in, but if you want more Contributions, show the
> Volunteers how to do things.

> Linux has thousands on Volunteers and lots of people could do a lot
> more things, fact is that people are not teached on how to get
> started. I don't know how to.

Have you ever considered that the project may want to select
 for people who can help themselves?  Who are self motivated, and have
 at least enough experience to be able to browse www.debian.org,
 notice that there is a "Help Debian" link? That we need quality far
 more than we need quantity?

As that link points out (and as anyone can see from the front
 page) There also a "Developers corner" link, and the help debian page
 also tells you that you can ask debian-mentors mailing list?

I am not sure how much help anyone can be, if the can't even
 get to this information.

> I could support or maintain some packages if I could be teached
> once, and if the mentoring process to get ownership of one package
> wouldn't be a pain. I once wanted to make a package for the
> ieee80211 stack or another small package, but NO. I had to know
> someone, that the someone had a developer friend that would actually
> trust me, to ever be able to try posting something.

Err, this happens not to be the truth. Anyone can make
 packages for themselves, and distribute them, by following links on
 the "Help Debian" page or the "Developers Corner" page. Getting it
 into Debian takes more effort, and one has to meet the QA
 requirements, but this latter bit is something we should not change,
 really.


manoj
-- 
Why is it that when you DIE, you can't take your HOME ENTERTAINMENT
CENTER with you??
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Neil McGovern]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 07:11:26PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> 
> Your ideas reminds me of the Mandriva Club system, where users can
[Snip]

Sounds like an idea that's being thrown around at the moment:
http://wiki.debian.org/FriendsOfDebian

:P

Neil
-- 
   __   
 .`  `. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Application Manager
 : :' !  | Secure-Testing Team member
 '. `-  gpg: B345BDD3| Webapps Team member
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Neil McGovern]
> Sounds like an idea that's being thrown around at the moment:
> http://wiki.debian.org/FriendsOfDebian

Ah, right.  Very good idea indeed. :)

That page even had a few more of those.  Perhaps we should just go
ahead and implement it . :)


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> I suspect a similar system for Debian might increase visibility and
>> commitment from a large set of users.
>
> Lacking quality control of the input, I am not at all
>  convinced that this is desirable. You know the "old adage of computer
>  men", GIGO.

All the given examples (like secure-testing, d-i, debian-kernel and lots
of other Alioth projects) have far better precautions against crap
entering the archive than the traditional one-man-show approach. Peer
review through an svn-commits mailing list is the best that can happen
to a sub-project or package.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 23:59:41 +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>>> I suspect a similar system for Debian might increase visibility
>>> and commitment from a large set of users.
>> 
>> Lacking quality control of the input, I am not at all convinced
>> that this is desirable. You know the "old adage of computer men",
>> GIGO.

> All the given examples (like secure-testing, d-i, debian-kernel and
> lots of other Alioth projects) have far better precautions against
> crap entering the archive than the traditional one-man-show
> approach. Peer review through an svn-commits mailing list is the
> best that can happen to a sub-project or package.

Given the choice between having to double check work done by
 potentially inexperienced folks, and ensuring that the package is
 done by people who can do some of the double checking on their own,
 and make less errors, I'd go for the latter every time.

Debugging/proof reading other peoples work is always more
 thankless, error prone, and often less thorough than following good
 practices and minimizing errors the first time around. And that comes
 with experience.

