Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Ian Jackson 
Matthew Wilcox writes ("Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning 
dunc-tank"):
> I'm so thoroughly disgusted by you and the actions of people like you
> that I've stopped working on Debian.  nice job, wanker.

That is the sole content of Matthew Wilcox's message to me, apart from
some quoted text from debian-private, which I have removed.

Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case the
abusive nature warrants it.

Ian.


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Frans Pop 
On Thursday 12 October 2006 12:34, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Matthew Wilcox writes ("Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning 
dunc-tank"):
> > I'm so thoroughly disgusted by you and the actions of people like you
> > that I've stopped working on Debian.  nice job, wanker.
>
> That is the sole content of Matthew Wilcox's message to me, apart from
> some quoted text from debian-private, which I have removed.
>
> Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case the
> abusive nature warrants it.

Well, if he really has stopped worked on Debian, he has a point doesn't 
he? Sorry, but I don't see why you felt the need to share this message.


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Russ Allbery 
Ian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Matthew Wilcox writes:

>> I'm so thoroughly disgusted by you and the actions of people like you
>> that I've stopped working on Debian.  nice job, wanker.

> That is the sole content of Matthew Wilcox's message to me, apart from
> some quoted text from debian-private, which I have removed.

> Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case the
> abusive nature warrants it.

Two wrongs didn't really make a right here, IMO, and I'm not talking about
publication of private e-mail.  Losing one's temper and insulting one's
colleagues in e-mail isn't okay, but neither is deciding to escalate an
already angry situation by trying to humiliate someone in public for
losing their temper.  Nothing good is going to come from that.

I daresay nearly everyone here has lost their temper from time to time.
It's a lot easier to calm down and decide that there are more constructive
ways of expressing anger if the target of the anger takes a deep breath,
de-escalates, and provides room in which to make the discussion more
productive (or at least to let people stop talking to those with whom they
have strong clashes).

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Frans Pop 
On Thursday 12 October 2006 18:50, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case
> > the abusive nature warrants it.
>
> Two wrongs didn't really make a right here, IMO, and I'm not talking
> about publication of private e-mail.  Losing one's temper and insulting
> one's colleagues in e-mail isn't okay, but neither is deciding to
> escalate an already angry situation by trying to humiliate someone in
> public for losing their temper.  Nothing good is going to come from
> that.

Yes, and quietly ignoring an emotional private mail would help to prevent 
escalating anything; certainly more than posting it on a public mailing 
list does.


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Ian Jackson 
I wrote:
> Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case the
> abusive nature warrants it.

It has been suggested that it would be better to include the context,
to avoid any potential or perceived unfairness, given that the context
was a debian-private posting by me.  So here is the whole of Matthew's
message, including the text of my message which he is objecting to:

  On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 02:17:50PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
  > So I'd like to encourage dunc-tank opponents to consider whether they
  > ought to have seconded my resolution too.  There's still time to do so
  > I think.

  I'm so thoroughly disgusted by you and the actions of people like you
  that I've stopped working on Debian.  nice job, wanker.

Apparently taking the other side in this controversy is, in Matthew's
view, a justification for vitriol.

Ian.


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Matthew Wilcox 
On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 05:34:01PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case the
> > abusive nature warrants it.

It really doesn't.  Wanker.

> It has been suggested that it would be better to include the context,
> to avoid any potential or perceived unfairness, given that the context
> was a debian-private posting by me.  So here is the whole of Matthew's
> message, including the text of my message which he is objecting to:
> 
>   On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 02:17:50PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
>   > So I'd like to encourage dunc-tank opponents to consider whether they
>   > ought to have seconded my resolution too.  There's still time to do so
>   > I think.
> 
>   I'm so thoroughly disgusted by you and the actions of people like you
>   that I've stopped working on Debian.  nice job, wanker.
> 
> Apparently taking the other side in this controversy is, in Matthew's
> view, a justification for vitriol.

Hey, Ian, you're trebly a wanker.  Thanks for confirming my decision.
I'm not going to explain my position as you'd only use it as an excuse
to debate me.  I am sick and fucking tired of the wankery coming from
the parts of the debian disorganisation who don't want anything to
change.  It makes me so fucking angry that I've decided to just stop
doing anything Debian related.

I'm tempted to propose expulsion for a whole bunch of people, except
that would involve dealing with Manoj, who I loathe.  So, in summary:

  ___
 / _|_   _  ___| | __  _   _  ___  _   _ 
| |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | | | |/ _ \| | | |
|  _| |_| | (__|   <  | |_| | (_) | |_| |
|_|  \__,_|\___|_|\_\  \__, |\___/ \__,_|
   |___/ 


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Manoj Srivastava 
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:50:27 -0700, Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> Ian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Matthew Wilcox writes:

>>> I'm so thoroughly disgusted by you and the actions of people like
>>> you that I've stopped working on Debian.  nice job, wanker.

>> That is the sole content of Matthew Wilcox's message to me, apart
>> from some quoted text from debian-private, which I have removed.

>> Normally I wouldn't publish private email but I think in this case
>> the abusive nature warrants it.

> Two wrongs didn't really make a right here, IMO, and I'm not talking
> about publication of private e-mail.  Losing one's temper and
> insulting one's colleagues in e-mail isn't okay, but neither is
> deciding to escalate an already angry situation by trying to
> humiliate someone in public for losing their temper.  Nothing good
> is going to come from that.

In my experience, turning the other cheek ends up in getting
 two smarting cheeks and little else. There has to be _some_
 disincentive for people initiating and perpetuating such overt abuse;
 some negative conditioning so that they don't spew off quite so
 unrestrainedly in the future.

Could you suggest what form this negative conditioning should
 take?

manoj
-- 
Ninety percent of everything is crap. Theodore Sturgeon
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Lack of a GR proposal explicitly condemning dunc-tank

2006-10-12 Thread Manoj Srivastava 
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:25:46 -0600, Matthew Wilcox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> I'm tempted to propose expulsion for a whole bunch of people, except
> that would involve dealing with Manoj, who I loathe.

Wow.

> So, in summary:
>   ___
>  / _|_   _  ___| | __  _   _  ___  _   _ 
> | |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | | | |/ _ \| | | |
> |  _| |_| | (__|   <  | |_| | (_) | |_| |
> |_|  \__,_|\___|_|\_\  \__, |\___/ \__,_|
>|___/ 


Wow.

> It makes me so fucking angry that I've decided to just stop doing
> anything Debian related.

Yay?

manoj
-- 
I saw Lassie.  It took me four shows to figure out why the hairy kid
never spoke. I mean, he could roll over and all that, but did that
deserve a series?
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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