Now, if you had a bunch of actual peers we were talking about,
 then sure, more eyes do make for lighter work. But that is not what
 we are discussing. We are talking about letting almost anybody
 commit, and hope that the experienced person will catch all the
 mistakes. I am not convinced that the mistake shall not grow in the
 end product in this case.

manoj
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andrew Vaughan]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:52, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Given the choice between having to double check work done by
>  potentially inexperienced folks, and ensuring that the package is
>  done by people who can do some of the double checking on their own,
>  and make less errors, I'd go for the latter every time.
>
> Debugging/proof reading other peoples work is always more
>  thankless, error prone, and often less thorough than following good
>  practices and minimizing errors the first time around. And that comes
>  with experience.
>
> Now, if you had a bunch of actual peers we were talking about,
>  then sure, more eyes do make for lighter work. But that is not what
>  we are discussing. We are talking about letting almost anybody
>  commit, and hope that the experienced person will catch all the
>  mistakes. I am not convinced that the mistake shall not grow in the
>  end product in this case.
>
Yes, but it's only by doing the work, either maintaining their own package, 
or submitting patches / directly committing to team maintained packages 
that people gain the skills they need to become DDs.  

Whats needed is a genuine team of 2-5 suitable new maintainer 'peers' 
co-maintaining half a dozen similar or related small packages (or one-two 
medium packages) plus one DD reviewing changes and sponsoring uploads every 
few weeks.  Beginners can start off sending patches by mail, either to a 
mailing list, or to bug reports.  (I do agree there should be some sort of 
control over commit access).  If they don't know enough to contribute they 
will either learn, or drop out.  (It worth pointing out that handling bug 
reports can be a useful contribution.)  Once they have shown that they can 
contribute they can be given commit access.  

The one of the goals of this sort of team maintenance should be team members 
helping each other learn.  

The end result in terms of package quality should be less bugs than the 
current process of each individual new maintainer maintaining a couple of 
packages and a DD sponsoring the occasional upload.  Yeah, there will 
probably will be more bugs committed to version control, but their will 
(hopefully) be more sets of eyes catching them.

The apprentice maintainers don't need to maintain important packages.  There 
are plenty of priority optional/extra packages, many with alternative 
packages with similar functionality.  

The DD does not have to do any more work per upload than they would under 
the current system. 

The main point is that this sort of team lowers the bar to entry.  Someone 
who lacks the skills to create their own package can still contribute.  And 
by contributing they can learn new skills.

Just my 2 cents

Andrew V.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 10:29:30PM +0800, Enrico Zini wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 02:53:52PM +0200, Linas Zvirblis wrote:

> > A hypothetical example: I decide to found a debian-geology team and I am 
> > not a Debian Developer. So what now? Should I help debian-med to become 
> > a DD? But I am not interested in medicine, I am interested in geology.

>  1) Open a geology project on Alioth and do some work.
>  2) Ask for someone to sponsor package uploads.

Hmm, I would actually hope that the Alioth admins would reject an
application from a non-DD in step 1) for a project that hasn't already had
step 2) happen.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Thomas Hood]

Joseph Michael Smidt wrote:
>   I believe the greatest barrier the Debian Project has in preventing 
> widespread
> contributions from greater numbers of volunteers is a psychological barrier.  
> I have
> personally introduced Debian to several of my friends and always emphasize 
> the idea
> that they too can contribute to the great cause whether by documentation, 
> translation
> or adopting a package, etc...  Universally they are excited, desire to try it 
> out,
> then come back having read what it takes to be a Debian Developer and are
> overwhelmed.  They then begin searching out other open source projects where 
> it seems
> psychologically they will be able to be more of an assistance.


They are right: most probably they will find it easier to make contributions to 
other
projects.

What is missing from your message is the argument why this should be changed.  
Would it
in fact be a good thing if your friends devoted their time to Debian rather 
than to
those other projects?  It is not obvious to me that that would be better.  The 
"great
cause" is the free software movement as a whole.  Within that movement there 
should be
room for different kinds of projects, including exclusive hobby clubs.
-- 
Thomas Hood


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Thomas Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-03 12:24:29]:
> They are right: most probably they will find it easier to make contributions 
> to other
> projects.

we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to
debian more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD"
in comparison. we should leave that option for the ones that want
to contribute above average.


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006, Andrew Vaughan wrote:
> Whats needed is a genuine team of 2-5 suitable new maintainer 'peers' 

[...]

You just described how Alioth-based team maintainership works when it
involves people who aren't DDs, which it often does AFAIK.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Thomas Hood]

Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to debian more 
> prominently
> and should hide the "how to become a DD" in comparison. we should leave that 
> option
> for the ones that want to contribute above average.


If there is any truth to what Joseph Michael Smidt originally said:

> 1.)All people psychologically want to feel important and that they are an 
> official
> part of an organization.  I feel there should be an official title for all
> contributers so they feel like they are part of the community, not just a 
> pion until
> they get official developer status.

then it might help to reword several pages at debian.org so that they are more
inclusive.  Rename "Developers' Corner" to "Contributors' Corner".  Under "The 
People"
write "This is a comprehensive listing of all the Debian _maintainers_ 
accompanied
with a list of packages they maintain", instead of "...developers..." (which 
would
also be more accurate since non-DD maintainers are already listed).  And so on.
Reword with the principle in mind that there are many contributors to Debian 
who are
not Debian Developers®.
-- 
Thomas Hood

Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Zak B. Elep]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Andreas!

On 1/3/06, Andreas Schuldei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Thomas Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-03 12:24:29]:
> > They are right: most probably they will find it easier to make
> > contributions to other projects.
>
> we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to
> debian more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD"
> in comparison. we should leave that option for the ones that want
> to contribute above average.

Hm, perhaps something like Corey Burger's HelpingUbuntu wikipage?[1] I
for one would like to see a HelpingDebian page where we could outline
these various points of entry...

... then again, I just noticed DebianContributerProject.[2] Not that I'm
a killjoy, but that ought to be Contributor, not Contributer[3] ;)

[1]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu
[2]  http://wiki.debian.org/DebianContributerProject
[3]  http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=gcide&Query=Contribute

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:50:22 +0100, Andreas Schuldei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> * Thomas Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-03 12:24:29]:
>> They are right: most probably they will find it easier to make
>> contributions to other projects.

> we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to debian
> more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD" in
> comparison.

What on earth for?

> we should leave that option for the ones that want to contribute
> above average.

We are trying to build the best distribution of linux on the
 planet, not the so-so ditribution created by the most number of
 people.  Why do you think that an excellent direbution can come by
 with contribution of people who are, in your own words, below
 average? 

manoj
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-03 22:30:09]:
> >> They are right: most probably they will find it easier to make
> >> contributions to other projects.
> 
> > we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to debian
> > more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD" in
> > comparison.
> 
> What on earth for?

are you asking or do you want to argue a point?

if you are asking: people who want to help/contribute seem to be
turned away by the burecratic nature of the NM process with it's
long waiting periodes. People who want to contribute without that
process need to find a way to do that easily and effectively,
without spending too much time to find where they can do that.

> > we should leave that option for the ones that want to contribute
> > above average.
> 
> We are trying to build the best distribution of linux on the
>  planet, not the so-so ditribution created by the most number of
>  people.  Why do you think that an excellent direbution can come by
>  with contribution of people who are, in your own words, below
>  average? 

Manoj, i think you are trying to polarize the discussion. Please
try not to do that. it does not help to reach a good conclusion.

Please realize that there is a difference between people who want
to *contribute* above average and *people* below average.

One such difference could be technical excellent people who want
to help without spending time on packaging issues (as NM in its
current form often does) but rather on their field of excellence,
which could be coding or graphical design or in the legal area.

Other, merely average people could be willing to do the boring
donkey work of coding, graphical design or legal stuff, unloading
those few geniuses we have. If done properly, even the ones BELOW
average could contribute, be happy and feel appreciate. Luckily
that is possible today already. We dont just need to utilize the
elite for all purposes.

They all could help quicker and more directly if they could be
routed to the places where they are needed *just now* without a
detour over NM. Their help would contribute to making debian the
best distribution. 


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Thomas Hood]

Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to debian
> more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD" in
> comparison.

Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> What on earth for?

Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> [...] people who want to help/contribute seem to be
> turned away by the burecratic nature of the NM process with its
> long waiting periods. People who want to contribute without that
> process need to find a way to do that easily and effectively,
> without spending too much time to find where they can do that.
> [...]
> Manoj, i think you are trying to polarize the discussion.


I think that the discussion is already polarized; there is obviously a sharp
difference of view.  The disagreement is reflected in the inconsistency between
the existence of "easy entry points", which you favor. and the whole philosophy
behind the NM process, which was presumably favored by those who set up that
process.

You seem to be assuming that Debian should encourage people to contribute,
whereas the NM process was deliberately set up to discourage applicants.
You assume that applicants are scarce, but the assumption behind NM is that
there are more than enough. You assume that newcomers can be given the benefit
of the doubt, whereas the assumption behind NM is that newcomers should not be
trusted until they have endured trials.  You assume that contributors are
different, but the assumption behind NM is that developers all need to learn
the same skills.  You assume that people can learn as they go, but NM insists
that applicants learn everything up front.

If there are "easy entry points" in Debian which allow non-DDs to do the same
work as DDs then I can see why a defender of the current NM process would
regard those points as weaknesses in Debian's defenses, which should be closed
rather than advertized.
-- 
Thomas Hood


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Kevin Mark]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 12:20:07PM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote:
> Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> > we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to debian
> > more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD" in
> > comparison.
> 
> Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > What on earth for?
> 
> Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> > [...] people who want to help/contribute seem to be
> > turned away by the burecratic nature of the NM process with its
> > long waiting periods. People who want to contribute without that
> > process need to find a way to do that easily and effectively,
> > without spending too much time to find where they can do that.
> > [...]
> > Manoj, i think you are trying to polarize the discussion.
> 
> 
> I think that the discussion is already polarized; there is obviously a sharp
> difference of view.  The disagreement is reflected in the inconsistency 
> between
> the existence of "easy entry points", which you favor. and the whole 
> philosophy
> behind the NM process, which was presumably favored by those who set up that
> process.
> 
> You seem to be assuming that Debian should encourage people to contribute,
> whereas the NM process was deliberately set up to discourage applicants.
> You assume that applicants are scarce, but the assumption behind NM is that
> there are more than enough. You assume that newcomers can be given the benefit
> of the doubt, whereas the assumption behind NM is that newcomers should not be
> trusted until they have endured trials.  You assume that contributors are
> different, but the assumption behind NM is that developers all need to learn
> the same skills.  You assume that people can learn as they go, but NM insists
> that applicants learn everything up front.
> 
> If there are "easy entry points" in Debian which allow non-DDs to do the same
> work as DDs then I can see why a defender of the current NM process would
> regard those points as weaknesses in Debian's defenses, which should be closed
> rather than advertized.
> -- 
> Thomas Hood
Hi Thomas,
almost all of the discussion about 'contributing' seems to focus on
doing development work on packages. So Debian wants it to be a
weeding-out process-thus the NM process. But are there any other types
of contribution that can be encouraged by making a clear list and howto?

translators, bandwith hosts, sponsors for debian events, supporting
debian-user and irc, LUGs that hold 'debian day' and pass out cd's,
creating forum for users to encourage/support local business/governemt to move 
to
debian. Selling lance armstrong-type red swirl bracelets? 

These are but a few ideas, of which I think some are already on the website.

To contribute to debian while primarlly involves MAKING it, there are
other less technical and/or social things that may bring
people/interest/money to our efforts like support and fandom. 
One area where less technical folks can surely help is
Documentations(Osamu Aoki yea!), proofreading debian documents in all of
our various languages, some of which require translations.(Christian
Perrier yea!) And for people who want to learn the step/skills to become
DD's, maybe a DD can create a work book/pdf that would list important
skills, websites to visit and exercises that should be attempted to be
better prepared for NM. Would it be better if NM's were given a study
guide before the NM process? Why not use some of the older DD NM test
material for this. And prehaps a seperate guide for folks intending to
be translators as Debian thinks they need NM skills of some degree.  
Again, these may all be in the debian-devel or -mentor site.

anyway, Debian should make SOME area easier, not ones involving code.
pax vobiscum,
Kev
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Zak B. Elep]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Andreas!

On 1/4/06, Andreas Schuldei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please realize that there is a difference between people who want
> to *contribute* above average and *people* below average.

While I agree that there are contributions that are either above, below,
or just the average, I wouldn't try to make a point on the basis of
quantitizing contributions.  For all you know, there are other persons,
indeed persons like you, who take pride of their work, no matter how big
or small it may seem to be in your eyes.

I feel that a better metric of contribution fall on the dedication and
`heart' of contributing; but alas, there's not much of a way to
quantitize that (dedication, mayhaps...)

> They all could help quicker and more directly if they could be
> routed to the places where they are needed *just now* without a
> detour over NM. Their help would contribute to making debian the
> best distribution.

Hmm, perhaps they could use some hints not just on the Developers'
Corner,[1] but also on the main page?[2] While I must say the main
Debian page is jam-packed with news and security updates, I find it too
bare for those in the want of contributing; there's just the Corner
link.

[1]  http://www.debian.org/devel/
[2]  http://www.debian.org/

Just one thing ought to be sure; whatever things may go, a serious
contributor will remain unfazed in contributing to Debian.  I just hope
that we somehow get out of this rut.

Cheers,

Zakame

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:39:55 +0100, Andreas Schuldei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> * Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-03 22:30:09]:
>> >> They are right: most probably they will find it easier to make
>> >> contributions to other projects.
>> 
>> > we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to
>> > debian more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD"
>> > in comparison.
>> 
>> What on earth for?

> are you asking or do you want to argue a point?

Depends on how you take it, I guess.

> if you are asking: people who want to help/contribute seem to be
> turned away by the burecratic nature of the NM process with it's
> long waiting periodes. People who want to contribute without that
> process need to find a way to do that easily and effectively,
> without spending too much time to find where they can do that.

The NM process  has the goal of a) ensuring that people who
 can run code as root on myriads of machines of Debian users have
 demonstrated a modicum of competence, and b) these people have agreed
 to uphold the principles and share the common cause that drives
 Debian, c) there is a minimal assurance that one knows who these
 people are, and, possibly, d) these people stand up and demosntrate
 some dedication to the project, so the trust palced in them is not
 misplaced.


People who do not want to undergo that process can just help
 out current developers, fix bugs, send patches, etc. But
 responsibility can only be given to people who actually demonstrate
 the 4 points above; the quality of Debian is at stake.

>> > we should leave that option for the ones that want to contribute
>> > above average.
>> 
>> We are trying to build the best distribution of linux on the
>> planet, not the so-so ditribution created by the most number of
>> people.  Why do you think that an excellent direbution can come by
>> with contribution of people who are, in your own words, below
>> average?

> Manoj, i think you are trying to polarize the discussion. Please try
> not to do that. it does not help to reach a good conclusion.

So say you. I think you are the one polarizing the discussion
 as much as I, proposing that we throw open the Debian project
 products to the whole wide world out there. One can just look at Red
 Hat contrib areas to see how well that works.

> Please realize that there is a difference between people who want to
> *contribute* above average and *people* below average.

I am not sure I want "below average" contributions, if you are
 talking about quality. If you are talking about dilettantes, heck,
 the can contribute via patches sent to the BTS. Recognition should be
 commensurate with the effort spent; tyros and dilettantes get less
 recognition than people who are committed to the project and do the
 heavy lifting.

> One such difference could be technical excellent people who want to
> help without spending time on packaging issues (as NM in its current
> form often does) but rather on their field of excellence, which
> could be coding or graphical design or in the legal area.

I have no objection to creating ways apart from the BTS where
 such effort can be funneled into the project. I am merely vocing
 objections to lowering the bar for people who are responsible for
 Debian packages, and can thus run code as root on my machine


> They all could help quicker and more directly if they could be
> routed to the places where they are needed *just now* without a
> detour over NM. Their help would contribute to making debian the
> best distribution.

The "Help Debian" link on the web page is too obscure?

manoj
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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Roger Leigh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:39:55 +0100, Andreas Schuldei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
>> Please realize that there is a difference between people who want to
>> *contribute* above average and *people* below average.
>
> I am not sure I want "below average" contributions, if you are
>  talking about quality. If you are talking about dilettantes, heck,
>  the can contribute via patches sent to the BTS. Recognition should be
>  commensurate with the effort spent; tyros and dilettantes get less
>  recognition than people who are committed to the project and do the
>  heavy lifting.

In the case of someone who attaches a patch to a bug report, I think
getting a mention in the Debian (or upstream) ChangeLog is sufficient.
I generally also even mention bug submitters in the Debian changelog,
as a way of thanking them for the time they took to identify and
investigate a bug.  I treat both fellow developers and non-developers
the same in this respect.

Realistically, what more can we do?


Regards,
Roger

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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 12:20:07PM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote:
> You seem to be assuming that Debian should encourage people to contribute,
> whereas the NM process was deliberately set up to discourage applicants.
> You assume that applicants are scarce, but the assumption behind NM is that
> there are more than enough. 

For those playing along at home, Thomas recently withdrew his application
from n-m after some absurdly long delays, and declined to withdraw the
withdrawal when a number of developers, including his application manager,
offered assistance. As an obvious corollory Thomas doesn't have access to
the -private archives where the NM process was developed, so shouldn't
be taken as an authority on the assumptions behind NM, or the reasons
for which the NM process was setup.

Anyway, the real point of replying was for me to have some fun playing
(what I'll hereby dub) the false dichotomy game. That's where you take
a set of contradictory statements, and setup reasonable scenarios where,
in fact, both alternatives are true simultaneously.

> You assume that newcomers can be given the benefit
> of the doubt, whereas the assumption behind NM is that newcomers should not be
> trusted until they have endured trials.  

This one's good because there are a variety of responses. A simple one is
to give people the benefit of the doubt in how they handle their trials.
But it's not really quite on point, since the real question is whether
one should have faith in people's innate goodness, or whether you should
protect yourself against bad apples. Most of what I want to say about that
I've already blogged [0] in response to a post of Joey Hess's [1] though.

An interesting possibility worth mentioning is to make the trial be
seeing what they do when given the benefit of the doubt: that requires
a few things, notably scaled levels of trust, and an ability to recover
from instances where your trust turns out to be unfounded.

> You assume that contributors are
> different, but the assumption behind NM is that developers all need to learn
> the same skills.  

(This is counterfactual, since NM includes at least two classes of
applicants who need to learn different skills, namely packagers and
documenters, and AMs can of course make whatever special cases they
see fit. It's also the opposite of Thomas's experience in withdrawing
his application too, given his response to offers of assistance from
his AM and other developers was to indicate he didn't want the special
treatment that would imply. But we shouldn't let reality spoil our
passing amusements)

This one's a little bit too easy, really: people who are different aren't
necessarily different in every particular aspect. An obvious commonality
between Debian contributors is that the contribute to Debian; and it's
not much of a step from there to assume there's a variety of common
things they need to be familiar with.

> You assume that people can learn as they go, but NM insists
> that applicants learn everything up front.

NM is actually a good example of how both these things can be true at
once; all the things you need to know up front before being a developer,
you can happily learn as you go through the NM process.

Another way of looking at this is that education often has two parts:
learning and testing; that NM focusses on the latter component, doesn't
mean anything for the former -- you can learn however you like, as you
go, cramming, hypnosis, you just need to realise that testing, and NM,
comes after the fact.

> If there are "easy entry points" in Debian which allow non-DDs to do the same
> work as DDs then I can see why a defender of the current NM process would
> regard those points as weaknesses in Debian's defenses, which should be closed
> rather than advertized.

As someone who thinks the current NM process is horribly bureaucratic
and broken (both in being too hard for good people, and probably actively
filtering for people who like bureaucracy), I also regard sponsorship as
a flaw in Debian's process, which should be removed and replaced. I'll
cite bugs 308877 and 306791 as random examples.

Isn't being ornery fun?

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/2005/12/07
[1] 
http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/ending_the_tyranny_of_unix_permissions-2005-12-06-19-03.html



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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Thomas Hood]

Anthony Towns:
> Anyway, the real point of replying was for me to have some fun playing
> (what I'll hereby dub) the false dichotomy game. That's where you take
> a set of contradictory statements, and setup reasonable scenarios where,
> in fact, both alternatives are true simultaneously.

I'd call it the "obscure the point game", because the pairs of statements
were meant to illustrate a difference in attitude, not a set of absolute
contradictions.  But I think you know that.  Because you are really playing
another game, which I'll dub "the innuendo game".
-- 
Thomas Hood


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> People who do not want to undergo that process can just help
>  out current developers, fix bugs, send patches, etc.

Why are you then disagreeing with Andreas when he said that we should
make the possibility of doing this more visible?

>  I am merely vocing objections to lowering the bar for people who
>  are responsible for Debian packages, and can thus run code as root
>  on my machine.

How on earth do you manage to interpret "promote the easy entry points
to contributing to debian more prominently" as "lowering the bar"?

-- 
Henning Makholm  "Wir kommen nun ans Ziel unserer Ausführungen."


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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 07:41:38PM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote:
> Anthony Towns:
> > Anyway, the real point of replying was for me to have some fun playing
> > (what I'll hereby dub) the false dichotomy game. That's where you take
> > a set of contradictory statements, and setup reasonable scenarios where,
> > in fact, both alternatives are true simultaneously.
> I'd call it the "obscure the point game", because the pairs of statements
> were meant to illustrate a difference in attitude, not a set of absolute
> contradictions. 

You can call it whatever you like. The art of compromise and consensus
building is the art of finding something that achieves apparently
conflicting goals simultaneously.

> But I think you know that.  Because you are really playing
> another game, which I'll dub "the innuendo game".

Cheers,
aj



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Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers

[Peter Samuelson]

[Roger Leigh]
> In the case of someone who attaches a patch to a bug report, I think
> getting a mention in the Debian (or upstream) ChangeLog is
> sufficient.

Indeed, back in the days when reporting a bug and attaching a patch was
all I was willing to spend time doing, I thought a mention in the
debian changelog was exactly the right amount of encouragement.


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[Listmaster] Seeking petsupermarket (was: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers)

[Cord Beermann]

Hallo! Du (Linas Zvirblis) hast geschrieben:

>>BTW, Who da hell is some AntiSpam UOL? Everytime that I send an email to
>>debian-devel that stupid machine sends me an email. Is there a way to 
>>block?
>
>Yes, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] is back. You will just have to 
>block this address on your side until listmaster takes care of this.

You might have seen the probes we send out in the last year.

Sadly it didn't work out as hoped, so i (and ${all_subscribers}-1 here)
would be thankful if anyone can provide more information about 
petsupermarket (you don't have to point out the website, i already
tried to contact all address i could find there).

Someone who is subscribed to d-devel forwards the mails to
petsupermarket. petsupermarket itself is not subscribed to any of our
mailinglists.

If you have seen those c-r-responses outside of the debian-lists, or
in the last days on other lists than debian-devel, then this
information is maybe helpful to identify the address.

We already put many hours in trying to identify this annoying member,
and this really sucks, as this time is lost for other activities or
enhancements we could do inside or outside of the Project.

Cord, wearing his black listmaster-hat and carrying a large
flamethrower.


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